Author Topic: Gods  (Read 44842 times)

Offline littha

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Re: Gods
« Reply #20 on: September 08, 2012, 12:44:10 PM »
Thor kills the world serpent in the myth too, at Ragnarok though he dies from its poison in the process. Also assuming the D&D systems are backwards compatible with norse myths via the frost giants leads to nonsense because Thor already has stats in Deities and Demigods. He has 60 HD (20 Outsider, 20 Barbarian and 20 Ranger)...

As far as Sun Wukong goes his story has had several names, one being "Adventures of the Monkey God". He both ascended to a position in heaven (and later promoted to a better one) and ate one of the heavenly peaches which gave him immortality and makes him the equal of the Taoist gods in power.


Offline Nanshork

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Re: Gods
« Reply #21 on: September 08, 2012, 01:57:52 PM »
AFAIK there is no feat to give undead Cha to HP.  There's an ability that some undead get called Unholy Toughness, but it is not gainable by a feat just by being one of a few types of Undead.  The closest you can come with feats isn't close enough, observe.

Offline DavidWL

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Re: Gods
« Reply #22 on: September 08, 2012, 02:22:06 PM »
Very cool class.  You really do great work.  Scaling with Level, worshippers, focus on diefic powers rather than ultimate power, etc., very cool

Thoughts below.

* Often you say "at 20 HD you can do this very cool thing".  A tweaked bard with inspire greatness can give +6 to +12 bonus HD.  I'd specifically exclude that effect - perhaps just put this in a footnote or some such.  On the other hand, it might be fun to allow +1 effective HD per divine characteristic so dedicated while in your Godly Relm", or some such.

Divine Rank:The god has a Divine Rank equal to her god level, which determine the power of several of her godly abilities. Divine Rank cannot be boosted by any other means.

Reading this makes me think that you can only boost Divine Rank by boosting God Level.  However, Bloodlines would boost your God Level, so perhaps that should be specifically made ineffective.

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Portfolio: At first level the god chooses a portfolio over which she will focus, like Love or Farming or Murder. She gains an insight bonus equal to 2+1/2 HD on all Craft, Knowledge, Profession, and Perform checks directly related to her portfolio.

Skills are cheap ... I'd even want this to be a higher bonus.  A God of love having +12 at 20th level to seduction or matchmaking just isn't that great.  I realize there are Divine Powers for this too, but there is no great harm in allowing skill totals to go over the top.

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God Field- The Demigod gains a Divine bonus to AC equal to her Divine Rank. If she has  20 or more HD, she also gains a Deflection bonus to AC equal to her Cha mod (minimum +1).

This seems a little bit high, given that she also gets Divine Rank to AC as a Natural Armor Bonus.  This makes this the highest AC in any class (your stuff or official stuff).

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God Domain- Choose a cleric Domain ... you can use the domain power a number of times per day equal to your Divine Rank

luck: you 1 re-roll per level
Celestial: smite evil 1/lvl
Meditation - free empower 1/lvl

It  seems a little strong.

Also, I think that in instances where it is 1 round / cleric level, that the god should be able to use it more than that.

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God Skill-Three times per day per HD you can add your Divine Rank on any one skill check, ability check, caster level check or turning check you perform (but no more than once per roll). This takes no action but you need to choose to use this ability before actually rolling the dice. If you have 20 or more HD, then you can choose to use this ability after seeing the result of this roll.

It's a little powerful. 

Note that this includes, initiative checks and maneuver checks (trip / bull rush / grapple ..), as part of that list.

Also, 3*HD is an awful lot ... might as well make it at will at Divine Rank = 11.

Perhaps this could be broken into 2 or 3 different abilities?

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God Toughness-All your current and future HD are automaticaly maximized.

Perhaps this should only apply to HD gained while in the god class? 

While in the god class this is ~ +2.5HP/lvl.  However, as a 1 level dip ... it may be too good (it's already a very! dipable class).

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Godly Realm:
- I'd like that for some combination of Divine Characteristics and Salient Divine Abilities you can increase you effective Divine Rank and or HD for the purpose of abilities.
- Perhaps Divine Characteristics can be spent to increase Divine Rank while in Godly Realm
- Perhaps There can be a salient Divine Ability which will increase your effective HD (possibly fatiguing?)

At some point I'll get around to looking at the salient Divine Abilities.

Also - random thought: there should be some way to get more skill points, armor and weapon proficiency, etc.  Perhaps you can spend a Divine Characteristic?  It is amusing that the god of war isn't proficient with most weapons.

As always, very cool work.

Best,
David
« Last Edit: September 08, 2012, 03:34:52 PM by DavidWL »

Offline DavidWL

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Re: Gods
« Reply #23 on: September 08, 2012, 02:31:07 PM »
Replying to other comments in this thread:

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-As for Bab requirements, the idea was that those are for warrior dudes that take some full Bab levels before going into God. Altough I can see the argument that it is too much of a limitation and reduce/remove them if you think it would be better.

I do think they should be reduced, and more tied to God level and prereqs than BAB. 

