Chill Touch Familar

[faeryn]

This is something that just randomly occured to me and I was wondering if it would actually be a legitimate tactic...

Familiars have an ability to deliver touch spells and they are permitted a full round of actions seperate from thierr master (but durring the same turn)... so...Given that a familiar uses the same BAB as their master (or their own if it's higher)... If I cast a touch spell with multiple charges such as Chill Touch and use my familiar to deliver it, could my familiar deliver multiple chill touch attacks in the round the spell was cast via it's iterative attacks?

[Jackinthegreen]

Assuming the familiar has the correct anatomy, it's looking like a yes.  Though if they are tiny or smaller they would provoke an AoO for having to go into a creature's square to melee touch attack it.

Keep in mind the caster can also hold the charge on Chill Touch and some other spells and then use the next round for a full attack.

[faeryn]

Assuming the familiar has the correct anatomy, it's looking like a yes.  Though if they are tiny or smaller they would provoke an AoO for having to go into a creature's square to melee touch attack it.

Keep in mind the caster can also hold the charge on Chill Touch and some other spells and then use the next round for a full attack.

The main idea was to maximize on action economy... since it's a standard action for the caster to cast the touch spell and can only deliver 1 attack in the round they cast it... but since it doesn't count against the familiars actions to be charged with a touch spell by their master, I figured it'd be a nice way to get a full round of touch attacks in without waiting for the following round. Make it a Quickened Chill Touch (or any other deisred touch spell) and then this is shaping up to be rather promising indeed...

I won't be able to take  advantage of this in the current game I'm in since Necromancy is one of my prohibited schools. And I can't think of any other touch spells that have multiple charges atm... but it's atleast good to know that this sort of tactic should work...


I had a followup question though, since I don't quite understand part of the rules regarding touch spells...

In the rules it says something along the lines of being able to touch 1 target as a standard action or up to 6 as a full round action... and I remember reading somewhere that the maximum targets for a touch spell is directly linked to your BAB unless the spell specifies a number of targets... this seems like it might be conflicting with the rule about a touch spell being discharged upon completing a touch attack...

So from what the rules say both of the following appear to be both true and false...

1) BAB 15 touches 3 targets as a full round action an then the spell discharges

2) BAB 15 touches 3 targets as a full round action but dischares the spell after the first target'

If the spell was Chill Touch then according to 1) a full round of touchs would only cost 1 charge, but accordding to 2) it would cost 3 charges... the rules seem to both support and not support both of these outcome...

Personally I'm inclined to belive it would use 3 charges but going strictly by what is written in the rules I honestly have to question this...

[Jackinthegreen]

Could you provide links for those specific rules?

[faeryn]

Holding the Charge
If you don’t discharge the spell in the round when you cast the spell, you can hold the discharge of the spell (hold the charge) indefinitely. You can continue to make touch attacks round after round. You can touch one friend as a standard action or up to six friends as a full-round action. If you touch anything or anyone while holding a charge, even unintentionally, the spell discharges. If you cast another spell, the touch spell dissipates. Alternatively, you may make a normal unarmed attack (or an attack with a natural weapon) while holding a charge. In this case, you aren’t considered armed and you provoke attacks of opportunity as normal for the attack. (If your unarmed attack or natural weapon attack doesn’t provoke attacks of opportunity, neither does this attack.) If the attack hits, you deal normal damage for your unarmed attack or natural weapon and the spell discharges. If the attack misses, you are still holding the charge.

It appears it was all under the same rule... which makes it seem even more conflicting... well except for the part about it being tied to your BAB... that part I'm fairly certain was actually from one of the FAQs... and that's not the part I'm conflicted about anyway...

The wording of the rule seems to imply that a single charge can be used for up to 6 touches as long as they all occur in the same round as a part of the same full-round action

[Chemus]

Here, 'discharges' means 'the effect of the touch spell happens'. Note the word 'dissipates' in the rule; discharge =/= dissipate.

[faeryn]

Here, 'discharges' means 'the effect of the touch spell happens'. Note the word 'dissipates' in the rule; discharge =/= dissipate.

That honestly does not answer the question at hand or have any relation to it... the quantification of the spell dissipating when another spell is cast is there to define that the effect of the touch spell comes to a complete end should you cast another spell. As opposed to simply using up 1 charge if the spell has multiple charges, casting a second spell (without the related feats/class features or having previously cast Spell Flower) ends all remaining charges. That's pretty clear and not in question.

