Author Topic: [PF] Class imitating guide discussion  (Read 4072 times)

Offline Power

  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • ***
  • Posts: 687
  • Rolling a boulder up a hill
    • View Profile
[PF] Class imitating guide discussion
« on: June 24, 2015, 09:23:42 PM »
Dedicated discussion thread for the class imitating guide I wrote. Knock yourself out. Comments/feedback/criticisms/suggestions all welcome.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2015, 10:03:03 AM by Power »

Offline Calico

  • Member
  • **
  • Posts: 68
  • LFW
    • View Profile
Re: [PF] Class imitating guide discussion
« Reply #1 on: June 25, 2015, 04:27:23 PM »
I like the guide.  It'll be a handy reference.  I also have some questions.

How exactly does the Thuvian Alchemist provide dual extract/spell progression?  I read the copy that's up at Archives of Nethys.  Is that the same as what was originally printed?

The combination of archetypes you listed for replacing Brawler seemed to cover most of the tricks but I didn't see an unarmed damage progression.  Is this combination up to snuff in the damage department?

Nature Fang looked like it was written to replace slayers, but is it also the best way to replace the Ranger?

Ninja/Rogue vs Archeologist: I won't argue the archeologist being far more versatile, but can spells/other class features measure up to the circumstantial damage output provided by sneak attack?  If so, how?

Offline Power

  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • ***
  • Posts: 687
  • Rolling a boulder up a hill
    • View Profile
Re: [PF] Class imitating guide discussion
« Reply #2 on: June 26, 2015, 04:21:07 AM »
Thuvian Alchemist doesn't provide dual progression. It either progresses an arcane caster or an Alchemist. Essentially it doles out alchemist discoveries to arcane casters, since alchemists already have access to most of those discoveries and are mainly reduced to a more restricted list and gimped bombs. It's one of those Paizo prestige classes that looks like it's meant for a specific class but is so inadequate in advancing their class features that it's trash for actual members of that class and yet for pure spellcasters it's a straight upgrade because they can get another class's perks while still progressing their spellcasting. So it's actually more a Wizard prestige class than an Alchemist prestige class.

The Brawler replacement (Lore Warden + Martial Master) does not get unarmed damage progression, true, but typically unarmed is a bad choice of weapon anyway since it's a pain in the ass to upgrade.

Nature Fang as a Ranger substitute just stacks the Ranger Combat Style talent multiple times over and takes an animal companion. And Studied Target is generally preferable over the Ranger's Favored Enemy + casting Instant Enemy over and over again, although there are stunts to be performed with Instant Enemy.

As for Archaeologist vs Rogue, sneak attack is a bit too circumstantial in PF, really. Archaeologist Bard essentially hits more often for more damage, and he can also self-buff with Dance of a Hundred Cuts (which is basically the Bard's version of Divine Favor, except it likes courageous weapons), Heroism (does not stack with Dance of a Hundred Cuts), or even use self-target Call Weapon (1st level swift action) for a 1 round +2 to attack and damage. Instead of using Call Weapon, he can also get the Arcane Strike feat for another source of scaling attack damage. If you really want to do huge damage though, there's the Bard's Sonic Thrust 4th level spell (so level 10 Archaeologist), which you can combine with a Quick Draw feat to drop 10 large greatswords then launch them all at the enemy for upwards of 30d6+30 damage. At level 11 with a Discordant Voice feat that would reach 44d6+44. Paladins usually grab Sonic Thrust with the Unsanctioned Knowledge feat so they can combine it with Smite Evil for an instant kill.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2023, 05:21:37 PM by Power »

Offline Endarire

  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • ****
  • Posts: 1661
  • Smile! Jesus loves you!
    • View Profile
    • Greg Campbell's Portfolio
Re: [PF] Class imitating guide discussion
« Reply #3 on: June 30, 2015, 06:44:25 PM »
It's also Let's as in Let us.

Offline Power

  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • ***
  • Posts: 687
  • Rolling a boulder up a hill
    • View Profile
Re: [PF] Class imitating guide discussion
« Reply #4 on: June 01, 2020, 06:13:23 AM »
A few updates were made to the guide. Alchemist updated, Paladin updated, Rogue updated, Cleric, Witch, and Wizard entries added.
« Last Edit: June 01, 2020, 06:48:38 AM by Power »

Offline Power

  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • ***
  • Posts: 687
  • Rolling a boulder up a hill
    • View Profile
Re: [PF] Class imitating guide discussion
« Reply #5 on: April 04, 2022, 06:35:49 AM »
Updated a number of entries, added Medium entry, and hyperlinked everything.