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-Leaving an undead god with d6 HD isn't that cruel when you remember there's a feat out there to give undeads their Cha mod in HP to each HD as the living do with their Con scores. More in particular the god can easily maximize her own HD.

There is no such feat.  While your "maximize HD" Divine Characteristic is good, it isn't good enough. 

On the other hand, giving such a boatload of immunities for 1 of 45 choosable class features without a downside is also too much.

I'm tempted to suggest that there be a Divine Characteristic that up your HD (D6-> D8 -> D10 -> D12).  May be a little expensive, but then you can get maximized undead HD, but at the cost of 4 Divine Characteristics, which seems medium-balanced.

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I choose to tackle the god as a patron of a portfolio


Wonderfully cool, and an awesome and insightful idea! 

Part of what makes it possible to play a "God" at 1st level.  I like it a lot.

Best,
David

Offline oslecamo

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Re: Gods
« Reply #24 on: September 08, 2012, 03:42:52 PM »
Thor kills the world serpent in the myth too, at Ragnarok though he dies from its poison in the process. Also assuming the D&D systems are backwards compatible with norse myths via the frost giants leads to nonsense because Thor already has stats in Deities and Demigods. He has 60 HD (20 Outsider, 20 Barbarian and 20 Ranger)...

That's the idea. The god of smashing stuff isn't just a god. He's a warblade 20/crusader 20/god X. or something else along those lines. However if you're yourself a warblade 20/crusader 20/non-god X, it should be a relatively fair fight between you two.

AFAIK there is no feat to give undead Cha to HP.  There's an ability that some undead get called Unholy Toughness, but it is not gainable by a feat just by being one of a few types of Undead.  The closest you can come with feats isn't close enough, observe.
Meh, there's still desecrate and it's still a bunch of immunities for just 1 SDA, plus the original one also didn't grant you d12 HD.

Very cool class.  You really do great work.  Scaling with Level, worshippers, focus on diefic powers rather than ultimate power, etc., very cool
Thanks!
Thoughts below.

* Often you say "at 20 HD you can do this very cool thing".  A tweaked bard with inspire greatness can give +6 to +12 bonus HD.  I'd specifically exclude that effect - perhaps just put this in a footnote or some such.
Meh, in one side bards granting a dozen extra HD is already cheese on its own. On the other it makes more than sense the god geting specially empowered when they're singing hymns to you.

Plus, plenty of other monsters around here get big boosts based on HD.


On the other hand, it might be fun to allow +1 effective HD per divine characteristic so dedicated while in your Godly Relm", or some such.
Godly realm is suposed to be more of a flavor ability to make your personal home, first level is already pretty filled as it is.

Divine Rank:The god has a Divine Rank equal to her god level, which determine the power of several of her godly abilities. Divine Rank cannot be boosted by any other means.

Reading this makes me think that you can only boost Divine Rank by boosting God Level.  However, Bloodlines would boost your God Level, so perhaps that should be specifically made ineffective.
I tought that text was already enough to exclude bloodlines, but ok made it even more explicit.

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Portfolio: At first level the god chooses a portfolio over which she will focus, like Love or Farming or Murder. She gains an insight bonus equal to 2+1/2 HD on all Craft, Knowledge, Profession, and Perform checks directly related to her portfolio.

Skills are cheap ... I'd even want this to be a higher bonus.  A God of love having +12 at 20th level to seduction or matchmaking just isn't that great.  I realize there are Divine Powers for this too, but there is no great harm in allowing skill totals to go over the top.
Again it's suposed to be more of a flavourful ability at first level, plus my ToBhou schools can get pretty scary when they start piling in skill boosts, so I really don't want them over the top.

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God Field- The Demigod gains a Divine bonus to AC equal to her Divine Rank. If she has  20 or more HD, she also gains a Deflection bonus to AC equal to her Cha mod (minimum +1).

This seems a little bit high, given that she also gets Divine Rank to AC as a Natural Armor Bonus.  This makes this the highest AC in any class (your stuff or official stuff).
Yes, I realized that, but it was kinda intended. God being untouchable and whatnot.

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God Domain- Choose a cleric Domain ... you can use the domain power a number of times per day equal to your Divine Rank

luck: you 1 re-roll per level
Celestial: smite evil 1/lvl
Meditation - free empower 1/lvl

It  seems a little strong.
Not to me. The luck one is pretty tempting yes, but then it always was even for normal clerics. Smite evil is situational, and some free empowers per day is only good if you built for it.

Also, I think that in instances where it is 1 round / cleric level, that the god should be able to use it more than that.
Besides the Travel one (which I believe would be fine as it is), what more are there exactly?

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God Skill-Three times per day per HD you can add your Divine Rank on any one skill check, ability check, caster level check or turning check you perform (but no more than once per roll). This takes no action but you need to choose to use this ability before actually rolling the dice. If you have 20 or more HD, then you can choose to use this ability after seeing the result of this roll.

It's a little powerful. 

Note that this includes, initiative checks and maneuver checks (trip / bull rush / grapple ..), as part of that list.

Also, 3*HD is an awful lot ... might as well make it at will at Divine Rank = 11.

