Min/Max Boards

I suppose the closest equivalent in D20 is one of "those" super-powerful builds requiring 3 classes and 5 prestige classes that is Tier Pun-Pun when every element of the combo is finished but Tier 20 every level up to that point.

So like some kind of Ultimate Magus/Sublime Chord/Master Spellthief monstrosity that is still casting 5th-level spells at level 13 but has 9th level spells at 19 with a caster level (conservatively) pegged somewhere in the 60's?

It seems like starting out as a fighter and only taking like 1 or 2 levels then going into wizard or something might be worth it. Otherwise, I agree multiclassing was better.

If memory serves, Fighter 3 (ish) is the big reason to Dual-Class instead of Multiclass, and is a good breakpoint for dual-classing because you get an extra half-attack per round or something (and maybe an extra proficiency point?), because Multiclass Fighters can't get Weapon Specialization, but if you Dual-Class out of Fighter into Cleric or something you can combine Weapon Specialization with good self-buffs from the Cleric class, or be a Wizard that has actual hit points and is better at using stabby things in the event of an AMF or something.

Alternatively, I think Thief is considered another good class to dual-class out of because it levels fast, but then stops getting useful abilities.  If someone else can take over the Thief-y things for a while, then changing out of Thief into Magic User is potent.  Or maybe just eat the XP penalties for using your Thief skills because even if you get your Magic User levels slowly, it's still more worthwhile than waiting a bunch of levels to only get another backstab multiplier.

While I did play in a 2e game, and said 2e game is probably the second-longest running game I was ever part of, I was a wee lil' one when that happened and I had nowhere near the level of system mastery I can claim in 3e.  That said, I *also* play video games, and of course that means I've played Baldur's Gate, so I'm well aware of the concept of Dual Classing and how it makes Humans a super cool race even though they can't get that kinda silly broken 19 Strength that Half-Orcs can from the beginning.  Furthermore, there is another thing from older editions that clearly didn't make it into later editions: class-specific experience tables.  I can imagine that class-specific experience tables was a bit of a bookkeeping addition, but in retrospect it actually seems like it went a long way towards giving some help to classes that kinda need it (Thieves) and putting off the slow march towards Wizards conquering the world.

So what I'd like to know is... How did Dual Classing break 2e? Were there any particularly disruptive abuses of the system? Did anyone play with any Dual Classing Houserules, and how did they turn out for you?

Similar idea for experience tables, except... I just kinda want to know why they went away in favor of uniform tables.  I guess it wouldn't have made sense to have them since, mathematically, it would likely cause problems a la the 'Experience is a River' concept, but then they went and put in Item Creation feats...

I don't really care how it's spelled, I just wish Firefox could also call you out on being full of shit.

If every wizard does it, then every other wizard will know to check for secret pages.  What's more, the 100gp per level cost is only significant early in a character's career.  Copying a full spellbook is 10k gold, which may sound ridiculously high to a 1st-level character, but is a pittance to a 15th-level character.

Link, don't bother.  SorO is doing the usual SorO thing and pulling random garbage out of his ass trying to argue that he's right and we're all inferior peasants to him when the reality is that 3.5's editing is just crap, with some books demonstrating that more than others (Races of the Dragon being one of the bigger offenders).  It's not worth arguing with him about this, anymore.  The OP has already gotten the full story from people who actually know what they're talking about.

On the other hand, SorO, I will tell you this: remove your disgusting mis-quote of my statement from your post.  I've got some idea of how old you are simply by knowing how old I am and how long I've been hanging around this community, and in spite of my own flaws even I'm appalled by how childish you're acting.  Even I've learned a new trick of admitting a mistake, re-evaluating my knowledge, and revising my position to better suit that knowledge, so you've got no excuse.

This is wrong. Artificer, beguiler, dread necromancer, and warmage know all their spells. They just don't normally gain spell slots of the higher levels until X level. Heighten is unnecessary here.

Actually, it isn't wrong.  Start with the entry in Warmage and the Versatile Spellcaster feat (the Beguiler and Dread Necromancer use the same boilerplate):

When a warmage gains access to a new level of spells, he automatically knows all the spells for that level listed on the warmage’s spell list.

You can use two spell slots of the same level to cast a spell you know that is one level higher. For example, a sorcerer with this feat can expend two 2nd-level spell slots to cast any 3rd-level spell he knows.

Say a Warmage with Versatile Spellcaster just hits 4th level.  He obviously knows his second-level spells because he has access to second level spells, he just gained 3 of them each day.  However, he does not know his 3rd-level spells because he hasn't gained the ability to cast 3rd-level spells from his class abilities.  He also doesn't gain that knowledge from Versatile Spellcaster because he has to know a 3rd-level spell beforehand to cast it using Versatile Spellcaster.  It's a catch 22.  Without Heighten Spell, a Warmage does not know spells of a higher level than usual, and therefore can't cast said spells with Versatile Spellcaster, and therefore doesn't meet the requirements for early entry.

Also, this trick isn't just limited to spontaneous spellcasting classes.  Anyone can take the Magical Training feat from PGtF to gain 3 Sorcerer cantrips per day, which satisfies the requirements for Versatile Spellcaster, and Versatile Spellcaster works for any of your classes, not just the ones that cast spontaneously.

Golems still get a Will Save, and even though they have a poor base save they have high HD and possibly also a Wisdom bonus, so Illusory Pit is as effective against Golems as it is against anything else.

Another handy thing about the "everyone is neutral" approach, the scope of divine magic is restricted ever so slightly to... divine things.

What pops as Lawful when you cast Detect Law?  Lawful Outsiders and Clerics and Paladins of Lawful Deities.  What pops as Evil when you cast Detect Evil?  Not the Assassin.  Hide/Move Silently no longer foiled by a first-level spell!

Not that Exalted means anything either.  Half of the definitions they give in that book simply use synonyms for Good like "benevolence" or "righteousness" with no definitional value and the other half are either things that are about as meaningful as "your special effects are a different color" or things that just flat out cause Int damage to the reader like Ravages.

Oh, no, giving away all your possessions except for a few rags and a walking stick is a totally empty, meaningless act.  Same with never killing a living creature, even if they try to kill you, or ascending to Sainthood because of your actions.

Get out of here.

Ehh, I see problems here...

1) You have the ability to cast Darkness, but what level is Darkness?  You don't have a spell list on which Darkness is at a particular level, you just have the ability to use that spell.  As such, even though you have the ability to cast Darkness, you don't have the ability to cast 2nd-level spells, and certainly not 2nd-level Arcane spells or 2nd-level Divine spells.

2) If you do not have an existing ability to cast spells in an Arcane (or Divine) spellcasting class, you don't gain the ability to cast spells in whatever Arcane (or Divine) spellcasting class you want at the first level of MT, because you did not belong to that class before your first level of MT.

3) I would very much shy away from using characters for PFS that have heavy rules-lawyering involved.  Unless your PFS group is small enough to basically only need 1 GM and you never play it outside your local PFS group, then maybe it's not so bad, but taking a character like this to a convention is going to spur someone into an argument against your character's validity.

In any case, if you go this route and get your game masters to play along, the best entry would be Cleric 2/Sorcerer 1.  It isn't necessarily that much stranger to be descended from both Celestials AND Fiends than one or the other.  If anything, you could say that a family that has shown that sort of disregard for the cosmic nature of their mates would suddenly start caring just because you're *maybe* 1/16th fiend or something.