Author Topic: Discussion and Suggestions  (Read 27507 times)

Offline Nanshork

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Re: Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #40 on: February 25, 2016, 04:23:24 PM »
I missed the post about Returned, that's my bad.

I know that Amalgam damage is part of it, I just didn't realize that spirit damage is amalgam damage.  Adding the reminders is perfect.

I think that the simplest way to do it is that all temp hp from Undying Cold maneuvers overlap, any new temp hp gained completely replace existing ones.  However I could see temp hp from separate maneuvers stacking as an argument, it would just involve more paperwork. 

Looking at the "source material", temp hp from energy drain effects used by an undead creature don't stack with themselves so thematically it would make sense to have no temp hp stacking.

Offline Garryl

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Re: Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #41 on: February 26, 2016, 12:10:49 AM »
I think I'll leave it as letting the temp hp stack unless it proves to be imbalanced to have so many sources of temp hp or something. I'm not sure the bookkeping issue will be a problem (you'll very likely take some damage or finish the battle before you get to refreshing your maneuvers to use them again).

(click to show/hide)

Anything else about the maneuvers? If not, I think that just leaves the monsters and the Tomb of Battle magical location. Maybe also the amalgam damage mechanic if you have any comments about it or can pick out any holes.
« Last Edit: February 26, 2016, 12:14:19 AM by Garryl »

Offline Nanshork

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Re: Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #42 on: February 26, 2016, 01:15:33 PM »
Well there's still a whole other discipline I haven't looked at yet. :p

And I'm willing to look at pretty much anything.

Frozen Night

I'm a little iffy on Icy Touch vs Icy Chains, mainly icy chains having no extra damage.  It just doesn't seem significantly better.


Everything else looks okay.

Offline Garryl

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Re: Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #43 on: February 26, 2016, 02:29:17 PM »
Whoopsie. I forgot about that there Frozen Night.

Probably worth adding an extra 1d6 or 2d6 damage to Icy Chains, then. Do note that Icy Touch entangles on a failed save and just damages on a successful one, but Icy Chains entangles regardless of the save (and also immobilizes on a failed save).

Offline Nanshork

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Re: Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #44 on: February 26, 2016, 02:46:36 PM »
I did notice that, I just didn't think it was enough to account for the level difference.  It's quite possible I'm underestimating the crowd control value of Icy Chains, I'll admit that.

Offline Garryl

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Re: Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #45 on: February 26, 2016, 03:49:25 PM »
Well, I added 2d6 cold damage for now. It's definitely stronger than similar ToB maneuvers, but I think the general consensus is that most of said maneuvers are slightly on the weak side of things (at least compared to the strong ones everyone always recommends), so I'm not overly concerned. Maybe drop the bonus damage down to 1d6 if it's a concern. I don't think ~7 damage will make or break it either way for a maneuver accessible at level 7.

(click to show/hide)
« Last Edit: February 26, 2016, 03:55:13 PM by Garryl »

Offline Nanshork

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Re: Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #46 on: February 26, 2016, 05:36:43 PM »
Fair enough, if you decide that the extra damage is too much I'll understand now that I've got a frame of reference.

Okay, onto the rest.

I have no extra comments on the location (apparently I corrected a typo long ago).

The ghost powers look alright although I know next to nothing about D&D ghost powers.

Tomb Guardian looks fine for its CR.

Returned looks fine.  As far as I can tell it's just a skeleton template if you want the target to retain Disciplines/Maneuvers?


Amalgam Damage:
It's pretty self-explanatory but there seem to be some odd gaps for no reason.  I'm only looking at combinations, not what makes sense or the names or anything else.

(This is in no particular order, just how I'm organizing my thoughts.)

You've got Negative/Positive, okay that makes sense.
Then there's Cold/Negative and Fire/Positive, opposites.
But then Acid/Negative all by itself for some reason.


On to straight energy types (acid, cold, fire, electricity, sonic).

There's only Sonic/Electricity, this makes sense thematically and I'm A-OK with it.
For the rest everything combines with everything but we don't get Cold/Electricity.


