Author Topic: Where's this "fun" I keep hearing about with gaming?  (Read 2541 times)

Offline kevin video

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Where's this "fun" I keep hearing about with gaming?
« on: December 03, 2015, 05:04:31 PM »
Those of you who recognize my user name, you already know that I've had absolutely no luck when it comes to finding a group that didn't have a dick DM. I personally was able to come up with 50 different write ups for how you can tell your DM is a complete dick, and all of those were from personal experience. I'm cursed. It's been a while since I last ranted. Mostly because the last time I did it, I was a player, and the GM not only found it and kicked me out of the group, but "shamed" me to the rest of the group, and had each of them turn on me despite the fact that I was right about everything. As such, I'll be a lot more careful about how I describe the situation.

This particular rant is mostly about players. Namely those who do their absolute best to break your game world, or just aren't that into it. Or worse, players who pout because they're not getting their way, and make the game less fun for other players with their complaining, and lethargy.

I quit my usual weekly group that I'd been in for going on seven years. It just wasn't fun anymore. Not for me, not for the majority of the players, but it was for the DM and his best friend from way back. The DM was running a pre-made adventure path that was supposed to award winning. I'm sure it is. I'm just not seeing it because he revised it and made it boring. The player enjoys it because he gets to do and play however he wants without consequence to him, yet the DM houserules on the fly for the rest of us. Heck, I remember playing a LN character who lost all of his class abilities, despite not being a divine class, because I was more "neutral" than "lawful" because I agreed with letting a chaotic character kill an enemy NPC that the DM felt was "redeemable" had I actually tried. Why do I care? I was going to kill him myself. But nope, all my class abilities now. Now I'm no better than a NPC warrior. Yet this player can literally shoot us in the back when the player is throwing a temper tantrum, and just randomly decides to take it out on us, yet he's still able to keep his alignment and powers because "well that's how chaotic works". Yeah, chaotic EVIL maybe. Just, ugh. Then when the DM had an NPC outsider appear and tell the PCs that they had a time limit to finish their mission or they were automatically going to die, I was done. The other players miss me, but I've never felt so relieved.
I'd been in two other games with that troublesome player, that I ran, and he derailed both of them. If he didn't get his way, he crossed his arms, pouted, complain about why even bothering playing or saying anything if I was just going to point out that his ideas were bad ones, and somehow managed to poison a couple of the other players against me. He made it out that I was the dick DM, and that he was perfectly innocent. I actually lost most of my players, twice, because of it, and both games got canceled. Thankfully I had a couple of players that sided with me, and let me know that I was never at fault. When I had to deal with him a third time, but this time I was the player, I thought it'd be different just because I was on the side lines. Nope. It's worse because there's no disciplinary action this time around. Done.

Now I'm running a new game with a completely fresh group. I gathered them all from the local PFS players. I'd ran scenarios with them before, and they all seemed to be fine. Little did I know that two of them were actually personality clones of the troublesome player I had before, and they're dating each other. Also, two others are extremely good friends with those two, and if I kicked out the others, they'd go too. Here's what's going on:
1) The male player is all about optimization. That's fine. I normally don't mind that. But he's the kind of guy that sifts through hours of forums and posts desperately trying to find ways to break every imaginable build out there, and have the proof/references to shove in a GM's face so they can say "It's allowed. See? This random guy on this sketchy forum full of world breakers says it is." You know, despite the fact that RAW and RAI it's not even remotely legal, and no GM in existence would ever actually allow it. Even the game creators themselves have it on the FAQ stating that "No, you can not do this." So of course he tried to get away with everything, and when he gets shut down, he immediately gets defensive to the point of making it awkward (probably in hopes that I'll back down and just let him do whatever), or pout and whine. He's also very obsessive that everyone else in the group must be broken and optimized. No having fun. Crush, kill, destroy only. Make those characters are ridiculous as you can, and here's the forum threads to help. If you're not willing to do that, get out, or let him build your character for you because obviously you don't know what you're doing.
2) The female player is all about doing whatever she wants, even if the mechanics and rules say it's not possible. If she can't immediately do the best and most powerful action that round of combat, she won't do anything at all. Why? Because she can't get there and be powerful right now. And if she moves her character to a location, she'll just be a target that'll get attacked without being able to retaliate. If it's in a book just as an example, she wants it, even if it's just a context example. In the Dragon ball Z RPG, there's a side bar that talks about Superman's power level and how it compares to everyone else in the series. "It references Superman. I want to be Superman. Don't tell me I can't be Superman. See, right there it talks about him. Therefore I can play him." Also, if a character has an animal of some kind, she wants the "improved" version from the start, and have the ability to teleport and have super endurance so it can go running or flying infinitely without a break, but still magically appear at her side even if she left it at home. At level 1.
For now, I'm just seeing where this goes. It's only been two sessions, and I already feel an ulcer develop. It's amazing how quickly someone can change when PFS rules aren't part of the equation.

