I absolutely love the idea of monster classes, but these classes seem so powerful (especially casting ones, like Ethergaunts). It may be because I have no sense of balance, but can someone disprove my point? Has anyone played one of them?
I just noticed. The alphabetical order of the index got the W after the X.Congratulations, you just found out W isn't a letter in my native language. Fix'd.
Me again. I'm having a lot of trouble with teh table for the Nimblewright. Any chance you can edit it in?Will do.
Just let me know when you want posts reattributed.
Should be back to reposting classes later tonight. Been a bad week.
Hello, I mostly had one question, while I imagine the Key class ability score changing to charisma for movanic deva (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=600.new#new) was mostly referring to Spellcaster, does it apply to any other classes? Like for example wisdom for monk, would use charisma for ac bonuses or cunning insight would use charisma instead of intelligence?
anything else i can do?
What has magic done?: At 1st and 2nd level the antropormhopic animal may select two of the following bonus. Unless otherwise noticed no ability from this list may be picked more than once.
Abilities
All lycanthropes gain +2 to Wisdom. In addition, when in animal form, a lycanthrope’s physical ability scores improve according to its kind, as set out in the table below. These adjustments are equal to the animal’s normal ability scores -10 or -11. A lycanthrope in hybrid form modifies its physical ability scores by the same amount.
So is it just me, or do the werecreatures seem to be a lot weaker than any of the others? I mean, they replace your physical abilities completely and none of them have particularly amazing stat boosts. Especially since you don't get strength increases for growing in size, but you do get strength *penalties* for taking a smaller size (see weretiger). Spending extra transformations to grow larger only increases your natural weapon damage and makes you easier to hit, in addition to being a pain to use (you try fitting a colossal spider in a sewer :P).Here are my reasonings:
Compared to base 3.5's werecreatures, with unlimited uses and additive stats, I'm not sure I'd take any of these templates over something like death knight or paragon.Now this is a more relevant point. Following Nanshork's
That seems like a good balance between making your base stats useful and making the alternate form useful. Do those apply on top of the improved hybrid form attributes from higher HD? Also, want me to go through the animal base forms and figure out the stat bonuses? I noticed they're not added yet so I could save you the time if you like.Compared to base 3.5's werecreatures, with unlimited uses and additive stats, I'm not sure I'd take any of these templates over something like death knight or paragon.Now this is a more relevant point. Following Nanshork'sendless bickeringinterested sugestions, I added the following ability to all weres:
Ability:All lycanthropes gain +2 to Wisdom. In addition, when in animal form, a lycanthrope’s physical ability scores improve according to its kind, as set out in the table below. These adjustments are equal to the animal’s normal ability scores -10. A lycanthrope in hybrid form modifies its physical ability scores by the same amount.
Also this happens to screw over people who would dump their base str scores in a suposed bruiser character, but gently caress them.
I'm going to wait until this is officially sorted out before I add it into my class.Alternate form isn't only about stat bonus. Is also about extra movement forms, nat armor, and the ocasional extra Ex ability. Also gently caress standardization, otherwise I would've just made a single generic monster class and kept adding random chooseable abilities.
1) Retrokinesis brings up a good point that I have no idea how to address without standardizing stat bonuses from hybrid form completely.
2) oslecamo, are you sure you want to add an extra +2 to wisdom for all the lycanthropes? You know what balance level you're looking for better than I do, I just don't want you to add it because of myYes I'm sure. It kinda makes sense, and it's not like divine casters will want to lose a level just for +2 Wis and an alternate form. What's the worst that can happen? People picking it up as monk? :pendless bickeringinterested suggestions. :p
a lycanthrope’s physical ability scores improve according to its kind, as set out in the table below. These adjustments are equal to the animal’s normal ability scores -10. A lycanthrope in hybrid form modifies its physical ability scores by the same amount.
The mechanics for the werehydra are really confusing :)What's to be confused about? You gain 1 extra head per WH level plus another for each non WH level, half that in Werehydra form, and you grow up more heads as you take damage.
True, but the soldier and the arcane one are soooooooooo booooooooooooring.
Prime32's aproach (also used for the Naga, Troll and Kython among others I should point out) only works if the "greater" versions have the same abilities of the "lesser" ones.Technically they don't. The councilors don't have Smite Evil, and ascendant councilors actually lose one or two of the undying councilor's SLAs (and replace Cleansing with Purification). But those are pretty minor, especially at high levels, so I didn't see the harm.
Acid Rain: At 6th level the Skybleeder can make its tentacles weep a slimy red acid. This acid does 1d4 points of acid damage per 3 HD per round to anything and anyone the Skybleeder hovers or flies over. A Reflex save with DC 10+1/2 HD+ Con mod halves this damage. The acid becomes inert right after it deals damage, so a target is only affected for as long as the skybleeder remains overhead. The Skybleeder can stop using this ability or resume it as an immediate action. It can also still use Acid Drizzle as normal.
Such is the corrosive nature of this rain that it ignores an amount of acid resistance equal to the Skybleeder's HD. Even other creatures normally immune to acid simply count as having Acid Resistance 20 against this.
-snip-
Acid Torrent: At 10th level, if the Skybleeder's already using Acid Rain, it can further intensify it as a swift action for 1 round, making it cause 1d4 acid damage per HD instead of just 2d4 acid damage. It can use this ability a number of times per day equal to its Con mod.
Well, not sure if I should post this in the monster's thread or here, so I'll just post it here, but I noticed a rather important typo in the skybleeder (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=3295.0) class. Also, any particular reason they don't get control weather? Too powerful?
I quote:Acid Rain: At 6th level the Skybleeder can make its tentacles weep a slimy red acid. This acid does 1d4 points of acid damage per 3 HD per round to anything and anyone the Skybleeder hovers or flies over. A Reflex save with DC 10+1/2 HD+ Con mod halves this damage. The acid becomes inert right after it deals damage, so a target is only affected for as long as the skybleeder remains overhead. The Skybleeder can stop using this ability or resume it as an immediate action. It can also still use Acid Drizzle as normal.
Such is the corrosive nature of this rain that it ignores an amount of acid resistance equal to the Skybleeder's HD. Even other creatures normally immune to acid simply count as having Acid Resistance 20 against this.
-snip-
Acid Torrent: At 10th level, if the Skybleeder's already using Acid Rain, it can further intensify it as a swift action for 1 round, making it cause 1d4 acid damage per HD instead of just 2d4 acid damage. It can use this ability a number of times per day equal to its Con mod.
Can someone go into more detail about the "If it multiclasses for a/an ___ class it can count ___ levels as levels of that class...."? Examples would be nice....
Thanks! I saw the examples on the pages, but I wasn't exactly sure if I understood it correctly. Now, off to make my tsochar sorcerer!Can someone go into more detail about the "If it multiclasses for a/an ___ class it can count ___ levels as levels of that class...."? Examples would be nice....
Pretty much every monster that has that ability has a short example.
But ok, let's say you've taken two levels of said monster than then change to wizard. You now count as if you already had two wizard levels before.
Normally a wizard has 4 cantrip slots and 2 1st level spell slots at 2nd level, and when he levels up to third level he gains one 2nd level spell slot.
So your monster/wizard character gain a 2nd level spell slot, but no 1st level or cantrip slots. Your CL is 3. If you pick another wizard level, then you get another 2nd level spell slot and a 1st level spell slot, because that's what a wizard gains when they go from level 3 to 4.
The FAQ has detailed tables on how many spell slots you gain when multiclassing at each level trough this way.
Tauric Body(Ex): At level 1 you must choose two creatures, one to form your upper body and another to form your lower body. Your upper body may never be larger than your lower body. You gain the natural weapons of both the upper and lower bodies except for the bite and gore attacks of the lower body and rake attacks of the upper body. You also gain gain the better of each creatures Natural armor bonus. You may multiclass freely between both monster classes.
First problem is that there is a pressure to use monster classes for both halves rather than Human/Monster as I would like and the second is that you may end up with a huge number of natural weapon attacks...
Standard(the ability description for each devil mentioning only the new forms available to them)
Lemure/Nupperibo -> Spined devil -> Bearded devil -> Imp -> Steel devil -> Chain devil -> Erinyes*/Harvester devil/Pain devil -> Amnizu -> Bone devil/Malebranche*/Orthon -> Barbed devil -> Ice devil -> Horned devil -> Assassin devil/Pleasure devil* -> Paeliryon -> Pit fiend
Abishai
Lemure -> White abishai -> Black abishai -> Green abishai -> Blue abishai -> Red abishai -> Chain devil -> (as standard)
*These devils can be promoted to higher forms, but other devils cannot be promoted into them.
I wonder how difficult it would be to make summary compilations for these classes. For example, here are all the classes which stack for spellcasting, and these have their own progressions.Considering there's over 300 of them done so far, it won't be exactly easy.
If they multiclasses for an arcane/divince class they can count its Half-celestial levels as levels of that class for purposes of CL and for the purposes of learning new spells and geting new spell slots. So for example, a Half-celestial 3 who took 1 level of sorceror could choose to have CL 4, get 3 2nd level spell slots, 1 1st level spell slot, 1 2nd level spell known and 1 0th level spell known. it wouldn't get the spell knowns and spell slots of a sorceror 3 however. They would get the familiar ability, but half-celestial levels wouldn't count for it.Example:
To be honest I never tought of it. All the monsters around here that have polymorph/shapechange are suposed to work with the "normal" monsters.
If anything, I would say that "swaping levels" would be the way to go, and keep in check that polymorph doesn't grant Su abilities, and neither it or Shapechange grant Special abilities. As for 1-for-1 HD swap, that would be borked with monsters that get excess HD or your typical pimped bard. This is all on the top of my head tough.
-I would also change the cap to your HD-2 or CL-2, whichever's lower. Scales somewhat better, and doesn't tempt players to just cheese their CL to the sky. Apply that cap also to shapechange. being able to quickly swap between forms and picking templates is already good enough if you ask me.
-"but can also be used to assume the form of a race class"? Eeerr, pretty much every class around here is a race class already :psyduck
Here's my problem with it being CL 1/2.
Level 4-get 2 monster levels (behind 2 levels)
Level 10-get 5 monster levels (behind 5 levels, stuff like cloudkill hurts badly).
Level 15-get 10 monster levels (behind 5 levels, hmm, good luck if anyone uses something like Blasphemy or Holy Word).
Also your shapechange right now is capped at CL/HD, meaning at level 17 you can basically fully swap your levels for any monster class, and then change as a swift action, and that's simply too damn versatile whitout actually sacrificing any raw power(you stay on the same level).
So yes, even whitout bard shenigans it is bad if you can fully swap your levels for monster levels, which means nobody actually plays a monster when they can play a caster and then cherry pick whatever monster class they want to play today whitout any real sacrifice.
Alright, but here's the problem that I see with Shapechange: It's already broken for EXACTLY that reason (but regular monsters instead of monster classes). And druids especially make good use of it; thank you Natural Spell >:). At HD -2, you don't make as much use of it as you could...That's part of the point, nerfing what's possible the most borked spell in the whole of D&D.
but I am seeing the fall-backs of the previous polymorph spells being so limited. Should I simply set in the previous caps of 5 HD, 15 HD, and full HD? I want them to be useful, obviously, and to not fall behind the party in terms of power, but the monster races are upper Tier 2 (practically lower Tier 1) and are rather powerful even at lower levels/HD.Seriously, why do people keep saying that? I can kinda understand when it's a monster that has actual 9th level casting or can copy abilities.
Mayhaps a combo: Alter Self -- 5 HD cap, full CL. Polymorph -- 10 HD cap (at -2), full CL. PAO -- 15 HD cap (at -2), full CL. Shapechange -- HD cap (at -2), full CL. All of them are limited by HD -2, except for Alter Self which is already a pretty weak choice in comparison to the others.You can cast it at 3rd level. As you level up it's extra cheap in either spell slots or wands/scrolls. Of course it shouldn't keep up with spells multiple times its level.
You do also lose your casting ability for a good number of creatures... but I think I do like the sound of yours better, now that I've let it sink in a bit. It grants a bit more power than 1/2 CL and even 3/4 CL by simply putting the cap into place so the spells are useful for combat, utility, and even social situations without going overboard and drunk with power. And no bard shenanigans to increase the HD cap. I'll edit above.
A couple details I was tinkering about the "new" polymorph line:
-Clarify that if you turn into a monster with casting, you use your own spells prepared (or spell slots/known for spontaneous casters). This means turning into monsters doesn't "recharge" your spells neither lets you cherry pick a full new list.
-The new polymorph spells should demand some kind of "focus", one for each "monster build" you want to turn into. For example, drow path of shadows and drow raider would demand two diferent focus. Not too expensive, but expensive enough that you cannot afford to pick from hundreds of forms at any moment. Something along the lines of (monster level) squared x 50 GP.
The option to "upgrade" the focus is an absolute necessity that I am glad you added. I'll see if I can work some wordy magic and give some good definitive explanations involving the critters. I don't suppose you'd want to do a "one focus for outsiders, one focus for aberrations, one focus for dragons, etc."? There are a wide variety of critter types (at least 15, last I checked, and that's not including subtypes) and requiring you to have them up to 20's or more is at least 20,000 GP per. Times 15, that's a good 300,000 GP you're investing and, again, is not including subtypes (outsiders and humanoids have quite a few). Now, they might average out a bit (how many aquatic humanoids are there with 20 HD, after all), but I think the costs could work a little more in the balanced aspect, especially when dealing with outsiders.Sounds nice at first glance, however it isn't that fair when you notice details like there's butloads of outsiders and very few animals.
Also, how did you want to deal with prestiges and/or templates for Shapechange? I imagine templates would be the toughest of them, with prestige simply being tacked on to the base race.No templates that haven't been converted to prcs allowed. Done. :p
Demons, devils and yugoloths are all grouped under the generic infernal tag. Those are the demons done so far:
Balor (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1820.msg18298#msg18298)
Death Drinker (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1822.msg18301#msg18301)
Jovoc (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=7293.msg111678#msg111678)
Lilitu (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1104.msg7664#msg7664)
Marilith (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1829.msg18316#msg18316)
Succubus (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1104.msg7662#msg7662)
Yes, there's more devils done, but what can I say, they've been requested more, as simple as that.The option to "upgrade" the focus is an absolute necessity that I am glad you added. I'll see if I can work some wordy magic and give some good definitive explanations involving the critters. I don't suppose you'd want to do a "one focus for outsiders, one focus for aberrations, one focus for dragons, etc."? There are a wide variety of critter types (at least 15, last I checked, and that's not including subtypes) and requiring you to have them up to 20's or more is at least 20,000 GP per. Times 15, that's a good 300,000 GP you're investing and, again, is not including subtypes (outsiders and humanoids have quite a few). Now, they might average out a bit (how many aquatic humanoids are there with 20 HD, after all), but I think the costs could work a little more in the balanced aspect, especially when dealing with outsiders.Sounds nice at first glance, however it isn't that fair when you notice details like there's butloads of outsiders and very few animals.