What is in question is the part about touching 6 targets as a full-round action and whether doing so uses only 1 charge for the full action or 1 charge per touch. As I stated, the wording of the rule suggests that it might only use 1 charge for the full action, but at the same time it also seems to suggest the opposite... it's rather unclear which one it actually is...

[awaken_D_M_golem]

heh , I started reading this and went 5e.
And it would work (give or take a smidge of jargon)
... right up until the word "iterative".
 

[phaedrusxy]

Here, 'discharges' means 'the effect of the touch spell happens'. Note the word 'dissipates' in the rule; discharge =/= dissipate.

That honestly does not answer the question at hand or have any relation to it... the quantification of the spell dissipating when another spell is cast is there to define that the effect of the touch spell comes to a complete end should you cast another spell. As opposed to simply using up 1 charge if the spell has multiple charges, casting a second spell (without the related feats/class features or having previously cast Spell Flower) ends all remaining charges. That's pretty clear and not in question.

What is in question is the part about touching 6 targets as a full-round action and whether doing so uses only 1 charge for the full action or 1 charge per touch. As I stated, the wording of the rule suggests that it might only use 1 charge for the full action, but at the same time it also seems to suggest the opposite... it's rather unclear which one it actually is...

Some beneficial spells (i.e. buffs) have multiple targets that all must be targetted "at once". This is talking about those spells, not offensive spells like Chill Touch. I don't remember where/how this is spelled out (or have time to dig for it), but I'm certain it's true.

Chill Touch uses a charge per touch, and you cannot use multiple appendages to deliver the touches (there was a spell/feat/something in Savage Species that specifically allowed this named Spellflower, IIRC). So it is basically limited by your iteratives.

[Chemus]

Uh, with chill touch the spell actually states how many touch attacks you can make with it.

...Range: Touch
Targets: Creature or creatures touched (up to one/level)
Duration: Instantaneous...

...Each touch channels negative energy that deals 1d6 points of damage. The touched creature also takes 1 point of Strength damage unless it makes a successful Fortitude saving throw. You can use this melee touch attack up to one time per level.

An undead creature you touch takes no damage of either sort, but it must make a successful Will saving throw or flee as if panicked for 1d4 rounds +1 round per caster level.

chill touch says nothing that contradicts the duration rules:

Touch Spells and Holding the Charge: In most cases, if you don’t discharge a touch spell on the round you cast it, you can hold the charge (postpone the discharge of the spell) indefinitely. You can make touch attacks round after round. If you cast another spell, the touch spell dissipates.

Some touch spells allow you to touch multiple targets as part of the spell. You can’t hold the charge of such a spell; you must touch all targets of the spell in the same round that you finish casting the spell.

Neither you nor your familiar need iterative attacks; you get 1 touch attack per level, all in the one round. My earlier position about discharging was incorrect.

[faeryn]

Neither you nor your familiar need iterative attacks; you get 1 touch attack per level, all in the one round. My earlier position about discharging was incorrect.

This I actually know for a fact is not the case... The rule you quoted applies specifically to spells that specify a number of targets. Chill Touch does not specify a number of targets. It specifies a number of charges. You are limited by your iterative attacks on how many Chill Touches you can deliver in each round but you may hold the charge until all charges are used up.

[Chemus]

I just quoted the entire mechanics of chill touch. Support your statement.

[phaedrusxy]

Touch

You must touch a creature or object to affect it. A touch spell that deals damage can score a critical hit just as a weapon can. A touch spell threatens a critical hit on a natural roll of 20 and deals double damage on a successful critical hit. Some touch spells allow you to touch multiple targets. You can touch as many willing targets as you can reach as part of the casting, but all targets of the spell must be touched in the same round that you finish casting the spell.

Touching multiple targets in a round only works on willing targets. This is talking about things like Plane Shift, not Chill Touch.

Touch Spells in Combat

Many spells have a range of touch. To use these spells, you cast the spell and then touch the subject, either in the same round or any time later. In the same round that you cast the spell, you may also touch (or attempt to touch) the target. You may take your move before casting the spell, after touching the target, or between casting the spell and touching the target. You can automatically touch one friend or use the spell on yourself, but to touch an opponent, you must succeed on an attack roll.

