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Topics - Power

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1
If you ever needed proof that the Dunning-Kruger effect is as strong as ever at Paizo HQ, look no further than this amazing screed. Michael Sayre, a Paizo Design Manager, lends us his nuggets of wisdom on class design regarding PF and PF2E:
Quote from: Michael Sayre
An interesting anecdote from PF1 that has some bearing on how #Pathfinder2E came to be what it is:

Once upon a time, PF1 introduced a class called the arcanist. The arcanist was regarded by many to be a very strong class. The thing is, it actually wasn't.

For a player with even a modicum of system mastery, the arcanist was strictly worse than either of the classes who informed its design, the wizard and the sorcerer. The sorcerer had significantly more spells to throw around, and the wizard had both a faster spell progression and more versatility in its ability to prepare for a wide array of encounters. Both classes were strictly better than the arcanist if you knew PF1 well enough to play them to their potential.

What the arcanist had going for it was that it was extremely forgiving. It didn't require anywhere near the same level of system mastery to excel. You could make a lot more mistakes, both in building it and while playing, and still feel powerful. You could adjust your plans a lot more easily on the fly if you hadn't done a very good job planning in advance. The class's ability to elevate the player rather than requiring the player to elevate the class made it quite popular and created the general impression that it was very strong.

It was also just more fun to play, with bespoke abilities and little design flourishes that at least filled up the action economy and gave you ways to feel valuable, even if the core chassis was weaker and less able to reach the highest performance levels.

In many TTRPGs and TTRPG communities, the options that are considered "strongest" are often actually the options that are simplest. Even if a spellcaster in a game like PF1 or PF2 is actually capable of handling significantly more types and kinds of challenges more effectively, achieving that can be a difficult feat. A class that simply has the raw power to do a basic function well with a minimal amount of technical skill applied, like the fighter, will generally feel more powerful because a wider array of players can more easily access and exploit that power.

This can be compounded when you have goals that require complicating solutions. PF2 has goals of depth, customization, and balance. Compared to other games, PF1 sacrificed balance in favor of depth and customization, and 5E forgoes depth and limits customization. In attempting to hit all three goals, PF2 sets a very high and difficult bar for itself. This is further complicated by the fact that PF2 attempts to emulate the spellcasters of traditional TTRPG gaming, with tropes of deep possibility within every single character.

It's been many years and editions of multiple games since things that were actually balance points in older editions were true of d20 spellcasters. D20 TTRPG wizards, generally, have a humongous breadth of spells available to every single individual spellcaster, and their only cohesive theme is "magic". They are expected to be able to do almost anything (except heal), and even "specialists" in most fantasy TTRPGs of the last couple decades are really generalists with an extra bit of flavor and flair in the form of an extra spell slot or ability dedicated to a particular theme.

So bringing it back to balance and customization: if a character has the potential to do anything and a goal of your game is balance, it must be assumed that the character will do all those things they're capable of. Since a wizard very much can have a spell for every situation that targets every possible defense, the game has to assume they do, otherwise you cannot meet the goal of balance. Customization, on the other side, demands that the player be allowed to make other choices and not prepare to the degree that the game assumes they must, which creates striations in the player base where classes are interpreted based on a given person's preferences and ability/desire to engage with the meta of the game. It's ultimately not possible to have the same class provide both endless possibilities and a balanced experience without assuming that those possibilities are capitalized on.

So if you want the fantasy of a wizard, and want a balanced game, but also don't want to have the game force you into having to use particular strategies to succeed, how do you square the circle? I suspect the best answer is "change your idea of what the wizard must be." D20 fantasy TTRPG wizards are heavily influenced by the dominating presence of D&D and, to a significantly lesser degree, the works of Jack Vance. But Vance hasn't been a particularly popular fantasy author for several generations now, and many popular fantasy wizards don't have massively diverse bags of tricks and fire and forget spells. They often have a smaller bag of focused abilities that they get increasingly competent with, with maybe some expansions into specific new themes and abilities as they grow in power. The PF2 kineticist is an example of how limiting the theme and degree of customization of a character can lead to a more overall satisfying and accessible play experience. Modernizing the idea of what a wizard is and can do, and rebuilding to that spec, could make the class more satisfying to those who find it inaccessible.

Of course, the other side of that equation is that a notable number of people like the wizard exactly as the current trope presents it, a fact that's further complicated by people's tendency to want a specific name on the tin for their character. A kineticist isn't a satisfying "elemental wizard" to some people simply because it isn't called a wizard, and that speaks to psychology in a way that you often can't design around. You can create the field of options to give everyone what they want, but it does require drawing lines in places where some people will just never want to see the line, and that's difficult to do anything about without revisiting your core assumptions regarding balance, depth, and customization.

Source: https://twitter.com/MichaelJSayre1/status/1700183812452569261

2
D&D 3.5 and Pathfinder / [PF] Entice Fey spell line
« on: September 19, 2023, 12:41:04 PM »
Pathfinder made a Planar Ally-based spell line for calling Fey and granted it to Druids and Bards.
Quote
ENTICE FEY, LESSER
Source Ultimate Intrigue pg. 213
School conjuration (calling); Level bard 4, druid 5, hunter 4, medium 3, ranger 4, shaman 5, skald 4
CASTING
Casting Time 10 minutes
Components V, S, M (offerings worth 500 gp plus payment, see text), DF
EFFECT
Range close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Effect one called fey, with 6 Hit Dice or fewer
Duration instantaneous
Saving Throw none; Spell Resistance no
DESCRIPTION
This spell functions as lesser planar ally, except that you entice a fey of 6 HD or fewer to lend you its aid with an offering of music or something else it finds appealing. Like lesser planar ally, this spell is unpredictable, and the fey who answers the calling is up to the whims of nature and the fey, not your own choice. You must succeed at a Knowledge (nature) check or Perform check (DC = 20 + target’s HD) in addition to the spell’s material component to entice the fey into appearing, after which you can negotiate for the service and your payment. The maximum HD of fey that you can call with that casting is equal to the result of your check – 20. For example, if your check result is a 24, the maximum HD for the called fey is 4. A high result doesn’t allow you to break the HD maximum for the spell, and a result of 20 or less means you can’t call a fey at all. If the fey doesn’t like the sound of your offer, it can simply choose to refuse, in which case you don’t expend any of the material components for the spell, either the offerings or the payment.

Entice Fey reads "This spell functions as lesser entice fey, except that the spell’s whimsical calling can produce a single fey of 12 Hit Dice or less, or two fey of the same kind whose Hit Dice total no more than 12." with 1250gp offering cost and spell levels "bard 6, druid 7, shaman 7, skald 6".

Greater Entice Fey reads "This spell functions as lesser entice fey, except the spell’s whimsical calling can produce a single fey of 18 Hit Dice or less, or up to three fey of the same kind whose Hit Dice total no more than 18." with 2500gp offering cost and spell levels "druid 9, shaman 9".

Now, getting a calling spell is very handy for Druids and Bards, but there are real drawbacks on this one. Aside from needing to overcome the skill check, the list of Fey out there is not that big and you are by no means guaranteed to have Fey favorable to you answer your spell. In a way, it's a worst of both worlds spell, since Planar Binding lets you summon whatever you like, although you need to compel them into service, and Planar Ally at least has your divine helpers sent to you by your patron deity, who is obviously favorably disposed towards you. Entice Fey does none of these things, and can indeed by answered by anyone or anything that is a Fey of appropriate HD.

So, the major question here is: How do we put Entice Fey to good use?