Offline Annabeth

  • Lurker
  • *
  • Posts: 14
  • I'm new!
    • View Profile
Re: [PF] Class imitating guide discussion
« Reply #6 on: July 22, 2022, 06:18:31 AM »
I really like this guide.

Speaking of creating a barbarian-like character, my favorite option is Nature Fang Druid of Gorum with the Anger Inquisition, and Faithful (Gorum) ranger combat style (take Power Attack/Cleaving Finish/Improved Vital Strike).

Do you have any ideas about imitation magus? I was thinking of using the Runic Charge feat along with Pounce special attack to combine casting with a full-attack action. Maybe, Nature Fang Druid with the Plains Domain and Two-Weapon Fighting ranger combat style? I don't really see good options.


Offline Power

  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • ***
  • Posts: 687
  • Rolling a boulder up a hill
    • View Profile
Re: [PF] Class imitating guide discussion
« Reply #7 on: July 22, 2022, 09:46:34 AM »
If a GM allows you to take Inquisitions on Druids that aren't Nature Priests, that works. You can also play a plain old Inquisitor or play a Sacred Servant Paladin worshiping Ragathiel for the Rage subdomain or Anger inquisition. If you're going Anger inquisition on a character, I recommend dipping 1 level of Ulfen Guard to obtain a rage power (Barbarian level stacks with your domain power rage), qualifying you for the Extra Rage Power feat as well.

Also, using Runic Charge + Pounce is quite clever. Now, a plain Druid that's wildshaped into a pouncing shape can just Runic Charge with Natural Spell. Alternatively, any psychic spellcaster could Runic Charge while polymorphed, but to get Beast Shape II as a psychic spellcaster, you are typically either playing a Material Manipulator Mesmerist, a Psychic with the Rebirth discipline (using Mnemonic Esoterica), using the Samsaran's Mystic Past Life alternate racial trait to have been a Material Manipulator Mesmerist in your previous life, dipping a level of Loremaster (probably on Psychic) and spamming Secret of Magical Discipline feats (ideally your int should be high enough you can immediately obtain Secret of Magical Discipline as a bonus feat on Loremaster 1), just casting Limited Wish for a polymorph of your choosing, playing a Medium using the Archmage spirit to give yourself the Beast Shape or Monstrous Physique spell you desire while otherwise casting psychic spells, or playing a Sorcerer (or Blood Arcanist) with the Psychic bloodline (perhaps mixing it with Crossblooded to also obtain the Draconic bloodline of the Esoteric variant if you want to be able to Paragon Surge for all the spells on the Psychic spell list and swap out your 1st level bloodline power for a Bloodline Familiar), which will handily afford you access to all the polymorphing spells. It is also possible to spellcast while in beast shape as a divine or arcane spellcaster by using Grasping Tail + Mischievous Tail and casting Beastspeak (usually a stunt done by Shamans or Witches, but can also be done by Spell Sage Wizards and of course anyone with the Loremaster prestige class for Secret of Magical Discipline or using Samsaran Mystic Past Life). That will let you use verbal components and use your tail as a hand to fulfill somatic components. And you can obtain Beast Shape II and higher on any character by taking Fey Obedience (The Lantern King), perhaps using the Evangelist prestige class for faster advancement, and using Polymorph Any Object to Greater Polymorph yourself (or someone else) with what is almost certain to be a +7 duration factor (animal kingdom, same intelligence or lower) or higher (if you are turning into a mammal or a creature same size as you), at which point you have permanent duration.

Alternatively, the Skald can easily obtain pounce at a high level just by using Raging Song to give himself and any allies Greater Beast Totem. He is also capable of using Spell Kenning to cast Beast Shape II+ and Beastspeak (using Expanded Spell Kenning, Runes of the Crone, or Runes of the Old Faith).