And it just feels unfair that one simple focus allows you to turn into an angel or infernal or giant frog (all outsiders), but you need multiple focus to switch between bear, antropormhic bear and and worgh (animal, monstruous humanoid, magic beast)
Plus, notice I said one focus per monster build. Because some monsters around here are just a lot more versatile than others.Also, how did you want to deal with prestiges and/or templates for Shapechange? I imagine templates would be the toughest of them, with prestige simply being tacked on to the base race.No templates that haven't been converted to prcs allowed. Done. :p
Edit: Not sure if this goes here but is Tongues an unbalancing ability if applied to the Movanic Deva class progression being a Celestrial?
Do they still get bonus spells? the chart shows "0" spells and not "-" spells. This may just be a typo but best to clarify.You get the bonus spells from high mental scores, clarified.
I also understand that the mechanics are there to make sure that cl=hd more than what spells you can cast and that not all monsters (like the Movanic Deva) are meant to be casters. I also toyed with allowing it 1 spell slot/known (for sorcs/favoreds etc) per level missed but that went to far from these guidelines and I like the work so i don't want to homebrew already good homebrew guidelines.Well for one sorcerors do keep learning low level spells as they grow up (learn the last 1st level spell at 7th level, the last 2nd level spell at 11th level, etc) . Sorcerors also get a bunch of feats here and there for burning spell slots for other abilities.
This raises the question that if they do get bonus spells which i understand they do, how does that pan out for sorcs etc that bonus spells/day are useless w/o also having at least one spell known.
The raw suggests that bonus spells are not included and I am not arrogant enough to think it was overlooked but if that is the case maybe it should be added to the FAQ or something?Done.
it gets a bit more confusing if you went Diva 2/cleric 1 and alternated every level till diva was done as apart from 0 you would have every spell level (and bonus spells). At 20 you would have the same abilities as the original diva just more spells.Yes, that's kinda true, but that's also kinda how tome of battle works now. Depending on how you multiclass you can end up with a lot of higher level maneuvers that you would otherwise.
I hope this makes sense and I am not bad mouthing the system =)Well your grammar may be somewhat wonky but you seem to be offering constructive criticism overall.
I wonder how difficult it would be to make summary compilations for these classes. For example, here are all the classes which stack for spellcasting, and these have their own progressions.Considering there's over 300 of them done so far, it won't be exactly easy.
It would be useful tough, and if someone made the initial compilation effort, I could then keep updating new entries myself.
Well, what kinds of information would other people like summarized? If I'm going to compile this stuff, I'd rather only make one pass through the classes.
My thoughts are:
~Spellcasting stacking
~Separate casting or martial progression
~Level 1 & final stat boosts
Any others?
What about general party roles/archetypes? For those that can be categorized anyway...
A couple other sugestions
-Total levels of each class.
-Bab, HD and skill points per level.
My idea is to have easy access to a table of: here's everything with this quality and the variations on it... take a look through.
Well your grammar may be somewhat wonky but you seem to be offering constructive criticism overall.
Now that the boards support sortable tables, that's probably the easiest way to do this. If no one has a problem with it, I can start tackling this.Yes, go ahead if you're willing to do it.
Possible Setup: 2 tables. 1st one has roll information:
Name - Type - Total Levels - BAB - Good Save(s) - HD - Skill Points - Lvl 1 stat boost - Total Stat boost
2nd one has role information:
Name - Party Role - Spellcasting* Type - Stacking Spellcasting* Levels - Separate Spellcasting* Progression - Other
*Spellcasting in this case would actually be: Arcane/Divine/Psionic/Invoker/Martial/Whatever
Osle, if I do something like this, I'll probably put each table in a separate post in your Index thread. Cool?
Now that the boards support sortable tables, that's probably the easiest way to do this. If no one has a problem with it, I can start tackling this.Yes, go ahead if you're willing to do it.
Possible Setup: 2 tables. 1st one has roll information:
Name - Type - Total Levels - BAB - Good Save(s) - HD - Skill Points - Lvl 1 stat boost - Total Stat boost
2nd one has role information:
Name - Party Role - Spellcasting* Type - Stacking Spellcasting* Levels - Separate Spellcasting* Progression - Other
*Spellcasting in this case would actually be: Arcane/Divine/Psionic/Invoker/Martial/Whatever
Osle, if I do something like this, I'll probably put each table in a separate post in your Index thread. Cool?
In adition, if the [Monster Class] multiclasses into a casting class, he may count his [Monster Class] levels for purposes of casterl level and learning new spells and receiving new spell slots. So for example a [Monster Class] 3 wich took 1 level of sorceror could choose to receive 3 2nd level spell slots and one 1st level spell slot, and knowing one 2nd level spell and one 0th level spell, casting them at CL 4. He wouldn't receive the spells known and spell slots of a sorceror 3 however.
Osle, as I'm going through these, some of the links in the index bring you to posts that are lower down than the OP. Do you want me to note those for you as I go along? Or do you just want to leave it? In the tables I'm making, I'm also going to have links to each page.Hmm, I'm not sure. They're suposed to point to the first post, with the monster itself, but yes some seem to have gotten messed up. You point them, I'll fix them.
EDIT: Most of them point to the topic. Some of them point to the first post in the topic. Some of them point to posts further down. Some of them point to "topic={###}.new#new" Does that mean it points to the newest post in that topic?
Is this ability:That ability only works for casting classes, not casting prestige classes, so it doesn't stack with ur-priest or chameleon or other prcs that grant you casting out of nowhere.Quote from: OslecamoIn adition, if the [Monster Class] multiclasses into a casting class, he may count his [Monster Class] levels for purposes of casterl level and learning new spells and receiving new spell slots. So for example a [Monster Class] 3 wich took 1 level of sorceror could choose to receive 3 2nd level spell slots and one 1st level spell slot, and knowing one 2nd level spell and one 0th level spell, casting them at CL 4. He wouldn't receive the spells known and spell slots of a sorceror 3 however.
Intended to interact with seperate casting Prcs?
Specifically, Ur-Priest.
If I'm reading this right you can go [Monsterclass] 5, Ur-Priest1 and get 1 lv3, 1 lv4, 1 lv5, and 0 lv6 spells. Is accessing lv5 and potentially lv6 spells at 6HD a problem?
Hi,Meh, I'll admit it depends on my mood at the moment. For monsters with pretty big flying speeds I make it scaling and the exact method depends on how I'm feeling and other minor factors.
In regards to flight speed is there any set pattern? Dragons move at 10ft/hd which seems logical. The Harpy gains a set speed of 80ft. The griffon starts at 40ft and hits 90ft (if i read it right before 20) with no cap. The air elemental has 5ft/hd meaning at 20 it hits the srd monsters speed of 100ft. Angels flight speed tend to be double land speed but the Movanic Deva is 10ft/hd.
Also do they cap at 20? or Ever? Flight is less broken the higher you go but 200ft a round that scales into epic is pretty good. I'm sure you could improved flyby at high level completely undetected and be so far away you never would be.
Would a set fly speed of HD x2 for normal mobs with wings make more sense with dragons and monsters with the air subtype keeping Xft/lvl? Monsters with a set fly speed could still grow into it over their monster class.
Oslecamo, as you can see, I posted the first little bit of the tables.Spoiler your tables first. :p
What do you think about spoilering the entire index (maybe 3 spoilers: Monsters, Templates, Other Stuff), so that people can easily see the tables below?
Meh, I'll admit it depends on my mood at the moment. For monsters with pretty big flying speeds I make it scaling and the exact method depends on how I'm feeling and other minor factors.
Anyway it's not that big of an issue if you ask me, as most battlefields don't really allow you to use very high movement speeds to begin with unless you're out in the open, so no I won't backtrack every monster with flying out there.
Osle, as I'm going through these, some of the links in the index bring you to posts that are lower down than the OP. Do you want me to note those for you as I go along? Or do you just want to leave it? In the tables I'm making, I'm also going to have links to each page.Hmm, I'm not sure. They're suposed to point to the first post, with the monster itself, but yes some seem to have gotten messed up. You point them, I'll fix them.
EDIT: Most of them point to the topic. Some of them point to the first post in the topic. Some of them point to posts further down. Some of them point to "topic={###}.new#new" Does that mean it points to the newest post in that topic?
Oslecamo, as you can see, I posted the first little bit of the tables.Spoiler your tables first. :p
What do you think about spoilering the entire index (maybe 3 spoilers: Monsters, Templates, Other Stuff), so that people can easily see the tables below?
That ability only works for casting classes, not casting prestige classes, so it doesn't stack with ur-priest or chameleon or other prcs that grant you casting out of nowhere.
Anyone else care to view and comment on the polymorph line of spells used to get access to race classes? LINK (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1215.msg112458#msg112458)
[size=6][b]Index[/b][/size]
This post contains the entire list of Base Monster Classes, Monster Prestige Classes, Templates, and Extra Material.
The following posts contain sortable tables with basic information about each class.
[b]Base Monster Races[/b]
[spoiler]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=273.0]Aasimar[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=274.0]Abeil[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=275.0]Aboleth[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=7344.0]Abrian[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=277.0]Achaierai[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=278.0]Aeon, Pleroma[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=527.0]Air Elemental[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=5158.0]Allip[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=7231.0]Al-mi'raj[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=528.0]Anaxim[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=529.0]Androsphynx[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=530.0]Angel of Decay[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=531.0]Ankheg, Awakened[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=532.0]Anthromorphic Animal[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=534.0]Aranea[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=535.0]Astral Stalker[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=5457.0]Avolakia[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=536.0]Azer[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=7302.0]Badger and Dire Badger, Awakened[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=5423.0]Barghest[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=556.0]Basilisk, Awakened[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=5376.0]Bear, Awakened[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2907.0]Behir[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=557.0]Beholder[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=5191.0]Black Ogrun[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2332.0]Black Rock Triskelion[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=558.0]Blink Dog[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=6343.0]Boar, Awakened[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=559.0]Brain in a jar[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=560.0]BugBear[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=6813.0]Carrionette[/url]
[b][color=blue]Celestials[/color][/b]
[spoiler]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=586.0]Angel (planetar/solar)[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=5410.0]Arcadian Avenger[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=587.0]Astral Deva[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=590.0]Bralani[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=5439.0]Firre Eladrin[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=591.0]Ghaele Eladrin[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=592.0]Hound Archon[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=594.0]Lantern Archon[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=598.0]Leonal[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=600.0]Monavic Deva[/url]
[/spoiler]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=932.0]Centaur[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=933.0]Chaond[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=934.0]Chesire Cat[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=5121.0]Chimera[/url][i](Daedroth's version)[/i]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=5155.0]Chimera[/url] [i](Prime32's version)[/i]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=935.0]Choker[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=328.0]Cloaker[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=936.0]Coatl[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2413.0]Cockatrice[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=937.0]Concordant Killer[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=938.0]Conflagration Ooze[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=941.0]Daelkyr[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=942.0]Deadly Dancer[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=5498.0]Deathjack[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=696.0]Defacer[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=404.0]Derro[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=943.0]Djinni[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=944.0]Displacer Beast[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=945.0]Doppelganger[/url]
[color=orange][b]Draconians[/b][/color]
[spoiler]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=5278.msg79925#msg79925]Draconian, Aurak[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=5278.0]Draconian, Baaz[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=5278.msg76703#msg76703]Draconian, Bozak[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=5278.msg75831#msg75831]Draconian, Kapak[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=5278.msg77849#msg77849]Draconian, Sivak[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=5854.0]Draconian Noble, Frost[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=5854.msg85772#msg85772]Draconian Noble, Vapor[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=5854.msg85756#msg85756]Draconian Noble, Venom[/url]
[/spoiler]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1190.0]Dracotaur[/url]
[b][color=red]Dragons[/color][/b]
[spoiler]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1738.0]Battle Dragon[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=948.0]Black Dragon[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=949.0]Blue Dragon[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=950.0]Brass Dragon[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=951.0]Bronze Dragon[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=952.0]Copper Dragon[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1054.0]Crystal Dragon[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=953.0]Fang Dragon[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=954.0]Gold Dragon[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=955.0]Green Dragon[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=956.0]Hellfire Wyrm[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1055.0]Obsidian Dragon[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1042.0]Orange Dragon[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=5786.0]Naiadragon[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=6660.0]Nuclear Dragon[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1043.0]Purple Dragon[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1044.0]Pyroclastic Dragon[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1045.0]Red Dragon[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1626.0]Shadow Dragon[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1046.0]Silver Dragon[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1047.0]Song Dragon[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1048.0]Styx Dragon[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=4653.0]Tome Dragon[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=3431.0]Topaz Dragon[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1052.0]Wing Dragon[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1053.0]White Dragon[/url]
[/spoiler]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1188.0]Dragonne[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=6069.0]Drake, Air[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=6812.0]Dread Scarecrow[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=947.0]Drider[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2579.0]Drow[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=6391.0]Drowned[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1243.0]Dryad[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1244.05]Duergar[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1275.0]Dvati[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1276.0]Earth Elemental[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=7298.0]Electric Eel, Awakened[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=697.0]Entropic Reaper[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1360.0]Ethergaunt[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=5208.0]Ettercap[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=537.0]Flail Snail, Awakened[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1323.0]Flind Gnoll[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1363.0]Fire Elemental[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=3508.0]Frostwind Virago[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=538.0]Gelatinous Cube, Awakened[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1364.0]Genie, Kahayal[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1149.0]Ghost[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=698.0]Ghoul[/url]
[b][color=brown]Giants[/color][/b]
[spoiler]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=5577.0]Cloud Giant[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=6881.0]Ettin[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1462.0]Fire Giant[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1463.0]Geriviar[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=6289.0]Half-Giant[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=6070.0]Half-Ogre[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1464.0]Hill Giant[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1465.0]Firbolg[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1466.0]Frost Giant[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1467.0]Ogre[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1468.0]Ogre Mage[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1469.0]Stone Giant[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=5940.0]Storm Giant[/url]
[/spoiler]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2797.0]Giant Eagle[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=5462.0]Gibbering Mouther[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=5184.0]Githyanki[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=5292.0]Githzerai[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1399.0]Gloom[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1400.0]Gnoll[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1455.0]Golem, Force[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1500.0]Golem, Iron[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=4706.0]Golem, Shadesteel[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=6218.0]Goliath[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1502.0]Gray Jester[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1513.0]Gray Shiver[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=6147.0]Grell[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1536.0]Griffon[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=5499.0]Grimalkin[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1537.0]Grimlock[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1538.0]Gynosphynx[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1577.0]Hag, Annis[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1578.0]Hag, Green[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1580.0]Hag, Sea[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1612.0]Hagnumemnon[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1613.0]Hecantoncheires[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1676.0]Harpy[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=5456.0]Harssaf[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1712.0]HellWasp Swarm[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2380.0]Hobgoblin[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2686.0]Hollyphant[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1715.0]Hook Horror[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1747.0]Hydra[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1838.0]Illurien[/url]
[color=green][b]Infernals[/b][/color]
