Discussion and Suggestion Thread

[DonQuixote]

So, a funny thing was pointed out to me today on the way to the Roman forum.  There's nothing that stops a spellshaper who's not a spellshape champion from picking up a spellheart weapon and pretending to have spellshape channeling.  It never actually says "However, a character who possesses knowledge of other arcane formulae but does not possess the spellshape channeling class feature cannot shape those formulae through attacks with a spellheart weapon."

Said text will be added appropriately when I get to the items revision.

I thought that was intentional... I mentioned buying one of those for a dragonheart adept character several months ago specifically for that (so I could channel his spellshape attack through it while his breath weapon was recharging), and you said something like "Oh yeah, that's a cute trick". (Said character didn't yet have enough levels to channel his spellshape attacks, though dragonheart adepts do eventually get that ability.)

Huh.  Probably didn't blip on my radar since the adept eventually gets the ability to do so.

I mean, I'm not doing the item revision any time soon, so I can toss the idea around a bit.  It just feels...silly, though.  I mean, a one-level dip in spellshape champion with the correct circle selection will let you channel a spellshape attack anyway.  One level isn't much to ask, I feel.

Wasn't the ability to channel the spellshape with formulae the whole point? How else is a non-spellshaper going to use whatever formula is stored in the weapon?

Yes.  The issue is that a spellshaper who isn't a spellshape champion can use it to channel their formulae.  Note that the proposed text fix just prevents people from shaping formulae that they know from outside the weapon.

It's not necessarily a broken loophole.  Just one that itches.

[phaedrusxy]

Ah, OK, I see what you're saying... I misunderstood at first.

The spellheart weapon is intended to let characters other than spellshape champions gain the ability to channel their spellshape attacks through the weapon. It is also intended to let them channel the Formula stored in the weapon through the weapon while doing this. It is NOT intended to let them channel other Formula, that they know from sources other than the weapon, through the weapon.

Got it.


So... I think SirP asked you how you'd price a Spellheart "weapon" that was actually like an Amulet of Mighty Fists, and so let you channel your spellshape attacks through your natural weapons instead of a manufactured one. Thoughts on that?

[DonQuixote]

The spellheart weapon is intended to let characters other than spellshape champions gain the ability to channel their spellshape attacks through the weapon.

Nope:

When wielding a spellheart weapon, a character can command it to manifest its magical nature as a free action once per round, causing it to function as though it were channeling the spellshape attack associated with its imbued formula (see spellshape champion, page 24 of The Codex of Spellshaping: The Twelve Circles).  While the item's magical nature is manifested, the weapon's wielder can shape any formula imbued in the spellheart weapon as if she knew it normally and were channeling it through her attack.

It only lets you channel the spellshape attack associated with the formula imbued in the weapon.  Whether or not you know that spellshape attack.  If you know a spellshape attack other than the one associated with the formula imbued in the weapon, you cannot channel that spellshape attack through the weapon.

Clearly, I need to reword things to make them more clear.   

It is also intended to let them channel the Formula stored in the weapon through the weapon while doing this. It is NOT intended to let them channel other Formula, that they know from sources other than the weapon, through the weapon.

Got it.

Correct.  Spellheart items are intended for non-spellshapers to be able to shape a formula on a weapon attack.  It's also a sword that can be fire or whatever instead of normal damage.

So... I think SirP asked you how you'd price a Spellheart "weapon" that was actually like an Amulet of Mighty Fists, and so let you channel your spellshape attacks through your natural weapons instead of a manufactured one. Thoughts on that?

Well, I did

math

and arrived at a table of values for the thing, based on how spellheart weapons are priced in relation to normal magic weapons, then applying that logic to the amulet of mighty fists.  I sent it to him in a private message, but I can scrounge it up.  Should I just post it in the campaign OOC?

(I have the thread up in another tab.  I've been watching you, phaedrusxy.  Oh, have I been watching you.)