In addition, you can obtain Pounce on any character by playing a Catfolk with the Claw Pounce feat and equipping Claw Blades so you can make manufactured weapon attacks with your catfolk claws for iteratives, but you will want 10 BAB, so you'll want to raise your BAB perhaps or just take it at level 13 if you are a 3/4 BAB class. Cleric into Holy Vindicator or Scar Seeker (perhaps dipping a level of a full BAB class at 5)? Cleric/Shaman 4 + Ranger 1 into Skyseeker? Wizard 4 + Fighter 1 into Eldritch Knight? Psychic 6 + Stargazer 3 into Esoteric Knight (Claw Pounce at 14)? Just get ready to take Prestigious Spellcaster feats if you go down that route.

You can also sort of imitate Spell Combat by using lesser metamagic rods of Quicken Spell, or using the Conductive or Spell Storing property on your melee weapon. That reminds me, there is a trick with the Magus where you use Quick Draw and keep drawing and using more spell storing weapons (dropping the previous one as a free action) to do a ridiculous amount of bonus attacks as each touch spell grants you another attack. Since the stored spell's touch attack does not, strictly speaking, need to be performed with the spell-storing weapon, it is perhaps possible to obtain as many bonus attacks as you have spell storing weapons on hand (which can get massive at high levels).

Lastly, the Ectoplasmatist Spiritualist has his own version of spell combat, but unless your GM generously lifts the "can only attack with one hand" requirement which makes no sense for a Spiritualist and undermines a lot of the Ectoplasmatist's perks while leaving it mostly as a rather inferior Magus (who at least benefits from Arcane Pool, arcana, and bonus feats), it isn't particularly worth using.
« Last Edit: November 20, 2023, 05:17:33 PM by Power »

Offline Annabeth

  • Lurker
  • *
  • Posts: 14
  • I'm new!
    • View Profile
Re: [PF] Class imitating guide discussion
« Reply #8 on: July 22, 2022, 10:39:12 AM »
Thanks for the detailed answer, there are many interesting options here. For myself, I'll stick with Wild Shape Druid using Runic Charge. Other times getting pounce takes too long - why does paizo hate the martial character so much?

Offline Power

  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • ***
  • Posts: 687
  • Rolling a boulder up a hill
    • View Profile
Re: [PF] Class imitating guide discussion
« Reply #9 on: July 22, 2022, 11:08:00 AM »
No problem. As for the pounce question, Paizo is bad at game balance, honestly, and apparently considers the ability of martials to both move and full attack to be too powerful but, as ever, doesn't seem to mind it as much when a spellcaster is doing it, like a Magus casting Bladed Dash with spell combat. There are a lot of ways to sidestep that kind of problem though, including playing ranged builds or developing extreme melee reach. They came up with the ridiculous Vital Strike feat line as a type of consolation prize, but no one really uses it because it's trash. Still, the presence of Vital Strike probably constitutes another reason they're not keen on easy pouncing, especially below level 11.

You can also always get pounce with just 4 levels of Weretouched Shifter nowadays (use Tiger or, preferably, Deinonychus aspect). And there was a stunt we used to not mention too much, where you dip 1 level of Sohei Monk to take Mounted Skirmisher as a bonus feat (and Monk bonus feats ignore prerequisites, which is quite handy here). A number of spellcasters can also just take the Experimental Spellcaster feat to obtain the Accelerate word of power, giving people extra move actions each round.

Ulfen Guard 1 can also be used with a few Extra Rage Power feats to obtain Greater Beast Totem on any class that has a rage class feature.

Anyway, enjoy, and remember that a Druid can take Dreamed Secrets to cast Wizard spells. Handy in general, but also relevant if you want more touch spells for your Druid.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2023, 05:37:12 PM by Power »

Offline Annabeth

  • Lurker
  • *
  • Posts: 14
  • I'm new!
    • View Profile
Re: [PF] Class imitating guide discussion
« Reply #10 on: July 22, 2022, 02:41:17 PM »
I got the impression that Dreamed Secrets feat no longer works with spell known FAQ.
Quote
The spell slots of a class can only be used to cast spells that appear on the spell list of that class.
It looks like Dreamed Secrets only allows you to prepare the chosen spell without modifying your spell list.

It's actually more like crappy game design that should be ignored, right? At least RAI is obvious. This FAQ seems to be causing more trouble than it's worth.