Next the Energy/Physical combos.

Sonic/Slashing is the only slashing combo.  Any particular reason?
And the only one not to get Bludgeoning is Electricity, again seems odd.
Cold/Piercing makes sense thematically, I can life with it.


Then there's Fire/Untyped (Mind-affecting).  That one just feels out of nowhere.

Offline Garryl

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Re: Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #47 on: February 26, 2016, 06:28:22 PM »
Fair enough, if you decide that the extra damage is too much I'll understand now that I've got a frame of reference.

Okay, onto the rest.

I have no extra comments on the location (apparently I corrected a typo long ago).

The ghost powers look alright although I know next to nothing about D&D ghost powers.

Tomb Guardian looks fine for its CR.

Returned looks fine.  As far as I can tell it's just a skeleton template if you want the target to retain Disciplines/Maneuvers?

That's the intent of Returned, yep. Skeleton martial adepts and fighters is all.

Quote
Amalgam Damage:
It's pretty self-explanatory but there seem to be some odd gaps for no reason.  I'm only looking at combinations, not what makes sense or the names or anything else.

(This is in no particular order, just how I'm organizing my thoughts.)

You've got Negative/Positive, okay that makes sense.
Then there's Cold/Negative and Fire/Positive, opposites.
But then Acid/Negative all by itself for some reason.


On to straight energy types (acid, cold, fire, electricity, sonic).

There's only Sonic/Electricity, this makes sense thematically and I'm A-OK with it.
For the rest everything combines with everything but we don't get Cold/Electricity.


Next the Energy/Physical combos.

Sonic/Slashing is the only slashing combo.  Any particular reason?
And the only one not to get Bludgeoning is Electricity, again seems odd.
Cold/Piercing makes sense thematically, I can life with it.


Then there's Fire/Untyped (Mind-affecting).  That one just feels out of nowhere.

Amalgam damage is something I'm using in a few different pieces of homebrew, so I'm trying to keep just a single version of it posted everywhere relevant (on my computer, I just have one file with a link/alias in all the project folders that use it). Think of it as a latest printing of a mechanic like how Swift and Immediate actions are repeated in nearly ever 3.5e supplement. Mindfire is in there because my Soulknife is using it. So here, yeah, it is out of nowhere. If it would feel more natural, I could add in some other variants (say, brainfreeze for cold, brainstorm for electricity, and mind melt for acid).

... although if I wasn't treating it as a shared document, it really would be clearer to just pare it down to the amalgam types actually used here (Uttercold and Spirit damage). That, um, that seems like a more reasonable option, yeah.

Lack of electricity/positive and cold/electricity are because I couldn't think up any good names/concepts for them. Ditto for the dearth of physical combos (cold is easy because it's ice, but how to you puncture or batter something with, say, electricity). Maybe "innervating" for electricity/positive?

Offline Nanshork

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Re: Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #48 on: February 26, 2016, 07:16:06 PM »
I figured the amalgam damage was because you've only made it for your own classes that use it.

If you want some help with names and whatnot I'm willing to throw out some suggestions.  It doesn't need an overhaul, I just wanted you to know how random things seem to an outsider.

Offline Garryl

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Re: Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #49 on: February 26, 2016, 08:51:30 PM »
For now I'll just use the pared down version currently posted with just the amalgam types used here (uttercold and spirit). I've got a post in the general Homebrew and House Rules board for the concept as a whole.

If you want to toss around ideas, I'm still trying to think of some more low- to mid-level maneuvers for Restless Bones that could reasonably animate undead on a temporary basis (I'll leave the permanent animation to stances like Corpsecrafter and Bone Dance). I'm trying to avoid the obvious idea of just animating something as you kill it. It would be time consuming to stat out mid-combat if you're, say, turning the monster you just killed into a zombie.
« Last Edit: February 26, 2016, 08:58:10 PM by Garryl »

Offline Nanshork

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Re: Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #50 on: February 26, 2016, 08:58:06 PM »
For now I'll just use the pared down version currently posted with just the amalgam types used here (uttercold and spirit). I've got a post in the general Homebrew and House Rules board for the concept as a whole.