The skill check at least isn't too difficult to overcome. While the temptation is for a Bard to use a Perform check while taking 10 to hit the DC, a Bard can also easily overcome it by using Lore Master and Bardic Knowledge to take 20 and add half his Bard level to the check (or even using the Pageant of the Peacock masterpiece to substitute a Bluff check with a +4 bonus for it), so even if he substituted out Versatile Performance, he can still hit it no problem. Everyone who can cast Entice Fey can also cast Tears to Wine for an easy, large bonus to the Knowledge check in question and Druids get a +2 bonus to Knowledge (Nature) checks. Put ranks in Knowledge (Nature) and anyone will make the checks by taking 10.

But when it comes to the Fey you are calling, we really need to put a finger on the scales somehow. One thing that occurs to me is that since it functions as lesser planar ally, "if you know an individual creature's name, you may request that individual by speaking the name during the spell (though you might get a different creature anyway)." That means that any Fey we are friends with is going to be callable and favorably disposed towards us. With a Fey Gate (or Plane Shift or Gate) spell, presumably we can go over and make friends there, although that'll be an adventure. The upshot of it is getting allies in the form of callable fey. Another point is that if you worship one of the Eldest (in the Golarion setting), probably you can get high-ranking fey associated with them to show up, making the spell function a bit more favorably. That would probably work best if you are actively working for one of the Eldest, rather than just a worshiper.

We do get one more advantage with Entice Fey. Planar Ally stipulates that "few if any creatures will accept a task that seems suicidal (remember a called creature actually dies when it is killed, unlike a summoned creature)." However, Entice Fey overcomes this by sheer dint of the fact that we are calling Fey, who in the Golarion setting, will typically return to life in the First World whenever they die, as a general rule (there are exceptions, and they are mainly carved out for use of the First World Creature template). Most fey also regard death as a curiosity, owing to their immortality on the First World. As such, most fey are not afraid of suicidal ventures.

3
I thought we needed a thread about more silliness.

The first stunt that comes to mind is making Limited Wish and Wish pay for themselves:
  • Limited Wish costs 1,500gp in diamond and can duplicate a spell with a component cost of up to 1,000 gp without paying component cost. Wish costs 25,000gp in diamond and can duplicate a spell with a component cost of up to 10,000 gp without paying component cost.
  • Fabricate happens to treat the raw materials it uses to Fabricate into new objects as a component cost.
  • Crafting an object only consumes 1/3rd its final price in raw material.
  • Therefore, use Limited Wish to duplicate a Fabricate using 1k gp's worth of very rough raw diamond to produce 3k gp's worth of perfectly cut diamond, making a Craft (jewelry) check (DC20 as a "superior item") appropriately. Similarly, Wish can make 30k gp of diamond by letting you cast a 10k gp Fabricate.
And just like that, your Limited Wish and Wish spells are producing their own spell components at a profit. Cast 1 Limited Wish and make spell components sufficient for 2 Limited Wishes. Cast Wish 5 times and you get enough surplus diamond for a 6th Wish free. You might have to merge the 5 5k gp diamonds into 1 with a regular Fabricate spellcast, though.

Another well-known stunt is taking advantage of how these spells duplicate other spells as a standard action. The famous example is using Limited Wish to duplicate Geas as a standard action, creating a No Save lose effect.

Then there is using discounted spells. Miracle, when copying spells off of the Summoner, Bard, etc. spell lists, can cast all kinds of high-level Wizard spells that are not otherwise available to Miracle. You can do the same with Limited Wish and Wish to cast a few higher-level spells than it can copy off of full caster lists. Bear in mind there is no restriction that you must duplicate spells only from class's default spell lists. If there is an archetype, domain, feat, deity-worship, or whatever that grants a spell at a discounted level, that means the spell exists in a lower level version and is, as such, eligible for duplication.

And on that note, you can use Limited Wish to duplicate a spell effect sufficiently for a Ring of Spell Knowledge by providing you an arcane version of whatever esoteric spell you desire (every spell has an arcane form courtesy of Loremaster PrC's Secret of Magical Discipline feat, let alone the Spell Sage Wizard or Skald's Spell Kenning). With a freeform Limited Wish, you can probably just directly impart knowledge of the spell effect into your Ring of Spell Knowledge. The #1 trick that comes to mind here is using it to give yourself Alchemical Allocation (incidentally, the Antiquarian Investigator casts the Alchemist/Investigator list as arcane spells). But you can also use this to get discounted spells in your Ring of Spell Knowledge. Remember that if you UMD the Ring of Spell Knowledge, you can get it to treat a spell as being on your class list, bypassing any spell level penalties.

Giving yourself templates. This one is a classic, especially if you are getting your Wish granted by a fey, genie, or devil. If you use Miracle or Wish with the full 25k gp component, probably you can get a template as a free-form request/wish, within reason.

Making spells/items undispellable without Miracle/Wish. The ultimate in anti-dispel shields. It stands to reason that if certain effects can only be undone with Miracle or Wish, you can also use Miracle or Wish to make certain effects immune to dispel or any other removal unless the enemy uses a Miracle or Wish.

Request anything in line with your deity's precepts. This is a Miracle stunt, but if you have a request in mind that seems poised to fulfill your deity's ethos or is otherwise strongly under their portfolio or something that they would do, you can probably swing a Miracle for it. A Cleric of Abadar can buy, sell, or rent just about anything from their deity with a Miracle (admittedly you could also just Plane Shift to Aktun). A Cleric of Cayden Cailean can probably get an entire city drunk and disorderly. And so on.

Then there is Occult Rituals.
  • The first idea is to use a freeform Limited Wish, Wish, or Miracle to grant yourself knowledge of an occult ritual bypassing standard research rules. This can save quite a bit of time and avoid annoying int checks. On that note, though, you can probably use a freeform Limited Wish just to give yourself a huge bonus on the int check to research a ritual and make it pretty much auto-pass. Of course, you can also just use backstory research while taking 20 on the ability check (you can take 20 on ability checks, just like skill checks) and start a campaign with the appropriate ritual knowledge.
  • But we can do better. You see, Pathfinder explicitly counts Occult Rituals as a "form of spellcasting." Haunted Communion even refers to itself as a spell. By this token, Limited Wish can duplicate any ritual effect level 5 or lower and Miracle/Wish can duplicate any ritual level 7 or lower. Even if your GM were to declare that they shouldn't be counted as spells, Limited Wish and Miracle both explicitly allow you to "produce any other effect whose power level is in line with the above effects" (said above effects including duplicating spell effects), so Rituals, as an effect whose power level is in line with spells, are duplicable regardless. Wish does not explicitly detail that capability, but allows for freeform wishes that have even greater effect than the detailed list, so duplicating an effect in line with the above should be perfectly viable. This opens up some rather fun options without having to undergo the standard ritual research, preparation, or skill check requirements, since you duplicate the effects instantly.

Anyone have ideas for more stunts? Let's get the ball rolling.

4
Board Business / Handbook Discussion, what to do?
« on: March 19, 2023, 10:39:15 AM »
We've gone back and forth on this situation a bit, and right now everyone can post in the Handbooks forum without a Handbook Discussion thread, but that was based on people being able to post (Continued) into thread titles and having those posts be moved to the top of the thread. But that functionality (if it wasn't done manually) is no longer present. So where do we go from here? Do we try to ensure OPs can add new posts to the top of a handbook or do we move back to dedicated handbook discussion threads? It seems like we may as well go back to the dedicated discussion thread system, which a lot of people have come to expect by now.

I'm asking because I'm contemplating writing some new handbooks.

