Author Topic: Comments thread  (Read 6354 times)

Offline littha

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Comments thread
« on: December 02, 2012, 03:04:17 PM »
If you have any comments on the project, feel free to post them here.

Offline Garryl

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Re: Comments thread
« Reply #1 on: December 02, 2012, 04:16:36 PM »
I'm not so sure that locking the total stat adjustments to that of the original creature is the best idea, especially for creatures with very lopsided bonuses/penalties or with very large bonuses compared to their CR. I'm also not sure that BaB and saves should necessarily be tied so tightly to the expected combat role. But, hey, as long as they are just guidelines like the Pirate's Code (rather than hard and fast rules), I'm cool with it.

Offline littha

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Re: Comments thread
« Reply #2 on: December 02, 2012, 04:23:01 PM »
Well the thread is entitled Monster Building Guidelines. :lol

In all seriousness If I come across a monster that has ability scores that are too extreme for its CR I will cut them back a bit and if a melee monster has too strong abilities I will drop their saves or BAB. I just needed guidelines for context :D.

Offline phaedrusxy

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Re: Comments thread
« Reply #3 on: December 02, 2012, 04:26:34 PM »
I think the rules on what level of spells they get need to be modified to take into account lower levels of play. As written now, it only cares about what the maximum level is. So I could make CR 6 monster with a 7th level SLA, and it wouldn't be considered "caster". I know that's obviously not the intent, but I'm just illustrating my point.

How about:

1) you're considered a caster if you have access to spells of the same level as a wizard of your level would have
2) a "mundane" (I don't like melee as the distinction here, and would suggest replacing it with mundane) may not have any spells higher than half the maximum the "caster" could have
3) and anything else is 3/4ths or less (all rounded down).

Of course clean the wording up (because mine sucks), but hopfully you get the idea.

Examples:
An 8th level "caster" monster could have spells or spell-like abilities up to 4th level. A "mundane" could have Spells or SLAs no higher than 2nd level, and anything else could have no higher than 3rd level.

I don't really see why the "melees" (which I'd rename to "mundanes") are capped at 4 skill points per level. Skill points have such a negligible impact on power, and the role of "melee" is not mutually exclusive with "skilled". I'd at least advocate raising that to 6, but perhaps reserve 8 sp/lvl for those monsters with no spells of higher than half what an equal level caster could produce, and which have no more than 3/4 BAB progressions.
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Offline Prime32

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Re: Comments thread
« Reply #4 on: December 02, 2012, 04:32:14 PM »
I don't like melee as the distinction here, and would suggest replacing it with mundane
Brute?

Offline littha

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Re: Comments thread
« Reply #5 on: December 02, 2012, 04:49:10 PM »
I think the rules on what level of spells they get need to be modified to take into account lower levels of play. As written now, it only cares about what the maximum level is. So I could make CR 6 monster with a 7th level SLA, and it wouldn't be considered "caster". I know that's obviously not the intent, but I'm just illustrating my point.

How about:

1) you're considered a caster if you have access to spells of the same level as a wizard of your level would have
2) a "mundane" (I don't like melee as the distinction here, and would suggest replacing it with mundane) may not have any spells higher than half the maximum the "caster" could have
3) and anything else is 3/4ths or less (all rounded down).

Of course clean the wording up (because mine sucks), but hopfully you get the idea.

Examples:
An 8th level "caster" monster could have spells or spell-like abilities up to 4th level. A "mundane" could have Spells or SLAs no higher than 2nd level, and anything else could have no higher than 3rd level.

I don't really see why the "melees" (which I'd rename to "mundanes") are capped at 4 skill points per level. Skill points have such a negligible impact on power, and the role of "melee" is not mutually exclusive with "skilled". I'd at least advocate raising that to 6, but perhaps reserve 8 sp/lvl for those monsters with no spells of higher than half what an equal level caster could produce, and which have no more than 3/4 BAB progressions.