Perhaps this could be broken into 2 or 3 different abilities?
Hmm, reduced number of uses to 2*HD, divided it in two abilities, one for skills+turning, the other for ability+CL.

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God Toughness-All your current and future HD are automaticaly maximized.

Perhaps this should only apply to HD gained while in the god class? 

While in the god class this is ~ +2.5HP/lvl.  However, as a 1 level dip ... it may be too good (it's already a very! dipable class).
Limited it to god HD, added the option of taking twice to apply to all your HD. And yes it's suposed to be dipable. Also added that you get your Divine Rank to HP for the first take (not per HD mind you, just like regular toughness).

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Godly Realm:
- I'd like that for some combination of Divine Characteristics and Salient Divine Abilities you can increase you effective Divine Rank and or HD for the purpose of abilities.
- Perhaps Divine Characteristics can be spent to increase Divine Rank while in Godly Realm
- Perhaps There can be a salient Divine Ability which will increase your effective HD (possibly fatiguing?)
I'm trying to keep extra ways of increasing your Divine Rank to a minimum. Venerable Battlefield already has a couple maneuvers for that. And I'm just against designing abilities that make you count as having extra HD, as it allows all kind of cheese (cough bard inspiration cough), in particular when half the monster classes have lots of stuff based on HD.

At some point I'll get around to looking at the salient Divine Abilities.

Also - random thought: there should be some way to get more skill points, armor and weapon proficiency, etc.  Perhaps you can spend a Divine Characteristic?  It is amusing that the god of war isn't proficient with most armor or weapons.
Easy. Take levels of other classes that have that stuff before becoming a god.  :p
Most deities were more regular smucks once that did a lot of stuff before ascending.

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-As for Bab requirements, the idea was that those are for warrior dudes that take some full Bab levels before going into God. Altough I can see the argument that it is too much of a limitation and reduce/remove them if you think it would be better.

I do think they should be reduced, and more tied to God level and prereqs than BAB. 
Will look into that then.


Offline DavidWL

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Re: Gods
« Reply #25 on: September 08, 2012, 04:52:26 PM »
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* Often you say "at 20 HD you can do this very cool thing".  A tweaked bard with inspire greatness can give +6 to +12 bonus HD.  I'd specifically exclude that effect - perhaps just put this in a footnote or some such.
Meh, in one side bards granting a dozen extra HD is already cheese on its own. On the other it makes more than sense the god geting specially empowered when they're singing hymns to you.

Plus, plenty of other monsters around here get big boosts based on HD.

A words of Creation + Song of the Heart bard is not that tweaked.  And +6HD means that at 14th level you have a ton of "at will" effects, effects with 20 mile radius, etc.

This is a little more than the "big boosts" that other monsters get.

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Godly realm is suposed to be more of a flavor ability to make your personal home, first level is already pretty filled as it is.

Fair enough :)

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Portfolio:
Again it's suposed to be more of a flavourful ability at first level, plus my ToBhou schools can get pretty scary when they start piling in skill boosts, so I really don't want them over the top.

Makes sense.

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God Field- The Demigod gains a Divine bonus to AC equal to her Divine Rank. If she has  20 or more HD, she also gains a Deflection bonus to AC equal to her Cha mod (minimum +1).

This seems a little bit high, given that she also gets Divine Rank to AC as a Natural Armor Bonus.  This makes this the highest AC in any class (your stuff or official stuff).
Yes, I realized that, but it was kinda intended. God being untouchable and whatnot.

The thing is, they can't be invulnerable.  If, at 10th or 15th level they are untouchable, that gets rid of the risk.

It's ok to be a tank, but not so that __nothing__ can touch you.  It's fine to make them effectively immune to most melee, but there has to be some way of defeating them (even if they tank up).

If they spent even 33% of their choices on being tougher, by 10th level they'd be pretty untouchable.

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God Domain- Choose a cleric Domain ... you can use the domain power a number of times per day equal to your Divine Rank

luck: you 1 re-roll per level
Celestial: smite evil 1/lvl
Meditation - free empower 1/lvl

It  seems a little strong.
Not to me. The luck one is pretty tempting yes, but then it always was even for normal clerics. Smite evil is situational, and some free empowers per day is only good if you built for it.

With smite and empower I agree with you.  With luck, I do not.  Cleric get 1 re-roll a day.  A god get's 1 re-roll per level per day.

That said, it's ugly to make an exception for 1 domain.


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Also, I think that in instances where it is 1 round / cleric level, that the god should be able to use it more than that.
Besides the Travel one (which I believe would be fine as it is), what more are there exactly?

Balance domain & Strength Domain.  That said, I agree - no exception for only a couple of domains.

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God Skill
Hmm, reduced number of uses to 2*HD, divided it in two abilities, one for skills+turning, the other for ability+CL.

Sounds good.

Thanks!

Best,
David

Offline oslecamo

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Re: Gods
« Reply #26 on: September 10, 2012, 07:48:52 AM »
Annihilating Strike now demands Divine Rank 11, Bab 9+ and Weapon focus with the chosen weapon. Means eventually a god 18 can take it, or full Bab class 4+God 11 can get it 3 levels earlier. It's a pretty powerful effect so I don't want it coming too early.