5
D&D 3.5 and Pathfinder / [PF] Evergreen Seed Pouch
« on: March 14, 2023, 02:27:38 PM »
So, there is an under-the-radar item for Druids, Hunters, and Rangers in Pathfinder:
Quote
EVERGREEN SEED POUCH
Price 16,000 gp; Slot none; CL 9th; Weight ½ lb; Aura moderate conjuration
Source Daughters of Fury pg. 59

This leather pouch is decorated with fresh mistletoe and sprigs of holly that are shaped to resemble the druidic symbol of the Green Faith. The pouch contains seeds of various small plants and grasses. When the pouch is used as a divine focus component for a spell that affects or creates plant matter—such as entangle or spike growth—its magic manifests as the pouch opens and the seeds float out. The seeds plant themselves in the ground and instantly grow to create any vegetation or grass that the spell requires to function inside of the spell’s area of effect. The vegetation created by the pouch grows regardless of the terrain, and lasts the full duration of the spell, allowing the user to cast plant-altering or plant-creating spells in deserts, badlands, and other harsh terrains.

CONSTRUCTION REQUIREMENTS
Cost 8,000 gp
Craft Wondrous Item, wall of thorns
The original design call is here. It's pretty much identical, but also mentions it can be embroidered with holy symbols of nature gods while this one mentions it just represents the symbol of the green faith. The main thing that is suggested is that this does specifically act as a Druid's divine focus. It doesn't seem to act like a Cleric's divine focus, but there is an open question whether you can use it as an additional divine focus. It is very clear that you can use it with arcane spells if you have the False Focus feat, which is relevant for Skalds and Magaambyan Arcanists, at least. The feat's "Normal: A divine focus has no effect when used as a component in arcane spells." clause also suggests that you can always use a divine focus as part of casting; it just typically doesn't do anything. This is relevant, because not all Druid plant-based spells require a divine focus and the Evergreen Seed Pouch is a useful item for some such spells. But you may want to run that by your GM to be safe.

While Entangle and Spike Growth are already mentioned (and you can enable Entangle with the use of Create Water and Lily Pad Stride easily enough), Plant Growth also stands out as a really good spell to use with this. Pathfinder nerfed Solid Fog from its 3.5 era version but Plant Growth has actually been buffed compared to its 3.5E counterpart, if anything (it now grants +4 to DCs of plant-based spell effects in the area for 1 day).

Anyway, thoughts and ideas?

6
There is an automatic warning against posting in threads that haven't been posted in for 120 days. I'm pretty sure we don't have any such actual rule and all it's going to do is discourage people from posting on what is already a low activity forum. Does anyone disagree?

7
So, I've found a neat way to use the Eternal Potion discovery with spells above 3rd level and as a Wizard to boot.

This requires a complete build:
  • Get 19 levels, going Alchemist 4 / Wizard 1 / Brewkeeper 1 (advancing Wizard) / Thuvian Alchemist 3 (advancing Wizard) / Evangelist 10 (advancing Thuvian Alchemist)
  • Make sure to get Favored Prestige Class (Brewkeeper) and Prestigious Spellcaster to cover the dead level in Brewkeeper and the Esoteric Training guild boon from Inner Sea Magic (pg 22) to give yourself +3 caster levels (up to a limit of your HD), including spellcasting progression, to your Wizard. Now you get 9th level spells at level 19.
  • Get the Extend Potion discovery for the prereq using your alchemist or Thuvian Alchemist levels and at level 19 take the Extra Discovery feat and get the Eternal Potion alchemist discovery, since you now have an effective alchemist level of 16 through the combination of Alchemist levels and Thuvian Alchemist levels.
  • Create a draught of  using Brewkeeper 1's Distilled Spells ability. Note that only Alchemist extracts function as if enhanced by the Infusion discovery. Spellcasting converted into a draught does not carry this mechanic and instead requires you to be able to make a potion or oil of that spell otherwise if it didn't have the level limit and explicitly "functions as a potion or oil." This allows us to use our draught with the Eternal Potion discovery for a permanent duration spellcast.
  • Drink the draught and apply the Eternal Potion discovery.
Yep, permanent duration spells.

I'd recommend the Mindchemist archetype for the Alchemist. As for your 20th level after this, I recommend you take Loremaster and use your monster int bonus at this point to immediately unlock a bonus feat for the monstrously powerful Secret of Magical Discipline feat. If you are playing a Half-Elf you can also Paragon Surge for an extra Secret of Magical Discipline use. At that stage, at level 20, you would have permanent Time Stop (or permanent duration anything else if you prefer) and able to cast all the spells in the game (except Fey Boon or Fey Blight, which have no spell level). So your lvl20 build should be looking like this: Mindchemist Alchemist 4 / Wizard 1 / Brewkeeper 1 / Thuvian Alchemist 3 / Evangelist 10 / Loremaster 1

It's also possible to just be a straight lvl16 Alchemist and have someone else with the Brewkeeper prestige class (like a cohort through the Leadership feat) give you a draught of whatever you want, but I'm trying to do it all in 1 character here. You can also forgo Evangelist and just be Alchemist 6 / Wizard 1 / Thuvian Alchemist 10 / Brewkeeper 1 but you only get 9th level spells at level 20 assuming you have Esoteric Training and Prestigious Spellcaster (which you get ahead of time). But this route does give you Loremaster 1 at level 19 which lets you get both the bonus feat secret and a regular feat giving you 2x Secret of Magical Discipline and you can still dip another PrC at level 20 (probably Cyphermage 1 for Insightful Scroll using a Corset of Delicate Moves). This variation is better at level 20 but doesn't have 9th level spells at level 19 so take your pick.

8
You Break it You Buy it / [PF] Infinite Time Stop
« on: January 01, 2023, 05:08:42 PM »
Does anyone else have more ways to pull an infinite Time Stop off? I've got two so far.

METHOD ONE:
We'll start with the most basic one.Simple and effective. Go rest up and recover spell slots, unless you're a divine spellcaster who needs a specific time of day to recharge spells, but then you can use 2 9th level Pearls of Power or Runestones of Power with your infinite time to recharge everything. Simple and potent. As a bonus point lifespan doesn't matter inside a timeless demiplane either and while normally the difference in time between your timeless plane and the outer world makes you age to death, here it wouldn't because no time passes by. With some means of applying Extend Spell (Magical Lineage magic trait, Runekeeper PrC, Greater Metamagic Rod of Extend Spell, etc.) and infinite magic you can probably also use a fresh Time Stop to hop outside your demiplane for a turn or two, do something, hop back in, and refresh. You can also use the timeless plane for unending Paragon Surge to get any of the item crafting feats to craft all the magic items you want while you're at it.

METHOD TWO:
Also pretty easy, but requires 10 mythic tiers:And that's about the size of it. You can't rest but you still recover everything that recovers every day without rest. The only issue here, provided you fulfill the prerequisite, is to avoid aging to death. Presumably you have a Miracle or Wish up your sleeves to give yourself a Cyclic Reincarnation or something (or perhaps you just have Cyclic Reincarnation) while you convert infinite time into infinite money. You can also bring up to 5 other people into the Time Stop with you.

9
D&D 3.5 and Pathfinder / [PF] Kitsune Star Gems
« on: December 10, 2022, 04:12:16 PM »
Guys, it's time to talk about a fun and PFS legal crazy item dating all the way back to the Advanced Race Guide, the Kitsune Star Gem:
Quote
KITSUNE STAR GEM
Price 750 gp (1st), 3,000 gp (2nd), 6,750 gp (3rd); Slot none; CL 1st (1st), 3rd (2nd), or 5th (3rd); Weight -; Aura faint transmutation
Source Advanced Race Guide pg. 193

This magical jewel glows like faerie fire, shedding light as a candle. It acts as pearl of power, except it only allows a kitsune to recover a spent use of a spell-like ability of the appropriate spell level.