Offline Power

  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • ***
  • Posts: 687
  • Rolling a boulder up a hill
    • View Profile
Re: [PF] Class imitating guide discussion
« Reply #11 on: July 22, 2022, 07:01:29 PM »
The RAI is extremely clear on this feat. And honestly you can probably ignore that FAQ for the most part, since there are too many ways to cast Wizard spells on damn near everything these days and it was really just meant to nerf Paragon Surge -> Improved Eldritch Heritage (Arcane), although it did put a stop to UMDing Page of Spell Knowledge to just cast spells from any spellcaster's list. (You can still UMD a Ring of Spell Knowledge to avoid the level penalty for any arcane spontaneous spellcasters though.) And even after the FAQ came out, there was content printed that wouldn't work if you interpreted it at face value (like the 2nd Evangelist's boon from Deific Obedience (Urgathoa) or the 2nd Exalted's boon from Deific Obedience (Grandmother Spider) or the Ghost Whisperer feat). Bad inconsistent FAQs where they are clearly making up the rules as they go along and pretending it always worked that way while ignoring the new FAQ part of the time and trying to keep it into account another part of the time (and thus essentially having it both ways depending on the context) is probably one of those most odious Paizo habits.

Far as I can tell any GM that allows Dreamed Secrets allows it to work as intended tbh.

Oh yeah, another piece of advice about Druids: People seem to forget that you can keep preparing a lower-level domain spell into higher level domain slots, so if there's a domain spell you want extra castings of (or a level where the spell sucks or is too situational), remember that. If there is a single domain spell you want to cast loads of times on a regular basis though, you can just use Preferred Spell or Greater Spell Specialization to spontaneously cast it out of your regular slots. Sometimes it's just fun to play a Smoke subdomain Druid and have every spell slot from 3rd level onwards be Stinking Cloud with metamagics on top (bonus points for using Wayang Spellhunter and Magical Lineage so you get Persistent Spell and Quicken Spell going sooner).
« Last Edit: June 07, 2023, 05:41:10 PM by Power »

Offline Annabeth

  • Lurker
  • *
  • Posts: 14
  • I'm new!
    • View Profile
Re: [PF] Class imitating guide discussion
« Reply #12 on: May 29, 2023, 09:19:48 AM »
I've never noticed this archetype before, but Shoanti Shaman can be used to build a barbarian-like druid/cleric, by providing the Destruction Domain (Rage Subdomain).


Offline Power

  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • ***
  • Posts: 687
  • Rolling a boulder up a hill
    • View Profile
Re: [PF] Class imitating guide discussion
« Reply #13 on: June 06, 2023, 01:15:59 PM »
Druids can take the Rage subdomain or Anger inquisition with the right archetypes, yes, but it's not exactly rewarding to do so. You get slow rage progression and the Druid's Nature Bond only provides 1 domain so you're stuck with those awful domain spells. (It has Moonstruck at a 2 level penalty, replacing Harm!) I hope you really like spamming True Strike on your martial Druid. Better get Wayang Spellhunter and Magical Lineage on your True Strike spell and a Quicken metamagic feat so you can prepare quickened True Strike into your 3rd level and higher domain slots. I guess Bull's Strength can be used as an out-of-combat buff? Well, if you want to you can multiclass a level of Ulfen Guard with your Druid to get a Barbarian rage power that stacks with your existing rage class feature's levels before level 12, which also qualifies you for the Extra Rage Power feat early.

Druid does make a good multiclass for high-level Barbarians though. After 11 levels of Barb, you should really get out of Barbarian for the most part and going Druid is one of the smarter calls you can make, especially if you take Shaping Focus at 15 and Planar Wild Shape at 17 (or also 15 with feat retraining) and take a decent domain (unless your Barbarian has an animal companion that stacks with Druid levels maybe). It's a good thematic combo, advances martial prowess, and gives you much-needed flexibility for high levels, and Barbarians should have a positive wis score anyway. Other multiclassing options include Shaman, Cleric, or maybe even Empyreal wildblooded Sorcerer into Eldritch Knight (but you'll have to deal with arcane spell failure, unless you have Combat Stamina, Arcane Armor Training, and hopefully a mithral armor that only has 10% spellfailure, so probably Kikko armor).
« Last Edit: June 06, 2023, 01:20:45 PM by Power »