Author Topic: The Avatar of Menoth  (Read 12326 times)

Offline littha

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The Avatar of Menoth
« on: October 20, 2012, 04:24:21 PM »
The Avatar of Menoth


"And lo, the mightiest of heathens will bow before His holy light or be set ablaze by His wrathful touch." -The Canon of True Law

HD:d10
(click to show/hide)
Skills: 2+Int modifier, No class skills.

Proficiencies: The Avatar is only Proficient with its Burning Wrath and Divine Shield.

Features:

Body of Faith The Avatar loses all other racial bonuses and becomes a construct, with all of its penalties and disadvantages, except for the extra HP:
(click to show/hide)

The Avatar is a medium sized construct with base speed 30 feet. It has a Slam attack that deals 1d6 damage. The Avatar is Immune to Fire. The Avatar also gains +2 Str at first level and an additional +1 at each additional level.

Godforged (Ex)
The Avatar may never wear armor or wield weapons other than the Burning Wrath and the Divine Shield (detailed below), however it may have its body enchanted as though it were a suit of armor. In addition it has a natural armor bonus equal to 5 + Str mod. Each time the Avatar increases in size it gains +1 to its natural armor.

Unstoppable (Ex): The Avatar is no mere construct, it contains the true might and power of Menoth and as such is harder to destroy than usual. While it does not gain the normal bonus hit points based on size as most constructs do it has a sort of vitality granted by its holy state. While the Avatar still has no Constitution score it is treated as though it had 14 Constitution for determining Hit points. This effective constitution score cannot be boosted by any means however it increases by 1 every odd HD.

Burning Wrath (Ex): In its right hand the Avatar wields a massive blade named the Burning Wrath, to fall beneath this weapon is to suffer the unmediated judgement of the Creator. It takes the form of a large sword. The Burning Wrath has the following stats: Damage 2d6, Critical 19-20/x2, 4lbs, Slashing and Piercing damage. It may be enchanted as usual for any weapon. When the Avatar increases in size the Burning Wrath does also and its damage increases as appropriate. Due to its immense power only the Avatar may safely wield the Burning Wrath any other creature recieves a negative level and is set on fire with no save, this fire persists until the weapon is removed. Due to the way a warjack's arms are attached it is impossible for the Avatar to wield the Burning Wrath in two hands.

Divine Shield (Ex): In its left hand the Avatar bears the Divine Shield which carries the words of the lawfiver spoken to the first Menites as her raised the first wall. It provides a +4 Shield bonus, has no max deterity bonus, no armor check penalty and no Arcane spell failure chance. It weighs 15lbs and is made of metal. The Divine shield may be used in shield bash attacks and deals 1d8 damage. If any creature other than the avatar attempts to wield the Divine shield it recieves a negative level and is dazed until the shield is removed. It may be enchanted in the same way as any other shield. When the Avatar increases in size so does the Divine Shield.

Holy Vessel (Su): Each round the Avatar gains 1d4 Faith points. It may never have more faith points than its class level +4. At the start of each combat the Avatars Faith points are set to 0 (before rolling for the first rounds points).

Menoth's Purity (Sp):
The Avatar gains the ability to use certain spell like abilities, the caster level for these abilities is equal to its class level. The save DC is 10+1/2 Class level + Str mod. You must still provide expensive material components to use these abilities. The Avatar may use these abilities by spending a faith point but no more than a number of times a day equal to its class level divided by the minimum required level of the ability rounding down. Thus a 10th level Avatar could use Protection from Chaos and Sanctuary 5 times a day, Calm Emotions and Shield Other 2 times a day and the rest of its abilities once a day.
Level 2 Protection from Chaos, Sanctuary
Level 4 Calm Emotions, Shield Other
Level 6 Magic Circle against Chaos, Protection From Energy
Level 8 Order's Wrath, Spell Immunity
Level 10 Dispel Chaos, Spell Resistance
Level 12 Hold Monster, Antimagic Field
Level 14 Dictum, Repulsion
Level 16 Shield of Law, Mind Blank
Level 18 Summon Monster IX(Lawful only), Prismatic Sphere

Sacred Ward (Su): The Avatar's shield generates a constant field of divine energy that deflects and nullifies incoming magic. By spending a Faith point as a swift action the Avatar gains the effect of the Spell Turning Spell until the beginning of its next action. It only deflects a number of spell levels equal to half the Avatar's levels in this class.

Flame Burst (Su): Whenever the Avatar successfully slays an enemy using the Burning Wrath its target explodes in a blaze of pure white flames, creatures within 5' of it catch on fire unless they pass a DC 10+1/2 HD+Str mod Reflex save (rather than the usual DC 15). At level 5 and level 15 the radius of the flame burst increases by 5'

Eight Walls of Menoth (Sp): The Wall is a Sumbol of Menoth, it represents Order, Law and a bastion against Chaos. The Avatar of Menoth may expend some of its divine power to raise a wall in the glory of Menoth. Each of the Eight Walls may be used once a day plus one additional time a day by spending a number of faith points equal to the number of times it has been used that day -1. Thus the first use of each wall is free, the second costs 1 faith point, the third 2 and so on. Each wall is a spell like ability as noted below. The caster level of each ability is equal to the Avatars class level and the save DC (if necessary) is 10+1/2 HD+Str Mod.
-First Wall. Wind Wall
-Second Wall. Illusory Wall
-Third Wall. Wall of Fire
-Fourth Wall. Wall of Ice
-Fifth Wall. Wall of Stone
-Sixth Wall. Wall of Iron
-Seventh Wall. Wall of Force
-Eighth Wall. Prismatic Wall

Size Increase (Ex): At level 5 the Avatar increases in size to Large and again at level 15 to Huge.