Maybe link to the general post so people can look at it?

Offline Garryl

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Re: Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #51 on: February 28, 2016, 01:29:55 AM »
I've been trying to think of some more maneuvers that could make use of undead. Looking primarily for level 2-7 maneuvers that can summon undead or otherwise let you have undead fighting for you in a temporary manner. Corpsecrafter is already good for longer-lived skeletons and zombies.

Frozen Night
- Summon a Vasuthant (MM3, pg. 182) would fit for a Frozen Night maneuver, Vasuthants having a major anti-light shtick.
   - Malignant Shadows: Summon a Vasuthant until your next turn. It doesn't attack, but you can command it to use its Reality Distortion ability.

Restless Bones
- Summon a Boneclaw (MM3, pg. 17). It doesn't have any abilities beyond dealing damage, no utility. Give it a bonus on attack rolls equal to your IL and let it stay around for a few rounds (105 hp means it won't die to a random AoE) and it should fit for a 5th or 6th-level maneuver.
- Summon 8 Bonestings (Web, 3.0 material) in a ring surrounding the target. No more than one Bonesting can attack any given creature each round. Think HotS Witch Doctor's Zombie Prison. Give them bonus hp equal to your IL and likewise +IL to attack rolls. Bonestings are kinda neat as immobile things.

Also, I'm still trying to think up some discipline feats (or just general undeady ToB feats or class-related ones). And I'm also thinking about statting up Arthas Menethil (of Warcraft 3's era) for a sample Death Knight with Frostmourne as Frozen Night's discipline legacy weapon.
« Last Edit: February 28, 2016, 02:57:23 AM by Garryl »

Offline Stratovarius

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Re: Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #52 on: February 28, 2016, 08:38:30 AM »
Just on the subject of summoning undead monsters, I'll toss a pair in from the Ritual Warrior of mine, see if they spark anything for you.

Cadaver Column
The ritual-wielder calls to life the body of a dead foe, transforming it into a frightful pillar of labyrinthian flesh. Once per hit dice of the sacrifice, as a swift action that requires touching the corpse of a creature, the ritual-wielder may create a Cadaver Column out of a corpse.

Grasping Hands
The ritual-wielder forces a tiny piece of life back into a corpse, creating a pathetic mongrel that lies upon the ground in wait for foes. Once per hit dice of the sacrifice, as a swift action that requires touching the corpse of a creature, he may create a Starving Carcass out of the corpse.

I also have a few [Cold] subtype undead as a result of the Arhosa Ascending campaign, if you'd like a link.

Offline Garryl

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Re: Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #53 on: February 28, 2016, 04:13:11 PM »
Thanks for the offer. Those templates don't work for me, though. I really want to avoid the sort of mid-battle mass recalculation that goes with applying templates on the fly. That sort of stuff can really bog down a game. Bone Puppet and Grave Walking already make me nervous about it, I don't want to add even more.

I wouldn't mind taking a look at your other Arhosan undead, though. In particular, if you have any with a bone theme, those could potentially be good for Restless Bones.

Edit: I have three ideas for a Vasuthant-summoning Frozen Night maneuver. Which one sounds better?
  • Malign Shadows (counter 5th): Summon a Vasuthant. It doesn't attack or act, and remains until the start of your next turn. If you initiated this maneuver in response to an attack against you, the concealment may apply and it immediately uses its Reality Distortion ability to force the reroll of the attack.
  • Crushing Darkness (strike): Melee attack. If you hit, summon a Vasuthant for 1 round. It immediately attempts to grapple the target. The Vasuthant gets +IL to hp and grapple checks. (Also needs to make the Vasuthant at least as big as the target so it can use Enervating Crush.)
  • Dark Distraction (boost 2nd): Summon a Vasuthant in flanking position (like with Distracting Ember). You can see normally through the darkness its Trap Light ability produces. The Vasuthant does not attack or act, but it remains until the start of your next turn.
« Last Edit: February 28, 2016, 06:48:48 PM by Garryl »

Offline Stratovarius

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Re: Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #54 on: February 28, 2016, 06:54:46 PM »
I can understand. And it was more that the idea of summoning static undead as a kind of BFC might prompt a few ideas. Like a living Wall of Bone that attacks anything that comes near it and/or has regeneration. Or a wall/pillar of Ghast flesh that emits a horrible stink in squares around it. Something that recalls the iconic bit of an undead, but without the undead entirely being present. That kind of thing.

