Author Topic: DISCUSSION: Core-only Wizard20 vs a Splatbook-Enabled Fighter20 - Lycan's Duel  (Read 24622 times)

Offline Halinn

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Celerity.
Contingency. Admittedly, splatwiz could have a crafted contingency against that, but that means fewer contingencies overall. Even with splatwiz's guaranteed first action (which pretty much was a given anyhow, given the amount of initiative boosters outside of core), a significant amount of defensive measures against possible actions do exist in core, especially with clerical aid.

Offline awaken_D_M_golem

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(not defending the Fighter but ...)

The tactics and preliminaries of the Core Wiz 20 + Cohort 17
are very different than the Splat Wiz 18 + Fighter 20  tactics.
It would make for an interesting fight.

Limited Wish and Wish can create effects, that are known
because the non-core material is being used.
It gives access to the splats, if not full bore.

Perhaps to be fair , the Splats should actually be (Splat minus Core).
No core material for the Splats outside of the basics.
Then there's the argument about what that would mean ...
« Last Edit: April 09, 2012, 06:19:03 PM by awaken_D_M_golem »
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Offline snakeman830

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(not defending the Fighter but ...)

The tactics and preliminaries of the Core Wiz 20 + Cohort 17
are very different than the Splat Wiz 18 + Fighter 20  tactics.
It would make for an interesting fight.

Limited Wish and Wish can create effects, that are known
because the non-core material is being used.
It gives access to the splats, if not full bore.

Perhaps to be fair , the Splats should actually be (Splat minus Core).
No core material for the Splats outside of the basics.
Then there's the argument about what that would mean ...
I would imagine the class itself and skills would remain, but feats and spells are right out. Mundane equipment I would leave available for everyone.
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Offline SorO_Lost

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I'd just like to note. What an epic f*cking pain in the ass.
This topic (discussion): Here
This topic (real thread): Here
Old results post: Here
The only thread with links on builds: Here
The none-existent build: Here
These should have been a mandatory part of ALL those posts instead of making me load one after another like some lame porn cycle. Now that I'm in a foul mood...

**

And no. It's perfectly valid to double (or more!) your WBL through crafting if you've got the feats and the spells and you're willing to expend the time, gp, and xp.

Now that I think about it, most of the feats I took were crafting feats, and I had a ton of rods of absorption and metamagic rods for that specific reason.
You reference being lv20 have a 10th-level Simulacrum and those are made at 1/2 you're level. You didn't expend XP.
You had more Wealth than you should have had. You didn't expend gold.
You had infinite time as you skipped everything up to the fight. You didn't expend time.
&
A. Anyone can use an ounce of gold to craft two ounces under the rules of the game, therefore anyone can break WBL.
B. And WBL doesn't care if you can find a way to break it, this is the value your DM is trying to keep you at.

I think one of my lasts posts in here mentioned the Wizard cheating by never actually showing up to the fight and not being "ringed out" and now I learned his creator cheated extra gold in based on his opinion and unagreed upon houserules he added. It's like the more I read this thread, the better it becomes at explaining why Fighter vs Wizard threads are never ending. ...Oh look, people want to start another one already. It's working.

Offline awaken_D_M_golem

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hmm ... an explicit Accounting of every EXP could change things some.

Let's say:
4 PCs of level 19 , 1 Crafter of level 18 + gear
"exp is a river" improves the Crafter by about 1/3rd of a level
4 PCs of mid level 19 , 1 Crafter of level 19 + same gear
Crafter decides to not bother catching up exp and crafts instead
4 PCs of level 20 , 1 Crafter of level 19 + more gear

It wouldn't be that hard to just say any crafting requires 1 ditched level.
Unless all or most of the crafting takes place before level 15
... that gives enough time to catch up on the exp, by level 20.
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Offline Lycanthromancer

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You reference being lv20 have a 10th-level Simulacrum and those are made at 1/2 you're level. You didn't expend XP.
Ahem.

Quote
2.) Each of us takes a 20th-level base-class all the way to 20 (with 200,000 xp), +0 LA races only - unless the race is obviously underpowered for a +1 LA, such as a Blue (we would have to agree on it, however - and we can use any age category), no PrCs, substitution levels, or alternate base-classes. Outside of the core 3, only feats and items allowed. Full 20th-level starting wealth.
I had 10,000 xp to play around with and still be 20th level.

I DID post links to all the relevant information at the time, but it's not like I expected there to be a discussion several years later that would require me to actually account for all that stuff.

Offline SorO_Lost

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Ahem.
<snip>
I DID post links to all the relevant information at the time, but it's not like I expected there to be a discussion several years later that would require me to actually account for all that stuff.
I know you posted the sheet, I found the thread like five links in. WotC's boards take forever to load for some reason and it's was annoying to have to go through several of them just to find out one website in the five long pile of requotes chain already broke things when simply quoting the original is all that would have been needed.