CONSTRUCTION REQUIREMENTS
Cost 375 gp (1st), 1,500 gp (2nd), or 3,375 gp (3rd)
Craft Wondrous Item, creator must be a kitsune
:twitch Okay, so it's an extra-cheap Pearl of Power for SLAs of 1st to 3rd level. Notice that it does not require this to be a racial SLA or a SLA from racial feats. Any SLA is fine, so long as it is between 1st to 3rd level. Moreover, you are only 1 DC25 UMD check away from counting as a Kitsune for the purposes of activating a magic item (see here), so the racial prerequisite is a nonissue. :lol

Now, according to a June 2011 FAQ, unique SLAs granted by spellcasting classes have spell levels equal to the highest level spell a character of that class would've been able to cast at the level when they first gain that SLA (for example, 1st level Sorcerer bloodline SLAs, which you can get through Eldritch Heritage, are 1st level spells, as are 1st level Cleric domain SLAs, which you can get through Believer's Boon). So, clearly we need to have a proper thread dedicated to hashing out the silliness possible with this spell.

Some classic stunts with this include playing an Aasimar with the Heavenly Radiance feat where you can recharge your Daylight spell-like ability and expend its use to get a Sunbeam or something, but there's no real impetus to do that, especially as you will have enough daily uses by the time you can use it to make Sunbeam anyway. You can similarly use it with the Shadow's Embrace feat to make the Shadowdancer's Shadow Illusion (a Silent Image SLA) give the benefits of Darkness instead for a cheap way to get more Darkness castings, but that's not too impressive either.

One of the more basic uses of this is to get a single use of Divine Favor (Student of Sulunai, Minor Miracle, Pantheistic Blessing, Faith Singer Bard) and give yourself extra daily uses. Similarly, Haagenti's 1st Sentinel boon from Fiendish Obedience (can also be obtained with Damned Soldier instead of the PrC, giving you the SLA at 12, and there aren't even any alignment prereqs, which is extra fun because Haagenti masquerades as a rather helpful inventor so you can work a story for a non-evil worshiper quite easily) gives 2/day Alchemical Allocation as a SLA, which is extremely useful and easily worth getting more daily uses out of with 2nd-level Kitsune Star Gems.

When it comes to spells, pretty much every 1st level spell can be obtained as a spell-like ability by using the Minor Spell Expertise or Spell Hex feats. The Spell Hex feat has it better as it can be used to copy spells with expensive material and focus components, has a far superior DC, and can be combined with hex-boosting options, like feats and rods, providing you stunts like the Split Hex feat to target two enemies with 1 casting and the Rod of Potent Hexes to double its damage dealt. There is even the ludicrously expensive Rod of Abrupt Hexes (a plain Lesser Metamagic Rod of Quicken Spell is less than half the price of that) for a way to obtain swift action hexing.

For SLAs of 2nd or 3rd level, the Major Spell Expertise feat also works (but if you have 9th level spells, probably stunting around with Kitsune Star Gems is not where it's at for improving your character power) and the Exalted prestige class obtains an entire domain as spell-like abilities (as does the Faith Singer Bard, but only up to 5th level). The various Obedience boons can also be used to get various SLAs of 1st to 3rd level, which means that the various Obedience prestige classes can get a fair bit better for a lot of deities by using Kitsune Star Gems to boost SLA uses. By the way, remember that unless an exception is specifically detailed, a SLA will use charisma-based DCs, even if you are not a cha-based caster.

Since this is a SLA focused build, it is worth keeping in mind ways to make your SLAs do more for you. The following feats will let you apply metamagics to SLAs in limited fashion:
These are regarded as Monster feats (as is the Ability Focus feat that gives +2 to DC) by way of a rather dubious FAQ retcon which didn't like the new feats added in Pathfinder RPG Bestiary and insisted they were only for monsters despite the Bestiary throwing Craft Construct in the middle of those feats and never making any caveat that some of these feats are not available for player usage, and later the Horror Adventures book was used to cement the retcon FAQratta as if it were always the rule. Regardless, players can still take them "with GM permission" even according to Horror Adventures, so it rather sounds like a raging case of someone not liking what options the Bestiary added and trying to ban/undo it with yet another dubious "clarification" so as to effectively obtain an errata without writing one. I think it was actually primarily one of those many Monk-hating FAQrattas earlier in PF's run, back when Jason Bulmahn (and Sean K Reynolds) were going on about how they don't like Monks and haven't figured out the Monk's role yet but did know they weren't supposed to be good damage dealers (ie. Monks, a dedicated mundane combat class, should be a waste of space because their bonus feats, three good saves, and wis to AC are so amazing, but meanwhile they had no problem with Paladins getting giant saves, self-healing, giant damage-dealing buffs, and more, so basically this was about class favoritism, not any form of balance) so that Monks could be banned from taking Improved Natural Attack to enhance their unarmed strike or Ability Focus to enhance their Stunning Fist (which are largely considered must-have feats for the class), along with FAQratta nerfing (followed by fullblown errata) brass knuckles, cestus, gauntlets, etc. from functioning like unarmed strikes (as their text indicates) every single time so that Monks couldn't use them to obtain enchanted fists without AoMF. Didn't stop yet another such item, handwraps, from being printed in 2018 though, but that was after they had finally largely stopped trying to keep Monks from being useful, and they still PFS banned that one.

Aside from the above, it is also possible to get SLAs off with weapon attacks by using the Conductive and Spell Storing weapon properties. When it comes to SLAs you might take advantage of that way, 1st level Sorcerer bloodline powers are an easy pick, and if you are using them incessantly with Conductive and Spell Storing weapons the appeal of carrying a bunch of 1st level Kitsune Star Gems to give you massive amounts of uses is pretty straightforward.

Anyway, made a dedicated thread, so by all means feel free to weigh in and post some ideas.

10
So here's an old and rather well-known infinite attack loop I thought I may as well document in the forum:

Get a quickdraw shield (which can be equipped as a free action if you have Quick Draw) with the throwing property (which allows you to unequip and throw the shield as a free action), get the Quick Draw feat, and use either Ricochet Toss (use Martial Focus if you do not have the Weapon Training feature) or a Blinkback Belt. In essence you throw, draw, equip, and throw again, ad infinitum, using only free actions.

11
You Break it You Buy it / [PF] A very simple infinite Limited Wish loop
« on: September 16, 2022, 09:39:34 AM »
Take a Bard, Skald, or Argent Dramaturge with the Music Beyond the Spheres masterpiece, use the Limited Wish to obtain a Shadowbard spell, and command the Shadowbard to start a new Music Beyond the Spheres masterpiece performance each round, creating more Shadowbards as each runs out.

12
D&D 3.5 and Pathfinder / [PF] Untrained Skill Optimization
« on: May 18, 2022, 08:39:54 AM »
Wondering if anyone can help out there. How high can you push untrained skillchecks in PF? If you're a Human, you can take Fast Learner (prereq), Improvisation, and Improved Improvisation to get +4 to all untrained skillchecks and be able to do every skillcheck untrained. The Evangelist prestige class also lends you a +4 bonus to untrained skillchecks (but does not allow you to make all skillchecks untrained). The combination of the PrC and feats (which will put you down 4 feats total) will let you make any skillcheck untrained with a +8 bonus.

The Worldly social trait lets you roll twice and take the best result on any untrained skillcheck 1/day (but it's inferior to the Inspired faith trait which lets you roll twice and take the best result on any skill or ability check).