The two existing undead I have from Arhosa are the (Lesser) Frozen One and the (Lesser) Hailstone Magus. They're both cold themed, so are probably better for a low-mid level Frozen Night maneuver than Restless Bones. There's also a number of blood-themed undead from Ritual Magic, but a lot of those are templates, and much less simple than the Starving Carcass/Cadaver Column pairing.

If you'd like me to cook any up for you, though, I'm always happy. I do love me some undead. :D

Offline Garryl

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Re: Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #55 on: February 28, 2016, 07:16:44 PM »
Oh, I'm already on the static undead track. Ever since I noticed Bonestings online, I've been trying to make something around summoning them in a wall or cage or something.
  • Spire of Stinging Bones (strike 2nd): Summon a Bonesting. It gains bonus hit points equal to your IL and a bonus on attack rolls equal to your IL. The Bonesting remains until the start of your next turn.
  • Veil of Lashing Bones (strike 4th-5th): Summon up to 3 Bonestings in contiguous spaces. They gain bonus hit points equal to your IL and a bonus on attack rolls equal to your IL. No more than one Bonesting can attack the same target, so they may not all be able to attack. The Bonestings remain until the start of your next turn.
  • Cage of Wicked Bones (strike 6th-7th): Summon up to 8 Bonestings in spaces adjacent to target creature. If there are not enough open spaces, you cannot summon them all. They gain bonus hit points equal to your IL and a bonus on attack rolls equal to your IL. No more than one Bonesting can attack the same target, so they may not all be able to attack. The Bonestings remain until the start of your next turn.
I'll probably wind up remaking them (rather than relying on unupdated 3.0e content) if I go with any of these. It'll also let me fine-tune their stats and abilities more appropriately to what I want for each maneuver.

If you have any ideas for undead that would work well with maneuvers (and/or the maneuvers they might work well with), I'd love to see what you come up with. Who knows? We might even come up with enough for another martial discipline, one focused entirely on summoning and creating undead!

Offline Nanshork

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Re: Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #56 on: February 28, 2016, 08:24:21 PM »
You guys let me know when you want my input again.  :p

Offline Stratovarius

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Re: Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #57 on: February 28, 2016, 08:36:35 PM »
You guys let me know when you want my input again.  :p

Spellsong?  :D

Offline Stratovarius

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Re: Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #58 on: February 28, 2016, 08:49:11 PM »
  • Veil of Lashing Bones (strike 4th-5th): Summon up to 3 Bonestings in contiguous spaces. They gain bonus hit points equal to your IL and a bonus on attack rolls equal to your IL. No more than one Bonesting can attack the same target, so they may not all be able to attack. The Bonestings remain until the start of your next turn.
  • Cage of Wicked Bones (strike 6th-7th): Summon up to 8 Bonestings in spaces adjacent to target creature. If there are not enough open spaces, you cannot summon them all. They gain bonus hit points equal to your IL and a bonus on attack rolls equal to your IL. No more than one Bonesting can attack the same target, so they may not all be able to attack. The Bonestings remain until the start of your next turn.
Are you really worried about the Bonestings making multiple attacks? Because unlike the ToB strikes (at least off the top of my head), the attack bonus (and thus the likelihood of hitting) is going to be far lower, especially when you're taking about Cage of Wicked Bones. By then, with only a +6, unless you're buffing them using something else, there's monsters where unless they roll a 20 they aren't hitting. Now, if there's a really lucky round, they can certainly stack damage, but otherwise, I wouldn't be worried about it.

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If you have any ideas for undead that would work well with maneuvers (and/or the maneuvers they might work well with), I'd love to see what you come up with. Who knows? We might even come up with enough for another martial discipline, one focused entirely on summoning and creating undead!