[spoiler]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=6155.0]Abishai[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1819.0]Assassin Devil(Dogai)[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1820.0]Balor[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1821.0]Bone Devil(Osyluth)[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1822.0]Death Drinker[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1823.0]Erinyes[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1824.0]Ice Devil(Gelugon)[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2866.0]Harvester Devil (Falxugon)[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1825.0]Hell Hound[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1826.0]Imp[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=7293.0]Jovoc[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1827.0]Kyton(chain devil)[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=6236.0]Lemure[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1104.msg7664#msg7664]Lilitu[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1828.0]Malebranche[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1829.0]Marilith[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1830.0]Mezzoloth[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=539.0]Monstrous Crab, Awakened[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=5307.0]Monstrous Spider, Awakened[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=6224.0]Narzugon[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=6243.0]Nupperibo[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1831.0]Nycaloth[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1832.0]Pit Fiend[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1823.msg18303#msg18303]Pleasure Devil[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1104.0]Succubus[/url]
[/spoiler]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=6183.0]Invisible Stalker[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=4882.0]Jaebrin[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1774.0]Janni[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1139.0]Joystealer[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1860.0]Kaorti[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1861.0]Keeper[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=5442.0]Kraken[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1876.0]Kuo-Toa[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1775.0]Kython[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=5199.0]Lamia[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1808.0]LeShay[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1809.0]Lillend[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2447.0]Lizardfolk[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2447.msg27783#msg27783]Lizardfolk, Blackscale[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2447.msg27784#msg27784]Lizardfolk, Poison Dusk[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2447.msg27782#msg27782]Lizardfolk, Viletooth[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1845.0]Living Spell[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=5188.0]Marrulurk[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=5188.msg74286#msg74286]Marrusault[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=5188.msg74287#msg74287]Marrutact[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1877.0]Maug[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1899.0]Medusa[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1926.0]Mephit[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1949.0]Merfolk[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1950.0]Midgard Dwarf[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1900.0]Mind Flayer[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1925.0]Mindstealer Drone[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2000.0]Minotaur[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=4802.0]Moon Dog[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=699.0]Mummy[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2058.0]MurderJack[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=5389.0]Myconid[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2079.0]Naga[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=6737.0]Neogi[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2080.0]Nerra (mirror-people)[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=6182.0]Nightmare[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=700.0]NightWalker[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2102.0]Nimblewright[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2001.0]Nixie[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2101.0]Nymph[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2154.0]Owlbear[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2155.0]Pegasus[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=5684.0]Phaerimm[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2184.0]Phasm[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2185.0]Phoenix[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=5194.0]Pistol Wraith[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2215.0]Pixie[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2216.0]Pseudodragon[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2217.0]Puppeteer[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2245.0]Rakshasa[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2397.0]Rakshasa, Ak'Chazar[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2271.0]Rakshasa, Naytyan[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2273.0]Rakshasa, Naztharune[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2307.0]Ravid[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2308.0]RedCap[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2398.0]Reth Dekala[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2399.0]Rukanyr[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2400.0]Rust Monster[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2475.0]Sahuagin[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2476.0]Salamander[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1650.0]Satyr[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2478.0]Scorpionfolk[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2477.0]Silthilar [/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=5458.0]Shaedling[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=6585.0]Sarkrith Thane[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2518.0]Sharn[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2855.0]Sharrukh[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=5451.0]Shield Guardian, Awakened[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=5098.0]Shoggoth[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=6886.0]Shtein[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2519.0]Skaven[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=3295.0]Skybleeder[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=6064.0]Slaad, Blue[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2537.0]Slaad, Red[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2538.0]Slaadi (Green, Grey, Black, White)[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2582.0]Son/Daughter of Silence[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2583.0]Spell Weaver[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2556.0]Spriggan[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=4880.0]Summoning Ooze[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2604.0]Tarrasque[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2605.0]Tengu[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=5187.0]Tharn[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2606.0]Thri-Kreen[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2607.0]Tiefling[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2630.0]Treant[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2631.0]Troglodyte[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2632.0]Troll[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2542.0]Troll, Bladerager[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2543.0]Troll, Mountain[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2633.0]Tsochar[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=5043.0]Tyrannosaurus Rex[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=701.0]Ulgurstasta[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=5131.0]Undying Court: Undying Soldier[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=4971.0]Umber Hulk[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=7522.0]Unbodied[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2634.0]Unicorn[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2653.0]Urskan[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2380.msg26782#msg26782]Varag[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=702.0]Vargouille[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=703.0]Vashutant[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=640.0]Verdant Prince[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=5668.0]Vermiurge[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1567.0]Visage[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=5995.0]Vivisector[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=5527.0]Vorr[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=6411.0]Water Elemental[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=704.0]Wight[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2654.0]Wild Hunt[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2678.0]Will-O'-Wisp[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2679.0]Winter Wolf[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=6034.0]Wood Woad[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2834.0]Worg[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2680.0]Wyvern[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2681.0]Xill[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2695.0]Xixecal[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2696.0]Yuan-Ti (Pureblood->Half-Blood->Abomination)[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2697.0]Zelekhut (Inevitable)[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=933.0]Zenythri[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2698.0]Zern[/url]
[/spoiler]
[b]Prestige Classes[/b]
[spoiler]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=5423.msg78065#msg78065]Barghest, Greater[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=6343.msg94872#msg94872]Boar, Dire[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=6182.msg91756#msg91756]Cauchemar (Nightmare PrC)[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=328.msg1478#msg1478]Cloaker Lord[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=538.msg114258#msg114258]Gelatinous Cube Wizard[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=5651.0]Gibbering Orb[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2380.msg26871#msg26871]Goblin Piledriver[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2740.0]Guardian[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2380.msg26781#msg26781]Iron Zealot (Hobgoblin PrC)[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1775.msg18616#msg18616]Kython Impaler[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1775.msg18622#msg18622]Kython Overlord[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1775.msg18619#msg18619]Kython Slaughterking[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1775.msg18620#msg18620]Kython Slaymaster[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1775.msg18621#msg18621]Kython Viscerator[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2447.msg27785#msg27785]Lizard Shaman[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=5188.msg74288#msg74288]Marruspawn Abomination[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1900.msg33973#msg33973]Mind Flayer, Ulitharid[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2079.msg22125#msg22125]Naga, Dark[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2079.msg22126#msg22126]Naga, Guardian[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2079.msg22127#msg22127]Naga, Spirit[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=6813.msg104605#msg104605]Needle Fighter[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2632.msg30493#msg30493]Troll, War[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=538.msg76694#msg76694]Uber-Cube (Gelatinous Cube PrC)[/url]
[url= http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=5131.msg73382#msg73382]Undying Court: Undying Councilor[/url]
[url= http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=5131.msg73383#msg73383]Undying Court: Ascendant Coucilor[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2696.msg31256#msg31256]Yuan-Ti Anathema[/url]
[/spoiler]
[b]Templates[/b]
[spoiler]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=540.0]Skeleton, Awakened[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=705.0]Death Knight[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=706.msg3770#msg3770]Demilich[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=6461.0]Fiendish Creature[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=7334.0]Fungal Creature[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=7008.0]Gods[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2767.0]Half-Celestial[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=3533.0]Half-Dragon[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2768.0]Half-Fiend[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2750.0]Half-Golem[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2769.0]Half-Illithid[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2754.0]Half-Troll[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=706.0]Lich[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2723.0]Monster of Legend[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2757.0]Multi-Headed Creature[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=4204.0]Paragon[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=7452.0]Pseudonatural Creature[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2770.0]Shade[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=7156.0]Shadow Creature[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=5555.0]Spell-Stitched Undead[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2758.0]Spellwarped Creature[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=708.0]Swarm-Shifter[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=6186.0]Tauric Creature[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=709.0]Vampire[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=5054.0]Voidmind Creature[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2724.0]Wendigo[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2725.0]Yuan-Ti Tainted One/Broodguard[/url]
[b][BLANK]-anthropes[/b]
[spoiler]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=4332.0]WereBadger[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=3354.0]WereBear[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=3355.0]WereCheetah[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=3356.0]WereConstrictor[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=3357.0]WereHydra[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=3358.0]WereLeopard[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=3359.0]WereLion[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=3360.0]WereLizard[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=6310.0]Were-Murder of Crows[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=6310.msg94208#msg94208]Were-Pity of Doves[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=3361.0]WereRat[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=3362.0]WereRhino[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=3363.0]WereSpider Hunter[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=3364.0]WereSpider Weaver[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=3365.0]WereTiger[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=3366.0]WereViper[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=3367.0]WereWolf[/url]
[/spoiler]
[/spoiler]
[b]Extra Material[/b]
[spoiler]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=526.0]General Monster Feats[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=327.0]More Monster feats by Prime32[/url]
[/spoiler]
Would you mind if I converted the Phantom template from MMV? It's basically a CR +2 "take this for incorporealness" template with a built-in balancing mechanism.
Put in the missing pictures and also put the monstrous creatures where they belong. Giant spiders and crabs are not infernals.
Do natural armors stack when using monster hybrid?
Untyped bonuses to NA stack. Enhancement, or other typed Bonuses to NA don't.
Untyped bonuses to NA stack. Enhancement, or other typed Bonuses to NA don't.
Natural is a bonus type. Just like deflection and enchantment. It does not stack.
Very well, removed it.
Question about power level and monster classes with full casting. Why would you ever be a standard class when you can get monster powers? Aren't they strictly better?
Am I missing something or is that an issue out of the scope of the project?
Also, anything I can do to help?
Willing to do Vampire Lord next if there's no more feedback on Curst
Question about power level and monster classes with full casting. Why would you ever be a standard class when you can get monster powers? Aren't they strictly better?I do strive to make sure that all spellcasting monsters have some limitation in relation to the original.
Am I missing something or is that an issue out of the scope of the project?
Also, anything I can do to help?Besides what FireInTheSky said, you can also sugest feats, search for balance/rules problems, clean up stuff grammar-wise and PM it to me or just comment around.
Willing to do Vampire Lord next if there's no more feedback on CurstWARNING: Vampire Lord, like the original vampire, will need extensive customization to meet my criteria. If you want to tackle it, I'll ask you to look at the Vampire (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=709.0) from here.
Also, anything I can do to help?Besides what FireInTheSky said, you can also sugest feats, search for balance/rules problems, clean up stuff grammar-wise and PM it to me or just comment around.
Make the host's levels replace those of the target, not add.Excellent point, and that's actually how the symbiotes of the Daelkyr monster class work right now.
What to do with ability scores though...Hmm, what's the problem there? Either don't change them, or straight up penalties.
I'm actually more of a KHAOS fan, and have actually been tinkering with a KHAOS set of classes myself for quite some time now, something along the line of:
>I have been resisting the urge to be That Guy and request a Space Marine class for some time now
One day...
Hmm, I thought it was praise be to Gygax around these parts.
Yeah, that movie single handedly made me understand why most books->movies don't stick to the book. I spent the entire movie in various states of WTF? "and now we shall teach the natives the wierding way, which has never been mentioned. This seems to have something to do with shouting, and high tech dog collars. My enemy is a obese man with a jet pack... Also I have a love interest that is mentioned in all of three scenes. This makes sense!"Actually, the weirding way is just superhuman martial arts, I'm not sure what the heck it has to do with shouting.
Question! What happens if you take two monster classes (e.g. Awakened Monstrous Spider/Nuclear Dragon) using Monstetr Blooded/Monster Hybrid to the point your size category would increase beyond colossal?
Ok, I will admit it, I have never read Dune. I only watched the terible movie(which I suspect was the cliffs notes version). So when I post it, feel free to suggest more Dune refrences.That Segmentation ability is... really confusing. Try something more like this:
Also, I have the class sketched out... and am typing it up. The Segment ability is how I am managing the fact a 80ft worm moves really differently then a storm giant. Though as I am making it up as I go, I would really like someone to look at the ability as is.(click to show/hide)
Total height and weight are on a list down here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/movementPositionAndDistance.htm). It seems to imply that the tallest/longest things in D&D are unlikely to be any bigger than 128 feet, looking at the pattern.It's space/reach which are changing.
... odd question on ability combinations: Gelatinous Cube/Hellwasp Swarm: would they deal acid damage to anything caught inside their area?
Your character's face, reach and height all increase by 10 feet, its natural armor increases by an extra 1, its natural weapons increase one die size.
I'm pretty sure it was their excrement...
Dune dragged so much. It probably didn't help that I found an omnibus edition of it and... two books that followed on. I despaired of ever finishing the thing after Dune itself. Thick book, tiny font, big pages. XD
Total height and weight are on a list down here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/movementPositionAndDistance.htm). It seems to imply that the tallest/longest things in D&D are unlikely to be any bigger than 128 feet, looking at the pattern. Growing from Medium, then to Large could be as little as an inch, but when you have things like dragons (that then move up to Gargantuan and Colossal with age), their total size is doubling at some point.Changed face to space and height is doubled now. Updated the Xixecal (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2695.msg31250#msg31250) with it as well. Should get pretty big by 36th level now.
... odd question on ability combinations: Gelatinous Cube/Hellwasp Swarm: would they deal acid damage to anything caught inside their area?Yes, but your opponents would get reflex saves to get out of the way due to Engulf.
Ancient Heart: The tarrasque's regeneration can't be bypassed by anything, and any effect that would kill it outright instead simply deals it nonlethal damage equal to it's total HP +10, and it no longer automatically fails saves on a natural 1.
Total height and weight are on a list down here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/movementPositionAndDistance.htm). It seems to imply that the tallest/longest things in D&D are unlikely to be any bigger than 128 feet, looking at the pattern. Growing from Medium, then to Large could be as little as an inch, but when you have things like dragons (that then move up to Gargantuan and Colossal with age), their total size is doubling at some point.Changed face to space and height is doubled now. Updated the Xixecal (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2695.msg31250#msg31250) with it as well. Should get pretty big by 36th level now.
It's pitch black, the Xixecal is blocking out the sun.
Ah, so simply moving over them wouldn't do it?-No.
Hmm... could a huge or larger Hellwasp Swarm split into more swarms (ie, could a colossal swarm split into four huge swarms, nine large swarms, or thirty-six medium swarms), and how would you work out the dimensions of 'long' swarms for this (I can see a few ways for colossal--two 15x30 feet, three 10x30 feet, and six 5x30 feet)?
Yes.QuoteAncient Heart: The tarrasque's regeneration can't be bypassed by anything, and any effect that would kill it outright instead simply deals it nonlethal damage equal to it's total HP +10, and it no longer automatically fails saves on a natural 1.
And does that overrule the 'critical immunity = no regeneration' clause?
Ok, that is actualy a lot better idea. That I think I can marry to the rest of then class without overly confusing people. It losses some simulation qualities, but what the hell, it seems to work.-Anti-air options.