General spell buffs:
One-off bonuses:

Seems like you can get at least a solid +10 to all untrained skillchecks pretty easily between Heroism, Improved Improvisation, and Evangelist.

Does anyone know of anything else that buffs untrained skillchecks specifically or broad categories of skillchecks?

13
D&D 3.5 and Pathfinder / The Pathfinder Ubercharger
« on: April 09, 2022, 05:53:32 PM »
May as well mention these stunts now:

Take a lance, which does double damage while charging with a mount (3x with Spirited Charge) and make it a +1 throwing lance, which lets you apply the Named Bullet spell since our lance is now a thrown weapon (maybe using Ascendant Spell at high levels for the extra crit multiplier, and if you are buffing pre-combat, using Sure Casting and Piercing Spell metamagic is probably a decent way to make spell resistance irrelevant), and use the Charging Hurler feat so that you can throw the lance as part of a charge. Probably a Belt of Mighty Hurling would do good too.

Now the lance is a ranged touch attack to hit the target that is an automatic critical threat, for an easy guaranteed 9x damage (12x with Ascendant Spell on Named Bullet) and a 3x damage on your named bullet damage (9x if it was a nat 20 roll).

Clearly this isn't enough for us, so we should get pounce somehow (4 levels of Weretouched Shifter or 11 levels of Barbarian with greater beast totem rage power), obtain Ricochet Toss (use Martial Focus if not a Fighter) or use a Blinkback Belt (2H weapons like lances do not fit in the belt), and throw the lance iteratively because the FAQ only prohibits getting the lance multiplier on iterative pounce attacks on the rather reasonable basis that you are aborting your momentum while collecting iteratives with a lance attack, but that means as a thrown lance attack you are still charging towards your enemy while making iteratives so maintaining charge momentum on your follow-up attacks is not a problem. Moreover, we can use Two-Weapon Fighting to throw a lance with each limb, so if we play a Kasatha race character (with 4 arms) and take Multiweapon Fighting, we can throw 4 +1 throwing named bullet lances with a pounce for 9x damage each before we even consider what we do with our remaining iteratives, haste, Rapid Shot, etc.

Anyway, I guess an 11th level character doing this sort of thing will get 10 lance attacks, 4 of which are basically auto-crit. That's pretty good, but if we add a Cyclops Helm we can make it 5 auto-crits, which is better. If we get multiple cyclops helms we can just put on a fresh helm after each combat, which is pretty nice too. And considering these are all ranged attacks, we don't need to target the same foe with every lance attack, so probably we can clear out an entire encounter in one charge.

Of course, once you use a Cyclops Helm I'd be remiss to not note that you can just auto-kill enemies with a +1 heart-piercing bow (or arrow, for 1/50th the price) or +1 vorpal weapon and declaring your die roll to be a 20 for a no roll instakill.

14
D&D 3.5 and Pathfinder / [PF] Catatonia spell
« on: March 21, 2022, 03:27:38 PM »
So, Paizo printed a spell that allows you to target creatures as if they were objects:

Quote
CATATONIA
Source Occult Adventures pg. 161
School necromancy; Level alchemist 2, arcanist 3, bard 2, cleric 3, investigator 2, medium 2, mesmerist 2, oracle 3, psychic 3, skald 2, sorcerer 3, spiritualist 2, warpriest 3, witch 3, wizard 3
CASTING
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components S
EFFECT
Range touch
Target willing creature touched
Duration 1 hour/level (D)
Saving Throw none; Spell Resistance yes
DESCRIPTION
You touch the target and place it into a deathlike state that persists for the duration. The target appears to be dead, and any creature that interacts with the target must succeed at a DC 20 Heal check to recognize it is actually alive.

Until the spell ends, the target counts as if it were dead for the purpose of resolving any effects that target or affect only living creatures, but it doesn’t count as undead. The subject is helpless, and can still be killed normally.

Any effect that would bring the creature back to life or animate it as an undead fails, but ends the catatonia. The target can be affected by spells that affect only objects, including animate objects (if the creature is Small) and teleport object. However, anything that would cause the body to change form (such as shrink item) fails and ends the catatonia. This doesn’t prevent the effects of spells that simply deal damage or otherwise destroy objects.

I'm wondering how we can go about taking advantage of that?

Right now all I can think of are permanent Invisibility and Obscure Object. It seems you can use it with Mending cantrip spam to fully heal someone, provided you first polymorph them into a small or tiny shape (Reduce Person works wonders), then cast Catatonia, then spam Mending?

15
So here's a crazy combo, which requires a 3 character lineup. It gives infinite standard actions and spells in 1 turn (also infinite ki, rage, arcane pool, channel energy, bardic performance, extracts, grit, and smite evil, if you want), to be distributed at your leisure to an infinite amount of targets. Obtaining infinite resources requires build setup for the person in question, but infinite actions can be handed out to anyone without any requirements on their part.

First, we start with our Sensei Monk of the Four Winds. A Monk of the Four Winds at 12th level gets the following ability.:
Quote from: Monk of the Four Winds
Slow Time (Su): At 12th level, a monk of the four winds can use his ki to slow time or quicken his movements, depending on the observer. As a swift action, the monk can expend 6 ki points to gain three standard actions during his turn instead of just one. The monk can use these actions to do the following: take a melee attack action, use a skill, use an extraordinary ability, or take a move action. The monk cannot use these actions to cast spells or use spell-like abilities, and cannot combine them to take full-attack actions. Any move actions the monk makes this turn do not provoke attacks of opportunity. This ability replaces abundant step.
That lets him convert a swift (and his standard) action into obtaining 3 limited standard actions. It does cost 6 ki points though, although we could reduce it with one or more Rings of Ki Mastery. A Monk can equip 5 of them with 2 ring slots, 1 Hand of Glory necklace, and 2 Ten-Ring Swords and still be able to flurry with unarmed strikes (or the ten-ring swords, which are in fact monk weapons), which would reduce the ki cost to 1, but we shouldn't need that much reduction anyway.

At any rate, we can tweak this ability by combining this archetype with the compatible Sensei archetype, which gets the following ability:
Quote from: Sensei Monk
Mystic Wisdom (Su): At 6th level, a sensei may use his advice ability when spending points from his ki pool to activate a class ability (using the normal actions required for each) in order to have that ability affect one ally within 30 feet rather than the sensei himself. At 10th level, a sensei may affect all allies within 30 feet rather than himself (spending points from his ki pool only once, not once for each target).

At 10th level, a sensei may instead spend 1 point from his ki pool (as a swift action) while using advice to provide a single ally within 30 feet with evasion, fast movement, high jump, purity of body, or slow fall. At 14th level, a sensei may spend 2 points to grant one of the abilities listed above to all allies within 30 feet, or diamond body, diamond soul, or improved evasion to a single ally within 30 feet. These abilities function at the sensei’s level and last 1 round. This ability replaces the bonus feats at 6th, 10th, and 14th level.
Seeing as the Monk needs 12th level for Slow Time, he will always give Slow Time to all allies in 30 feet, which is good stuff.

This brings us to our friendly friend, the Constable Cavalier, who gets this ability:
Quote
Instant Order (Ex): At 11th level, a constable can bark an order to an ally within 30 feet as a standard action. That ally can instantly take a single move or standard action to comply with the order. Taking the action dazes the ally for 1 round afterward. At 20th level, the constable can use this ability as a move action, but no more than once per round. This ability replaces mighty charge and supreme charge.
Our Cavalier is not yet 20th level, so he can use this ability as many times as he has standard actions. And as this is an extraordinary ability, he can use this with the 3 bonus standard actions he gets from Slow Time. So long as he orders the Monk once, the Monk gets an extra standard action, which he can convert into a swift action (by using a "Ready An Action" - which is a standard action - to ready a swift action (which is explicitly a valid option for readying actions) to go off immediately), letting him use Slow Time again. The constable still has 2 more standard actions to inspire someone else with.