I would have a blast creating that kind of discipline. Step 1 idea - Do you remember the different minor boosts in the back of Libris Mortis to create faste/hot/cold/etc. skeletons and zombies? Have something similar be the boosts for the discipline. So the 1st level strike summons a zombie human and the boost makes all zombies you summoned that round deal 1d6 extra fire damage.

Or switch it up, and have a discipline focused almost entirely on boosts. So the boost gives you the undead (say a Gnoll Skeleton to keep it simple). And then the strike is something like this "As part of this maneuver, make a single melee attack. If it hits, each undead summon you control deals an extra 1d6 damage if they hit the same target this round." Counters would be something like this "As an immediate action, you can leap behind an adjacent undead. Treat the attack against you as if it was made against that undead. In addition, take a 5 ft. step. You must remain adjacent to the attacked undead."

Offline Garryl

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Re: Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #59 on: February 28, 2016, 09:32:57 PM »
You guys let me know when you want my input again.  :p

Have we ever not wanted it?

  • Veil of Lashing Bones (strike 4th-5th): Summon up to 3 Bonestings in contiguous spaces. They gain bonus hit points equal to your IL and a bonus on attack rolls equal to your IL. No more than one Bonesting can attack the same target, so they may not all be able to attack. The Bonestings remain until the start of your next turn.
  • Cage of Wicked Bones (strike 6th-7th): Summon up to 8 Bonestings in spaces adjacent to target creature. If there are not enough open spaces, you cannot summon them all. They gain bonus hit points equal to your IL and a bonus on attack rolls equal to your IL. No more than one Bonesting can attack the same target, so they may not all be able to attack. The Bonestings remain until the start of your next turn.
Are you really worried about the Bonestings making multiple attacks? Because unlike the ToB strikes (at least off the top of my head), the attack bonus (and thus the likelihood of hitting) is going to be far lower, especially when you're taking about Cage of Wicked Bones. By then, with only a +6, unless you're buffing them using something else, there's monsters where unless they roll a 20 they aren't hitting. Now, if there's a really lucky round, they can certainly stack damage, but otherwise, I wouldn't be worried about it.

Emphasis on the "and a bonus on attack rolls equal to your IL". No point in summoning things with the ability to attack if they don't have a reasonable attack roll. Otherwise, you're just wasting the time of everyone at the table.

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Quote
If you have any ideas for undead that would work well with maneuvers (and/or the maneuvers they might work well with), I'd love to see what you come up with. Who knows? We might even come up with enough for another martial discipline, one focused entirely on summoning and creating undead!

I would have a blast creating that kind of discipline. Step 1 idea - Do you remember the different minor boosts in the back of Libris Mortis to create faste/hot/cold/etc. skeletons and zombies? Have something similar be the boosts for the discipline. So the 1st level strike summons a zombie human and the boost makes all zombies you summoned that round deal 1d6 extra fire damage.

Never read Libris Mortis, but that idea sounds fun.

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Or switch it up, and have a discipline focused almost entirely on boosts. So the boost gives you the undead (say a Gnoll Skeleton to keep it simple). And then the strike is something like this "As part of this maneuver, make a single melee attack. If it hits, each undead summon you control deals an extra 1d6 damage if they hit the same target this round." Counters would be something like this "As an immediate action, you can leap behind an adjacent undead. Treat the attack against you as if it was made against that undead. In addition, take a 5 ft. step. You must remain adjacent to the attacked undead."

It would need something else for 1st-level maneuvers. A boost that summons a creature to do much more than just be a flank buddy is definitely level 2 at least. You might get away with it as a 1st-level boost if it doesn't do anything on its own, but still stays around long enough for a strike like Flanking Maneuver (WR 5) or Swarming Assault (WR 7) to trigger a minor attack from it. That said, I think the strikes doing the summoning and the boosts mostly just giving bonuses is the better way to go, at least for the lower-level maneuvers.

For that sort of counter, instead of a 5-foot step, I'd just swap positions and copy the wording from Clever Positioning (SS 2).