[sirpercival]

Formula Level		Cost
1st		7,500 gp
2nd		9,000 gp
3rd		30,000 gp
4th		33,000 gp
5th		67,500 gp
6th		73,500 gp
7th		120,000 gp
8th		132,000 gp
9th		187,500 gp

[Garryl]

See, this is one of the problems with rapid conversations. By the time I edit my post, someone's already responded.

Wasn't the ability to channel the spellshape with formulae the whole point? How else is a non-spellshaper going to use whatever formula is stored in the weapon?

Besides, I thought Spellshape Channeling (as opposed to normal spellshape attacks) was supposed to be a disadvantage for Spellshape Champions, to balance out their excellent chassis.

Edit: In fact, channeling the formula through the weapon as the ONLY way to use the formula of a Spellheart Weapon.

Er, nevermind, I see the issue. You're not stopping channeling the stored formula, you're stopping the channeling of other known formulae.

With regards to what I was saying about Spellshape Channeling seemingly being a disadvantage, is freely accessible spellshape channeling an issue? Other than level 1-3 Dragonheart Adepts, but that feels more like a failing of the class at low levels than an unfairly large benefit from the weapons.

On a related note, no love for ranged spellheart weapons and full-channeling Spellshot Marksmen? By referencing only Spellshape Channeling, it only works with melee weapons (even though spellheart weapons are not otherwise restricted).

[phaedrusxy]

The spellheart weapon is intended to let characters other than spellshape champions gain the ability to channel their spellshape attacks through the weapon.

Nope:

When wielding a spellheart weapon, a character can command it to manifest its magical nature as a free action once per round, causing it to function as though it were channeling the spellshape attack associated with its imbued formula (see spellshape champion, page 24 of The Codex of Spellshaping: The Twelve Circles).  While the item's magical nature is manifested, the weapon's wielder can shape any formula imbued in the spellheart weapon as if she knew it normally and were channeling it through her attack.

It only lets you channel the spellshape attack associated with the formula imbued in the weapon.  Whether or not you know that spellshape attack.  If you know a spellshape attack other than the one associated with the formula imbued in the weapon, you cannot channel that spellshape attack through the weapon.

Clearly, I need to reword things to make them more clear.   

Huh. So what shaper level does it use to determine the damage for the spellshape attack? Whatever the item was created at, regardless of the wielder's? Or the wielder's (since it says "as if you knew it normally")?

(I have the thread up in another tab.  I've been watching you, phaedrusxy.  Oh, have I been watching you.)

Glad I have an audience.

[DonQuixote]

See, this is one of the problems with rapid conversations. By the time I edit my post, someone's already responded.

Sorry, Garryl.  We still love you!

With regards to what I was saying about Spellshape Channeling seemingly being a disadvantage, is freely accessible spellshape channeling an issue? Other than level 1-3 Dragonheart Adepts, but that feels more like a failing of the class at low levels than an unfairly large benefit from the weapons.

It's more that part of the reason to play a spellshape champion is being the "stab you with magic" guy.  At least, that's the intent.  That you would want to play the class because you get to stab people with magic.  If people are playing spellshape champion without wanting to stab with magic, I feel that something, somewhere, has gone wrong.

(Editor's Note: "Stabbing with magic" includes all possible methods of offensive attacks, including, but not limited to, "bashing with magic," "slashing with magic," "poking with magic," "skewering with magic," "the comfy chair with magic," "gently caressing with magic," "in a box with magic," "with a fox with magic," "in a house with magic," and "with a mouse with magic.")

Since the class mainly exists to fulfill the desire for a "stab you with magic" option, I figure that it's a bit problematic to let other people do so.  Mechanically, probably not an issue.  Balance-wise, probably not an issue.  But they're the magic-stabbers, and it feels weird to just hand that out.

In terms of dragonheart adepts, it might be worth just switching them to always having that ability when I get to Appendix II.  Any real reason not to?

On a related note, no love for ranged spellheart weapons and full-channeling Spellshot Marksmen? By referencing only Spellshape Channeling, it only works with melee weapons (even though spellheart weapons are not otherwise restricted).

Oh, yeah, I should probably fix that, too.  Consider them to officially work that way.  If I can't get the wording smoothed out without referencing the spellshot marksman, I'll move them into Appendix I, but I'll still update them at the same time as the rest of the items.