Menoth's Gaze (Su): The eyes of the avatar constantly burn with the smoldering fires of menoths law. By spending a faith point as a standard action it may exert control over every enemy within 30' that it has line of sight to. Unless they can pass a DC (10+1/2 HD+Str mod) Will Save the targeted foes may not end their turn further away from the Avatar than they began it.

Damage Reduction (Ex): At level 8 the Avatar gains Damage Reduction 5/Adamantine, this increases to DR 10/Adamantine at level 13 and DR 15/Adamantine at level 17.

Menoth's Might (Su): The power of Menoth constantly surges through the Avatar, it may spend faith points to enhance its abilities.  Each faith point spent allows it to make an additional attack at its highest attack bonus with one of its weapons. In addition faith points may be spent to increase the Avatar's accuracy or damage. After declaring an attack but before rolling to see if it hits the Avatar may spend a faith point, if it does roll two d20 instead of 1 and take the best result. Faith points may also be spent to boost damage, if a faith point is spent before damage is rolled the total damage of the attack is multiplied by 1.5. Spending faith points is a Free action.

Divine Protection (Sp): The Avatar is protected by the hand of Menoth himself, ailments of lesser beings are of no consequence to Him. By spending a faith point as a Swift action the Avatar may cast Greater Dispel Magic. However this ability may only be used as a targeted dispel and may only target the avatar itself. You may choose which spells are affected by this ability. In addition, this ability removes Ability Damage, Ability Drain, Blindness, Confusion, Daze, Dazzle, Deafened, Energy Drained, Entangled, Exhausted, Fascinated, Fatigued, Frightened, Nauseated, Panicked, Paralysed, Petrified, Shaken, Sickened, Staggered, Stunned, Turned and Unconscious. This ability may be used even if an effect may otherwise prevent it.

The Avatar of Menoth (Ex): The Avatar is no normal warjack, it has no cortex and it accepts no commands. It is an empty shell, filled with the true awesome power of Menoth's Wrath, a fragment of his total power. The Avatar gains Divine Rank 5 and all of the related benefits. It has the Annihilating Strike, Battlesense, Divine Weapon Mastery (Burning Wrath), Frightful Presence and Power of Truth Salient Divine abilities even if it does not meet the prerequisites. The Salient Divine abilities should be drawn from the list in this thread.  Its portfolio consists of Law, War and Protection. The Avatar itself has no worshippers, holy locations or holy objects (for that would draw them away from the church of Menoth) and can not grant spells. Due to its construct nature it does not gain any of the benefits a god normally receives for having a high Cha score. It may only utilise the Greater Teleport ability 3 times a day and it has no godly realm.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2012, 08:34:32 AM by littha »

Offline Rakoa

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Re: The Avatar of Menoth
« Reply #1 on: October 20, 2012, 05:05:28 PM »
This whole monster looks pretty badass. Being a WIP, I'll hold off on any balance issues until it's done, so I'll just mention that Thunderhead is mentioned under Unstoppable, and twice under Menoth's Might. I look forward to seeing the finished product on this one, for sure.  :)
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Offline littha

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Re: The Avatar of Menoth
« Reply #2 on: October 21, 2012, 08:29:26 AM »
Ok, filled in the table. Need critiques and suggestions on changes.

Note that the Avatar is already immune to a huge number of the status effects listed in Divine Protection, they are just listed for completeness. It is an attempt to write a working version of Iron Heart Surge....

I intend to Write one of these for Drago (Khador character berserker), Either Discordia or Hypnos (Retribution of Scyrah) and Rocinante (Mercenary).
« Last Edit: October 21, 2012, 08:40:50 AM by littha »

Offline Rakoa

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Re: The Avatar of Menoth
« Reply #3 on: October 21, 2012, 09:32:08 AM »
I'll do what I can for suggestions. I really suck at balancing things out at the higher levels, but I can see a few issues at the early ones. It has 5+Str natural armour, which is bound to be awesome, along with a 4 AC shield. The natural armour is going to be through the roof considering that strength is the classes main (and pretty much only) priority. With a +2 str to kick it off, a modifier of 3 or 4 wouldn't be difficult to obtain, for a starting AC of 22 or 23, plus dex, something I don't think is possible for any other first level anything.

Of course, it has horrible saves and no skills, but construct traits balance out the saves, considering it is immune to most anything that requires a save. It's either immune, or can spend a faith point to counter any spell targeting it, no action and no save, which is also pretty crazy. Just pairing the insane spell countering with the godly armour class and I do think balance may be an issue. But also, maybe I'm wrong, as melee never has gotten the power it deserved. This is my take on it, but I'd like to see a second opinion. I really do like this class though, and I think it has promise for sure.

P.S. As I said I suck at balancing the higher levels. The capstone looks unbalanced to me, but I don't know how it compares to other level 20 things so I can't be a judge of it.
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Offline littha

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Re: The Avatar of Menoth
« Reply #4 on: October 21, 2012, 09:50:42 AM »
I'll do what I can for suggestions. I really suck at balancing things out at the higher levels, but I can see a few issues at the early ones. It has 5+Str natural armour, which is bound to be awesome, along with a 4 AC shield. The natural armour is going to be through the roof considering that strength is the classes main (and pretty much only) priority. With a +2 str to kick it off, a modifier of 3 or 4 wouldn't be difficult to obtain, for a starting AC of 22 or 23, plus dex, something I don't think is possible for any other first level anything.

I ran the comparisons when I wrote the Deathjack and Thunderhead, the Avatar has 4 more points of armor but a 1st level character can easily hit AC 19 and AC 23 is easily available by the time you can afford full plate. This is without feats or class features. At higher levels (12+) it does scale a lot higher than a normal character is likley to have but by that point a high AC is rather pointless anyway.