Divine Archery reduced to Bab 3+, Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot.

Wound Enemy now demands Bab 4+ and weapon focus.

A words of Creation + Song of the Heart bard is not that tweaked.  And +6HD means that at 14th level you have a ton of "at will" effects, effects with 20 mile radius, etc.

This is a little more than the "big boosts" that other monsters get.
Words of Creation is one of the very definition of cheesy-aka double a lot of effects with little questions asked.

But ok, it was never intended there were such easy ways to gain extra HD, so added new FAQ entry specifically meaning it doesn't work for any work from here.

The thing is, they can't be invulnerable.  If, at 10th or 15th level they are untouchable, that gets rid of the risk.

It's ok to be a tank, but not so that __nothing__ can touch you.  It's fine to make them effectively immune to most melee, but there has to be some way of defeating them (even if they tank up).

If they spent even 33% of their choices on being tougher, by 10th level they'd be pretty untouchable.
Ok, reduced God Field to 1+/1/5 Divine Rank divine bonus to AC. Any other characteristics that lool like they make it "too  tanky"?

With smite and empower I agree with you.  With luck, I do not.  Cleric get 1 re-roll a day.  A god get's 1 re-roll per level per day.

That said, it's ugly to make an exception for 1 domain.
Well, the cleric still gets full acess to the cleric list and turn undead and can then prc and stuff. :p

Plus re-rolls are more of a defensive ability to make sure you pass those saves, so I don't see it being that abuseable besides making the god less likely to fail a save, and even then it will eventually run out.


Offline phaedrusxy

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Re: Gods
« Reply #27 on: September 10, 2012, 12:50:38 PM »
A binder can reroll saves (and other things) all day long (every 5 rounds) by binding Balam. I don't remember ever hearing anyone claim that ability is overpowered.
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Offline DavidWL

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Re: Gods
« Reply #28 on: September 15, 2012, 03:07:49 AM »
A binder can reroll saves (and other things) all day long (every 5 rounds) by binding Balam. I don't remember ever hearing anyone claim that ability is overpowered.

At 20th a binder can bind 4 vestiges, and this is about 1/3rd of the benefit of Balam.  --> 1/12th of a Binder's resources

Additionally, if there are 4 encounters a day then you are probably able to use this once per encounter (few encounters will last much longer than 5 rounds ...)

Binder Summary:  1/12th of class resources for 4 rerolls

god Summary:  1/40th of class resources for 20 rerolls ... about 15 times better.

It isn't overpowered, but it is disproportionately effective relative the small cost.

That said, I doubt it is worth changing the ability because of 1 Domain.

Best,
David


Offline DavidWL

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Re: Gods
« Reply #29 on: September 15, 2012, 03:54:38 AM »
I've listed some questions for your first list of Salient Divine Abilities. At some point I'll work my way through your next list, as well as posting some number of sample builds.

Alter Reality
(click to show/hide)

Avatar
(click to show/hide)

Call Creatures
(click to show/hide)

Control Creatures
(click to show/hide)

Divine Blast
(click to show/hide)

Divine Blessing
(click to show/hide)

Divine Celerity
(click to show/hide)

Divine Creation
(click to show/hide)

Divine Radiance
(click to show/hide)

Divine Recall
(click to show/hide)

Extra Sense
(click to show/hide)

Best,
David
« Last Edit: September 15, 2012, 04:03:40 AM by DavidWL »

Offline littha

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Re: Gods
« Reply #30 on: September 15, 2012, 08:47:43 AM »
At 4th level a god (with the transformation domain) can cast Alter self 8 times a day (or Enlarge/reduce person, etc.).  This is better than a level-equivalent Sorcerer.

Why would you want to cast Alter Self 8 times a day? It has a duration of 10 minutes/level...

Offline oslecamo

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Re: Gods
« Reply #31 on: September 15, 2012, 10:09:49 AM »
Alter Reality
(click to show/hide)
Changed so that the stronger the spell you seek to replicate, the more uses it costs. Also removed the at-will for 20 HD and simple made it recover 1 use/round, since the versatility is still pretty powerful.

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Avatar
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Changed so that the avatar has -2 god levels than you, -1 for each extra avatar you have beyond the first.
You can also use the avatar to channel any abilities that could be channeled trough a remote location (since it counts as one), but otherwise it has to rely on its own abilities.

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Call Creatures
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Good point, limited the combined HD/CR of the called creatures up to your HD-2, number of uses based on Divine Rank, reduced at-will at 20 HD to per hour at 20 HD (but kept adding Cha mod to stuff then).

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Control Creatures
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No duration limit, but you have a cap on how many you can dominate at a time.

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Divine Blast
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You have to know your target's position trough some means, remote sensing/spotter minions works. The divine blast is still shot from you unless your minion has some channeling ability.You also need line of effect unless you feel confident that you can deal enough damage to punch trough any obstacles in between (and then you still suffer a 50% miss chance).
Also notice it has a limited number of uses pre-epic, so it's possible the dragon just manages to shrug off the damage until you run out of "ammo".