Ok, at this point, what do people want from a purple worm? I have tremor sense, scent, blind sense into sight, a poison sting, a bite that can improved grapple and swallow whole, swim speed+burrow speed, and the new segmentation ability. I am open to suggestions, as right now this will be kinda bland. It has +8 con and +6 str over 12 levels as a lot of them are that empty.
-Purple Rain, Puuurrrpppllleeee Raaiinnn.
-Anti-air options.
-It's slow and big. Anti-kiting abilities are needed.
-Purple Rain, Puuurrrpppllleeee Raaiinnn.
The main point of this project has been, for years now, to allow players to play monsters in a fun relatively balanced way.hmm... I guess. Still in a less optamized game it is crazy, though that is the general rule with these classes.
I'm definitely not gonna disagree with that. I think the main point of these Classes now is, popularity. Secondary point is probably the original point to this project, to create more challenging encounters for players.
However I can challenge players with regular monsters just as well if not better (in case of doubt, advance HD and multiclass into non-associated class levels).
Technically-speaking, there is a little-known snippet in the PHB that states that all player characters know Common, which saves a lot of hassle.
Are any of the classes so far plants (as in, literally)? I'm not sure. Bad with names, real or made up. :S
It cool with you if I compile a list of which classes fit into specific types and subtypes?Have you seen FireInTheSky's sortable tables?
I'm thinking this would make it a little easier for people who are looking for a certain type of creatue, without havin to know the actual names. And unlike half-golem materials, it's unlikely to give me a headache on the third entry. I'll get started on that one again someday, I swear. :smirk
It cool with you if I compile a list of which classes fit into specific types and subtypes?Have you seen FireInTheSky's sortable tables?
I'm thinking this would make it a little easier for people who are looking for a certain type of creatue, without havin to know the actual names. And unlike half-golem materials, it's unlikely to give me a headache on the third entry. I'll get started on that one again someday, I swear. :smirk
Yeah, I'll get around to finishing those at some point...
I'd like to try my hand at one of these. . . Any suggestions for where to start? Is it easier to do low or high CR creatures do you think?
I've got a few ideas of stuff. . .
Looking through the tables, there are so few ways of getting smaller. About as small as you can get whilst retaining fine manipulation appears to be tiny. But through mixing and matching, it's not so hard to get to Colossal with that ability.
Which is a pity, because I have a sudden desire to play a ninja that can sit in the palm of your hand. Hmm...
One of the big reasons I want these classes spelled out is because I GM an Epic 6 "E6" game where the PCs max out at level 6. After level 6, every 5000 xp you can earn a new feat, so there's still "advancement" but you never get to "wuxia" superman levels like you do in a "normal" game of D&D.No, but you're free to start a thread for it.
http://dungeons.wikia.com/wiki/E6_%283.5e_Sourcebook%29
So anyhoo, I plan on making some of these "only available at X HD" abilities something you can get from E6 feats.
Is there a discussion of E6 monster classes anywhere?
Is there a discussion thread highlighting each of the monster types (outsider, undead, etc) and marking which abilities in it should be available at what level? Immunities, not needing to eat or sleep, no critical hits or flanking, etc?FireInTheSky produced an expanded index that covers specific details of each monster, altough it isn't updated with the latest monsters. You can find it right in the index thread.
I'm guessing we're not concerned, here, with fiddly bits like the full explicitly spelled out "race" description including: Description, Personality, Physical description, Relations, Alignment, Lands, Religion, Language, Names, Adventurers, Ability mods at 1st level, Size, Speed, Vision, Weapon familiarity, Languages, and Favored class. That's fine. Most of that is campaign-specific anyway, and this is just a straight rules and abilities homebrew.
Assuming it's already been discussed ad nauseum, where can I find a link to the nausious discussion of the "no ability penalties" thing I see in the core FAQ? I'm sure my concerns have already been voiced and I'd like to read about it on my own time rather than waste yours or the mods time asking them again.Ironically enough, I've had nasious discussions about pretty much every aspect of this project over the years, but "no ability penalties" wasn't one of them.
Thanks!
Is there a discussion thread highlighting each of the monster types (outsider, undead, etc) and marking which abilities in it should be available at what level? Immunities, not needing to eat or sleep, no critical hits or flanking, etc?FireInTheSky produced an expanded index that covers specific details of each monster, altough it isn't updated with the latest monsters.
I'm guessing we're not concerned, here, with fiddly bits like the full explicitly spelled out "race" description including: Description, Personality, Physical description, Relations, Alignment, Lands, Religion, Language, Names, Adventurers, Ability mods at 1st level, Size, Speed, Vision, Weapon familiarity, Languages, and Favored class. That's fine. Most of that is campaign-specific anyway, and this is just a straight rules and abilities homebrew.
Purely for my own education on how all this fits together, I created a unified size chart taking into account traits such as slight build, powerful build, and what I call "clumsy" (Oslecamo's "Arrogant" trait to offset benefits of Tiny size)
I've thought about the LA 0 races and wondered: Hey... With the Monster Blooded and Monster Hybrid feats, we can make all sorts of insane monster hybrids, how about making insane LA 0 race hybrids? Say, Halfling/Orc. Or even an Elf/Orc/Gnome.
So I figured, perhaps it would be a good idea to make a 1 level long template that would be called, say, The Crossbreed.
It would have Monster Blooded and Monster Hybrid for requirement and allow you to take that monster class to gain the racial stuff of the chosen LA 0 base race on top of your starting race. It'd count as a member of both races and maybe get a disguise bonus to pass as a member of either race.
So I figured, perhaps it would be a good idea to make a 1 level long template that would be called, say, The Crossbreed.
It would have Monster Blooded and Monster Hybrid for requirement and allow you to take that monster class to gain the racial stuff of the chosen LA 0 base race on top of your starting race. It'd count as a member of both races and maybe get a disguise bonus to pass as a member of either race.
d8 hp, 4+int skill points, Bab medium, low saves, perhaps with your choice of one good save.
The template would be available to be taken multiple times (fulfilling the requirements each time)
...
Thoughts?
Thinking about taking a crack at filling out the entire set of Eladrin with the Tulani (in current concept: dream based gish) but it is complex for two reasonsWhatever you prefer. Most people here choose to post when they have a monster fully developed, but it's not uncommon for someone to first post an half-done draft and then fill it up over the following weeks.
A: It's CR 18 meaning a lot of levels to fill
B: It's actually GOT enough SLAs to justify being called a 'spellcaster' which all have to be scaled in.
In light of this, is it ok to have an in-progress post or would you prefer I work elsewhere and load the whole thing in?
If anything, make the Bab progression explicitly poor and reduce the skill points to 2+Int mod.Alright. I thought it was taxing enough as is but why not.
Did you put it in the Index? I do not see it.
Don't good creatures get sanctified spells by default? :???From BoED:Spellcasters prepare sanctified spells just as they do regular spells, and casters who do not prepare spells (including sorcerers and bards) cannot make use of them except from a scroll.
Ink? They're dragons, not squids. Added a clause that underwater the fog SLAs produce a dark miasma instead.
2-4 creatures need removing from the waiting list and 1-2 of those creatures need adding to the index. Oh and there's two new requests for the waiting list.Updated the list.
I need a suggestion for a Grappler that "Summons" creatures using it's own body to create the "Summons", I have an idea, but it's crazy. Though if someone mentions it, I'll just go with it immediately. Also, I may do something weird to the Bite Attack.Closest thing I can remember to that is the Scouring Construct from MM V.
2-4 creatures need removing from the waiting list and 1-2 of those creatures need adding to the index. Oh and there's two new requests for the waiting list.Updated the list.
I need a suggestion for a Grappler that "Summons" creatures using it's own body to create the "Summons", I have an idea, but it's crazy. Though if someone mentions it, I'll just go with it immediately. Also, I may do something weird to the Bite Attack.Closest thing I can remember to that is the Scouring Construct from MM V.
If it's a creature that already exists, why don't you just tell us its name? :P
Also, forgot the Evolved Undead template, added it now.
2-4 creatures need removing from the waiting list and 1-2 of those creatures need adding to the index. Oh and there's two new requests for the waiting list.Oh dear, and I've had the changes in mind for a while. I'll go do that.
Gazzien, if you're reading this, Ice Golem needs finishing up.
I need a suggestion for a Grappler that "Summons" creatures using it's own body to create the "Summons", I have an idea, but it's crazy. Though if someone mentions it, I'll just go with it immediately. Also, I may do something weird to the Bite Attack.
Undead immunities are mostly useful in combat. Skills, on the other hand, are mostly useful out of combat. Without spells (or similarly broad abilities), the main way for an undead character to be useful outside of combat is with skills.
Instead of compensating for the immunities in an unrelated area where undead are already somewhat weak, I suggest that you reduce the immunities to a level you are more comfortable with. For example, some of the immunities might be replaced with a bonus to saves (or for critical hits, replaced with some level of fortification). If you do this, you should give players a way to get the full immunities: as class capstones, through feats, or even automatically with hit die.
Undead immunities are mostly useful in combat. Skills, on the other hand, are mostly useful out of combat. Without spells (or similarly broad abilities), the main way for an undead character to be useful outside of combat is with skills.
Instead of compensating for the immunities in an unrelated area where undead are already somewhat weak, I suggest that you reduce the immunities to a level you are more comfortable with. For example, some of the immunities might be replaced with a bonus to saves (or for critical hits, replaced with some level of fortification). If you do this, you should give players a way to get the full immunities: as class capstones, through feats, or even automatically with hit die.
It probably shouldn't take a full 20 levels to get full undead immunities. Making the racial traits HD based, yes; suggesting it take the whole class to get? Not so good.
More like the way incorporeality works for ghosts than a Tarrasque's regeneration, I guess.
Undead immunities are mostly useful in combat. Skills, on the other hand, are mostly useful out of combat. Without spells (or similarly broad abilities), the main way for an undead character to be useful outside of combat is with skills.
Instead of compensating for the immunities in an unrelated area where undead are already somewhat weak, I suggest that you reduce the immunities to a level you are more comfortable with. For example, some of the immunities might be replaced with a bonus to saves (or for critical hits, replaced with some level of fortification). If you do this, you should give players a way to get the full immunities: as class capstones, through feats, or even automatically with hit die.
It probably shouldn't take a full 20 levels to get full undead immunities. Making the racial traits HD based, yes; suggesting it take the whole class to get? Not so good.
More like the way incorporeality works for ghosts than a Tarrasque's regeneration, I guess.
To my knowledge, no non-template undead class has 20 levels; of those if FireInTheSky's tables, only five of them have more than 10 levels. By "capstone", I meant "something toward the end of a class to reward taking several levels in the same class" (instead of multiclassing), not "something you get at 20th level".
No, that just messes with light levels; that does not negate the existence of cover or allow you to identify everything about your surroundings. If definitely isn't infinite spot or listen bonuses; if I have good darkvision that equals the same thing.Last time I checked, darkvision doesn't have a "revealing itself and all features" clause. Lifesight is basically the equivalent of mindsight.
And how many good homebrew classes completely lack access to all sensory skills?Wizard and cleric don't have spot or listen. Anybody ever complained those ones need them as class skills? Many wizard and cleric clones that are extremely popular online don't get those either.
As a more concrete example, take a Bard 6 or Dread Necromancer 6 (Both Tier 3 classes) against a Bloodhulk 6. Which is stronger and more capable? In combat, it's going to depend a fair bit on precise optimization, but out of combat, both the Bard and DN are far more useful than the Bloodhulk, between access to spells and skills. The Bloodhulk, well, he's really good at lifting heavy objects, so if you're building a fortress he's very useful. But that's rather specific. Giving him a few skills means he can do a couple of things out of combat, or at least not be at perpetual risk of ambush.Bloodhulk class gains a racial bonus to spot and listen checks in case you missed it.
Bluntly, the biggest drawback for being undead is not having spells. And Undead only have +1/2 BAB, so they aren't brilliant at hitting lots in combat either (excluding magic items, etc.). A good benchmark of melee combat effectiveness is the Warblade or Crusader, so unless the undead creature is running roughly even with them, they are probably in need of a boost.
No, that just messes with light levels; that does not negate the existence of cover or allow you to identify everything about your surroundings. If definitely isn't infinite spot or listen bonuses; if I have good darkvision that equals the same thing.Last time I checked, darkvision doesn't have a "revealing itself and all features" clause. Lifesight is basically the equivalent of mindsight.
And how many good homebrew classes completely lack access to all sensory skills?Wizard and cleric don't have spot or listen. Anybody ever complained those ones need them as class skills? Many wizard and cleric clones that are extremely popular online don't get those either.
And then bloodhulk also shruggs off poison, mind-affecting, critical hits. Warblade and crusader... Die to a lucky crit from some random 1st level orc with a waraxe. They grab diseases when they enter the cursed swamp. And then they can't go in the underwater caverns because they need, to, you know, breath.
You do realize that lifesight is usually considered one of the best special senses out there, in par with mindsight and the like, right?No, that just messes with light levels; that does not negate the existence of cover or allow you to identify everything about your surroundings. If definitely isn't infinite spot or listen bonuses; if I have good darkvision that equals the same thing.Last time I checked, darkvision doesn't have a "revealing itself and all features" clause. Lifesight is basically the equivalent of mindsight.
You're reading stuff into it that isn't there. Darkvision does have that clause: if it's pitch black, normally I cannot see anything. If I have darkvision, then I can see all the features of something and its surroundings. All that line is saying is that the illumination isn't just a bright light alerting you to the presence of life, it's something you can see by.
Well, the problem here is that "good" is quite the subjective word. Sirpercival's warcrafter isn't a spellcaster, doesn't have sensory skills, and is extremely popular.QuoteHow many good homebrew classes, I said. Things that are, essentially, clones of the most broken classes in the game? Not really.And how many good homebrew classes completely lack access to all sensory skills?Wizard and cleric don't have spot or listen. Anybody ever complained those ones need them as class skills? Many wizard and cleric clones that are extremely popular online don't get those either.
Which is still more than -11, and also more than enough to punch the orc back and win the battle. :pQuoteAnd then bloodhulk also shruggs off poison, mind-affecting, critical hits. Warblade and crusader... Die to a lucky crit from some random 1st level orc with a waraxe. They grab diseases when they enter the cursed swamp. And then they can't go in the underwater caverns because they need, to, you know, breath.
Bloodhulk dies due to a lucky hit from a 1st level orc with a waraxe, too. If it's not at full health? Well, a first level Bloodhulk has either 22 or 24 HP. So, I roll a 12 for my damage roll. Plus 5 from strength and a two handed weapon. Plus six because it's slashing and it got lucky on the bonus damage. 23 damage already. If you're on full HP, at best you have exactly one HP left.
You do realize that lifesight is usually considered one of the best special senses out there, in par with mindsight and the like, right?No, that just messes with light levels; that does not negate the existence of cover or allow you to identify everything about your surroundings. If definitely isn't infinite spot or listen bonuses; if I have good darkvision that equals the same thing.Last time I checked, darkvision doesn't have a "revealing itself and all features" clause. Lifesight is basically the equivalent of mindsight.