Touch Attacks
Touching an opponent with a touch spell is considered to be an armed attack and therefore does not provoke attacks of opportunity. However, the act of casting a spell does provoke an attack of opportunity. Touch attacks come in two types: melee touch attacks and ranged touch attacks. You can score critical hits with either type of attack. Your opponent’s AC against a touch attack does not include any armor bonus, shield bonus, or natural armor bonus. His size modifier, Dexterity modifier, and deflection bonus (if any) all apply normally.

Holding the Charge
If you don’t discharge the spell in the round when you cast the spell, you can hold the discharge of the spell (hold the charge) indefinitely. You can continue to make touch attacks round after round. You can touch one friend as a standard action or up to six friends as a full-round action. If you touch anything or anyone while holding a charge, even unintentionally, the spell discharges. If you cast another spell, the touch spell dissipates. Alternatively, you may make a normal unarmed attack (or an attack with a natural weapon) while holding a charge. In this case, you aren’t considered armed and you provoke attacks of opportunity as normal for the attack. (If your unarmed attack or natural weapon attack doesn’t provoke attacks of opportunity, neither does this attack.) If the attack hits, you deal normal damage for your unarmed attack or natural weapon and the spell discharges. If the attack misses, you are still holding the charge.

Again, it's talking about friendly targets, not attacking people.

Now I agree this stuff is really confusing when you're trying to use it on a spell like Chill Touch, because it wasn't written for spells like Chill Touch. I think the FAQ or Sage or Rules of the Game addressed this at some point and clarified that it works like most people assumed it did (you use your iterative attacks from BAB), but I can't give you a direct link/quote because that was like 10 years ago and I don't have the kind of time required to go dig it up.

[Chemus]

Faq actually had precious little to say about touch spells, and only said one thing about chill touch, :

Q: How does the duskblade’s arcane channeling class feature (PH2 20) work with spells that allow multiple touch attacks, such as chill touch?

For a spell that allows you to make multiple touch attacks against separate creatures (such as chill touch), you only channel one touch of the spell through your weapon attack, regardless of the number of touches allowed by the spell. If the spell’s duration is instantaneous (as chill touch), its effect is expended by a single weapon attack, even if the spell would normally allow multiple simultaneous touches.
If the spell allowed you to make multiple simultaneous touch attacks against the same target, treat it as if you had targeted the enemy struck by your weapon with all the eligible attacks.

Bolding mine. I looked at it prior to my previous post to see if anything regarding any touch spells had been put in. The Duskblade section was it, and it was kinda sparse.


If you're saying that chill touch instantaneously makes your hand cold until you've touched 1 target per caster level, retaining the cold after each touch, over multiple rounds, until you've touched 1 creature per caster level, then I think you're wrong. I read it as you touch up to CL targets, all at once, making a ranged touch attack against each. You can't hold the charge because the spell specifies multiple targets touched. FAQ appears to uphold this view, but only peripherally; it's only in an answer to a question tangentially related to the question here.

Chill touch allows, even requires, that the touches all happen at once. It can't be held (the faq didn't say that, but the rules do.) It allows you to touch up to one creature per level as part of the spell; "target: creature or creatures touched (up to 1 per level)...duration: instantaneous...you can use this melee touch attack up to one time per level."

The spell has its rules, some of which contradict the limitations in the combat section ('up to 6 willing targets as a full-round action'), but none of which contradict the magic overview's duration section regarding holding a touch spell.

The rules you've quoted do not supersede the rule regarding holding a charge; the rules in magic overview are more specific in regards to holding a charge. It says nothing about willing or unwilling targets, and nothing in Touch Spells in Combat is contradictory to it.

[faeryn]

The information on Chill Touch was from the 3.0 FAQ

Chill touch follows all the rules for holding the charge on a touch spell except that a chill touch spell has one “charge” per caster level. Each time you touch anything with your hand, you lose one charge off the chill touch, but anything you already had in your hand when you cast the spell doesn’t count as being touched. You can’t have two chill touch spells running at once, because if you cast a spell while holding a charge, the whole spell you’re holding dissipates.
Otherwise, you can indeed use the hand bearing the chill touch effect as a weapon. When you’re using the two-weapon fighting rules, your own hand is a light weapon for you.

That right there tells you that you CAN hold the charge, and that you hold 1 charge per level from it... however it also seems to answer my earlier question too...

[linklord231]

Chill Touch, as written, doesn't work properly.  It's obvious that the designers meant for it to work like Produce Flame, where you could make attacks over multiple rounds until the attacks were used up.  But that's not what they wrote when they put Target: Creature or Creatures Touched and Duration: Instantaneous in the spell block. 