**

As far as your XP point out. What did I just say in my last post? You still didn't pay time/gold, glossed over Craft thinking only you exclusively can make money, ignored WBL rules, and yet that still wasn't enough. You want to draw attention to needed things that were set up so you can ignore costly components and such as if they weren't put in there as some kind of balance factor to begin with.

Unagreeable win conditions is what keeps these types of threads alive. And this isn't even some that's "cheating to me" thing, like the empty void you fought in which btw has been enough to incite pages of hate, you flat out broke WBL and your excuse for doing so doesn't even apply to the scenario your used it in. If you actually want to beat a Fighter, you have to do so in a way that's accepted. Like picture arguing with a friend which is the all around gun in your favorite FPS, but when you ask them to prove why theirs it better they respond by using an auto aim hack to repeatedly kill you instantly. Would you really agree with him?

Offline awaken_D_M_golem

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Well ... wouldn't most of the Gear have been made
sometime earlier, like say levels 3 through 18 or 19?
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Offline SorO_Lost

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Well ... wouldn't most of the Gear have been made
sometime earlier, like say levels 3 through 18 or 19?
Pointed that out last post.

And no. It's perfectly valid to double (or more!) your WBL through crafting if you've got the feats and the spells and you're willing to expend the time, gp, and xp.
You reference being lv20 have a 10th-level Simulacrum and those are made at 1/2 you're level. You didn't expend XP.
You had more Wealth than you should have had. You didn't expend gold.
You had infinite time as you skipped everything up to the fight. You didn't expend time.
He corrected the XP part by pointing out yet another grossly in favor of the Wizard rule but at least it's preestablished.

WBL isn't just something pulled out of the author's ass, it's a limitation for balance of wealth for each level and directly controlled by a DM. It's as much part of your level limits as say normally having one feat at level 1 opposed to picking fifteen of them. And even WBL aside, their match rules state 20th level starting wealth, not and two years of trying to break the economy.

What makes this stand apart from the rest of the omfgs is Ly's reasoning for it. Like "and spells" means you get to ignore rules and it's totally valid if you paid using these three different things. Except he didn't and I hit my limit for his favoristism reek when he posted that.

Offline Lycanthromancer

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If the fighter was capable of crafting magic items he would have been more than welcome to do so.

And if you can't figure out why that's relevant to the subject on relative class power, I don't know what to say.

Offline awaken_D_M_golem

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hmm ... I wonder what reasonable Crafting for the Fighter would look like ?

Let's say the Fighter is in a party with a Rogue,
and Caster Crafters for Divine, Arcane, and Psionic.
No Artificers for simplicities sake.

Magic Mart is not available, but selling useless magic items for 1/2 price is available.
Party gets normal WBL but the Items are absolutely random.
So the real WBL trails normal by some calculatable amount.

From levels 1 to 5 not much happens.
From levels 6 to 10 Fighter has below normal WBL
... and begs his boys/dawgs to craft him stuff.
I'd wanna see the exact accounting, even though it affects the high level stuff not much.

From levels 11 to 15 it's about the same, but his boys will
make him stuff if he pays for everything and treats any spellcasting as a Service.
The extra cost isn't much, it's more a matter of what the Crafters can do.

From levels 16+ the party casters have figured out they rule the world,
and they might as well throw a bone or two to their dawgFighter.
Heck, they've got the down time, what with Genesis and Far Realms and stuff.
So they make stuff like a near full on magic mart and have access to
Bauglir/PLZ's reducing item costs handbook , using most of it.
I'd wanna see as exact as possible accounting, if that all is happening.

Now I don't know / don't wanna guess, what the ratio would be
between the core Wiz's gear and the splat Fighter's gear.
But it's still above 2 to 1 most of the way up.
And the Wiz can have Candles.
 :plotting
« Last Edit: April 20, 2012, 05:11:43 PM by awaken_D_M_golem »
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Offline Cyclone Joker

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Splat fighter vs. Core Wizard isn't fair in the slightest. The Fighter should beat the wizard like a drunkard on a red-headed stepchild.

Human Zhentarim Hit-and-Run Fighter
(click to show/hide)

WBL:
(click to show/hide)
Dead wizard. Seriously, splats+garbage>>>>>Core+God

Offline awaken_D_M_golem

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 :)

Splat Casting >> Core Casting ... of course.

Making the Fighter to be the Caster = Interesting.
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Offline Cyclone Joker

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:)

Splat Casting >> Core Casting ... of course.

Making the Fighter to be the Caster = Interesting.
Seemed the easiest way to give the fighter the edge, given the rules. with access to splats, the fighzard(I need a better portmanteau than that) has access to the Zodar, so Shapechange means wish means basically every spell you would probably need(I'm looking at Pact of Return mostly), and can let you set up a simularum farm immediately, with either a Mirror Mephit or Efreet looping. The biggest problem with this is initiative, but a Hat of Disguise added onto the Cowl would make it not obvious that you were a zodar, so if the wizard tried to damage you to death, you'd have a turn or two

Actually... If I could somehow gain a level(Deck of many things abuse or some such, though it would need a couple days prep), I could actually make a fighter with epic spells...  :plotting

Offline Halinn

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In a battle of Wish looping, core has enough tricks to compete. The challenge was, as I recall the original thread, also to have a fighter beating a wizard while remaining a fighter. In a caster vs. caster battle, splatbook caster has some advantage.