Huh. So what shaper level does it use to determine the damage for the spellshape attack? Whatever the item was created at, regardless of the wielder's? Or the wielder's (since it says "as if you knew it normally")?

Did I really never--

The shaper level of a formula used from a spellheart item is equal to the minimum shaper level required to learn that formula.  If a formula from a spellheart item allows a saving throw, the DC is equal to 10 + the formula's level + the user's highest mental ability modifier or 10 + the formula's level + the item's enhancement bonus, whichever is higher.

--oh.  Guess I did.

(That isn't meant to be as sarcastic as you might read it to be.  I actually had to go check, since that's the sort of asinine thing that I'd accidentally leave out.)

[Garryl]

Formula Level		Cost
1st		7,500 gp
2nd		9,000 gp
3rd		30,000 gp
4th		33,000 gp
5th		67,500 gp
6th		73,500 gp
7th		120,000 gp
8th		132,000 gp
9th		187,500 gp

Those values seem... funky. And not the good kind. In particular, going from a 3rd-level formula to a 4th-level formula costs 4000g on a weapon, but only 3000g on the more expensive amulet?

Scratch that. ALL the spellheart item costs seem funky. If you separate things out into an enhancement bonus cost (the cost of a normal magic item with the same enhancement bonus) and a formula cost, you get the following.

Level	Weapon	Armor
1 (+1)	500 (+2000)	500 (+1000)
2 (+1)	1000 (+2000)	1000 (+1000)
3 (+2)	3000 (+8000)	1500 (+4000)
4 (+2)	7000 (+8000)	7000 (+4000)
5 (+3)	10000 (+18000)	10000 (+9000)
6 (+3)	15000 (+18000)	30000 (+9000)
7 (+4)	25000 (+32000)	25000 (+16000)
8 (+4)	32000 (+32000)	32000 (+16000)
9 (+5)	45000 (+50000)	35000 (+25000)

They're the same at levels 1, 2, 4, 5, 7, and 8. The rest of them (levels 3, 6, and 9) I can't account for except for typos and math errors (weapon 3 is 2x armor 3, armor 6 is 2x weapon 6, and weapon 9 is +10k over armor 9). The formula cost also increases inconsistently; the change between one level and the next increases and decreases erratically. IIRC, these were the same in the original warheart items.

Here's what I would suggest instead. Tweak to your liking. It's just a simple, formulaic progression. I'd probably drop it a little bit to make sure the formula component costs less than the ToB items that give you one formula at a time from a given school, but also let you change it each time you use the item (3k for up to 3rd, 15k for up to 6th, and 45k for up to 9th). Mind you, unlike those items, spellheart items don't require you to meet the prerequisites, do they? That's also a consideration.

Level	Weapon	Armor	Formula Cost (included in weapons and armor)
1 (+1)	2500	1500	500
2 (+1)	3000	2000	1000
3 (+2)	11000	7000	3000
4 (+2)	14000	10000	6000
5 (+3)	28000	19000	10000
6 (+3)	33000	24000	15000
7 (+4)	53000	37000	21000
8 (+4)	60000	44000	28000
9 (+5)	86000	51000	36000

[DonQuixote]

I'll...probably use something like that, yeah.  I can't remember the actual costing process for spellheart items, but something tells me that it involved darkness, sleep deprivation, crying, and a fervent wish for absinthe.  And I don't even drink.

[Garryl]

I'll...probably use something like that, yeah.  I can't remember the actual costing process for spellheart items, but something tells me that it involved darkness, sleep deprivation, crying, and a fervent wish for absinthe.  And I don't even drink.

Copy/paste, amirite?

[DonQuixote]

Copy/paste, amirite?

Right...but I remember being offended by the costing...and planning to change it.

Hanako!  Where's my absinthe?  And fetch me the ring and the rainstorm!

[DonQuixote]

Damn.  She's asleep.

*PitterpatterpitterpatterpitterpatterCRACKATHOOM*

...it's just not the same!