You're reading stuff into it that isn't there. Darkvision does have that clause: if it's pitch black, normally I cannot see anything. If I have darkvision, then I can see all the features of something and its surroundings. All that line is saying is that the illumination isn't just a bright light alerting you to the presence of life, it's something you can see by.
By your interpretation, lifesight is completely redundant with darkvision. And undeads get darkvision by default. Meaning you're claiming that a lot of guides out there advise you to get an useless feat.
Well, the problem here is that "good" is quite the subjective word. Sirpercival's warcrafter isn't a spellcaster, doesn't have sensory skills, and is extremely popular.QuoteHow many good homebrew classes, I said. Things that are, essentially, clones of the most broken classes in the game? Not really.And how many good homebrew classes completely lack access to all sensory skills?Wizard and cleric don't have spot or listen. Anybody ever complained those ones need them as class skills? Many wizard and cleric clones that are extremely popular online don't get those either.
[/quote]Which is still more than -11, and also more than enough to punch the orc back and win the battle. :pQuoteAnd then bloodhulk also shruggs off poison, mind-affecting, critical hits. Warblade and crusader... Die to a lucky crit from some random 1st level orc with a waraxe. They grab diseases when they enter the cursed swamp. And then they can't go in the underwater caverns because they need, to, you know, breath.
Bloodhulk dies due to a lucky hit from a 1st level orc with a waraxe, too. If it's not at full health? Well, a first level Bloodhulk has either 22 or 24 HP. So, I roll a 12 for my damage roll. Plus 5 from strength and a two handed weapon. Plus six because it's slashing and it got lucky on the bonus damage. 23 damage already. If you're on full HP, at best you have exactly one HP left.
Mind you, I meant more around levels 3-4, where the waraxe orc can still one-shot living PCs, while an undead is shrugging it off like a boss.
Not redundant, since Darkvision has a hard cap distance limit, and doesn't centre itself on living creatures. I do not, however, agree with guides that say it's an outright amazing sense. Unless the DM's going to rule that no amount of hiding skills or abilities are useful. But that's the DM making it an infinite spot check.You're still disagreeing with what's considered a pretty general ruling.
And it also completely fails for any other use of spot than 'oh, hey, living thing'.Which is what Spot is used 90% of the time.
That's one. Now, how many do have those as class skills?I'll make you a counter argument-How many bad classes have Spot and Listen as class skills? I'm not sure we can agree on how many exactly, but I believe we can agree that the answer is higher than zero.
So I guess it's not all that different from a barbarian with some immunities stacked on top.
So, I was thinking of making the Dokufu a prc of the Monstrous Spider. How does it sound?
Not so much for templates. Things where the undead is the WHOLE class? Would help.
So, I was thinking of making the Dokufu a prc of the Monstrous Spider. How does it sound?
I'm not sure, but I don't think I like that...It's a fairly different creature, in my opinion.
Like a mountain dwelling shapechanging hermit with a spider motif. And then the other way around at the same time...
I feel like it could also be a decent pseudo-sorcerer class with a penchant for illusions and mind-effecting stuff. Despite that the original doesn't actually have spellcasting, it technically could be loosely inferred that it is still has like a CL of 20 just from the wording of it's Alternate Form :tongue
And it has an advancement even beyond the HD True Dragons seem to be able to reach so the class could maybe be taken in a way in regards to spiders like how True Dragons are towards normal Dragons...
But that's just my opinion. I do love how incredibly interesting Dokufu come across as :D
Maybe some inspiration could come from looking at the Jorogumo that I think they're based off of?
Although that would make them seem better as a PrC for Monstrous Spiders.....huh.
So you could be an undead Troll by taking 1 level of Troll and 1 level of Undead to be a troll undead with undead immunities.
I doubt the immunities being a defining point of being undead is a just argument since many abilities that define certain creatures in many monster classes are not available at first level. Them being part of the undead type doesn't justify it either otherwise the abominations would be getting all their stuff on their very first level instead of getting a little of it all progressively.
Eerr, there's really nothing in OA dokufu that suggests it is a spellcaster. Its only magic ability is the alternate form, and "as CL 20 shapechange" was just common wording for high CR monsters Alternate Form in 3.0.
And as you just pointed out, its inspiration seems indeed to be the Jorogumo, that is basically a monstrous spider that can turn into an human. It likes to fool people yes, but it does so by transforming into a regular human, not by casting illusions.
Besides if you just want a spellcaster with a spider motiff, there's other ways already available you can accomplish that. Polymorph, werespider, druid with vermin wildshape, you name it. Heck, the Aranea (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=534.0) already is a spellcaster spider with an humanoid alternate form that throws webs in a single package!
The problem is, this seems like cheating. Yes, these abilities are available elsewhere--but should I really be relying on cash expenditure when I could be getting the same things just by a side effect of levels?Hey, you pointed this out. If now you have a problem with your own argument then just get the level for the immunities instead. If you really want a side effect of levels, it could be that for each level in an undead class, you get an immunity of your choice from the trait list of immunities instead of all of them at once. Even easier to implement with a simple rule similar to how size increases/decreases are handled: a clause about undead/construct traits in the "Introduction and FAQ-Read this first!" thread.
Os has altered undead so all have something to offer outside of conflict; the discussion is more or less ended.So he buffed something that was already too good because the original problem was that the penalties he chose to begin with weren't appropriate and the skills he penalized have an utility zone of their own.
It's my opinion that undead traits are just too strong that they demand a penalty, thus weak Bab and only one good save. But those are hardly drawbacks when undeads are immune to most things that demand saves and more often than not have very dangerous natural weapons and/or touch attacks. Thus, no class skills. Also, they're undeads, their brains are long rotten if they have them at all.And I heartily agree that they are hardly drawbacks for the gains. He removed class skills in addition for that reason and now he's buffing them a bit because this drawback was apparently not fitting because of their out of combat utility.
Yes, it would be easy to implement. Yes, you could do it.Quote from: OslecamoIt's my opinion that undead traits are just too strong that they demand a penalty, thus weak Bab and only one good save. But those are hardly drawbacks when undeads are immune to most things that demand saves and more often than not have very dangerous natural weapons and/or touch attacks. Thus, no class skills. Also, they're undeads, their brains are long rotten if they have them at all.And I heartily agree that they are hardly drawbacks for the gains. He removed class skills in addition for that reason and now he's buffing them a bit because this drawback was apparently not fitting because of their out of combat utility.
Which is why I'm saying that adjusting the balance of the immunities with something else is a better fix, and actually pretty easy to implement.
I could do it.
But it would only make things worst. Now you have levels that gives only passive defenses. No natural weapons, no movement modes, that's it. Which is plain boring.Are you sure?
Besides, the whole point of this classes was that things would come in convenient packages. Not modular "create your own monster" bits where you can just pick the abilities you're interested and throw the rest out of the window. That's for what templates are for, and that's why I put the multiclassing restriction for base monster classes in there in the first place.Aye, but the package is way too convenient. Technically its always a "create your own monster" since you can just get the first few levels you want and jump on something else, like classes and templates. If having the choice on the immunities is a problem, then the order they are acquired could always be the same, giving a convenient package each level instead of one big thing at the first level with penalties that you only really suffer if you stay for many levels into the class.
The abilities I now added don't really rise the undeads power level that much, since they provide utility whitout allowing to unlock cheesy skill stuff.And it seems this is now fixed, so, are we done arguing?
Actually, that's more of the entropic reaper being in serious need of a complete overhaul. 5th level for just DR/SR is seriously lagging behind.QuoteBut it would only make things worst. Now you have levels that gives only passive defenses. No natural weapons, no movement modes, that's it. Which is plain boring.Are you sure?
Many monsters have a level where they only get DR/SR or some defensive ability. Getting a bunch of immunities doesn't sound boring. Looking at a random undead: Entropic Reaper. Yep. One level has only defensive abilities in Reapers warding. It is already like this. Some levels grant utility, some grant offensive abilities, others defensive abilities. Sometimes a mix of them.
And there is nothing wrong with that.
QuoteBesides, the whole point of this classes was that things would come in convenient packages. Not modular "create your own monster" bits where you can just pick the abilities you're interested and throw the rest out of the window. That's for what templates are for, and that's why I put the multiclassing restriction for base monster classes in there in the first place.Aye, but the package is way too convenient. Technically its always a "create your own monster" since you can just get the first few levels you want and jump on something else, like classes and templates. If having the choice on the immunities is a problem, then the order they are acquired could always be the same, giving a convenient package each level instead of one big thing at the first level with penalties that you only really suffer if you stay for many levels into the class.
Also, as you say, this is different with templates. The convenient package you want for the base monster classes is given to them too. One level in an undead/construct template and you're set. No real multiclassing restriction. No real counterbalance either. The suggested measures are especially meaningful to them.Template undeads demand 10+ Con score to take. Base undead classes don't, so you have the advantage of being able to dump your Con to the bottom and putting those stats somewhere else.
Exactly. That's precisely what I'm saying.QuoteBut it would only make things worst. Now you have levels that gives only passive defenses. No natural weapons, no movement modes, that's it. Which is plain boring.Nonundead classes may be getting levels in which they tecnically only get defensive abilities, but they're usually also gaining Bab and a nice amount of skill points.
You still didn't explain why you want people to have to burn 3 levels to replicate a CR 1 monster. Or 9 levels to replicate a CR 7 monster. Or 2+X levels to replicate a CR X monster.I already did.
Template undeads demand 10+ Con score to take. Base undead classes don't, so you have the advantage of being able to dump your Con to the bottom and putting those stats somewhere else.Whats more penalizing: 2 feats to get a single level in an undead/construct monster class to multiclass with your other monster class because you want to dip a level for a big package of immunities or just keep your Con low at 10 (a modifier of 0 still sounds like a dump stat to me) and take a level dip for the same big package of immunities?
Thus penalties to make up for all that extra stuff. Making a monster take the same amount of levels than their CR is the core foundation of this project.QuoteExactly. That's precisely what I'm saying.QuoteBut it would only make things worst. Now you have levels that gives only passive defenses. No natural weapons, no movement modes, that's it. Which is plain boring.Nonundead classes may be getting levels in which they tecnically only get defensive abilities, but they're usually also gaining Bab and a nice amount of skill points.QuoteYou still didn't explain why you want people to have to burn 3 levels to replicate a CR 1 monster. Or 9 levels to replicate a CR 7 monster. Or 2+X levels to replicate a CR X monster.I already did.
They get too much stuff on their first level.
Just because you consider 10 a dump stat, doesn't mean that you can't tank it even further down. Starting with a base undead class easily allows you to squeeze an extra +2 or +4 to your other ability scores over a template undead class.QuoteTemplate undeads demand 10+ Con score to take. Base undead classes don't, so you have the advantage of being able to dump your Con to the bottom and putting those stats somewhere else.Whats more penalizing: 2 feats to get a single level in an undead/construct monster class to multiclass with your other monster class because you want to dip a level for a big package of immunities or just keep your Con low at 10 (a modifier of 0 still sounds like a dump stat to me) and take a level dip for the same big package of immunities?
It simply doesn't change the point I've made in the text you quoted: "One level in an undead/construct template and you're set. No real multiclassing restriction. No real counterbalance either."
Thus penalties to make up for all that extra stuff. Making a monster take the same amount of levels than their CR is the core foundation of this project.That'd be fine if the penalties made up for it. They do not.
Just because you consider 10 a dump stat, doesn't mean that you can't tank it even further down. Starting with a base undead class easily allows you to squeeze an extra +2 or +4 to your other ability scores over a template undead class.Doesn't change my point: "One level in an undead/construct template and you're set. No real multiclassing restriction. No real counterbalance either."
The Corruptor Initiate ability of the Succubus class seems to contradict itself. The first several lines seem to suggest that your effective spellcasting class level is Succubus levels + caster levels: If I was a Succubus 3/Sorcerer 1, as in the example, I'd cast as a Sorcerer 4 (knowing 6/3/1 spells and able to cast 6/6/3 spells.)). But the second to last line ("She wouldn't get the spell knowns and spell slots of a sorceror 3 however") seems to say that you would just have a caster level of a Sorcerer 4. Which way is it supposed to be?
My apologies if this isn't the right place to post this.
So I get the spells known of a Sorcerer X (Where X is the sum of my succubus and sorcerer levels), minus the spells known and spells per day of a sorcerer Y (Where Y is my succubus level)?
This "pseudocasting" is one of the least intuitive and hardest to explain parts of this project. Suggestion: Instead of each class giving a brief and confusing description, what if the classes just said "this class grants pseudocasting for <whatever classes>", with a link to a complete definition of pseudocasting, with full examples and rules text that is as unambiguous as possible? That way, classes could be made slightly shorter, there would be fewer opportunities for copypasta errors in boilerplate text, and the rules would be clearer. If anyone else thinks this is worthwhile, I can draft a proposal for the pseudocasting definition after I get some sleep.Considering that FireInTheSky's index will help me find the relevant monsters, on my part I would be willing to edit a clearer ruling in if you wrote it down.
I'd like to propose the Wight for a bit of an overhaul. It might just be me being crazy, but it seems a tad lackluster to me. I don't think it has stood up to the tests of time.Noted. Want to finish the Reaver overhaul before looking at that.
A question. In the FAQ section concerning extra HD it says:
"
I see a lot of abilities based on HD. Do they count extra HD such as the ones from Bardic Inspiration?
No. Count only your class HD for any ability that is based on HD, not from any other source.
"
Does this refer to only the class HD from the actual monster class that gave you the ability?
Or does it refer to the total sum of HD that the character has gained through gaining levels in classes?
Because not ever being able to understand what Wotc exactly means with "character level" was one of the reasons I started this whole thing. :p
And yes, all permanent HD count towards your abilities that say they work out of HD.
Sum of class levels. ECL is adding LA and RHD onto that.Almost. :)
Character Level: "Character level" is a character's total number of levels. It is used to determine when feats and ability score boosts are gained.Although the definition can be confusing, its purpose is clear: its what determines when feats and ability score boosts are gained.
The maneuverability doesn't increase naturaly, but players can take the Savage Species feat that increases it by two steps(stackable).
Depends what kind of creepy you're aiming for.
For creepy in general I'd say the Pseudonatural Creature.
Depends what kind of creepy you're aiming for.
For creepy in general I'd say the Pseudonatural Creature.
Speaking of which, I noticed that the Blackscale Lizardfolk is recorded on Fireinthesky's table as being two levels long, but it is actually three. I think this would be the place to mention that? I'll go with that.Noted. I'm gonna update that thing at some point, I swear! :p
If you want, you can take a peak at some of my homebrew and steal/draw inspiration
I looked it over, but it certainly was not. In fact, I even remember it being invigorated by electricity a la flesh golem (which I know the half-flesh golem does, too, but it wasn't it), which leaves little doubt in my mind that that is, indeed, what the class was. I distinctly remember a very Frankenstein picture for it, too, complete with doctor and table and lightning. The fact that I can't find it here is the really confusing part. Perhaps it was on another forum and didn't make the port over? Or was deleted somehow?