This brings us to our third friend, the Irori-worshiping Cleric with either 1 level of Pathfinder Field Agent for the Ki Pool Rogue Talent or the Perfect Style feat, who also happens to have the Ki Channel feat, which lets a Cleric heal people for Ki points equal to their positive energy dice instead of healing their health (8d6 at class level 17, +2d6 with a Phylactery of Positive Channeling), which covers multiple uses of Slow Time easily enough. We use a single level of Veiled Illusionist to add Greater Shadow Conjuration to the Cleric spell list. If the Cleric has 17th level casting (ie a 17th level char with Perfect Style, or 18 with the Field Agent dip, but we can subtract 2 levels if we use a Candle of Invocation to be treated as 2 levels higher). We use Greater Shadow Conjuration to get Major Creation as a standard action, which we will use to create a giant volume of Tea of Transference (which is conveniently nonmagical and comprised of vegetable matter (spirit of wine), crystal (realgar), and precious metal (gold)), making the DC 20 Craft (Alchemy) (or a suitable Profession check, if the GM allows) check, which at this point with just raw ranks cannot be failed on a 1 anyway. Naturally, we will voluntarily fail our saving throw against our Greater Shadow Conjuration. After that we pick up a cup of tea with a move action, drink it with a standard action, and get another channel energy or restore any depleted spell slot of 7th level or lower (which gives us infinite spellcasting too).

The exact action loop would probably be something like: Monk burns through 2x Slow Time using his own swift and standard action (maybe use a Corset of Delicate Moves for the 2nd Slow Time using up his move action), giving us 6x Instant Order actions and 6x Slow Time actions on the Monk and Cleric, which leaves us with our Constable reserving 1x Instant Order for another Slow Time, and 5x to be used as we will. Cleric uses 1 Instant Order to create a lot of cups' worth of tea (down to 4 Instant Orders), then uses a move action to take a cup of tea (as this is a move action, this does not use a constable action, but uses one of the 6 Slow Time actions that the Cleric gets, which are now down to 5), then uses another Instant Order action (to sidestep any debate on whether or not drinking the tea and transferring the ki point to restore a channel or spell counts as an extraordinary action) to restore the Greater Shadow Conjuration (down to 3 Instant Orders), uses a Ki Channel (down to 2 Instant Orders) to restore enough ki for 2 Slow Time actions (assuming only 1 Ring of Ki Mastery is used) as well as restore his own ki pool to full, takes another cup of tea (Cleric is down to 4 Slow Time actions), drinks it to restore Channel Energy (down to 1 Instant Order). That leaves us with 4 Slow Time actions on the Cleric, 6 Slow Time actions on the Monk, 6 Slow Time actions on anyone else the monk chose to pump, and 1 Instant Order remaining, which can be used for another Slow Time, resetting the loop, only we don't need to cast Greater Shadow Conjuration and restore the slot every loop, which saves us 2 instant orders (and 1 slow time action), which we can spend at our leisure to give anyone extra standard actions.

And now we have a whole party with infinite actions and a Cleric with infinite spellcasting.

Incidentally, if the dazed condition inflicted by the Constable proves to be a problem, you can always replace the Constable with a Dawnflower Dervish Bard (or any class, really) prestiged into 9 levels of Pathfinder Chronicler UMDing a scroll of Shadowbard, which he will direct with move actions from Slow Time to Inspire Action on anyone (alternatively the Bard can use his own move actions to Inspire Action, but then we'll need to use Perfect Style, 2 levels of Ninja, or the Negotiator or Archeologist Bard archetype for the ki pool rogue talent, and make our Chronicler drink tea for rounds of Bardic Performance too), since using the Slow Time standard action to take a move action is a separate option from using an extraordinary ability, and these are indeed move actions. Incidentally, if our Chronicler is a tea-drinker too, then if he worships Tsukiyo and uses Deific Obedience with Diverse Obedience, he can get a Smite Evil (from the 2nd Sentinel boon) which he can replenish for infinite smite evil uses. That's honestly irrelevant when you have infinite attacks and actions before the rest of the world ever gets a turn but hey.

16
General D&D Discussion / What are the real party roles of D&D?
« on: March 01, 2022, 04:05:05 PM »
When you ask about party roles, people often operate in terms of a stupid Fighter/Wizard/Cleric/Thief dichotomy, but we all know there are tons of parties that use different lineups that work just fine. I'm wondering what the real party roles of the game are, and probably we should split it into combat and non-combat party roles.

One thing that occurs to me, for instance, is that Tank is not a real party role. This is because D&D is not a MMORPG and there is no real aggro mechanic to force enemies to attack you (unless we're counting Mass Suggestion, perhaps), so unless your GM is stupidly accommodating by making enemies attack whoever is insulting them at the moment instead of acting like the intelligent beings they are supposed to be, the idea of stacking survival and expecting enemies to just focus their efforts on attacking you does not really exist. What does exist, however, is the front-liner role, which sums up what keeping your party members from harm (as a martial class) is really about much more effectively. Being a front-liner really consists of two parts: (1) standing in front and (2) making it a pain in the ass for enemies to get past you and reach your allies behind you.

So what would we say are the real party roles of D&D, exactly?

17
BACKGROUND INFO:

So, Pathfinder decided to redo its Demonic Obedience into Fiendish Obedience (and sometimes into Deific Obedience) and gave a lot of demon lords extra sets of powers for worshiping them. The new Evangelist and Sentinel boons can be obtained through Damned Disciple and Damned Soldier feats, as well as through the Demoniac/Souldrinker/Diabolist prestige classes, which all let you choose which set of boons you want. Incidentally, Diabolist has been massively nerfed (Imp companion has been destroyed, 1st level no longer advances spellcasting, and now requires LE instead of LN, LE, or NE) and Souldrinker slightly nerfed (mostly with regard to using soul points for staff recharging and the capstone SLAs, but using it for magic item creation is actually buffed). In addition to that, you can take the regular Evangelist, Exalted, and Sentinel prestige classes to advance Fiendish Obedience, but with a special nerf, unlike the same allowances that are made for Fey Obedience and Monitor Obedience (which do not elevate the prereqs of those PrCs when used to advance them). Here is what Book of the Damned has to say:
Quote from: Book of the Damned, pg. 3
While the Hit Dice at which you gain boons via Fiendish Obedience or Deific Obedience (from Inner Sea Gods) are identical, the prestige classes in Inner Sea Gods (the evangelist, exalted, and sentinel) that allow accelerated boon achievement have lower entrance requirements than the prestige classes in this book. As a result, if you wish to use one of those three prestige classes for a character who wishes to gain the boons presented by one of the fiendish divinities in this book, increase the requirements for entry into evangelist, exalted, or sentinel so that a character must be 7th level before selecting the class, as summarized below.
  • Evangelist: Base attack bonus +7, 7 ranks in a skill other than Knowledge (religion), or ability to cast 4th-level spells.
  • Exalted: Diplomacy 7 ranks, Knowledge (religion) 7 ranks, ability to cast 4th-level divine spells.
  • Sentinel: Base attack bonus +7.

There are a few cases where Deific and Fiendish Obedience give the same reward (like Asmodeus and Mahathallah), making this kinda ridiculous, and a few other cases where they have both sets, but with different rewards for each (Lamashtu, Mephistopheles, Moloch, Geryon).