And yes, it's suposed to be the "lighting falls out of nowhere, you die take damage" :p

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Divine Blessing
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Hmm, made it an untyped bonus, can be used in yourself and lesser gods that submit to you, how about that?

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Divine Celerity
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Good point, made it a free action to activate like it was suposed to be. Also it's just 1/round, clarified.

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Divine Creation
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-Tecnically you can't be a god 40 so invalid comparation.
-They can each create angels if they champion some good cause. Altough now that I think about it a 16th level god spamming Solars (even if they're not binded to you) is kinda too much, so put a limit on the CR of the creatures you can create based on your HD, and yes class levels count towards it.

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Divine Radiance
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Same answers, except the Divine Radiance lacks the barrier-busting properties of the Divine Blast, so you'll need actual line of sight or some minion with channeling abilities.

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Divine Recall
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"you sense everything you would have sensed if you were there physically" is pretty acurate, added that as a clarification. And yes to all your examples, altough I guess I would've limited the type of event a little more when the ability was picked a little more, like duels instead of fight and lies instead of deception.

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Extra Sense
(click to show/hide)
Hmm, I'll play safe here and state you can't enanchne senses gained from the god class itself.

Let me know if I missed some of your points, pretty big review there.

Offline DavidWL

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Re: Gods
« Reply #32 on: September 15, 2012, 02:14:01 PM »
I like all your fixes.  They make sense.

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Divine Blast
(click to show/hide)
You have to know your target's position trough some means, remote sensing/spotter minions works. The divine blast is still shot from you unless your minion has some channeling ability.You also need line of effect unless you feel confident that you can deal enough damage to punch trough any obstacles in between (and then you still suffer a 50% miss chance).
Also notice it has a limited number of uses pre-epic, so it's possible the dragon just manages to shrug off the damage until you run out of "ammo".

And yes, it's suposed to be the "lighting falls out of nowhere, you die take damage" :p

Mature Adult Red Dragon
- CR 18
- CL 9
- 312 HP

god 9 (probably could do it at 6th level ...)
- Cha 30  (17 + 2 age + 2 level + 4 item + 5 class)
- 13 blasts per day
- 9D12 damage ~ 59 per round
- total damage = 760 Hp over 13 rounds

If the Dragon is overland, it will have no good way to defend itself and will die.  And this is true of any character that is outside, and who doesn't have teleport or plane shift.  (Warblade 20?  Tough luck, you're dead).  Even though CR = *2 level.  With no optimization at all.

Actually ... I'm not quite right ... turning invisible would probably also save the Dragon.  But my point remains ... if outside and not really a caster, this is an instant win.  And, if you're not outside, the god can stalk you until 1 day you do go outside.

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Pretty big review there.

Pretty big class  :D

Best,
David

« Last Edit: September 15, 2012, 03:01:01 PM by DavidWL »

Offline oslecamo

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Re: Gods
« Reply #33 on: September 15, 2012, 06:25:21 PM »
First, something I forgot to reply to

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Regarding creating magic items:
- the only limit appears to be 10 minutes of rest per 100GP
- Does that mean for 1 day's of rest, I can create 14,000 GP items, as long as desired?
- Is there any max GP cap?
- There is no other cost whatsoever?
Put a cap at 500 GP per Divine Rank (so 10 000 GP at best) per magic item, made them not work for non-believers (and thus hard to sell), and also they can't be further upgraded.

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Divine Blast
(click to show/hide)
You have to know your target's position trough some means, remote sensing/spotter minions works. The divine blast is still shot from you unless your minion has some channeling ability.You also need line of effect unless you feel confident that you can deal enough damage to punch trough any obstacles in between (and then you still suffer a 50% miss chance).
Also notice it has a limited number of uses pre-epic, so it's possible the dragon just manages to shrug off the damage until you run out of "ammo".

And yes, it's suposed to be the "lighting falls out of nowhere, you die take damage" :p

Mature Adult Red Dragon
- CR 18
- CL 9
- 312 HP

god 9 (probably could do it at 6th level ...)
- Cha 30  (17 + 2 age + 2 level + 4 item + 5 class)
- 13 blasts per day
- 9D12 damage ~ 59 per round
- total damage = 760 Hp over 13 rounds

If the Dragon is overland, it will have no good way to defend itself and will die.  And this is true of any character that is outside, and who doesn't have teleport or plane shift.  (Warblade 20?  Tough luck, you're dead).  Even though CR = *2 level.  With no optimization at all.

Actually ... I'm not quite right ... turning invisible would probably also save the Dragon.  But my point remains ... if outside and not really a caster, this is an instant win.  And, if you're not outside, the god can stalk you until 1 day you do go outside.

Well, I'm assuming here that the land has a curvature, and thus if your opponent is far away enough, they'll be getting some degree of cover or concealment if not total. Even if the land has no curvature, the dragon can still easily get cover/concealment hiding behind some terrain/cloud, which would the logic thing to do if there's attacks coming from aparently nowhere. Ditto for other high level enemies. Basically, unless they're flying in the open and you're also in the open, they'll be geting total cover more often than not. And if you're out in the open shooting divine blasts, you're broadcasting your position for all to see.