Maybe it came from a different project, but I find that pretty unlikely. I can't even remember seeing another monster class project, furthermore using one in my games.
I just noticed there isn't a template for making a monster class. Yanno, something with most of the bbcode done out already
Cause who actually knows how to make tables -_-'
Level | Base Attack Bonus | Fort Save | Ref Save | Will Save | Special[/c][/c][/c][/c][/c][/c] |
1st | +0 | +2 | +0 | +2 | -[/c][/c][/c][/c][/c][/c] |
2nd | +1 | +3 | +0 | +3 | -[/c][/c][/c][/c][/c][/c] |
3rd | +2 | +3 | +1 | +3 | -[/c][/c][/c][/c][/c][/c] |
4th | +3 | +4 | +1 | +4 | -[/c][/c][/c][/c][/c][/c] |
5th | +3 | +4 | +1 | +4 | -[/c][/c][/c][/c][/c][/c] |
6th | +4 | +5 | +2 | +5 | -[/c][/c][/c][/c][/c][/c] |
7th | +5 | +5 | +2 | +5 | -[/c][/c][/c][/c][/c][/c] |
8th | +6/+1 | +6 | +2 | +6 | -[/c][/c][/c][/c][/c][/c] |
9th | +6/+1 | +6 | +3 | +6 | -[/c][/c][/c][/c][/c][/c] |
10th | +7/+2 | +7 | +3 | +7 | -[/c][/c][/c][/c][/c][/c] |
11th | +8/+3 | +7 | +3 | +7 | -[/c][/c][/c][/c][/c][/c] |
12th | +9/+4 | +8 | +4 | +8 | -[/c][/c][/c][/c][/c][/c] |
13th | +9/+4 | +8 | +4 | +8 | -[/c][/c][/c][/c][/c][/c] |
14th | +10/+5 | +9 | +4 | +9 | -[/c][/c][/c][/c][/c][/c] |
15th | +11/+6/+1 | +9 | +5 | +9 | -[/c][/c][/c][/c][/c][/c] |
16th | +12/+7/+2 | +10 | +5 | +10 | -[/c][/c][/c][/c][/c][/c] |
17th | +12/+7/+2 | +10 | +5 | +10 | -[/c][/c][/c][/c][/c][/c] |
18th | +13/+8/+3 | +11 | +6 | +11 | -[/c][/c][/c][/c][/c][/c] |
19th | +14/+9/+4 | +11 | +6 | +11 | -[/c][/c][/c][/c][/c][/c] |
20th | +15/+10/+5 | +12 | +6 | +12 | -[/r][/c][/c][/c][/c][/c][/c] |
Wish I could remember what's up with the columns, though.The [/c] is because you're supposed to close each cell. Is that what you meant?
Dark Touch: A lich gains a touch attack that deals damage equal to 1d8+ the lich's ability bonus of the ability score its spellcasting is based on. A lich with multiple spellcasting classes uses the class with the highest ability bonus.
"Goblin, Flesh."
So maybe my Firefox search broke and I am blind but the Ogre and Ogre Mage are not in the index.
Which seems weird considering osle made both
So maybe my Firefox search broke and I am blind but the Ogre and Ogre Mage are not in the index.
Which seems weird considering osle made both
You can find them underneath the "Giant" tab in the main index.
I think it would be interesting to see a section in this forum briefly talking about strong class synergies after a monster class is finished. Especially in Gestalt.
I had a question about the Pit Fiend's Overlord ability. I'm reading it as you can maintain a number of HD of devils equal to 2x your HD (thus 40 at level 20), which seems kinda low considering you can call up 128 bearded devils. Am I reading this wrong?
Hmmm, so would you consider a epic progression for the Hoard feat or a Epic Hoard feat?
Has anyone else noticed that the main index of this subforum has become....bigger? As if I'm a blind person in need of larger text to read properly? Or is it just me?
Ahh, good, thanks Nanshork. This subforum is literally the only thing I use this forum for. As long as it isn't just me!
Question: When not otherwise specified, is natural weapon damage given for a medium-sized creature or for a creature of the size the monster is assumed to have achieved? For instance, if you gain a trample attack at 10th level but grew one size at 8th level. Is it assumed the monster grew, even if the player took the option to not grow and instead took the +2 to a physical ability score? There are some monsters with Growth at several levels, making it somewhat important to our keep track of natural weapon dice.Natural weapon damage given in a monster class assume that the monster grew whenever possible by the class.
--edit--
Perhaps this wasn't the best place to post this question, since it seems to have been overlooked...
Trying to parse together a sortable table, but the headings aren't working well. Bugger all.
Trying to parse together a sortable table, but the headings aren't working well. Bugger all.
If you quote this post, you'll see the way I had mine set up. It just got to be too much work for me to keep up with these things. I'm not sure if you're trying to do something similar, but if you want, I can PM you the Excel file from wherever I left off
Trying to parse together a sortable table, but the headings aren't working well. Bugger all.
If you quote this post, you'll see the way I had mine set up. It just got to be too much work for me to keep up with these things. I'm not sure if you're trying to do something similar, but if you want, I can PM you the Excel file from wherever I left off
Send me the file; I'll take it on!
Did you notice that Animated Object has both a race and a class? Also, the animated object would have to be Awakened because PCs require an intelligence score.Let me list some problems. From size modifiers for being Tiny, they have -8 Strength, which, with the -2 racial, menas they have 0 strength on average, and get +4 Dex, with another +2 from racial. And have 50 ft. move if they are bipedal from the race, regardless of size, at the "cost" of being able to be tripped. As opposed to 40 ft. move when they can't be tripped, which is still faster than the typical party member. Wheels give 80 ft. move at the low cost of not getting to use Climb or Jump, rendered irrelevant by being able to grab Flight at 1st level and have proper flight at 3 HD. 40 ft. speed Clumsy flight, due to being half land speed, meaning that they are still moving faster than the rest of the party while flying. Or swimming or climbing, if they pick one of the other options.
I'm also not sure how Os will feel about a generic Awakened prestige class where there are at least ten Awakened (xxx) classes already created.
It's worth noting that none of Os's classes use the creature advancement stat modifiers to size.Well, part of my problem is that there's two such tables. If we use the one that is referred to by the Enlarge Person spell, which is very different from the one I was looking at, which just causes massive issues, then they become incapable of hitting things very quickly, breaking them in the other direction. For example, Large creatures get -1 to attack and AC, while Huge ones get -2. Gargantuan creatures get -4. The setup is very much built around getting modifiers to offset the penalties directly, but that's not part of the table for characters. Enlarge Person doesn't increase your attack bonus at all, that +2 Strength is only offsetting the penalty for being large.
For good reason. I think Os'd have an issue if just by using his classes and no particular effort I ended up with 72 STR, 54 CON, and a bonus +14 Natural Armour BEFORE the common tendency to base NA off those stats came up. On the flip side, it makes small characters playable. Yes, this would be a serious issue with one character I have--the classes hand out ability improvements already, and you can choose to not grow or avoid taking growth options, so they can't be removed easily without creating weird size splits.
Remember--that table is a guide for improving monsters as given in the rulebooks. If you want to make a monster go from large to huge? Here's a rough guide on appropriate stat improvements.
It's worth noting that none of Os's classes use the creature advancement stat modifiers to size.Well, part of my problem is that there's two such tables. If we use the one that is referred to by the Enlarge Person spell, which is very different from the one I was looking at, which just causes massive issues, then they become incapable of hitting things very quickly, breaking them in the other direction. For example, Large creatures get -1 to attack and AC, while Huge ones get -2. Gargantuan creatures get -4. The setup is very much built around getting modifiers to offset the penalties directly, but that's not part of the table for characters. Enlarge Person doesn't increase your attack bonus at all, that +2 Strength is only offsetting the penalty for being large.
For good reason. I think Os'd have an issue if just by using his classes and no particular effort I ended up with 72 STR, 54 CON, and a bonus +14 Natural Armour BEFORE the common tendency to base NA off those stats came up. On the flip side, it makes small characters playable. Yes, this would be a serious issue with one character I have--the classes hand out ability improvements already, and you can choose to not grow or avoid taking growth options, so they can't be removed easily without creating weird size splits.
Remember--that table is a guide for improving monsters as given in the rulebooks. If you want to make a monster go from large to huge? Here's a rough guide on appropriate stat improvements.
The Growth function increasing Strength as an alternative to increasing size means that staying smaller is always better unless you are actively carrying things, grappling, or have abilities requiring size to function. Because without the modifiers for increasing size as a monster, you will only ever lose AC and attack roll bonus for getting bigger. Constructs have a bit of mercy in that they get extra HP based on size as a fact of the creature type, so my issue with 59 HP for no real investment at 3rd level still holds true. Although you are also losing 3 AC and, like, +6 attack bonus and +3 damage over staying Tiny. Being Tiny has very large benefits and not many disadvantages if we ignore the monster table.
And if you think having nearly twice the health of a raging Barbarian for +6 Attack is a fair trade, this is only for Constructs. Non-Constructs will get literally nothing in terms of durability improvements from going up in size, according to the character size change table. Non-constructs, in fact, get exactly three upsides: Damage die increases, reach and Grapple modifier. The Monster table, meanwhile, is getting 14 NA for Medium to Colossal. And losing 4 Dex. And 8 Attack bonus and AC. So -10 Touch AC for +4 regular AC. It gets a lot of Strength, yes. Medium to Colossal is +32 Strength. Diminutive to Medium is +10 Strength with a -4 to Attack and AC from size, with another -3 to Touch AC from size. And no Natural Armor to show for it, so that +4 regular AC from Medium to Colossal becomes -3 to regular AC, for +9 to attack and +21 damage.
So even with the monster size increase table, it's still better to stay small. At most, you would want to go to Medium or Large for the sake of damage dice, and even that's iffy because of just how big size modifiers are and the balance point of the game.
Well, part of my problem is that there's two such tables. If we use the one that is referred to by the Enlarge Person spell, which is very different from the one I was looking at, which just causes massive issues, then they become incapable of hitting things very quickly, breaking them in the other direction. For example, Large creatures get -1 to attack and AC, while Huge ones get -2. Gargantuan creatures get -4. The setup is very much built around getting modifiers to offset the penalties directly, but that's not part of the table for characters. Enlarge Person doesn't increase your attack bonus at all, that +2 Strength is only offsetting the penalty for being large.
The Growth function increasing Strength as an alternative to increasing size means that staying smaller is always better unless you are actively carrying things, grappling, or have abilities requiring size to function. Because without the modifiers for increasing size as a monster, you will only ever lose AC and attack roll bonus for getting bigger. Constructs have a bit of mercy in that they get extra HP based on size as a fact of the creature type, so my issue with 59 HP for no real investment at 3rd level still holds true. Although you are also losing 3 AC and, like, +6 attack bonus and +3 damage over staying Tiny. Being Tiny has very large benefits and not many disadvantages if we ignore the monster table.
And if you think having nearly twice the health of a raging Barbarian for +6 Attack is a fair trade, this is only for Constructs. Non-Constructs will get literally nothing in terms of durability improvements from going up in size, according to the character size change table. Non-constructs, in fact, get exactly three upsides: Damage die increases, reach and Grapple modifier. The Monster table, meanwhile, is getting 14 NA for Medium to Colossal. And losing 4 Dex. And 8 Attack bonus and AC. So -10 Touch AC for +4 regular AC. It gets a lot of Strength, yes. Medium to Colossal is +32 Strength. Diminutive to Medium is +10 Strength with a -4 to Attack and AC from size, with another -3 to Touch AC from size. And no Natural Armor to show for it, so that +4 regular AC from Medium to Colossal becomes -3 to regular AC, for +9 to attack and +21 damage.
So even with the monster size increase table, it's still better to stay small. At most, you would want to go to Medium or Large for the sake of damage dice, and even that's iffy because of just how big size modifiers are and the balance point of the game.
So, I notice that there's not an actual Animated Object monster class, just an Awakened one. And Awakened, itself, lacks a monster class, even though several of the Awaken spells give permanent HD. Some of them just make creatures from scratch. It'd be a great choice for a general monster PRC that isn't an outright template. As for what to do with Awakened, I can come up with the following right away:
3 level class
+4 Int each level
Nonability/below 2 Int prerequisite
d10 HD
3/4 BAB
Strong Fort/Will saves
Legacy Champion style progressing what's already there
4+Int skill ranks
Basically, you get a good chassis and 12 Int with one or two levels of progressing parts of what you already have. Parts being important, selecting a limited number of features to add levels of progression to rather than a whole class.
As for Animated Object, these are the ideas I can whip up right away:
3/4 BAB, as they are bruisers and therefore deserve decent hitting-things ability
Options at 1st level for material, restricted to basic ones like wood and steel
Hardness of material being split between hardness and regular DR
Getting to select properties off a list throughout leveling, like PF
Growth with option of getting a Swarm instead of size or stat
So, comments on the basic ideas here? I'll wait for comments before I actually do anything, because editing tables is... painful.
Let me list some problems. From size modifiers for being Tiny, they have -8 Strength, which, with the -2 racial, menas they have 0 strength on average, and get +4 Dex, with another +2 from racial.Improved Monster classes don't get any stat changes for size. That is explained on the FAQ. Plus I would like to point out small core races like halflings don't get any stat extra stat changes.
And have 50 ft. move if they are bipedal from the race, regardless of size, at the "cost" of being able to be tripped. As opposed to 40 ft. move when they can't be tripped, which is still faster than the typical party member. Wheels give 80 ft. move at the low cost of not getting to use Climb or Jump, rendered irrelevant by being able to grab Flight at 1st level and have proper flight at 3 HD. 40 ft. speed Clumsy flight, due to being half land speed, meaning that they are still moving faster than the rest of the party while flying. Or swimming or climbing, if they pick one of the other options.Construct Monster classes here don't get any size-based extra HP (check the golems/anaxim and whatnot). However seems like I let that detail slip with the animated object base race, and just fixed it. Thank you for pointing it out.
At 3rd level, they can carry the entire party by having the Box option and taking all the Growth choices they get for being level three. One member can use them as a mount, the other two can ride inside with cover and be able to fight back. Oh, and Construct traits give Large Constructs 30 extra HP, meaning average HP for this creature at ECL 3 is 56 HP. 10 from maxed first HD, 11 for 2d10 average, 30 for Large Construct. Oh, wait, there's another three HP for Objective Object, meaning it's 59 HP at ECL three. With the ability to have two Medium-sized party members inside with cover and able to take advantage of the bloated move speed to have a battle bus that can fly faster than they can walk. Which, due to Strength and size modifiers, is probably dealing upwards of 20 damage per attack itself. Let's see... +8 Str size modifier, +5 Str from the class, -2 from the race, which means +11 Strength. x1.5 for Slam means 16.5 and then 3.5 for average roll, meaning that it actually is dealing 20 damage on average. At ECL 3. While having 59 HP, on average.
