Author Topic: Reroll save 1x/day or +1 luck to saves?  (Read 2820 times)

Offline phaedrusxy

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Reroll save 1x/day or +1 luck to saves?
« on: November 12, 2014, 08:47:29 PM »
Which do you think is better? I can basically get one or the other via PF traits, but not both at once.

If you're curious the combos are:
half-orc with the "toothy" alt racial trait (replaces orcish ferocity) and Second Chance religious trait
OR half-orc with Mother's Teeth (religious trait, Lamashtu) and Sacred Tattoos racial trait (also replaces orcish ferocity)

Going with the reroll will let me worship whomever I want, but that's not really a big deal for this particular character.

Edit: the character. feel free to offer other tips. :D
« Last Edit: November 12, 2014, 08:52:20 PM by phaedrusxy »
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Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: Reroll save 1x/day or +1 luck to saves?
« Reply #1 on: November 12, 2014, 09:55:53 PM »
Depends on the number of times invoked.
If you need to make a Save more than four times per day the bonus is better.

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« Last Edit: November 12, 2014, 10:01:56 PM by SorO_Lost »

Offline phaedrusxy

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Re: Reroll save 1x/day or +1 luck to saves?
« Reply #2 on: November 12, 2014, 09:58:34 PM »
I was leaning towards the reroll, and this convinces me. I don't need to reroll every failed save... only those that I am actually worried about. If I get hit with a Fireball, I won't reroll it (unless it would kill me). If I fail vs. Dominate... I'll use the reroll. I'm not likely to fail more than one critical save per day anyway (hopefully...), so I think the reroll is better.
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Offline wotmaniac

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Re: Reroll save 1x/day or +1 luck to saves?
« Reply #3 on: November 12, 2014, 10:57:33 PM »
Given your (sensible) attitudes towards using rerolls; then yes, the reroll is better.
If you're going that route, I don't think grabbing up more sources of reroll would be unreasonable.

Offline Garryl

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Re: Reroll save 1x/day or +1 luck to saves?
« Reply #4 on: November 12, 2014, 11:48:24 PM »
The reroll is probably better. The benefits of a reroll are a bit better than what the average roll results would imply, assuming that you're not running into a ton of saves on the far end of the spectrum.

If you would fail a save that you need to roll X or better on to succeed, the odds that a +1 would make it a success instead of a failure is 1/(X-1). The odds of a reroll making a success is (21-X)/20. Assuming you need the same number on every save during the day, a +1 bonus is worth a single daily reroll (in terms of average number of saves improved to successes) after (21-X)(X-1)/20 = (-X^2 +22X - 21)/20 failed saves.

The +1 doesn't help if you'd normally need a natural 1 or 2 on to succeed, because then you succeed on a 2 and fail on a 1 either way. Likewise, a +1 bonus is also no help if you're still only succeeding on a natural 20 after applying it.


min                     saves
roll  +1 bonus  reroll  /day
1      0.0%     95%     inf
2      0.0%     95%     inf
3     50.0%     90%     1.8
4     33.3%     85%     2.55
5     25.0%     80%     3.2
6     20.0%     75%     3.75
7     16.7%     70%     4.2
8     14.3%     65%     4.55
9     12.5%     60%     4.8
10    11.1%     55%     4.95
11    10.0%     50%     5.0
12     9.1%     45%     4.95
13     8.3%     40%     4.8
14     7.7%     35%     4.55
15     7.1%     30%     4.2
16     6.7%     25%     3.75
17     6.3%     20%     3.2
18     5.9%     15%     2.55
19     5.6%     10%     1.8
20     5.3%      5%     0.95
21+    0.0%      5%     inf

Offline Chemus

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Re: Reroll save 1x/day or +1 luck to saves?
« Reply #5 on: November 13, 2014, 04:46:16 AM »
The math is compelling, but allow me to try to reinforce your sensible decision in another fashion. Which effect is easier to reproduce by other means (such as an item), the reroll, or the +1 bonus to saves?
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Offline phaedrusxy

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Re: Reroll save 1x/day or +1 luck to saves?
« Reply #6 on: November 13, 2014, 11:25:51 AM »
You know... it's possible to get both, if I'm willing to burn a feat on it. You can get the bite attack as a feat.
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Offline Nunkuruji

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Re: Reroll save 1x/day or +1 luck to saves?
« Reply #7 on: November 14, 2014, 10:58:32 AM »
Garryl is certainly right

Presuming this is E6 Gestalt as you linked that character...

Got any allies providing Benediction?

I'm not certain where you can create a 1/day reroll with less than a Break Enchantment (4th)

However, do you expect deadly enough SoDs in E6 to need a 1/day reroll vs having the blanket luck bonus? Iron Heart Surge instead?

Offline phaedrusxy

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Re: Reroll save 1x/day or +1 luck to saves?
« Reply #8 on: November 14, 2014, 11:41:49 AM »
Garryl is certainly right

Presuming this is E6 Gestalt as you linked that character...

Got any allies providing Benediction?

I'm not certain where you can create a 1/day reroll with less than a Break Enchantment (4th)

However, do you expect deadly enough SoDs in E6 to need a 1/day reroll vs having the blanket luck bonus? Iron Heart Surge instead?
It's not E6, it's just gestalt. It's PF, and I'm using Path of War (not ToB). I'm not sure there is an IHS equivalent.

There are certainly other ways to get rerolls (Luck domain, Luck Blade, etc), but they're not easy to get.
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Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: Reroll save 1x/day or +1 luck to saves?
« Reply #9 on: November 14, 2014, 11:51:39 AM »
*cough* Luck Feats & the PrC that gives 3 over 3 levels *cough*

Offline awaken_D_M_golem

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Re: Reroll save 1x/day or +1 luck to saves?
« Reply #10 on: November 14, 2014, 02:55:52 PM »
The younger 4e C.O. guys had a looonnggg argument
amongst themselves, whether a situational +2 is better
than a constant +1.  iirc They resolved that situationally.
But that given 4e game maths, certainly even a 1/day +2
will be better at least some of the time.
But but I don't know the other assumptions they used.
(I was way out of their loop by then)
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Offline Nunkuruji

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Re: Reroll save 1x/day or +1 luck to saves?
« Reply #11 on: November 14, 2014, 02:57:39 PM »
In that case I would weigh

the cost of items that grant x/day reroll
the cost of items that gran luck bonuses
the cost of items that grant other feats you would consider
consider whether other feats being considered can not otherwise be bought
and consider also whether any allies are going to be casting party save boosters with the luck descriptor.