Hmm, I think I just justified why older dragons don't just fly out there razing down villages whitout fear. Gotta watch out for your believers!  :p
« Last Edit: September 15, 2012, 06:27:48 PM by oslecamo »

Offline DavidWL

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Re: Gods
« Reply #34 on: September 15, 2012, 06:32:04 PM »
First, something I forgot to reply to

Put a cap at 500 GP per Divine Rank (so 10 000 GP at best) per magic item, made them not work for non-believers (and thus hard to sell), and also they can't be further upgraded.

Cool. That does cover all the items mentioned earlier. 

:)

Quote
Well, I'm assuming here that the land has a curvature, and thus if your opponent is far away enough, they'll be getting some degree of cover or concealment if not total. Even if the land has no curvature, the dragon can still easily get cover/concealment hiding behind some terrain/cloud, which would the logic thing to do if there's attacks coming from apparently nowhere. Ditto for other high level enemies.

Hmm, I think I just justified why older dragons don't just fly out there razing down villages without fear. Gotta watch out for your believers!:p

Hmm.  Ok.  I think, then, though, it has to be medium-common knowledge.

There are definitely ways to defend
* hide - invisibility, find cover
* run - teleport, go indoors, plane shift
* buff touch AC - scintillating scales

It has to be taken as a given that if someone starts to be struck by lightening from nowhere, they assume it is the wrath of some god, and then then do something appropriate. 

Half my thought was that someone might not know what was happening, so wouldn't know what to do.  If we make it common knowledge, it is less of a problem.

Best,
David

P.S.  We also now know why the gods lived in a high mountain in Olympus ... so they'd have line of sight for their lightening :)
« Last Edit: September 15, 2012, 06:38:28 PM by DavidWL »

Offline oslecamo

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Re: Gods
« Reply #35 on: September 17, 2012, 10:56:40 AM »
Just to say that yes, it would make sense that in a world where gods exist, it's common knowledge they can Divine Blast the hell out of you from pretty far.

Offline DavidWL

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Re: Gods
« Reply #36 on: September 18, 2012, 06:47:40 PM »
Quote
Footsore-You need the Travel Domain to pick this ability. It can affect up to one creature per divine rank at once, but no more than one creature per divine rank each day. All must be within the god’s line of sight when first affected. Subjects can attempt Fortitude saves (DC 10 + god’s Charisma modifier + god’s divine rank). Creatures who fail their saves become fatigued and their speed is reduced by half. Furthermore, any mount or vehicle they ride is likewise slowed. The effect lasts one hour, or one day if the god has 20 HD or more.

Seems a little weak compared to other powers.

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Free Move-You need Divine Celerity to pick this ability. You can use Divine Celerity as an immediate action (or as a free action even if it isn't your turn if you have 20 HD or more).

What does this do, in light of the updates to Divine Celerity?  Is the point that you can use this during other people's initiative/as an interruption, at the cost of your immediate action?

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Hand of Death-The god points to any mortal within the god’s sensory range and snuffs out its life. There must be an unbroken line of effect between the god and the target. This can be used 1/day per HD. This ability works like the Destruction spell, except that there is no material component. The mortal is allowed a Fortitude saving throw with a DC of 10+ the god’s Charisma bonus +1/2 HD (+10 DC if the god has 20 HD or more). Even if the save succeeds, the subject takes 1d6 points of damage for every 2 HD of the god, which may kill it anyway. If the attack kills the mortal (either through a failed saving throw or through damage), the mortal cannot be raised or resurrected afterward, except by a god of equal or higher rank using the Gift of Life, Life and Death, or Mass Life and Death salient divine ability.

I guess philosophically, while cool, this is sort of the same as divine blast+.  "You can repeatedly try to kill an opponent, who will never know you're there".

Oh ... and probably you're not there.

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Know Death-The god knows the exact moment and circumstances of any mortal creature’s death just by looking at the creature.

lol.  :)

"I see your future ... you will die Very soon  :D"

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Life and Death

Similar objections.

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Mass Divine Blast
-You need Divine Blast and Divine Rank 6 to pick this option. This ability works like the Divine Blast ability, except that the deity can specify up to five targets per rank, no two of which can be more than one mile apart per rank, or an area. The area can be a cone, burst, spread, or cylinder. A cone can be up to 10 feet long per rank. A burst or spread can have a radius of up to 5 feet per rank. A cylinder can have a radius of up to 5 feet per rank and a height of up to 10 feet per rank. The deity chooses the attack’s exact form and dimensions. If the god has 20 HD or more, multiply all max radius/length/height by 10
.

Similar objections.

If we compare this to fireball
Damage is *2  ~ Maximize is almost as good  (+3 LA)
You can custom select your targets ~ Shape Spell is almost as good (+1)
Range is much larger ~ Enlarge Spell is not really as good, but the closest we got (+1)
Damage is typeless ~ Energy Subsitition + (+0 and a feat)
Uses a save vs. touch instead of a Reflex save ~ irressistable spell is better at +4, so call it (+3)

Basically, if you spend 5 metamagic feats and +8 Spell Levels, a fireball would be as good.