Think the highest you can get at level 1 probably involves a warforged scout with a tower shield which could easily hit AC 25 before class features (though it would cost you a feat for adamantine body.)

Quote
It's either immune, or can spend a faith point to counter any spell targeting it, no action and no save, which is also pretty crazy.
Counterspells never offer a save and normally require you to sacrifice your actions to stand there waiting for an opponent to cast something. Which is basically why nobody ever counterspells.

Quote
P.S. As I said I suck at balancing the higher levels. The capstone looks unbalanced to me, but I don't know how it compares to other level 20 things so I can't be a judge of it.

The capstone is likley one of the strongest around, Divine Ranks give a lot of benefits but 20 levels in a melee class has to lead to something good. It would make little sense for it to not have some sort of divine rank though considering its backstory.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2012, 10:04:13 AM by littha »

Offline oslecamo

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Re: The Avatar of Menoth
« Reply #5 on: October 21, 2012, 09:54:36 AM »
Just to point out that divine rank 5 out of nowhere following the borked original rules for divine rank is probably the most ridiculous things I've ever seen here, even for a lv20 capstone. It grants you:

-Immunity to three elements and a bunch of other stuff construct didn't covered yet.
-All of your domain spells as SLAs at will. Hello summon monster IX and prismatic sphere at will.
-greater teleport at will
-All the remote sensing stuff and crafting and free actions and oh my.
-Cha and Divine rank to pretty much everything that demands rolls.
-Oh, anihilating strike, sure, why not make all of its melee attacks inflict save or just die because the DC will always be too damn high.

So, why has the protectorate still not conquered their whole setting considering considering they have a virtually indestructible warjack (suck it thunderhead, the avatar now has complete immune to electricity) that can summon armies out of his ass while teleporting directly inside everybody's strongholds?

So no, just no. You do not give divine rank 5 out of nowhere in any situation, point.

Goes back to study after curiosity got the better of him since the avatar of menoth looked pretty cool in the original setting.

Offline littha

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Re: The Avatar of Menoth
« Reply #6 on: October 21, 2012, 10:42:21 AM »
Quote
So, why has the protectorate still not conquered their whole setting considering considering they have a virtually indestructible warjack (suck it thunderhead, the avatar now has complete immune to electricity) that can summon armies out of his ass while teleporting directly inside everybody's strongholds?

That would be a disjunct between the 3.5 rules and the setting. The basic issue here is that the avatar is the container of a portion of Menoth's pure divine power (thus the name) and it is the literal embodiment of his wrath, it would make no sense if it had no divine rank at all. The reason it is the capstone and not part of the standard progression of the class is because I am well aware of what divine rank gives and it would be unreasonable at lower levels. At level 20 though you could be expected to fight Epic level monsters or even demigods so there remain things (a lot of things actually considering the lack of ranged weapons) that can challenge it.

I may specify that the Avatar does not have domains (at the moment it doesn't but I can clarify) which would stop the summon monster spam (I don't know why you would spam Prismatic Sphere anyway, it has a duration of 10 minutes/level). Charisma to things is not that strong considering the rest of the class has no Cha synergy (probably wont have more than 12 or 14 Cha) and the bonuses will be weaker than say a Cleric's persistant spells anyway. Immunity to elements is hardly a level 20 effect, the number of ways to get immunity or resistance to elements are ridiculously huge by level 20.

Besides which does your god class not still have Annihilating Strike?

I am concerned about the Greater Teleport at will thing If I am honest but it is possible for characters to get this at level 13 or level 15 and by level 20 foes should be capable of stopping teleporting attacks anyway.

Divine rank gives you a whole lot of stuff which makes them look super OP but compared to a high level spellcaster (once you stop the SLA spam at least) some immunities and bonuses for high Cha are not as strong as they seem.

Edit: Specified that the Avatar does not grant spells of have worshippers. This should limit its Senses and stop it from using at will SLAs.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2012, 10:54:23 AM by littha »

Offline Rakoa

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Re: The Avatar of Menoth
« Reply #7 on: October 21, 2012, 11:01:43 AM »
Well, in light of this I would suggest watering down the capstone a tad. Perhaps only add divine rank to things, forget Charisma entirely, as a +5 would be nice but not gamebreaking. With no domains, and hence none of the at-wills, thats not really a problem, and considering it has no worshippers that lessens some of the Divine Rank 5 stuff as well. I would agree, though, that Annihilating Strike has to go, or at least have a reasonable DC. Greater Teleport, while available before level 20, would be pretty abusable if it was at-will.

With those fixes, all you're looking at is some element immunity which isn't such a big deal, no crazy at-will SLAs, Divine Rank boosts without Cha getting his dirty hands in the mix, a lesser version of annihilating strike and a limit on Greater Teleport. Definitely still worthy of capstone status, but not gamebreaking.
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Offline oslecamo

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Re: The Avatar of Menoth
« Reply #8 on: October 21, 2012, 11:13:54 AM »
That would be a disjunct between the 3.5 rules and the setting. The basic issue here is that the avatar is the container of a portion of Menoth's pure divine power (thus the name) and it is the literal embodiment of his wrath, it would make no sense if it had no divine rank at all.
There's "container/literal embodiment of a god's power/will" classes, prcs and monsters everywhere(including cleric/druid/favored soul/spirit shaman/paladin/etc), and how many of them have divine ranks again?

The reason it is the capstone and not part of the standard progression of the class is because I am well aware of what divine rank gives and it would be unreasonable at lower levels. At level 20 though you could be expected to fight Epic level monsters or even demigods so there remain things (a lot of things actually considering the lack of ranged weapons) that can challenge it.
Balor is an 20th level monster. Pit fiend is a 20th level monster. This class grazes them and they drop dead. This class grazes a thunderhead 20 or necrojack 20 and they drop dead.  As it is the only thing that can challenge the avatar right now are fullcasters that cheese out some 20+ actions per turn to break trough the multiple prismatic sphere layers and then break trough all the other wards the avatar has.