THE DEAL:

So Sifkesh now has the following Evangelist boon which seems rather interesting:
Quote
2: Blasphemer’s Piety (Ex) Your blasphemous soul adapts effortlessly to reflect the convictions of others. When you are targeted by an effect based on alignment or patron deity, you can choose to be treated as having the alignment and faith of the creature originating the effect (you don’t need to know that creature’s alignment or faith to make this choice). You can also be treated as having the faith of your target or targets when using a spell or effect dependent on patron deity. Making this choice does not require an action, or even awareness that you are being targeted (in which case the ability always functions as best benefits the character in that situation). In addition, you can select feats, traits, and other options dependent on worship of particular deities as though you were a worshiper of those deities. Once per week, you can choose to perform the obedience of any lawful or good deity with which you are familiar instead of Sifkesh’s obedience. This still grants you your normal benefits from Sifkesh, not those from the other faith.

In brief: You count as the religion and alignment of any creature that is targeting you (unless you don't want to), and if you are targeting them with an effect dependent on deity, you can count as their religion also. Also, you can use any option for any deity as if you worship them. Lastly, you can copy another deity's obedience ritual 1/week and still get Sifkesh's benefits.

Annoyingly, you cannot take options as if your alignment were other than it is (so anything that requires your alignment to match or be within 1 step of deity will still stop you), and a magic item that operates on its own (rather than being used by a creature, which makes for a creature originating the effect) will still expose you (but you can just use UMD for that, although the GM might also require you to make the appropriate Perception check first).

So, I'm wondering about how to go about taking advantage of this, and if anyone has ideas, by all means feel free to share them. Probably the first idea that comes to mind is probably taking an extra Deific/Celestial/Fey/Monitor Obedience feat, but if you aren't a Cleric (or using Evangelist/Exalted/Sentinel PrCs), nothing is actually stopping you from legitimately worshiping more than 1 deity in the first place (Blood of the Coven, for instance, establishes the presence of people who prefer to worship 3 deities, and there are other feats for worshiping pantheons as well, like Pantheistic Blessing) so there's no need to fake worship as one of Sifkesh's devoted.

What does stand out to me though, is using this to take advantage of those deities that give classes access to extra spells and other options. That doesn't even take a feat or anything, just worship, and you qualify as worshiping them alright.

18
D&D 3.5 and Pathfinder / [PF] Ways to acquire Stalwart
« on: February 16, 2022, 01:13:50 PM »
Thought it might be worthwhile to try to create a master list of sources for these perks in PF. Stalwart is "If you can make a Fortitude or Will saving throw against an attack that has a reduced effect on a successful save, you instead avoid the effect entirely." For the purposes of this list, any feature that provides these benefits will be listed, rather than ones that explicitly say Stalwart or directly lift its rules text.

List of sources for Stalwart:
  • Inquisitor 11: Regular Stalwart, except when wearing heavy armor, but with mithral armor being a thing that's not really an issue.
  • Mammoth Rider 10: Regular Stalwart.
  • Green Knight Cavalier 9: Regular Stalwart.
  • Student of War 3: It's a 1/day immediate action with an extra daily use for every 3 levels of Student of War thereafter, but it works on will, fort, and reflex saves. That's an improvement on Evasion which only applies to damage.
  • Unbreakable Fighter 13: Regular Stalwart.
  • Technomancer 8: Only against technological effects and does not work when flatfooted, but also applies to reflex saves.
  • Vindictive Bastard Paladin 14: Regular Stalwart.
  • Oath of the Skyseeker Paladin 14: Regular Stalwart.
  • Ironskin Monk 2: Fort saves only, and only when wearing light or no armor.
  • Zealot Vigilante 12: Regular Stalwart. The archetype is basically playing a nerfed Inquisitor, really.
  • Sacred Fist Warpriest 3: Fort saves only. This archetype is basically Monk+, even after they nerfed FoB to no longer give full BAB.
  • Skyseeker 9: Regular Stalwart, except when wearing heavy armor, but with mithral armor being a thing that's not really an issue (bizarre limitation though, considering the PrC gives heavy armor proficiency).
  • Twist Away: A pretty crazy feat. Requires evasion (and only evasion), and what it does is that as an immediate action you can substitute your reflex save for a fort save, ignoring the effect entirely on a successful save, but you are staggered next turn and you are not allowed to ignore the staggered condition or remove it early. No use limit. If you use the Experimental Spellcaster feat to get the Accelerate word of power, you get an extra move action each round, rendering the staggered condition much more tolerable.
Easiest dip so far is Ironskin Monk 2 (assuming you have Racial Heritage to count as a Hobgoblin), but Twist Away with a Ring of Evasion seems good too. And there is also a weirdo/honorable mention in the form of Escapologist Rogue 8, which can use Escape Artist skillchecks (at a -10 penalty) as an immediate action in place of a reflex roll and avoid the effect entirely on a success (not just damage, but the entire effect), but you are staggered next round if you do this.

If you have any more sources for Stalwart or similar effects (including for Reflex saves), let me know.

19
D&D 3.5 and Pathfinder / [PF] Full Pouch spell
« on: August 07, 2021, 12:29:40 PM »
Time to make a thread dedicated to the crazy spell that is Full Pouch:
Quote
FULL POUCH
Source Arcane Anthology pg. 20
School transmutation; Level alchemist 2, arcanist 2, bard 2, druid 2, hunter 2, inquisitor 3, investigator 2, occultist 3, ranger 3, skald 2, sorcerer 2, wizard 2
CASTING
Casting Time 1 swift action
Components V, S, M (alchemical reagents or herbs worth 1 gp)
EFFECT
Range touch
Target 1 object touched
Duration instantaneous
Saving Throw Fortitude negates (object); Spell Resistance no
DESCRIPTION
You cast this spell as you draw out a consumable alchemical item to use. The object must be an alchemical item, but not a dose of disease, a poison, a magic potion, or another type of consumable item. The item divides itself into two nearly identical copies and the newly separated one is delivered into your hand. The new item functions as the original in all ways except the copied item suffers a slight reduction in quality. Saves against the new alchemical item’s affects [sic] use the original item’s save DC or the save DC of this spell, whichever is higher.

So, for 1 swift action and 1 gp (if you use False Focus you can waive this cost as an arcane spellcaster, if you take Eschew Materials you can waive this 1 gp cost on any caster, and if you wear a 5k gp Robe of Components you can cast it 50 times per day before dipping into your own pockets), you can make a permanent copy of any alchemical item, and have it upgrade to the save DC of the spell instead of the item too.

I think it's pretty unambiguous that the following lists constitute alchemical items:
There are also two more lists that include clearly contain alchemical items:
Somewhat more ambiguous is whether Herbs count as alchemical items. At the least, it seems reasonable to assert that the herbs that require processing with Craft (Alchemy) constitute alchemical items in their processed form. (Incidentally, as vegetable matter, you can recreate herbs with Minor Creation, including through usage of Greater Shadow Conjuration, which is obtainable on any full spellcaster through the Veiled Illusionist PrC. Of course, this does not work for herbs you want to use as material components.)

Fungal Grafts may or may not count as alchemical items, but they are not consumables (as grafts remain an active part of the user) so they are not valid targets regardless.