Thanks for the Suggestions :D. I am hesetant to put SLA users in the same category as spellcasters for balancing purposes, with the way you have that written out a monster with one strong SLA is treated the same as a full caster, even if its primary focus is towards melee combat. I agree I need to come up with a better word than Melee for class distinctions as it should cover ranged attackers as well but mundane dosen't seem to be the right word as Paladins and Rangers need to fit into that particular area and they are certainly not mundane...

Ignoring titles at the moment I have three basic classifications (With some Examples):
Spellcaster
 Wizard
 Cleric
 Warlock
 Druid

Melee
 Scout
 Ranger
 Paladin
 Fighter

Everyone Else
 Rogue
 Bard
 Artificer

The hope is that the primary damage dealing classes get their full BAB/Good saves whereas those who have other stuff to do get reduced stats.

The intent is to have a monster like a Balor sit in the melee grouping despite the fact it has a couple of high level SLAs. I certainly cant see a Balor going into the spellcaster group.

I may need another classification (Brute is a good name :D) for big smashy monsters like golems. They definitely don't need all good saves and full BAB due to their already high ability scores and unique abilities, maybe I'll have them in the Everyone else category.


These are however only guidelines, not hard and fast rules. Applying these is not going to be a hard and fast process whatever they end up saying. If there is a melee monster that should get 8 skill points then so be it, it would be somewhat of a outlier though.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2012, 08:42:24 AM by littha »

Offline bhu

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Re: Comments thread
« Reply #6 on: December 02, 2012, 10:05:53 PM »
Congrats Littha!!

Offline veekie

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Re: Comments thread
« Reply #7 on: December 04, 2012, 08:53:44 AM »
Seems that there are a lot of stat boosters on the classes. How does that work out for final attributes after PC equipment are factored in? I'm concerned they might overshoot level expectations for raw numbers.
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Offline littha

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Re: Comments thread
« Reply #8 on: December 04, 2012, 09:08:07 AM »
I generally find flat attribute bonuses to be less powerful than people always make out for everyone but spellcasters. The save DCs of the spellcaster types may be a little high (I will need to do some extensive testing in that regard) but the idea of these classes is to be around tier 2 or 3.

The succubus classes should thus be around the power of a good base class + 2 levels of a good PRC by the end.

A big part of my attraction to playing monstrous characters has always been the higher ability scores, the thought that your character is natively stronger or faster than a basic human was something intrinsically tied into the concept for me.

What I may do is increase the number of levels in each class, to spread out the bonuses more as I tend to balance off opportunity costs. More levels of monster class means less levels of awesome PRCs

Offline veekie

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Re: Comments thread
« Reply #9 on: December 04, 2012, 09:22:59 AM »
Well, monsters tend to have large attributes largely to offset the effects of not having wealth. While individually the bonuses are small, they stack up rather fast in terms of general competency. And packing them together also makes it less likely for groups to obtain access to your monster classes. After all, untyped stat bonuses are fairly broad +Xs which otherwise cose a lot to get.

Just a thought.
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Offline littha

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Re: Comments thread
« Reply #10 on: December 04, 2012, 03:16:15 PM »
I find ability bonuses are rather overpriced myself. One thing I had considered was making the ability bonuses in the classes Enhancement bonuses, that way they wont stack with commonly used items and wont be quite as strong.

Offline Prime32

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Re: Comments thread
« Reply #11 on: December 04, 2012, 03:30:47 PM »
I find ability bonuses are rather overpriced myself. One thing I had considered was making the ability bonuses in the classes Enhancement bonuses, that way they wont stack with commonly used items and wont be quite as strong.
You could go all the way - turn a dragon's natural armor into a dragonscale breastplate, a displacer beast's pelt into a cloak of displacement, etc. and allow players to turn parts of their enemies' corpses into loot.