I may specify that the Avatar does not have domains (at the moment it doesn't but I can clarify) which would stop the summon monster spam (I don't know why you would spam Prismatic Sphere anyway, it has a duration of 10 minutes/level).
Because the way it is worded you can either leave them behind and form prismatic fortresses or you can just put multiple castings over yourself, meaning if one prismatic sphre goes down the enemy still has to deal with the other dozens below. They tecnically don't stack, but the best one counts as the active, so taking down a layer one just means you have to deal with the same layer of the next.

Charisma to things is not that strong considering the rest of the class has no Cha synergy (probably wont have more than 12 or 14 Cha) and the bonuses will be weaker than say a Cleric's persistant spells anyway.
Since when has this project's balance point been "cleric oozing out persistent spells" again?

Also it's horrible design that in a campaign starting at level 20 you would want to build the avatar as cha-focused.

Immunity to elements is hardly a level 20 effect, the number of ways to get immunity or resistance to elements are ridiculously huge by level 20.
Immunity to polymorphing/petrification and disintegrate are not. Even fullcasters will have an hard time becoming immune to those.

Besides which does your god class not still have Annihilating Strike?
Heavily nerfed, since it doesn't add the damage dealt to the DC like yours.

I am concerned about the Greater Teleport at will thing If I am honest but it is possible for characters to get this at level 13 or level 15 and by level 20 foes should be capable of stopping teleporting attacks anyway.

Divine rank gives you a whole lot of stuff which makes them look super OP but compared to a high level spellcaster (once you stop the SLA spam at least) some immunities and bonuses for high Cha are not as strong as they seem.

Edit: Specified that the Avatar does not grant spells of have worshippers. This should limit its Senses and stop it from using at will SLAs.
Great, you removed the most irrelevant aspects (because it still has the portfolio and that's what matters). Still auto-killing everything it touches while protected by dozens of layers of prismatic spheres not taking in account its other abilities and gaining BS bonus to basically everything it does. No. Double no when you say "balanced by free metamagic clerics on steroids standards". That alone should point out to you how broken it is.

Triple no because it's nothing short of an insult to all the other people who made monsters that gain divine rank 0 as their hard-earned capstones.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2012, 11:19:05 AM by oslecamo »

Offline littha

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Re: The Avatar of Menoth
« Reply #9 on: October 21, 2012, 11:23:14 AM »
Greater Teleport, while available before level 20, would be pretty abusable if it was at-will.

Actually those levels (13/15) are for when you could get greater teleport at will in the normal game. Its a lot lower than that using the standard HD/LA rules but I like to avoid those anyway.

If you are wondering how, Level 13 lets you cast Holy Transformation (Spc) which gives the Archon Subtype (which in turn gives greater teleport at will and a pile of other things). Rather a powerful spell as it can be persisted. Level 15 is a Planar Shepard which is also rather strong but the point being that at will teleportation can be acquired at much lower than level 20. (notably at will dimension door or other short ranged teleportation is available at will at level 2).

I am still not entirely certain about it though.


That would be a disjunct between the 3.5 rules and the setting. The basic issue here is that the avatar is the container of a portion of Menoth's pure divine power (thus the name) and it is the literal embodiment of his wrath, it would make no sense if it had no divine rank at all.
There's "container/literal embodiment of a god's power/will" classes, prcs and monsters everywhere(including cleric/druid/favored soul/spirit shaman/paladin/etc), and how many of them have divine ranks again?
Not quite the same, worshippers and servants are not the same as a literal piece of an overdeity.

Quote
The reason it is the capstone and not part of the standard progression of the class is because I am well aware of what divine rank gives and it would be unreasonable at lower levels. At level 20 though you could be expected to fight Epic level monsters or even demigods so there remain things (a lot of things actually considering the lack of ranged weapons) that can challenge it.
Balor is an 20th level monster. Pit fiend is a 20th level monster. This class grazes them and they drop dead. This class grazes a thunderhead 20 or necrojack 20 and they drop dead.  As it is the only thing that can challenge the avatar right now are fullcasters that cheese out some 20+ actions per turn to break trough the multiple prismatic sphere layers and then break trough all the other wards the avatar has.
Prismatic Spheres are immobile and require a standard action to activate. It can also only use it 1/day

I may reference your SDA list for its granted abilities, I doubt its first attack would be a "Scratch" to begin with so the DC needs moderation.


Quote
Charisma to things is not that strong considering the rest of the class has no Cha synergy (probably wont have more than 12 or 14 Cha) and the bonuses will be weaker than say a Cleric's persistant spells anyway.
Since when has this project's balance point been "cleric oozing out persistent spells" again?

Also it's horrible design that in a campaign starting at level 20 you would want to build the avatar as cha-focused.
A +8 or so bonus to attack rolls, AC and skill checks is not even approaching what a level 20 cleric would be capable of. I am still considering removing the Cha bonus though.

Quote
Immunity to elements is hardly a level 20 effect, the number of ways to get immunity or resistance to elements are ridiculously huge by level 20.
Immunity to polymorphing/petrification and disintegrate are not. Even fullcasters will have an hard time becoming immune to those.
Immunity to Polymorphing is usually negative, even worse than usual in this case because it was already immune to Baleful polymorph (due to it being a fort save) which leaves only Polymorph any Object as an additional immunity. Polymorphing into a Plant or Ooze gets you this as a spellcaster

Immunity to petrification is available at Binder 1 with Improved Binding or any character with Bind Vestage and Improved Binding. Also the vast majority of petrification effects are fort saves anyway.

Immunity to Disintigrate is the big gain here, it is pretty close to instant death to any construct or undead due to having low Fort saves which makes it a nice bonus.