So... I do believe that it needs an overhaul.
In regards to a generic Awakened class, it can be useful for someone who wants to use a mindless creature that doesn't have one of these classes, or for people who want to use only a small subsection of the classes and the DM is picking them based on having a rebalanced LA to handle the ECL problems, like a certain thread series by a user with the name of Inevitability over on Giant in the Playground. Or they want to turn their skeletal Orcs into decently intelligent minions, which the Awaken Undead spell doesn't allow by capping at the racial average.Improved Monster classes were created from the start as a replacement for the LA system, not something to be used with the LA system.
Semi-generic classes for certain common changes work out fairly well for this purpose. A one-size-fits-all Awaken PRC wouldn't work out well, it's too general, but one for each commonly-eligible creature type, as in Ooze, Vermin, Construct, Undead, Animal and Plant, would certainly make things less crazy and more open. Slight subdivisions through AFCs allows you to tune it a bit better.I have to admit I like the way you talk.
Well, part of my problem is that there's two such tables. If we use the one that is referred to by the Enlarge Person spell, which is very different from the one I was looking at, which just causes massive issues, then they become incapable of hitting things very quickly, breaking them in the other direction. For example, Large creatures get -1 to attack and AC, while Huge ones get -2. Gargantuan creatures get -4. The setup is very much built around getting modifiers to offset the penalties directly, but that's not part of the table for characters. Enlarge Person doesn't increase your attack bonus at all, that +2 Strength is only offsetting the penalty for being large.
The Growth function increasing Strength as an alternative to increasing size means that staying smaller is always better unless you are actively carrying things, grappling, or have abilities requiring size to function. Because without the modifiers for increasing size as a monster, you will only ever lose AC and attack roll bonus for getting bigger. Constructs have a bit of mercy in that they get extra HP based on size as a fact of the creature type, so my issue with 59 HP for no real investment at 3rd level still holds true. Although you are also losing 3 AC and, like, +6 attack bonus and +3 damage over staying Tiny. Being Tiny has very large benefits and not many disadvantages if we ignore the monster table.
And if you think having nearly twice the health of a raging Barbarian for +6 Attack is a fair trade, this is only for Constructs. Non-Constructs will get literally nothing in terms of durability improvements from going up in size, according to the character size change table. Non-constructs, in fact, get exactly three upsides: Damage die increases, reach and Grapple modifier. The Monster table, meanwhile, is getting 14 NA for Medium to Colossal. And losing 4 Dex. And 8 Attack bonus and AC. So -10 Touch AC for +4 regular AC. It gets a lot of Strength, yes. Medium to Colossal is +32 Strength. Diminutive to Medium is +10 Strength with a -4 to Attack and AC from size, with another -3 to Touch AC from size. And no Natural Armor to show for it, so that +4 regular AC from Medium to Colossal becomes -3 to regular AC, for +9 to attack and +21 damage.
So even with the monster size increase table, it's still better to stay small. At most, you would want to go to Medium or Large for the sake of damage dice, and even that's iffy because of just how big size modifiers are and the balance point of the game.
Basic outline seems fine, but you seem to have a series of misunderstandings about how monster classes work around here.Largely because I'm kinda skimming a lot. I've been feeling rushed lately a lot due to a lot of housework-type things and kinda an overload of forum thread subscriptions. Mostly laundry, which needs done nearly daily due to three people living in this place and towels being gone through at two per day. For some reason, my brother keeps using two dry towels every day. One for normal use, one on the floor.
Improved Monster classes don't get any stat changes for size. That is explained on the FAQ. Plus I would like to point out small core races like halflings don't get any stat extra stat changes.As mentioned, I was confused due to the whole "multiple size change tables" thing.
Construct Monster classes here don't get any size-based extra HP (check the golems/anaxim and whatnot). However seems like I let that detail slip with the animated object base race, and just fixed it. Thank you for pointing it out.
Improved Monster classes were created from the start as a replacement for the LA system, not something to be used with the LA system.As opposed to the largely-arbitrarily-segregated Enhanced Monster Classes, which instead replace LA by having an actual playable race version and a class to go with it. That died due to too-harsh restrictions, didn't it?
Still a prc to "smart up" monsters is something I see as viable (at least as viable as prcs for making them physically stronger and whatnot). What I have trouble seeing is a fair way to apply it to mass produced minions.Eh, mass production is kinda overrated. Though a merge mechanic would be somewhat appropriate for Vermin and Oozes, with Vermin forming Hiveminds and Oozes... Just merging. It's Ooze. Constructs could also form amalgams of parts and spirits.
I have to admit I like the way you talk.An important thing to avoid for Undead is spawn-chaining off of Energy Drain. It's one of the nastiest things that can be done, and is responsible for many a Necromancer getting far too many Undead under their command because the DM was too merciful with the rules.
The growth table to be used with improved monster classes is in the Introduction/FAQ thread (http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=269.msg1315#msg1315).I have been informed of the correct table, already. Again, confusion was due to the fact that there's a table for Monsters and a table for PCs and I keep forgetting that the insane design choice of having there be two tables for it was made. Because it's stupid, and stupid choices tend not to stick in my head. Which makes understanding politics an unholy pain in the ass, because it's made of at least half stupid decisions.
And as already mentioned size increases greatly improve weapon die damage, and several monster classes grant extra bonus for being bigger than your opponent, the titanic creature particularly. Otherwise yes I agree that being bigger is usually a sucker's bet in 3.X edition since you mostly get easier to hit and even easier to hit with spells. But again what's why I do things like the titanic creature.The advantage of choosing the ability score to improve in place of a size boost is certainly nice, as well. Lets you stop at Medium and be nice and safe by bloating Dex or Con. Restricting to physical scores is a Nice Thing for Martials, due to limits to means of having physical scores apply to spellcasting. Meldshapers love the potential for Con bloating, thought, but they're one of the subsystems screwed in DC scaling anyway.
QuoteImproved Monster classes were created from the start as a replacement for the LA system, not something to be used with the LA system.As opposed to the largely-arbitrarily-segregated Enhanced Monster Classes, which instead replace LA by having an actual playable race version and a class to go with it. That died due to too-harsh restrictions, didn't it?
I can see that being the case. But the idea of keeping actual race picks doesn't seem to be that unusual to me.QuoteImproved Monster classes were created from the start as a replacement for the LA system, not something to be used with the LA system.As opposed to the largely-arbitrarily-segregated Enhanced Monster Classes, which instead replace LA by having an actual playable race version and a class to go with it. That died due to too-harsh restrictions, didn't it?
Enhanced Monster Classes arose out of a large disagreement about Oslecamo's project and so said disagree-er went off to make their own project. That died mostly due to a lack of participation in the project because most people didn't have issues with Oslecamo's project.
That's why they're segregated.
Edit: Also, at least Oslecamo uses his monster classes for monsters and not just PCs and thus all of his monsters that use the classes use the rules for the classes. It's not two tables, one for PCs and one for Monsters. It's just how this project is structured.
Thank god for that, exceptions-based mechanics lead to hell for actually keeping track of everything. As for not using monster classes for NPCs/monsters... wut. What's the point of making a class for monsters if you don't use it for actually making monsters of a single sort scale easily?+
There is a Hydra Monster class, with a Cryo/Pyro PrC as well....I literally searched it right before I posted to be sure it wasn't there. I suppose I'll critique it for mechanics. In it's thread, quoting back to here just as a link to point at it, so people not tracking the Hydra thread will see.
http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=1747.0
Some critiques.
QuoteThank god for that, exceptions-based mechanics lead to hell for actually keeping track of everything. As for not using monster classes for NPCs/monsters... wut. What's the point of making a class for monsters if you don't use it for actually making monsters of a single sort scale easily?+
Because players want to play monsters.
QuoteThank god for that, exceptions-based mechanics lead to hell for actually keeping track of everything. As for not using monster classes for NPCs/monsters... wut. What's the point of making a class for monsters if you don't use it for actually making monsters of a single sort scale easily?+
Because players want to play monsters.
...I said that he uses monster classes for his monsters. I'm not really sure why you're asking about not doing it?
QuoteThank god for that, exceptions-based mechanics lead to hell for actually keeping track of everything. As for not using monster classes for NPCs/monsters... wut. What's the point of making a class for monsters if you don't use it for actually making monsters of a single sort scale easily?+
Because players want to play monsters.
...I said that he uses monster classes for his monsters. I'm not really sure why you're asking about not doing it?
Well, he asked what's the point for making monster classes if you don't use it for scaling monster enemies. That would be the reason. Doesn't mean it's not usable for the former or whatever.
No biggie, but still the "Read this First" clause is there in the Intro/FAQ thread for a reason.Basic outline seems fine, but you seem to have a series of misunderstandings about how monster classes work around here.Largely because I'm kinda skimming a lot. I've been feeling rushed lately a lot due to a lot of housework-type things and kinda an overload of forum thread subscriptions. Mostly laundry, which needs done nearly daily due to three people living in this place and towels being gone through at two per day. For some reason, my brother keeps using two dry towels every day. One for normal use, one on the floor.
It's a super specialized build that can't do much else. Clumsy maneuverability is clumsy and with 24 HP average lacking actual DR, not exactly that durable either. And each party member throwing repair spells is one less party member attacking enemies.QuoteConstruct Monster classes here don't get any size-based extra HP (check the golems/anaxim and whatnot). However seems like I let that detail slip with the animated object base race, and just fixed it. Thank you for pointing it out.
And the three-level battle bus setup? 80 ft. move speed and 40 ft. fly, restricted to 5 ft. above ground and uncapping at 4 HD, at 1st level? Who needs mounts or Cure spells with a literal tank in the party? Just snag some good Construct heals and you're good.
The idea, maybe. But the real deal is the extra work. 400+ races worth of work taking in account all the monster classes here.I can see that being the case. But the idea of keeping actual race picks doesn't seem to be that unusual to me.QuoteImproved Monster classes were created from the start as a replacement for the LA system, not something to be used with the LA system.As opposed to the largely-arbitrarily-segregated Enhanced Monster Classes, which instead replace LA by having an actual playable race version and a class to go with it. That died due to too-harsh restrictions, didn't it?
Enhanced Monster Classes arose out of a large disagreement about Oslecamo's project and so said disagree-er went off to make their own project. That died mostly due to a lack of participation in the project because most people didn't have issues with Oslecamo's project.
That's why they're segregated.
Whot? :psyduckQuoteEdit: Also, at least Oslecamo uses his monster classes for monsters and not just PCs and thus all of his monsters that use the classes use the rules for the classes. It's not two tables, one for PCs and one for Monsters. It's just how this project is structured.
Thank god for that, exceptions-based mechanics lead to hell for actually keeping track of everything. As for not using monster classes for NPCs/monsters... wut. What's the point of making a class for monsters if you don't use it for actually making monsters of a single sort scale easily?+
Well that's an idea.QuoteStill a prc to "smart up" monsters is something I see as viable (at least as viable as prcs for making them physically stronger and whatnot). What I have trouble seeing is a fair way to apply it to mass produced minions.Eh, mass production is kinda overrated. Though a merge mechanic would be somewhat appropriate for Vermin and Oozes, with Vermin forming Hiveminds and Oozes... Just merging. It's Ooze. Constructs could also form amalgams of parts and spirits.
That's why the spawn-creating monster classes here have caps on how many you can control around.QuoteI have to admit I like the way you talk.An important thing to avoid for Undead is spawn-chaining off of Energy Drain. It's one of the nastiest things that can be done, and is responsible for many a Necromancer getting far too many Undead under their command because the DM was too merciful with the rules.
The table with stat growths is meant only for advancing monster through HD. It's never been intended for any and every size increase otherwise Enlarge Person would be the ultimate first level buff. Anyway this project is a replacement for usual monster progression so yes it meant replacing a bunch of things.QuoteThe growth table to be used with improved monster classes is in the Introduction/FAQ thread (http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=269.msg1315#msg1315).I have been informed of the correct table, already. Again, confusion was due to the fact that there's a table for Monsters and a table for PCs and I keep forgetting that the insane design choice of having there be two tables for it was made. Because it's stupid, and stupid choices tend not to stick in my head. Which makes understanding politics an unholy pain in the ass, because it's made of at least half stupid decisions.
QuoteAnd as already mentioned size increases greatly improve weapon die damage, and several monster classes grant extra bonus for being bigger than your opponent, the titanic creature particularly. Otherwise yes I agree that being bigger is usually a sucker's bet in 3.X edition since you mostly get easier to hit and even easier to hit with spells. But again what's why I do things like the titanic creature.The advantage of choosing the ability score to improve in place of a size boost is certainly nice, as well. Lets you stop at Medium and be nice and safe by bloating Dex or Con. Restricting to physical scores is a Nice Thing for Martials, due to limits to means of having physical scores apply to spellcasting. Meldshapers love the potential for Con bloating, thought, but they're one of the subsystems screwed in DC scaling anyway.
It's a super specialized build that can't do much else. Clumsy maneuverability is clumsy and with 24 HP average lacking actual DR, not exactly that durable either. And each party member throwing repair spells is one less party member attacking enemies.Flying taxi at level four able to take you up faster than most methods can let you go horizontal is good. Delaying the setup until level five still has it quite potent, and gives access to significant offensive capacity alongside it. Religious Relic for Warforged Domain gives cooldown-based Domain access to repair spells.
The idea, maybe. But the real deal is the extra work. 400+ races worth of work taking in account all the monster classes here."minor extras" means not needing all those Body traits. "nothing valuable to actual play" means actually getting 20 levels in a non-Monster class. It's not actually that complicated, it's just moving the pure racial stuff that forces some weird mechanics into actual races. Like the standard of having the first level of these classes be considerably stronger than normal.
You mentioned you have real life chores and work to do. So have I. Needing to come up with an original race for every monster here would take a lot of time I could invest in other stuff. In particular when there's a lot less flexibility in what I can put in a base race.
And look at that, my project's the one that's still running and offers a lot more options. Because I don't burn myself out trying to come up with minor extras that don't really offer anything valuable to actual play.
Whot? :psyduckIt's a thing I saw in the publicly-accessible basic rules for 4e while looking stuff up for talking about stacking effects onto other abilities. Those rules said D&D was an exceptions-based system. Being an official WotC posting, this is apparently part of how they considered the d20 system to function at the time.
Well that's an idea.Works better for Vermin and Oozes than others, due to more reasonable setup for function. Vermin have Hiveminds, which are basically impossible to work as a template-class due to weird crunch, and Oozes can literally just flow together, merging in various gel and fluid like fashions.
That's why the spawn-creating monster classes here have caps on how many you can control around.Says the guy who made a PRC which requires 666 controllable spawn for the third level...