Does anyone remember when games were supposed to be fun? Where you just sat down at the table with friends, laugh it up, stereotype yourselves with Cheetos and Mountain Dew, roll some dice, and role play instead of roll play? I mean, I've heard of this. Never actually experienced it myself. Or I might have, but all of the bad stuff has just completely wiped all memory of the good stuff. I've been gaming for nearly 25 years. I've played in over a dozen groups, and had so many characters that I can't even try to count. During that time I think I've enjoyed myself a handful of times. At the very least I've been indifferent. I'm honestly debating if gaming is even for me at this point. And I don't play video games. Too broke for that. Haven't touched a game or console since the PS2 came out.
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Offline bhu

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Re: Where's this "fun" I keep hearing about with gaming?
« Reply #1 on: December 04, 2015, 01:39:48 AM »
There are good people who share this hobby.  Th problem is, with it being such a niche, none of them may reside where you live.  It's why I do pbp, even though they tend to fall apart.  Because the locals are asshats.  I've even had one tell me he didn't give a damn whether the group had fun or not, he ran the campaign for his own personal amusement, and his amusement was at the expense of his players.  Cue two weeks later and he's wondering where everyone went.

The odds of you finding a group of similar style and temperament locally aren't always good depending on how big the scene there is.  And online the group you like may be difficult or impossible to play with due to time differences.

Offline kevin video

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Re: Where's this "fun" I keep hearing about with gaming?
« Reply #2 on: December 04, 2015, 02:05:32 AM »
Yeah, that's always an issue too. I've found that local cons are by far the worst because you have no idea who you're playing with until you sit down. I've met some of the most psychotic rules lawyers imaginable. Like, screaming, psychotic. They know the very latest rules that came out that second, and if you aren't on their level, you better get out of their way or they'll eat you for breakfast. It's frightening. Or the people that won't shower. Yeesh.

But I know the sad reality of GMs who enjoy the game for their own amusement, and not for the players'. That was the group I talk about on here that got me booted from the group. I was called "pretentious" for thinking I could out-GM him despite the fact that I do when it comes to homebrew games. It's about the fun, not seeing your players cry as you once again slaughter their PCs for the tenth time, cackling all the way.
I reject your reality and substitute my own.

When God gives you lemons... it's time to find a new God.

Offline bhu

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Re: Where's this "fun" I keep hearing about with gaming?
« Reply #3 on: December 04, 2015, 02:15:18 AM »
Oh no this guy never killed players.  If you kill their characters you can't torture them. 

It was a 2e campaign.  We start off being told we are some of the most powerful men in the known world.  At 2nd Level.  He then introduced a bizarre homebrewed crit table, which didn't do damage but imposed some sort of game altering penalty on you.  Crits were only fixable with a Restoration spell.  There was no Cleric in the world high enough to cast the spell.  The party had no Cleric either cause he didn't want any of us playing Clerics.  So crits were effectively permanent, slowly accumulating penalties.  Identify was unusable, so you never knew what your magic items did.  When people started quitting his defense was "I told you this was an old school game.  In old school games PC's are just the DM's bitch with no right to complain, and they ruined the game when they changed that."