Quote
I am concerned about the Greater Teleport at will thing If I am honest but it is possible for characters to get this at level 13 or level 15 and by level 20 foes should be capable of stopping teleporting attacks anyway.

Divine rank gives you a whole lot of stuff which makes them look super OP but compared to a high level spellcaster (once you stop the SLA spam at least) some immunities and bonuses for high Cha are not as strong as they seem.

Edit: Specified that the Avatar does not grant spells of have worshippers. This should limit its Senses and stop it from using at will SLAs.
Great, you removed the most irrelevant aspects (because it still has the portfolio and that's what matters). Still auto-killing everything it touches while protected by dozens of layers of prismatic spheres not taking in account its other abilities and gaining BS bonus to basically everything it does. No. Double no when you say "balanced by free metamagic clerics on steroids standards". That alone should point out to you how broken it is.

Quote
A deity can use any domain spell it can grant as a spell-like ability at will.
Inability to grant spells means It cant spam SLAs, thus a maximum of 1/day prismatic sphere, I hardly consider this irrelevant.

I also never said that it was balanced by clerics. I said that the bonuses it recieved from one of its abilities were weaker than those a cleric could provide. This is a melee class with mid BAB and a limited list of SLAs, I could give it divine rank 10 and have it still be weaker than a level 20 cleric.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2012, 11:58:43 AM by littha »

Offline estradus

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Re: The Avatar of Menoth
« Reply #10 on: October 21, 2012, 10:34:07 PM »
It seems to me that divine rank 5 is both very uneasilly specific, while also being very powerful in many ways. As much as I enjoy playing with characters who are gods, it might be a wiser option to go with divine rank 0 and come up with your own, personally selected and worded abilities instead of grabbing from the god bucket. It may be a piece of a god, but divinity takes so many forms from campaign to campaign that divine rank 5 might be not quite the right step. It can always take levels in the god class after reaching 20 which are at least in the barest attempt to be balanced. Make some stuff up about the avatar adding its worshippers to the proper one, I don't know.

Alsos: none of the other avatars have divine ranks, they just have the fact that theres a god out there backing them up. Maybe if you want a dash of divine power thrown in there, get something with that?

Alsos alsos: for a weapon called burning wrath, that causes lots of things to burst into flames for various reasons... shouldn't it do fire damage at some point? It seems lonely, having a sword that isn't at least heated up unless I specifically enchant it to.

Alsos alsos again: I rather enjoy this idea at least. Big robot and all that. Experimenting with a character using this now, though hampered by not knowing anything about the source material. I just made an arena, stated one out, and had it fight things from dragonmech.

Finally: I find it very amusing that the argument is over whether divine ranks or clerics are more powerful.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2012, 10:47:08 PM by estradus »

Offline littha

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Re: The Avatar of Menoth
« Reply #11 on: October 22, 2012, 04:12:11 AM »
It seems to me that divine rank 5 is both very uneasilly specific, while also being very powerful in many ways. As much as I enjoy playing with characters who are gods, it might be a wiser option to go with divine rank 0 and come up with your own, personally selected and worded abilities instead of grabbing from the god bucket. It may be a piece of a god, but divinity takes so many forms from campaign to campaign that divine rank 5 might be not quite the right step. It can always take levels in the god class after reaching 20 which are at least in the barest attempt to be balanced. Make some stuff up about the avatar adding its worshippers to the proper one, I don't know.
I definitely don't want to emphasise taking the god class as its flavour and function are drastically different than what the avatar is supposed to do. I also think it is super OP in its own ways but that is a discussion for another thread.


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Alsos: none of the other avatars have divine ranks, they just have the fact that theres a god out there backing them up. Maybe if you want a dash of divine power thrown in there, get something with that?
If you are refering to the other warjack classes (Thunderhead and Deathjack) they are not avatars, they are just giant killer robots. Standard D&D rules stipulate that an avatar of a god has a portion of their divine rank.

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Alsos alsos: for a weapon called burning wrath, that causes lots of things to burst into flames for various reasons... shouldn't it do fire damage at some point? It seems lonely, having a sword that isn't at least heated up unless I specifically enchant it to.
That is due to the background of the weapon, in the game this is from it does not do fire damage (even though that is a thing) for some reason. You can enchant it if you really feel the need for it to be on fire though.

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Alsos alsos again: I rather enjoy this idea at least. Big robot and all that. Experimenting with a character using this now, though hampered by not knowing anything about the source material. I just made an arena, stated one out, and had it fight things from dragonmech.
Never got to play Dragonmech myself, looked interesting from what I could see of it but nobody else ever seemed interested lol.

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Finally: I find it very amusing that the argument is over whether divine ranks or clerics are more powerful.
That may emphasise quite how gameshattering powerful a cleric can be if played properly. It is a very poor point of balance on the part of the designers. That said most of the Gods they actually created had 20 outsider HD and two classes at 20, a lot of them were Outsider 20/Fighter 20/Cleric 20...

Offline littha

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Re: The Avatar of Menoth
« Reply #12 on: October 22, 2012, 10:38:52 AM »
Capstone updated, currently the entire benefits of it are:
Maximum HP per HD
100' base land speed
+5 natural armor
+5 to hit and no automatic failures on a 1
+5 to all saves, no automatic failures on a 1
+5 to all skill checks, ability checks and caster level checks.
Immune to Polymorph, Petrification and form altering effects
Immune to Electricity, Cold and Acid
Immune to Disintegration
DR 15/Epic (total DR 15/Adamantine and Epic)
Spell Resistance 37
Can sense when an event that involves its portfolio occurs that involves at least 1000 people.
Can create items up to 4500gp in value without the necessary item creation feats (with no spells this leaves a rather short list)
50' divine aura
Can understand, speak and read any language. May communicate over a distance of 5 miles.