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Mass Life and Death

Similar objections
Quote
Master Crafter

It's cool, but it would be nice if the coolness scaled with level.

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Power of Luck

Very powerful, although probably ok.

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Rejuvenation
I'm ok with these kinds of abilities - seems fun to me with little negative to play balance.

Might be good to have some special way of making the killing permanent even for a mortal ... a way that gets harder and more obscure as the god gets higher in level.

Quote
Speak With Creatures

Does this work with any of your domains?

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Supreme Iniative[/u]

Powerful, but fine by itself.

Note that there is a Divine Characteristic that also lets you add your Divine Rank to attribute (initiative) checks, which would mean that you'd never lose initiative.  Perhaps they shouldn't stack until a reasonably high level?

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True Shapechance

Doesn't seem that much stronger than shift form.  In an absolute sense it is balanced, but at that level, people would compare it to Polymorph any Object and Shapechange -- versus those it is much weaker.

That said, I don't think this should be like those.  Just because the alternatives are broken, doesn't mean that this has to be.  However, it would be cool if somehow it gave some random perks that made it special.  Perhaps you count as that race for magic items, if you have children while in that form, the children are of that race, etc.

Quote
Undead Qualities- You need to have picked God Ward at least four times to pick this.

Great Change

Best,
David

Offline oslecamo

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Re: Gods
« Reply #37 on: September 19, 2012, 11:58:19 AM »
Quote
Footsore-You need the Travel Domain to pick this ability. It can affect up to one creature per divine rank at once, but no more than one creature per divine rank each day. All must be within the god’s line of sight when first affected. Subjects can attempt Fortitude saves (DC 10 + god’s Charisma modifier + god’s divine rank). Creatures who fail their saves become fatigued and their speed is reduced by half. Furthermore, any mount or vehicle they ride is likewise slowed. The effect lasts one hour, or one day if the god has 20 HD or more.

Seems a little weak compared to other powers.
Increased to Exhaustion on failed save, faitgued for 1 round on a sucesful save.


Quote
Quote
Free Move-You need Divine Celerity to pick this ability. You can use Divine Celerity as an immediate action (or as a free action even if it isn't your turn if you have 20 HD or more).

What does this do, in light of the updates to Divine Celerity?  Is the point that you can use this during other people's initiative/as an interruption, at the cost of your immediate action?
Yes, it allows you to act on the opponent's round.

Quote
Quote
Hand of Death-The god points to any mortal within the god’s sensory range and snuffs out its life. There must be an unbroken line of effect between the god and the target. This can be used 1/day per HD. This ability works like the Destruction spell, except that there is no material component. The mortal is allowed a Fortitude saving throw with a DC of 10+ the god’s Charisma bonus +1/2 HD (+10 DC if the god has 20 HD or more). Even if the save succeeds, the subject takes 1d6 points of damage for every 2 HD of the god, which may kill it anyway. If the attack kills the mortal (either through a failed saving throw or through damage), the mortal cannot be raised or resurrected afterward, except by a god of equal or higher rank using the Gift of Life, Life and Death, or Mass Life and Death salient divine ability.

I guess philosophically, while cool, this is sort of the same as divine blast+.  "You can repeatedly try to kill an opponent, who will never know you're there".

Oh ... and probably you're not there.
Hmm, added a clause where trying to spam it multiple times against the same target makes them gain a stacking +4 bonus on the save, and no damaged on a suceed anymore for 24 hours. Added that to the "upgraded" versions as well.


Quote
Quote
Know Death-The god knows the exact moment and circumstances of any mortal creature’s death just by looking at the creature.

lol.  :)

"I see your future ... you will die Very soon  :D"
That may be more problematic than I first tought, reduced to just knowing the death of someone that's already killed.


Quote
Quote
Quote
Mass Divine Blast
-You need Divine Blast and Divine Rank 6 to pick this option. This ability works like the Divine Blast ability, except that the deity can specify up to five targets per rank, no two of which can be more than one mile apart per rank, or an area. The area can be a cone, burst, spread, or cylinder. A cone can be up to 10 feet long per rank. A burst or spread can have a radius of up to 5 feet per rank. A cylinder can have a radius of up to 5 feet per rank and a height of up to 10 feet per rank. The deity chooses the attack’s exact form and dimensions. If the god has 20 HD or more, multiply all max radius/length/height by 10
.

Similar objections.

If we compare this to fireball
Damage is *2  ~ Maximize is almost as good  (+3 LA)
You can custom select your targets ~ Shape Spell is almost as good (+1)
Range is much larger ~ Enlarge Spell is not really as good, but the closest we got (+1)
Damage is typeless ~ Energy Subsitition + (+0 and a feat)
Uses a save vs. touch instead of a Reflex save ~ irressistable spell is better at +4, so call it (+3)

Basically, if you spend 5 metamagic feats and +8 Spell Levels, a fireball would be as good.
Mass Divine Blast now deals reduced damage if you target more than 2 creatures, up to a minimum of half "normal" Divine Blast damage.