Unsurprisingly he was quickly reminded that he mentioned nothing of the sort as everyone left en masse.  To this day no one will let him DM.  It probably doesn't help that he's also a little crazy.

Offline kevin video

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Re: Where's this "fun" I keep hearing about with gaming?
« Reply #4 on: December 04, 2015, 02:31:41 AM »
I know the torture thing. I've had three GMs that will haunt me forever. One couldn't kill you fast enough. Then you had the one that constantly killed you, but wouldn't let you die. You just came back worse each time. Then there was the one who enjoyed breaking your character's psyche ala Cult of Cthulhu despite not being a CoC game by any stretch. He just enjoyed watching the player agonize while the character contemplated suicide.
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When God gives you lemons... it's time to find a new God.

Offline ketaro

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Re: Where's this "fun" I keep hearing about with gaming?
« Reply #5 on: December 04, 2015, 03:23:53 AM »
Sounds like you've not (or at least rarely) had the chance to actually play this game with people. A full cast of like-able people. Like, real people.
And no, I don't mean just in person at a table.

Those are also the kind of terrible people I regularly assume inhabit the PbP sites that house the majorities of a certain game's community, thus why I've quite rarely bothered to go outside MinMax for my PbP needs (at least after I had eventually finally found this place). Yes, a terrible assumption to make, but I've had no run of bad luck with games yet by sticking to it. There is literally no one here I would ever want to never play with. ;)

That's not to say I haven't tried playing games on other sites with larger communities, I've just never really run across any that had a full cast of people I liked when I did play with them.

It was an insane level of luck that I managed to find an awesome group of people who were interested in D&D nearly a decade ago in highschool and have never not enjoyed playing with them still today. Shoot, I live with half of them even -_-'

Offline kevin video

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Re: Where's this "fun" I keep hearing about with gaming?
« Reply #6 on: December 04, 2015, 05:22:56 AM »
Well... That's not 100% true. I have, it's just that they're usually mixed in with the rest, and their numbers unfortunately pale in comparison. If it were legit possible, I'd totally just have all of them in a group, but sadly a lot of them moved away. That said, there's one or two that moved away that I'm not said left. The "always on their phone" or "always playing games on their laptop" 'not paying attention' type players. Very distracting, and incredibly annoying.

If I had the system, I'd try Roll20. I've seen it used, as well as others, for both 4th and 5th D&D, and even seen a game of Pathfinder ran. I'd want to give that a shot, but only to play since I have no idea how to use the system, and my system is very old (being broke sucks).
I reject your reality and substitute my own.

When God gives you lemons... it's time to find a new God.

Offline Amechra

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Re: Where's this "fun" I keep hearing about with gaming?
« Reply #7 on: December 04, 2015, 12:04:37 PM »
Well... That's not 100% true. I have, it's just that they're usually mixed in with the rest, and their numbers unfortunately pale in comparison. If it were legit possible, I'd totally just have all of them in a group, but sadly a lot of them moved away. That said, there's one or two that moved away that I'm not said left. The "always on their phone" or "always playing games on their laptop" 'not paying attention' type players. Very distracting, and incredibly annoying.

If I had the system, I'd try Roll20. I've seen it used, as well as others, for both 4th and 5th D&D, and even seen a game of Pathfinder ran. I'd want to give that a shot, but only to play since I have no idea how to use the system, and my system is very old (being broke sucks).

If you want to give something not-D&D a try, I can pass your info on to a friend. He's A) a good egg, B) pretty good at vetting players, and C) only plays filthy, filthy storygames.