As it has no Worshippers, holy objects or holy places it is unable to use the remote sensing or remote communication powers. As it can not grant spells it does not gain the ability to use domain spell like abilities at will.

The SDAs now refer to the God Class rather than the SRD versions of those abilities.

Offline estradus

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Re: The Avatar of Menoth
« Reply #13 on: October 23, 2012, 03:09:36 AM »
It seems to me that divine rank 5 is both very uneasilly specific, while also being very powerful in many ways. As much as I enjoy playing with characters who are gods, it might be a wiser option to go with divine rank 0 and come up with your own, personally selected and worded abilities instead of grabbing from the god bucket. It may be a piece of a god, but divinity takes so many forms from campaign to campaign that divine rank 5 might be not quite the right step. It can always take levels in the god class after reaching 20 which are at least in the barest attempt to be balanced. Make some stuff up about the avatar adding its worshippers to the proper one, I don't know.
I definitely don't want to emphasise taking the god class as its flavour and function are drastically different than what the avatar is supposed to do. I also think it is super OP in its own ways but that is a discussion for another thread.


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Alsos: none of the other avatars have divine ranks, they just have the fact that theres a god out there backing them up. Maybe if you want a dash of divine power thrown in there, get something with that?
If you are refering to the other warjack classes (Thunderhead and Deathjack) they are not avatars, they are just giant killer robots. Standard D&D rules stipulate that an avatar of a god has a portion of their divine rank.

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Alsos alsos: for a weapon called burning wrath, that causes lots of things to burst into flames for various reasons... shouldn't it do fire damage at some point? It seems lonely, having a sword that isn't at least heated up unless I specifically enchant it to.
That is due to the background of the weapon, in the game this is from it does not do fire damage (even though that is a thing) for some reason. You can enchant it if you really feel the need for it to be on fire though.

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Alsos alsos again: I rather enjoy this idea at least. Big robot and all that. Experimenting with a character using this now, though hampered by not knowing anything about the source material. I just made an arena, stated one out, and had it fight things from dragonmech.
Never got to play Dragonmech myself, looked interesting from what I could see of it but nobody else ever seemed interested lol.
Im no good at breaking up quoted text...

I agree that the god class is overpowered and never actually seems to do what I want it to do; I just wanted to put in my two cents that divine rank 5 feels a little bit like a copout. Typically by dnd rules an avatar would indeed have divine ranks; but wouldn't playing an actual avatar be akin to playing a familiar? Whats to stop you from saying "things are getting problematic now, but its okay because I'm literally a chunk of god and I can get a the real thing to come and solve our problems!" Plus if the avatar dies, couldnt he just immedietly come back as the god makes another avatar? Does this inflict long-lasting damage to the god? I don't know. There are aspects to playing a divine avatar of this variety that seem iffy.

Actually when I said other avataars I meant things like avatar of Lolth or Hextor or whoever from I forget which book. monster manual 4 or 5? One of the ones I don't actually have and thus don't know as well. Theyre like, cr 12 even. *15 minutes of snooping later* Never mind, I was thinking the aspects from the miniatures handbook, not avataars.

On the topic of lack of fire damage on the sword, it seems like the class is, overall, kinda empty. For being a giant robot who hits hard, I don't seem to be... well, hitting very hard. This was at like level 4 that I really noticed this, but I was doing terrible damage-wise for having a strength of 28 and a 4d8 damage weapon. I appreciate that I'm like a mostly indestructable thing, what with nearly unlimited free counterspells and fairly high armor class... But then I get roasted like marshmallows by a dragon's breath weapon, and a couple lucky 20s managed to take out a good portion of my health, and the dr is too broken up to mitigate it much... And then its difficult to recover health; unless I can craft like a warforged. Its got weird and really overpowered abilities attached all over and they don't seem to be helping much with its problems. It gets like 20 abilities for its capstone and gets kinda not much aside from armor class and targeted magic immunity at low levels. It gets alot of immunities with the divine protection ability that constructs are already typically immune to, at least as far as I thought I knew. The dr seems kinda clumped up (though I guess I'm used to them being like dr 1/2 hd or whatever), and some of the abilities seem unessecerially verbose, like bringing up a quasiexistant con score for the unstoppable ability when just saying it gets a certain amount of bonus hp per level seems less confusing. I admit that I'm starting to nitpick here, but I guess I'm just sad that a class that looks and feels so cool turned out to be kinda a letdown for me so far.

Finally: I already know how ridiculous clerics are. Me and my friend are having a no-holds-barred persist metamagic character-battle later this week, be glad you arent counting ridiculous 3rd party sources in your overpowered calculations. I'm running around with 40 cha and adding my charisma modifier to my strength modifier for all strength based checks, including melee attack and damage... and we're just at level 10.

Actually I lied, thats not finally, this is: I didn't even know about the other warjack classes before just now, so if there's any trends I should have picked up on from those to figure out where this slots in, I've missed it. I think I'll go look into those, with any luck it shall sate my giant robots smashing things desire.
« Last Edit: October 23, 2012, 03:12:43 AM by estradus »

Offline littha

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Re: The Avatar of Menoth
« Reply #14 on: October 23, 2012, 06:31:35 AM »
I agree that the god class is overpowered and never actually seems to do what I want it to do; I just wanted to put in my two cents that divine rank 5 feels a little bit like a copout. Typically by dnd rules an avatar would indeed have divine ranks; but wouldn't playing an actual avatar be akin to playing a familiar? Whats to stop you from saying "things are getting problematic now, but its okay because I'm literally a chunk of god and I can get a the real thing to come and solve our problems!" Plus if the avatar dies, couldnt he just immedietly come back as the god makes another avatar? Does this inflict long-lasting damage to the god? I don't know. There are aspects to playing a divine avatar of this variety that seem iffy.
Avatars don't inflict damage to a god when destroyed but a god could just make a new one given time, it wouldn't be this one though as that would require building a whole new body for it and it would basically be an entirely new avatar at that point rather than this one back to life. Other than that Menoth takes a rather distant role towards the affairs of  the material plane, he sent the avatar, grants spells and gives people visions but never does anything else.