Offline Cyclone Joker

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In a battle of Wish looping, core has enough tricks to compete. The challenge was, as I recall the original thread, also to have a fighter beating a wizard while remaining a fighter. In a caster vs. caster battle, splatbook caster has some advantage.
I don't see that in the rules, though I did notice that I can't use Zhentarim or Hit-and-Run. Meh, doesn't matter.

If I had more buff-time, there wouldn't even be close to a contest.

By the way, how did he Extend Time Stop? I was under the impression that it could only be done on things without a variable time.

Offline Halinn

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It wasn't in the rules, but it was implied in the challenge, and how Lycanthromancer's opponent in the duel went about building his character.
For that matter, there's nothing explicit in the rules about the fighter not taking leadership, undead leadership, dragon cohort and such and show up with a bunch of level 17 splatbook wizards. The challenge was never about whether or not casters got better with more books.

Offline Cyclone Joker

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It wasn't in the rules, but it was implied in the challenge, and how Lycanthromancer's opponent in the duel went about building his character.
For that matter, there's nothing explicit in the rules about the fighter not taking leadership, undead leadership, dragon cohort and such and show up with a bunch of level 17 splatbook wizards. The challenge was never about whether or not casters got better with more books.
That would be using a wizard, not a monoclassed fighter. I used a monoclassed fighter all the way to twenty.

And it's hardly my fault Lycan's opponent wasn't able to see the most obvious advantage of splats. I used a non-caster, and, by use of splats, I made it better, and able to crush Lycan's wizard. That seemed to be the point of the character. I mean, if Lycan wanted no casting, he would have said "No casting, knock yourself out with a warrior-type." He didn't. He was very clear on fighter. I used fighter, made a fighter than can crush any fighter that he runs into, as well as the wizard. I don't see what's wrong here.

Offline snakeman830

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By the way, how did he Extend Time Stop? I was under the impression that it could only be done on things without a variable time.
It's been a debated point over whether or not Time Stop can be Extended (and Persisted), Empowered (and Maximized), or both.  Extend never states anything about requiring a fixed duration.  Regardless, one or both can definitely be used.

That said, WotC has stated that it can't be Extended because it's effectively an instantaneous duration (yeah, this was FAQ, why do you ask?).
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Offline Sir Giacomo

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Well, I’m back…
I had already discovered this thread in the handbook/handbook discussion section a while ago, but did not have enough time to comment on it to the necessary extent. Granted, doing it now is a bit of a thread necromancy, but maybe I can add some more perspectives to this duel.
Note to mods: I have seen in the reply function that usually after 120 days of not posting in a thread, a new thread should be considered. However, this is the handbook discussion section, and I hesitate to start a second discussion thread on this issue. In case this is a problem, this post (and any answers to it) could be moved to form a new discussion thread in the handbook section). Thanks.
Now on, to my remarks:
Basically, the main points Endarire brought up with this wizard vs fighter duel – and supported by the majority of posters here - are that such a duel can show two things:
  • How much more powerful a wizard is than a fighter,
  • And that this already happens with just the core rules, illustrating how broken the core rules are.

I disagree that the duel is proof for this.

Those who know my earlier posts of course may not be much surprised. ;) However, maybe the reasons why I see such a duel not upholding any of the above two assertions are – at least in part – new.
I’ll go through Lycanthromancer’s duel description step by step and will point out areas where I think the rules were interpreted wrongly, plus general remarks/other observations (e.g. on tactical oddities that I perceive).
This fresh perspective on the duel is also needed imo since this duel, ever since it first appeared on the WotC boards, is often used as the standard benchmark for the two assertions above and is quoted so often with little or even without any questioning in the typical fighter vs wizard debates (like in this thread….).

Pre-duel-preparation
(click to show/hide)

The buff round – wizard actions
(click to show/hide)

The buff round – fighter actions
(click to show/hide)

Round one/take 2 – wizard actions
(click to show/hide)

Round one take 2 – fighter actions
(click to show/hide)

Round two take 2 – wizard actions
(click to show/hide)

Roundup of the duel from a rules perspective
(click to show/hide)

Some more observations from a tactics perspective
(click to show/hide)

So, taking everything together, I have no clue why such a bad performance on both sides of the duel (fighter on the tactical side and wizard on the rules side) is paraded time and again as evidence of wizard superiority in the core rules.
But maybe there are some explanations and/or different rules interpretations that I’d like to hear, or something that I overlooked. In the thread above, so far, some of my concerns have already been raised, but most were not.

- Giacomo