Quote
Quote
Master Crafter

It's cool, but it would be nice if the coolness scaled with level.
Weapons/armor/shield now gain a plain enanchment bonus equal to 1/4 your ranks on the craft skills. For example, if she has 4 ranks in Craft (Swords) and Craft (Runes), that god's crafts would gain a +1 enanchment bonus. And if you have 20 HD or more, they count as epic for bypassing DR.

Quote
Quote
Rejuvenation
I'm ok with these kinds of abilities - seems fun to me with little negative to play balance.

Might be good to have some special way of making the killing permanent even for a mortal ... a way that gets harder and more obscure as the god gets higher in level.
Done.

Quote
Quote
Speak With Creatures

Does this work with any of your domains?
Yes.

Quote
Quote
Supreme Iniative[/u]

Powerful, but fine by itself.

Note that there is a Divine Characteristic that also lets you add your Divine Rank to attribute (initiative) checks, which would mean that you'd never lose initiative.  Perhaps they shouldn't stack until a reasonably high level?
I decided it would be best if God Ability divine characteristic didn't work with Iniative checks, changed.

Quote
Quote
True Shapechance

Doesn't seem that much stronger than shift form.  In an absolute sense it is balanced, but at that level, people would compare it to Polymorph any Object and Shapechange -- versus those it is much weaker.

That said, I don't think this should be like those.  Just because the alternatives are broken, doesn't mean that this has to be.  However, it would be cool if somehow it gave some random perks that made it special.  Perhaps you count as that race for magic items, if you have children while in that form, the children are of that race, etc.
Good ideas, added something along those lines, let me know what you think.

Quote
Quote
Undead Qualities- You need to have picked God Ward at least four times to pick this.

Great Change
Ah, you caught my stealth fix! :p

Offline DavidWL

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Re: Gods
« Reply #38 on: September 20, 2012, 05:50:27 AM »
Quote
Quote
Quote
Hand of Death-The god points to any mortal within the god’s sensory range and snuffs out its life. There must be an unbroken line of effect between the god and the target. This can be used 1/day per HD. This ability works like the Destruction spell, except that there is no material component. The mortal is allowed a Fortitude saving throw with a DC of 10+ the god’s Charisma bonus +1/2 HD (+10 DC if the god has 20 HD or more). Even if the save succeeds, the subject takes 1d6 points of damage for every 2 HD of the god, which may kill it anyway. If the attack kills the mortal (either through a failed saving throw or through damage), the mortal cannot be raised or resurrected afterward, except by a god of equal or higher rank using the Gift of Life, Life and Death, or Mass Life and Death salient divine ability.

I guess philosophically, while cool, this is sort of the same as divine blast+.  "You can repeatedly try to kill an opponent, who will never know you're there".

Oh ... and probably you're not there.
Hmm, added a clause where trying to spam it multiple times against the same target makes them gain a stacking +4 bonus on the save, and no damaged on a suceed anymore for 24 hours. Added that to the "upgraded" versions as well.

What about making it so that you can only attempt to use this against any particular opponent once, until you level up?


Quote
Quote
Quote
True Shapechance

Doesn't seem that much stronger than shift form.  In an absolute sense it is balanced, but at that level, people would compare it to Polymorph any Object and Shapechange -- versus those it is much weaker.

That said, I don't think this should be like those.  Just because the alternatives are broken, doesn't mean that this has to be.  However, it would be cool if somehow it gave some random perks that made it special.  Perhaps you count as that race for magic items, if you have children while in that form, the children are of that race, etc.
Good ideas, added something along those lines, let me know what you think.
I like it.

Good changes.  Thanks!  I'm all feedbacked out :D

Very Best
David

Offline oslecamo

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Re: Gods
« Reply #39 on: September 21, 2012, 12:58:48 PM »
Quote
Quote
Quote
Hand of Death-The god points to any mortal within the god’s sensory range and snuffs out its life. There must be an unbroken line of effect between the god and the target. This can be used 1/day per HD. This ability works like the Destruction spell, except that there is no material component. The mortal is allowed a Fortitude saving throw with a DC of 10+ the god’s Charisma bonus +1/2 HD (+10 DC if the god has 20 HD or more). Even if the save succeeds, the subject takes 1d6 points of damage for every 2 HD of the god, which may kill it anyway. If the attack kills the mortal (either through a failed saving throw or through damage), the mortal cannot be raised or resurrected afterward, except by a god of equal or higher rank using the Gift of Life, Life and Death, or Mass Life and Death salient divine ability.

I guess philosophically, while cool, this is sort of the same as divine blast+.  "You can repeatedly try to kill an opponent, who will never know you're there".

Oh ... and probably you're not there.
Hmm, added a clause where trying to spam it multiple times against the same target makes them gain a stacking +4 bonus on the save, and no damaged on a suceed anymore for 24 hours. Added that to the "upgraded" versions as well.

What about making it so that you can only attempt to use this against any particular opponent once, until you level up?
That sounds a little too limiting, added that plus you can try to affect them again if they willingly attack you or of your temples.


Good changes.  Thanks!  I'm all feedbacked out :D

Very Best
David

Cough feedback on Venerable Battlefield cough.