That last one might be a sticking point, but hey - sometimes you just want to play a game that lasts a few sessions and then stops (for reasons other than "Why didn't this person's mother strangle them in their sleep?")
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Offline PlzBreakMyCampaign

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Re: Where's this "fun" I keep hearing about with gaming?
« Reply #8 on: December 27, 2015, 01:51:51 PM »
Mostly because the last time I did it, I was a player, and the GM not only found it and kicked me out of the group ...
So he proved that he was dick? You knew he was of non-good alignment. It seems twisted but logical.

Quote
The male player is all about optimization. ... If you're not willing to do that, get out, or let him build your character for you because obviously you don't know what you're doing.
That's fine. Have him help everyone else, but you build his character. Build him a Truenamer. Watch the struggle and drink his tears. If he doesn't agree to those arbitrary but min-maxable guidlines ... throw him at my info dump. I'd like to see him break my fixes. Seriously. It'll be released in a few days.

Quote
2) The female player is all ... I want to be [what] it talks about.
That's fine explain/show pun-pun and let everyone vote on a 'no restrictions game.' When she plays it with infinite actions, everyone else watches. Do it in front of everyone and tell them that they have to wait for her. When they tell her she has to be in the same league as everyone else, she might figure it out. If they like her enough to let her nuke the group, then gg. Problem solved.

Offline Atmo

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Re: Where's this "fun" I keep hearing about with gaming?
« Reply #9 on: December 27, 2015, 06:25:03 PM »
Does anyone remember when games were supposed to be fun? Where you just sat down at the table with friends, laugh it up, stereotype yourselves with Cheetos and Mountain Dew, roll some dice, and role play instead of roll play? I mean, I've heard of this. Never actually experienced it myself. Or I might have, but all of the bad stuff has just completely wiped all memory of the good stuff. I've been gaming for nearly 25 years. I've played in over a dozen groups, and had so many characters that I can't even try to count. During that time I think I've enjoyed myself a handful of times. At the very least I've been indifferent. I'm honestly debating if gaming is even for me at this point. And I don't play video games. Too broke for that. Haven't touched a game or console since the PS2 came out.
This actually happens to me every 15 days, when I GM my OVA campaign (two players, best group I had in a year). I encoutered various and various sick and poison people and the best decision I could make was to go away from those groups and never look back. Hell, my first RPG group ever was FULL of That People; they didn't liked me, and used my characters as cannon fodder when they wanted to kill someone. Some times they received exp points in secret.

The second group was more of a "I'm intruding you world and fucking it by using the rules right", as they didn't had the 3.5 DMG since they started playing. Poor people, not their fault... but their personalities, ew. After that I noticed they ALL were That Players too, talk about bad luck, eh.

Then I got to GM and see by my own eyes how things worked out and... I'm stuck in this position ever since. That's not actually true, as sometimes I got to be a player again, but the "power" of being able to improvise an entire scene without being held by "I'm just a player here" condition is the groundbreaker.

Nowadays I only GM (and rarely play) online, text-based games, with people that really wants to be around me and talk about things and the weather. Maybe it's your luck, or your own choices that bog you down to shitty people.

Offline Soft Insanity

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Re: Where's this "fun" I keep hearing about with gaming?
« Reply #10 on: December 27, 2015, 07:13:46 PM »
That's fine. Have him help everyone else, but you build his character. Build him a Truenamer. Watch the struggle and drink his tears.

Does he get to have any influence in the build? Truenamer isn't terrible by any stretch of the imagination once you realize breakable magic items are a thing.  Frostburn gives you skulls, Complete Arcane gives you potion tiles.  You'll struggle until level 11 iirc, when you get the ability to repair said items back to full magic.  The frostburn skulls leave zero question as to working that way and one of the spells that qualifies for use is this little one I like to call "wish".

No, if you want to make him cry, you use complete warrior samurai and make things immune to fear.  At the same time you inform him that eastern weaponry is extremely rare in your game world.  The class is so kind as to state: Many samurai receive an heirloom set of these two blades, known as the daisho.  Too bad he wasn't one of "those samurai".  He is a special snowflake after all.