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On the topic of lack of fire damage on the sword, it seems like the class is, overall, kinda empty. For being a giant robot who hits hard, I don't seem to be... well, hitting very hard. This was at like level 4 that I really noticed this, but I was doing terrible damage-wise for having a strength of 28 and a 4d8 damage weapon.
It is likley you would have to take sword and shield fighting feats and power attack to boost your damage, unfortunately sword and board is not exactly a great fighting style but the hope is that the high Str compensates for that (remember to hit people with your shield). I would be intrigued to find out what you are comparing it to though. 

Also bear in mind that your damage output should take a dramatic leap at level 10 due to the ability to buy extra attacks or boost damage.

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I appreciate that I'm like a mostly indestructable thing, what with nearly unlimited free counterspells and fairly high armor class... But then I get roasted like marshmallows by a dragon's breath weapon, and a couple lucky 20s managed to take out a good portion of my health, and the dr is too broken up to mitigate it much...

I cant make it completely indestructible. It already has a rather high AC and defences no other character is likley to have. Low Saves are what you pay for having the construct immunities, that was Olcecamo's decision not mine.

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And then its difficult to recover health; unless I can craft like a warforged.
This is what you pay for playing a Construct. In return you get a whole stack of immunities.

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Its got weird and really overpowered abilities attached all over and they don't seem to be helping much with its problems. It gets like 20 abilities for its capstone and gets kinda not much aside from armor class and targeted magic immunity at low levels.
The capstone is like that to prepare it for Epic levels and part of a desire to fit the full extent of its abilities into 20 levels. However I will look at some lower level abilities if it feels empty. I dont know where I will get them from considering the source material is basically sapped dry by this point...

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It gets alot of immunities with the divine protection ability that constructs are already typically immune to, at least as far as I thought I knew.
Bear in mind that Divine Protection removes those effects rather than granting immunity. It lists nearly every status effect in the SRD because that is my replacement ability for the poorly written Iron Heart Surge. Supposedly if you managed to change your type (and thus lose your immunities) it would still be helpful but most of the things there are just there for completeness.

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The dr seems kinda clumped up (though I guess I'm used to them being like dr 1/2 hd or whatever), and some of the abilities seem unessecerially verbose, like bringing up a quasiexistant con score for the unstoppable ability when just saying it gets a certain amount of bonus hp per level seems less confusing.
The DR was added to fill gaps at those levels in the first warjack class I made and they were then basically inherited by the other classes as I make them using a template. It is only supposed to be a minor ability rather than a vital part of the defensive abilities. As far as the HP thing this is actually less verbose than posting a table of all the HP value changes at each level, it is no more difficult to work out than the HP for a normal character the table would put a huge break in the text.

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Actually I lied, thats not finally, this is: I didn't even know about the other warjack classes before just now, so if there's any trends I should have picked up on from those to figure out where this slots in, I've missed it. I think I'll go look into those, with any luck it shall sate my giant robots smashing things desire.
I am actually doing some work on a 4th one at the moment, the Khadoran Drago. Khadoran engineering is simple and robust thus drago is really good at charging into stuff and murdering it with his dual axes but he doesn't have any of the frills the others have like spell like or supernatural abilities. Should be interesting but probably low tier 4/high tier 5 as opposed to the rest of these which are (hopefully) low tier 3/high tier 4.

Offline estradus

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Re: The Avatar of Menoth
« Reply #15 on: October 23, 2012, 10:56:21 AM »
You make good points! I guess I have only one real qualm still and thats the lopsided immunities. Instead of being super-immune to strange subsets it could do better with a wider range of lesser resistances; like having a less controvertial SR instead of counterspelling at no spell or action cost; then it could get some elemental resistances more comfortably. If you already have construct immunities, do you really need an iron heart surge-like ability?

I'm not sure if its more powerful or not, but I had more fun with the anaxim class; There were many more interesting things I could do and the combat felt more like what I expected from it; I guess thats what I mean by it didnt seem like it was hitting hard enough, it wasn't hitting as hard as it felt like it should.

I guess I play with giant robots alot; my second character was a warforged warblade with a bastard sword and a sheild. It might just be nostalgia or that it was the most powerful character we'd had so far, but this doesnt seem as powerful as that was. Could just be that this classes power doesn't feel as powerful, I can't feel impressed by the attacks, sorta lacking an emotional connection at the point of impact. Sorry, I'm rambling a bit... Again I'm speaking only from a low level perspective; higher levels are harder for me to balance, especially with these monster classes...

I don't unerstand the teirs... I should probably look into those at some point if I continue to talk to people on these forums. Though I should say I like the looks of your other two warjack classes (I haven't given them an in-depth look yet) and being a fan of charge in etc combat I daresay I like the looks of this Khadoran Drago already. Will it be limited to its axes, or will it be able to access other weapons it might find or get from another class ability or something? Much as I am kinda displeased by spell-like abilities in general, I hope that if you're not including them you are replacing it with an interesting manner of combat versatility and some means of resisting the general weaknesses of a direct combat class. I look foreward to taking a look at that one as well.

Offline Concerned Ninja Citizen

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Re: The Avatar of Menoth
« Reply #16 on: October 23, 2012, 11:03:39 AM »
On Sacred Ward: I would change the wording to make it clear up front that you can only counter things that target you.