Drugs are a more unusual topic. They do explicitly constitute alchemical items (see Drugs and Addiction: "Drugs are alchemical items") so they should work fine, but owing to how drugs parallel and employ the poison rules for some of their mechanics, there are GMs that will houserule that drugs qualify as poison for rules purposes (which would also mean that taking drugs causes a Paladin to fall, as using poison is a code of conduct violation), even though PF always distinguishes drugs from poisons (and at no point says anywhere that drugs are to be treated as poisons), so that is something to bear in mind. Then there is another side of the argument, which is that drug addiction is explicitly a disease, and therefore a dose of drug can also be treated as a dose of disease (which is an invalid target for Full Pouch), which would be an interesting argument to make (Is the disease of addiction considered part of what the drug dose is carrying or a reaction on the user's part to the drug? At any rate, drugs certainly aren't conventionally classified as disease doses). Lawyering and house rules aside, it seems like drugs would be a valid target for Full Pouch also, since they are indeed consumable alchemical items and not counted among either poisons or diseases, but it looks like the saving throw DCs against addiction would be raised to Full Pouch's DC, but at least you can use the spell to make a copy of Antiplague for a +5 alchemical bonus to fortitude saves vs disease before imbibing drugs, and don't forget you can always cast a spell with a lower DC, as if casting with the minimum spellcasting ability score required to be able to cast spells of that level (ie. you can go down to DC13 unless you're Inquisitor or Ranger, in which case it's DC14). You can also just wear a Periapt of Health which will render you immune to all diseases. If you are going to use drugs, you may want to use Amp to boost the drug's effects.

Clearly, this spell has a lot of potential to do things for you, so I figure we may as well make a thread about what would be some good uses of Full Pouch.

20
D&D 3.5 and Pathfinder / [Pathfinder] Ultimate Paragon Surge
« on: January 05, 2021, 04:25:26 PM »
Welp. Here's a thread to tackle the question of "How much further can we take Paragon Surge?" Enjoy.

As a point of reference, here is the Paragon Surge spell:
Quote
PARAGON SURGE
Source Advanced Race Guide pg. 48
School transmutation (polymorph); Level alchemist 3, arcanist 3, bloodrager 3, cleric 3, investigator 3, magus 4, medium 3, oracle 3, paladin 4, red mantis assassin 3, sorcerer 3, warpriest 3, witch 3, wizard 3 (half-elf)
CASTING
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S
EFFECT
Range personal (half-elf only)
Target you
Duration 1 minute/level
DESCRIPTION
You surge with ancestral power, temporarily embodying all the strengths of both elvenkind and humankind simultaneously, and transforming into a paragon of both races, something greater than elf or human alone. Unlike with most polymorph effects, your basic form does not change, so you keep all extraordinary and supernatural abilities of your half-elven form as well as all of your gear.

For the duration of the spell, you receive a +2 enhancement bonus to Dexterity and Intelligence and are treated as if you possessed any one feat for which you meet the prerequisites, chosen when you cast this spell. The first time each day that you cast this spell, you must select a feat and make all the associated choices that come with it. Once that choice is made, it is set for the day and additional castings must make the exact same decisions.

Now, Paragon Surge has an unfortunate nerf that we can only have one feat all day. We need to remedy that, and Emergency Attunement is just the feat to expend on fixing that:
Quote
EMERGENCY ATTUNEMENT
Source Pathfinder Society Primer pg. 13
You can adapt your defenses to any situation.

Prerequisites: Spellcraft 7 ranks.

Benefit: As a standard action, you can alter one of your ongoing abjuration or transmutation spells. It must be currently affecting you and must grant a choice of options when cast. You change its benefit to a different one from the same list. In order to accomplish this, you must make a successful Spellcraft check (DC equal to 10 + the level of the spell to be altered). The duration of the spell is reduced to half of the spell’s remaining duration. For example, a 7th-level wizard could change her resist energy (fire) spell with 50 minutes of its duration remaining into resist energy (cold), but the new duration would be 25 minutes. This ability does not change the benefit for any other creatures targeted by the original spell.
So now we get to have our flexible Paragon Surge spell again, letting us change our day's feat with one standard action, at the cost of halving our spell's duration. The pity of it is that if you cast Paragon Surge in combat and use Emergency Attunement to change the feat you are burning a standard action on top of the spellcast (which can be quickened with a lesser metamagic rod, at least), which is pretty expensive in actions (on top of the feat it already cost you), so you are better off making your changes post-combat since most combats won't last long enough to make Paragon Surge with its 1 minute/level duration expire anyway and then you have your last choice on a new spellcast. But Paragon Surge's duration also happens to be just perfect to improve with the Shapechanger bloodline:
Quote
Mutable Flesh (Su): At 3rd level, once per day when you cast a transmutation spell with a duration of 1 minute per level that affects only you, you can increase its duration to 10 minutes per level. At 9th level, you can increase the duration to 1 hour per level.
That's a pretty good ability, and you can even get it with Improved Eldritch Heritage (at 11th level). If you have 9th level Shapechanger bloodline you can pretty much cast Paragon Surge spell out of combat and halve the duration a lot of times (especially if you use Extend Spell metamagic) before it runs out. This gets pretty wild. But that's not good enough for us. Let's make the duration even better. Now that we have a 10 minutes/lvl duration or bigger, we can throw throw in a fun Ring of Continuation (56k gp):
Quote
RING OF CONTINUATION
Price 56,000 gp; Slot ring; CL 7th; Weight —; Aura moderate transmutation
Source Ultimate Equipment pg. 168

This band of braided copper wires throbs ever so slightly in harmony with its wearer’s heartbeat. Whenever the wearer of this ring casts a spell with a range of personal and a duration of 10 minutes per level or greater, that spell remains in effect for 24 hours or until the wearer casts another spell with a range of personal (whichever comes first). Spells that usually only affect one specific action (such as making a particular attack) are expended after that action. This does not reduce the duration of spells that normally last longer than 24 hours. Casting a new spell does not eliminate a previous spell if its normal duration is such that it would still be in effect. However, attempts to dispel or otherwise eliminate a spell kept active by the ring work normally and, if successful, remove the spell from the ring, causing the wearer to lose all benefits from that spell.

CONSTRUCTION REQUIREMENTS
Cost 28,000 gp
Forge Ring, mnemonic enhancer

Neat, now we have 24 hour long Paragon Surge. Also, notice that the Ring of Continuation clearly keeps the spell in effect for 24 hours as an effect of the magic ring, side-stepping the spell's own duration, even if the spell's duration would have expired. Which goes well with our Emergency Attunement feat above.

Yep, now you get Paragon Surge lasting for 24 hours and can use standard actions at will to change its options! What's not to like?

The only concern here is dispelling, but we can equip a Ring of Counterspells or two (with a Hand of Glory necklace for the 3rd ring slot) to instantly counter dispel magic (or greater dispel magic, but that's rare). I'd also consider using the Paragon Surge to give yourself a Sorcerous Bloodstrike (if you are doing this as a Sorcerer) so that you can cast Paragon Surge this way twice, and maybe use feats/traits/etc to raise the spell's caster level or DC vs dispel attempts (Tenacious Transmutation feat and Tenacious Spell metamagic work for this, and there are a lot of traits to boost caster level or DC vs dispels too). That will pretty much make dispelling this a nightmare. If you really want you can even use Crossblooded to obtain the Protean arcana for +4 to dispel DCs or even use the Daemon bloodline to Fireball a bunch of rats or chickens you buffed with Mass Fox's Cunning for the occasion so you can cast Paragon Surge with a very high CL.

That said, the Ring of Continuation is probably (expensive) overkill when you already have hours/level duration and presumably Extend Spell + Sorcerous Bloodstrike. But at least you can make this ring for half price if you make the ring your arcane bond, and you can pay +5 DC to craft it without having Mnemonic Enhancer (see here: "The DC to create a magic item increases by +5 for each prerequisite the caster does not meet.").

Fun fact: This build is PFS legal too.

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