[DonQuixote]

So, uh, ignoring the insanity of my last two posts, I seem to have actually revised Devouring Shadow.

• Terrorize has been replaced with False Vitality, which gives you a number of temporary hit points equal to your shaper level.
• Infect has been switched from actual diseases to disease-like effects, defined in-formula.
• Wracking Pain has been replaced with Ward of Retribution, which forces attackers to make Fortitude saves or take damage equal to the damage they inflict upon you.
• Petrifying Gaze has been replaced with Pox, which allows you to combine two disease effects from Infect and makes them contagious.

Anything get horribly screwed up by these changes?

[Nanshork]

So, uh, ignoring the insanity of my last two posts, I seem to have actually revised Devouring Shadow.

• Terrorize has been replaced with False Vitality, which gives you a number of temporary hit points equal to your shaper level.
• Infect has been switched from actual diseases to disease-like effects, defined in-formula.
• Wracking Pain has been replaced with Ward of Retribution, which forces attackers to make Fortitude saves or take damage equal to the damage they inflict upon you.
• Petrifying Gaze has been replaced with Pox, which allows you to combine two disease effects from Infect and makes them contagious.

Anything get horribly screwed up by these changes?

As if we'd ever do that. 

I never read Devouring Shadow in depth so I can't attest the rest of your post.

[phaedrusxy]

So, uh, ignoring the insanity of my last two posts, I seem to have actually revised Devouring Shadow.

• Terrorize has been replaced with False Vitality, which gives you a number of temporary hit points equal to your shaper level.
• Infect has been switched from actual diseases to disease-like effects, defined in-formula.
• Wracking Pain has been replaced with Ward of Retribution, which forces attackers to make Fortitude saves or take damage equal to the damage they inflict upon you.
• Petrifying Gaze has been replaced with Pox, which allows you to combine two disease effects from Infect and makes them contagious.

Anything get horribly screwed up by these changes?

I will definitely look over the changes, as that's one Circle which I'd considered for my latest character, but passed on. No time for the next couple of days, though.

[DonQuixote]

As if we'd ever do that. 

It's moments like that that really prove to me that I really should post when sleep-deprived.  Unfortunately, I get my best work done then.

It's strange, though.  I could have sworn I decided to change the pricing when I imported that stuff.

I will definitely look over the changes, as that's one Circle which I'd considered for my latest character, but passed on. No time for the next couple of days, though.

No rush.  I'm having a bad week myself, so I understand how it is.

[phaedrusxy]

So, uh, ignoring the insanity of my last two posts, I seem to have actually revised Devouring Shadow.

• Terrorize has been replaced with False Vitality, which gives you a number of temporary hit points equal to your shaper level.
• Infect has been switched from actual diseases to disease-like effects, defined in-formula.
• Wracking Pain has been replaced with Ward of Retribution, which forces attackers to make Fortitude saves or take damage equal to the damage they inflict upon you.
• Petrifying Gaze has been replaced with Pox, which allows you to combine two disease effects from Infect and makes them contagious.

Anything get horribly screwed up by these changes?

I like the changes, but why are the durations on the quasi-diseases so crappy? They're minor penalties, allow a save to resist, and immunity to disease makes you immune to them. Why not make them last 24 hours or something?

[DonQuixote]

I like the changes, but why are the durations on the quasi-diseases so crappy? They're minor penalties, allow a save to resist, and immunity to disease makes you immune to them. Why not make them last 24 hours or something?

Well, it is just a swift action to add them to an attack.  That said, I don't see any reason not to bump up their durations.

I'm a bit...leery of twenty-four hours, though.  I know that later formulae give things like negative levels that last that long, but it feels weird to actually write it out.  Part of how I've been trying to balance the whole "magic at will" thing is shortening durations.  Yes, it is more or less entirely arbitrary in this case.

Would you object to 5 round and 8 round durations, rather than twenty-four hours, or does that still fall flat?

[Amechra]

Why not tie it to the ability damage?

So they keep the penalties as long as the ability damage is left, but they are removed as soon as they are removed?

[DonQuixote]

Hrm.  I...like it.  Let me toy around with it a little.