Right now it's easy to read "any incoming spell" and miss the "may only counter spells that target it directly" caveat.

Also, this:

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it may not counter an area of effect spell that effects it unless it is the original target.

Is somewhat confusing. What is an example of an area of effect spell with an original target?

Clarity issues aside, this also has power issues. You are correct that standard counterspelling doesn't allow a save and that it sucks as a tactic. However, standard counterspelling requires a spellcraft roll to identify, requires you to expend a spell slot, and requires you to have the specific spell you're countering ready to cast.

Countering with Dispel Magic is less restrictive but it still requires a dispel check and the expenditure of a spell slot.

Considering all that, I think Sacred Ward which can be used several times per round, runs off faith points which replenish themselves every turn, and requires no roll at all is overpowered for lv3 if not just in general.

I'd alter it thus: Limit to once per round. Possibly make it an immediate action, possibly just a free action with a 1/rnd limit.

Require a roll. Maybe an attack roll vs caster's CL+ any bonuses vs dispelling.

Have the FP cost = the level of the spell to be countered.

Offline littha

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Re: The Avatar of Menoth
« Reply #17 on: October 23, 2012, 01:34:25 PM »
Well this is getting a lot of replies.... ok to answers.
If you already have construct immunities, do you really need an iron heart surge-like ability?
Not really no, it is however one of the abilities it has in the source material...

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I'm not sure if its more powerful or not, but I had more fun with the anaxim class; There were many more interesting things I could do and the combat felt more like what I expected from it; I guess thats what I mean by it didnt seem like it was hitting hard enough, it wasn't hitting as hard as it felt like it should.
I shall have to run some comparisons, the damage should be fairly high considering the Str score but maybe at low levels it might need a bit more punch...

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I guess I play with giant robots alot; my second character was a warforged warblade with a bastard sword and a sheild. It might just be nostalgia or that it was the most powerful character we'd had so far, but this doesnt seem as powerful as that was. Could just be that this classes power doesn't feel as powerful, I can't feel impressed by the attacks, sorta lacking an emotional connection at the point of impact. Sorry, I'm rambling a bit... Again I'm speaking only from a low level perspective; higher levels are harder for me to balance, especially with these monster classes...
Well, with no maneuvers it is bound to seem less interesting. I was hoping the spell like abilities would make up for that.

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I don't unerstand the teirs... I should probably look into those at some point if I continue to talk to people on these forums. Though I should say I like the looks of your other two warjack classes (I haven't given them an in-depth look yet) and being a fan of charge in etc combat I daresay I like the looks of this Khadoran Drago already. Will it be limited to its axes, or will it be able to access other weapons it might find or get from another class ability or something? Much as I am kinda displeased by spell-like abilities in general, I hope that if you're not including them you are replacing it with an interesting manner of combat versatility and some means of resisting the general weaknesses of a direct combat class. I look foreward to taking a look at that one as well.
Drago will be stuck with Axes, warjacks are generally constructed with their weapons. My current draft has him gain Frenzy points (like the faith points here) for hitting things and he can spend them on getting pounce for a round or the like. He isnt complete enough to post yet (and I had better finish this first)

On Sacred Ward: I would change the wording to make it clear up front that you can only counter things that target you.

Right now it's easy to read "any incoming spell" and miss the "may only counter spells that target it directly" caveat.

Also, this:

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it may not counter an area of effect spell that effects it unless it is the original target.

Is somewhat confusing. What is an example of an area of effect spell with an original target?

Not really thought about it but... Chain Lightning possibly?

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Clarity issues aside, this also has power issues. You are correct that standard counterspelling doesn't allow a save and that it sucks as a tactic. However, standard counterspelling requires a spellcraft roll to identify, requires you to expend a spell slot, and requires you to have the specific spell you're countering ready to cast.
Which would be why it sucks.

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Considering all that, I think Sacred Ward which can be used several times per round, runs off faith points which replenish themselves every turn, and requires no roll at all is overpowered for lv3 if not just in general.
The hope is you would spend some of your faith points on other things, I may need to add an additional use for them at low levels. I had originally just used the Permanent Spell Turning effect Oslecamo used in the Monster of legend class before altering it to this because I needed some way of spending faith points. The original monster just has flat immunity to magic so I needed a way to emulate that (I have a burning hatred of the spell resistance rules) and permanent immunity to magic is even stronger than this.


I may make it an immediate action but I don't want to put a roll in there.

Offline phaedrusxy

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Re: The Avatar of Menoth
« Reply #18 on: October 23, 2012, 02:44:05 PM »
I'm more concerned about someone funneling all of their faith points into Menoth's Might.

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Menoth's Might (Su): The power of Menoth constantly surges through the Avatar, it may spend faith points to enhance its abilities.  Each faith point spent allows it to make an additional attack at its highest attack bonus with one of its weapons. In addition faith points may be spent to increase the Avatar's accuracy or damage. After declaring an attack but before rolling to see if it hits the Avatar may spend a faith point, if it does roll two d20 instead of 1 and take the best result. Faith points may also be spent to boost damage, if a faith point is spent before damage is rolled the total damage of the attack is multiplied by 1.5. Spending faith points is a Free action.
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Offline littha

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Re: The Avatar of Menoth
« Reply #19 on: October 23, 2012, 02:49:36 PM »
All of the jacks do that, though the other two don't get iterative attacks (due to their natural weapons). If you funnelled all your faith points into it you would gain 1-4 extra attacks a round (at the exchange of making most of your class features nonfunctional) with a 1 handed weapon with no source of extra damage dice (sneak attack etc).

The actual damage output even spending 4 points on that is only slightly higher than a volley archer build that puts out a similar number of attacks (Assuming your volley build has sneak attack or the like).
« Last Edit: October 23, 2012, 02:54:23 PM by littha »