Offline littha

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Re: Comments thread
« Reply #12 on: December 04, 2012, 03:34:28 PM »
I find ability bonuses are rather overpriced myself. One thing I had considered was making the ability bonuses in the classes Enhancement bonuses, that way they wont stack with commonly used items and wont be quite as strong.
You could go all the way - turn a dragon's natural armor into a dragonscale breastplate, a displacer beast's pelt into a cloak of displacement, etc. and allow players to turn parts of their enemies' corpses into loot.

I actually havent given out any natural armor, DR or miss chance bonuses yet but that is an idea.

Offline veekie

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Re: Comments thread
« Reply #13 on: December 04, 2012, 10:13:37 PM »
I find ability bonuses are rather overpriced myself. One thing I had considered was making the ability bonuses in the classes Enhancement bonuses, that way they wont stack with commonly used items and wont be quite as strong.
That should do the trick. The danger is mainly stacking bonuses past where they are meant to go.
Everything is edible. Just that there are things only edible once per lifetime.
It's a god-eat-god world.

Procrastination is the thief of time; Year after year it steals, till all are fled,
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Offline littha

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Re: Comments thread
« Reply #14 on: December 05, 2012, 10:14:23 PM »
All of the monsters have this now:

Quote
Ability Bonuses: A Succubus is infused with the pure essence of chaos and evil, their physical and mental abilities greatly supass those of most humans. To represent this they have enhanced stats given in the table above. These bonuses are Enhancement bonuses and thus do not stack with most items that increase your ability scores. All bonuses on the table are cumulative.

Additionally, the basic Barghest is done though I haven't finished writing up the alternate classes for it yet.

Offline phaedrusxy

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Re: Comments thread
« Reply #15 on: December 06, 2012, 12:55:53 PM »
I'd suggest specifying that those enhancement bonuses are extraordinary, so they don't go away in an AMF.
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Offline littha

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Re: Comments thread
« Reply #16 on: December 06, 2012, 01:11:01 PM »
I'd suggest specifying that those enhancement bonuses are extraordinary, so they don't go away in an AMF.

Agreed

Offline Prime32

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Re: Comments thread
« Reply #17 on: December 06, 2012, 01:22:02 PM »
Maybe show the total stat bonuses at each level? i.e. replace
Quote

Level
Base
Attack Bonus
Fort
Save
Ref
Save
Will
Save

Special

Ability Bonuses
1st+0+2+2+0Change Shape, Scent, Rage+2 Str, +2 Con
2nd+1+3+3+0Feed, Crushing Despair+2 Dex, +2 Cha
3rd+2+3+3+1Blink, Levitate+2 Str, +2 Int, +2 Wis
4th+3+4+4+1Misdirection, Dimention Door+2 Dex, +2 Cha, +2 Con
5th+3+4+4+1Large Size, Greater Barghest Hound+2 Str, +2 Wis, +2 Int
with
Quote
BaseFortRefWill
Ability Bonuses
LevelAttack BonusSaveSaveSaveSpecial-Str--Dex--Con--Int--Wis--Cha-
1st+0+2+2+0Change Shape, Scent, Rage+2+0+2+0+0+0
2nd+1+3+3+0Feed, Crushing Despair+2+2+2+0+0+2
3rd+2+3+3+1Blink, Levitate+4+2+2+2+2+2
4th+3+4+4+1Misdirection, Dimention Door+4+4+4+2+2+4
5th+3+4+4+1Large Size, Greater Barghest Hound+6+4+6+4+2+4

Offline Amechra

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Re: Comments thread
« Reply #18 on: December 06, 2012, 02:12:21 PM »
I agree with the above; and thanks for the Barghest; I've been needing a noice Barghest class for a while, ya know?
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Offline Garryl

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Re: Comments thread
« Reply #19 on: March 23, 2013, 04:08:03 AM »
Hey, Littha. Sorry for forgetting about this for so long. I promised you a Derro, and here you go. Also, some rules for combining two different races together.