I personally houserule it to resolve the discrepancies:

Chill Touch
Necromancy
Level: Sorcerer/Wizard 1
Casting Time:  1 standard action
Range: Personal
Target: Self
Duration: 1 min./level, or until discharged
Saving Throw: Fort partial or Will Negates, see text
Spell Resistance: Yes

The touch of your hand, which glows with blue energy, disrupts the life force of living creatures. While this spell is in effect, you can make a melee touch attack to deal 1d6 points of negative energy damage to living creatures. A touched creature also takes 1 point of Strength damage unless it makes a successful Fortitude saving throw. You can use this melee touch attack up to one time per level, after which the spell expires.

An undead creature you touch takes no damage of either sort, but it must make a successful Will saving throw or flee as if panicked for 1d4 rounds +1 round per caster level.

[Chemus]

The information on Chill Touch was from the 3.0 FAQ

Chill touch follows all the rules for holding the charge on a touch spell except that a chill touch spell has one “charge” per caster level. Each time you touch anything with your hand, you lose one charge off the chill touch, but anything you already had in your hand when you cast the spell doesn’t count as being touched. You can’t have two chill touch spells running at once, because if you cast a spell while holding a charge, the whole spell you’re holding dissipates.
Otherwise, you can indeed use the hand bearing the chill touch effect as a weapon. When you’re using the two-weapon fighting rules, your own hand is a light weapon for you.

That right there tells you that you CAN hold the charge, and that you hold 1 charge per level from it... however it also seems to answer my earlier question too...

Chill touch didn't change over the 3.0 to 3.5 update, but either errata or base rules did; my 3.0 PHB doesn't have the clause about being unable to hold touch spells that have multiple targets, but the 3.5 SRD does. Thus the 3.0 FAQ holds less weight than the 3.5 rulebook. Not that it's unreasonable to houserule that chill touch happens as normal attacks until used up, but the holding a charge rules say that's not how it normally works. Touching willing targets allows up to 6 touches as a full-round action. Touching unwilling targets is normally an attack action. Chill touch says that you can make as many touch attacks as your caster level. Specific>general, or chill touch gets you 1 target, since you can't hold it...

[EDIT] Actually, on reading the spells in the SRD, chill touch is the only non-harmless touch spell that can affect multiple targets. In order to operate as written, either you may make as many touch attacks as your CL, or you may hold the charge until used up. Each reading would be a houserule; without them, it only ever may affect one target touched, as that's how many you can attempt to touch on the round you cast a spell, and as its a spell that can affect multiple touched targets, you can't hold the charge in 3.5 (I actually don't see a use in that change to the touch spell rules; so you can't designate D-Door targets over a 1-hour span?) [/EDIT]

[Kethrian]

Here's what the Rules Compendium has to say on the matter:

Allies and Touch Spells: ...
You can move before casting the spell, after touching the target, or between casting the spell and touching the target. If you use a full-round action to touch multiple targets, you can take only a 5-foot step.
Opponents and Touch Spells: To use a touch spell against an opponent during combat, you cast the spell and then touch that opponent. You can touch the opponent on the same turn you cast the spell.  To touch an opponent, you must succeed on an attack roll to make a melee touch attack. You can hold the charge and move as defined for touching allies.

And then further on, under Weaponlike Spells (which are earlier defined as any spell that requires an attack roll), it states:

Attacks
Casting time takes precedence over normal rules for attacks, unless a spell’s description says otherwise.  If a spell allows its caster to make multiple attacks and has a casting time of 1 standard action, all those attacks occur during that standard action. The caster uses the highest applicable attack bonus for each attack in such a case.

So yes, a quickened spell would allow you to deliver the touch as part of the swift casting, and would allow you to even cast, move, then touch, and, if you only moved up to your speed, still have a standard action left.

Had to dig up an old post of mine, as it seemed quite relevant to this thread.  So, by how Chill Touch is written, it would appear that you make your CL in touch attacks as part of the standard action to cast the spell, unless you hold the charge.

[phaedrusxy]

Wow... that's completely batshit insane, and breaks the hell out of a simple 1st level spell.

[Chemus]

So, you have to use all of it at once, since the Allies and Touch Spells section (RC 126) says that you can't hold the charge if a spell allows you to touch multiple recipients as part of casting the spell, and the Opponents and Touch Spell section directly references the Allies section: "You can hold the charge and move as defined for touching allies."