The table with stat growths is meant only for advancing monster through HD. It's never been intended for any and every size increase otherwise Enlarge Person would be the ultimate first level buff. Anyway this project is a replacement for usual monster progression so yes it meant replacing a bunch of things.So, in other words, the table is for what the size-growths should come after, approximately. Con bonuses and Strength bonuses. Dex penalties are confusing to implement in a class progression, and lack of them does assist in excusing some of the missing value.
Got plenty of people complaining over the years that they didn't want their monster characters to grow, but claiming utility reasons like going inside houses and tight corridors and whatnot. Although something else I did for that was the Deceivingly Innocent Form feat that allows any monster to take a mostly humanoid shape/size.Lots of creatures have inherent shapeshifting for fitting in with humanoids, largely based on plot categorization. The requirements on Deceivingly Innocent Form are kinda... bad, though. Like, typical PCs won't get away with it, and they are rather weird on top of that. Granted, the retention of Literally All the monster abilities is worth it, but having a prerequisite that precludes being outright Good if you do it just to get that feat is nasty. I mean, depending on the morality system you apply to Alignment, eating creatures after killing them in a morally-neutral or Good way(Good being death of horrible people or defending innocents from being horribly tortured/murdered) can easily be Neutral, so there's that, but most DMs would be questioning it.
Says the guy who made a PRC which requires 666 controllable spawn for the third level...
Lots of creatures have inherent shapeshifting for fitting in with humanoids, largely based on plot categorization. The requirements on Deceivingly Innocent Form are kinda... bad, though. Like, typical PCs won't get away with it, and they are rather weird on top of that. Granted, the retention of Literally All the monster abilities is worth it, but having a prerequisite that precludes being outright Good if you do it just to get that feat is nasty. I mean, depending on the morality system you apply to Alignment, eating creatures after killing them in a morally-neutral or Good way(Good being death of horrible people or defending innocents from being horribly tortured/murdered) can easily be Neutral, so there's that, but most DMs would be questioning it.
So, I notice that there's not an actual Animated Object monster class, just an Awakened one. And Awakened, itself, lacks a monster class, even though several of the Awaken spells give permanent HD. Some of them just make creatures from scratch. It'd be a great choice for a general monster PRC that isn't an outright template. As for what to do with Awakened, I can come up with the following right away:
3 level class
+4 Int each level
Nonability/below 2 Int prerequisite
d10 HD
3/4 BAB
Strong Fort/Will saves
Legacy Champion style progressing what's already there
4+Int skill ranks
Basically, you get a good chassis and 12 Int with one or two levels of progressing parts of what you already have. Parts being important, selecting a limited number of features to add levels of progression to rather than a whole class.
I'm not going to answer most of that--since you seem to be insisting that the hundred-plus classes should be stripped down to having a race entry that would need LA to balance out getting any of the abilities in the first place which defeats the point, but...When I say stripped down race, I'm talking the utterly fundamental stuff. Hydras with two heads, Fast Healing 1 and the head-sundering thing, as an example. Would that need an LA? FH 1 is only good as out-of-combat healing, though it does force specific time keeping on the DM.
You don't have to control them for Vampire Lord, just make them.But they are all controllable. Well, not all of them directly, but CR-2 mean that they can double their controllable spawn of a CR every two levels. Because CR rules are borked, and have doubling the number of creatures of a CR be equivalent to +2 CR. Which means that a Vampire can have a single CR 2 Spawn at 4th level, two at 6th, four at 8th, 16 at 10th and so on, capping pre-Epic at 256 CR 2 Spawn, which means being Turned from CR 1 creatures due to the added Vampire level.
I've never seen anyone actually take 20 levels in a single class so even just one level of a monster class isn't ruining any builds.....It's messing up builds that flatly need 20 levels of conventional class progression. Yes, being able to substitute certain classes is available, but sometimes you just flat-out need zero LA. For example, Hydra doesn't give any major build progression, due to having Poor BAB and no abilities that satisfy prerequisites. More seriously, the single lost level of Sorcerer casting on Aranea delays every casting PRC, period. And doesn't make up for any of the Gish ones by having better BAB than Sorcerer or Wizard.
Not to mention that generally anyone using these monster classes would more likely be building off of them with a build that synergizes with the monster. It helps too when alot of the monsters also stack their levels for certain progressions (arcane/divine/psionic casting, martial adept, rogues, barbarian, etc etc).
Look VN, if you want to play a 20 level build that requires conventional Classes, rather than these ones, you can. However, these Classes are fully capable of being made into part of a 20 level build.I know perfectly well, it's that there's a bit of frustration in me about making variants of existing, normal, builds that just swap some of the classes in them for these monster classes.
You don't get to benefit from these Classes as though playing a Gestalt game, unless you're actually playing Gestalt.
If you want the benefits these Classes provide, make it into part of the build. There are many official Classes with interesting abilities which also ruin 20 level builds, I don't see you complaining about how bad Monk is for an Incantatrix build.
These aren't sounding like actual complaints about the monster classes being bad anymore. This is just becoming mere stubbornness to not want to come up with your own builds based around these monsters and instead just complaining that they don't mesh easily into all the pre-made builds others have made that were not created with homebrew material in mind.My issue with it is that only a small minority fit the rather open mechanics niches for properly working in pre-existing character archetypes. 3/4 BAB and partial casting isn't much to ask for, but it's kinda hard to find with actual Martial abilities. Like, Rakshasa? Level-2 Sorc casting, full BAB. Features are about stealth, enchantment and anti-magic, no Martial advantages.
You're not actually critiquing this system now are ya? Just complaining that they don't fit into another system seamlessly.The system in question being PRC requirements, not the general game. And it's not so much not doing it seamlessly as much as it is not doing it much at all. I'd be fine if it was extremely clunky about it, but few classes progress Arcane casting and have 3/4 BAB to fill in some caster levels on gish builds. Tome Dragons have 3/4 Wizard casting and full BAB, as an example of an egregious exception/example of just meeting requirements.
Pre-existing character archetypes were never intended for monsters. You work off what the monster is good at, not the other way around.And stuff like Arcane Trickster is well within what Aranea is good at. But they have even worse entry prospects than normal Sorcerers, because they still have 1/2 BAB and then have reduced casting.
Yeah but what does an Aranea have that a human sorcerer doesn't have?Change Shape, which just lets them pass as human, +3 Cha, a variant of Web with uses-per-day and poison. Yes, this covers being a spider well, but that's what Monstrous Spider is for. Aranea is about the Magic. A considerably better question is "what does an Aranea have that a Monstrous Spider doesn't?" And the answer to that is... Spider Sense, and casting. Oh, and Charisma instead of Strength.
Aranea should be a Spider-gish in a can
QuoteAranea should be a Spider-gish in a can
No, I'm pretty sure an Aranea is suppose to be a magical spider. It's about being a monster. You're still thinking of all of this as suppose to be for PCs but these are all monsters first and player options second. The only thing this project really does is make it a lot less rough for a player to play as something that isn't a regular person. But they're still monsters. And thus still clunky to put into a build intended for regular persons.
No, I'm pretty sure an Aranea is suppose to be a magical spider. It's about being a monster. You're still thinking of all of this as suppose to be for PCs but these are all monsters first and player options second. The only thing this project really does is make it a lot less rough for a player to play as something that isn't a regular person. But they're still monsters. And thus still clunky to put into a build intended for regular persons.Magical Spider means, essentially, spider-gish in a can. By spider-gish, I mean martial capacity by Spider abilities alongside magic. By means of Webs and Poisons, rather than swording things well. Being able to slot Aranea in place of, say, Rogue on Arcane Archer builds ought to be doable. 1/2 Sorcerer casting for getting gishable Spider abilities with 3/4 BAB.
I mean, I'm sure they're still for PC's first, but they were never meant to just randomly fill in PrC or build requirements for extra bonuses at no downside. They're meant to take Racial HD and LA as a guide for how many levels said monster should be worth, then fill them with actual class features and progression rather than, generally, a handful of abilities, some minor stat boosts, stat penalties, and an exorbitant XP pricetag.Given how horrible the first-party full BAB classes are beyond the rare gish-in-a-can that functions, the lack of creatures doing so for BAB requirements is kinda crazy. Like, anything with full BAB and any amount of stacking casting is doing it better than the official stuff.
Like, anything with full BAB and any amount of stacking casting is doing it better than the official stuff.
I mean, I'm sure they're still for PC's first, but they were never meant to just randomly fill in PrC or build requirements for extra bonuses at no downside. They're meant to take Racial HD and LA as a guide for how many levels said monster should be worth, then fill them with actual class features and progression rather than, generally, a handful of abilities, some minor stat boosts, stat penalties, and an exorbitant XP pricetag.Given how horrible the first-party full BAB classes are beyond the rare gish-in-a-can that functions, the lack of creatures doing so for BAB requirements is kinda crazy. Like, anything with full BAB and any amount of stacking casting is doing it better than the official stuff.
Hydras have 1/2 BAB here? Okay, okay, fair concern there. Because Magical Beasts (i.e. Hydras) should be Full Bab.....
2-If it's not an undead or construct, then ignore the basic monster saves, skills, proefeciencies and Bab progression. The monster class will have those based on the extra abilities they have. The more and/or better abilities, the worst saves/skills/Bab/proefeciencies the monster should have.
... then I don't get your issue.The inability to use many of these classes with many previous builds as substitution. In most builds, Fighter and Barbarian are interchangeable for prerequisites. There's a few times when feats are needed, but it's extremely rare for a build to not be able to have some Fighter levels replacable with Barbarian ones. Martial Rogue can swap for Fighter in many of those cases where BAB isn't on a hard schedule, and level-shuffling can often solve that problem.
So... your issue is that you can't simply take a more powerful class and slot it into a pre-existing build without downsides? That's lazy.It's that I can't do it at all for a bunch of them. Due to full BAB being unavailable on a lot of things I'd want it on, and quite a few bruisers using stat bonuses instead of having BAB, which I'm actually fine with mechanically beyond the prerequisites screwing it causes.
...Okay, scrapping the bit where only the first substitution level is needed for the damage increases. Four size increases for damage dice and +9 Con/+6 Str is well worth three feats. Because Crysmal Growth is basically a weird bonus feat, I'm not counting that as a lost bonus feat.Growth alone is well worth one feat, as per the Titanic Creature and Extra Option feat here. You can't even do it in official D&D. For ability scores you get +1 per feat as per Monster Blooded or an epic feat going for official D&D. A feat that grants 4/3 of a size increase with +3 Con and +2 Str on top is way out of scale with everything else here.
But yeah. What do you people think about making some semi-generalized Monster variants of existing classes? Like a set of Fighter substitution levels that gives a bundle of natural attack benefits and boosts Str a bunch in exchange for lost bonus feats. Or Rogue swapping some Sneak Attack dice for improvements to poison. It can give some rather strong help to classes that need it by giving them a significantly more useful focus.Then you're missing the point. Fighter/barbarian are used in things like the monsterous spider because they're simple and not too strong-perfect for mass produced expendable mooks. Making the process more complicated and powerful is thus kinda against the whole point of mooks.
There's still a bunch of other things here to reply to but something now demands a bit more priority.Referring to my mechanical blunders? Or something you're doing on a different sub-forum?
Growth alone is well worth one feat, as per the Titanic Creature and Extra Option feat here. You can't even do it in official D&D. For ability scores you get +1 per feat as per Monster Blooded or an epic feat going for official D&D. A feat that grants 4/3 of a size increase with +3 Con and +2 Str on top is way out of scale with everything else here....Cross-referencing with other mechanics, including some of the overwhelming potential for rocket-tagging I found in the PsyWar power list, I agree. I keep thinking of how overwhelming builds can get and keep overcompensating for the mechanical failings I see, so I keep having inflated numbers for the sake of dragging closer to functional status. Downed the scaling to one Con per 3 levels and one Str per 4 levels, so level 17 is down to +5/+4 rather than the previous +8/+5.
Then you're missing the point. Fighter/barbarian are used in things like the monsterous spider because they're simple and not too strong-perfect for mass produced expendable mooks. Making the process more complicated and powerful is thus kinda against the whole point of mooks.It'd add just one more step to the process of making the mook, that of choosing replacement levels. Which is kinda already an option, given the lack of wording against it. Designing it to not increase active play complexity would take some effort, but replacing Fighter bonus feats with static bonuses built to be generic monster-friendly improvements reduces complexity of the mook creation and makes playing them much more straightforward. Similarly, rendering stuff like Totem Barbarian, primary source of Pounce for Uberchargers, inaccessible reduces complexity of play and potential power at the same time.
For non-mook monster builds, that's what template classes are for. The Paragon in particular just happens to be the most popular piece of work here. Then the already mentioned Titanic Creature, Monster of Legend, Evolved Undead, Elder Eidolong, Half-Whatever, etc.I fully understand that. But sometimes, you really want generic progression for broad categories to prevent extensive decision making. Because sometimes, people don't want to dig through all the creatures and templates to progress the thing they picked one for in the first place, so they want a clean, generic, progressing option for that thing. Like Poison.
Well I guess I can't exactly stop you if that's your motivation, but I'll ask to at least take in account what's already done.Will do. Or at least try to do.
There's no wording against ACFs for Fighter/Barbarian levels for mooks likely because all of this content is highly suggested to not reference anything official outside Core for ease of play. Which means it could also be likely that all mooks restricted to Fighter/Barbarian weren't intended to have feats/ACFs/ect from sources outside Core but that's a point for clarification ;)Well, reducing overall feat numbers on Fighter still reduces complexity a bunch, so it's still useful. Reworking Barbarian to have less complexity is a bit hard, due to the utter lack of it they have, but there's ways to do that. Rendering things into more statblock focus over finicky triggers like Trap Sense would be just about the only thing. I suppose this could include overhauling Rage into something with only in the moment bookkeeping.
I must ask a few questions.
1. Why is there no Entropic creature template class? There's Vivacious but negative energy is discriminated? Is it because it's dark colored?
2. Ye guys have all fiends but no Kluchirir who is even stronger than balor, eh?
3. Finally, I just want to ask. Growth in classes like Giants where HD is mentioned use character level and racial HD, right? Not class level? And so if one were to gestalt two giant classes, the increases in size stack?
Osle, I'd like you to edit your first post here (http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=270.0) so Tortoise, Dire (http://www.minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=9520.0), is in the Animals Spoiler as Dire Tortoise (http://www.minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=9520.0). Just so all the animals are in the same place.Fixed, thanks!
I must ask a few questions.1. Because nobody requested it and I didn't even knew it existed.
1. Why is there no Entropic creature template class? There's Vivacious but negative energy is discriminated? Is it because it's dark colored?
2. Ye guys have all fiends but no Kluchirir who is even stronger than balor, eh?
3. Finally, I just want to ask. Growth in classes like Giants where HD is mentioned use character level and racial HD, right? Not class level? And so if one were to gestalt two giant classes, the increases in size stack?
Osle, I'd like you to edit your first post here (http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=270.0) so Tortoise, Dire (http://www.minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=9520.0), is in the Animals Spoiler as Dire Tortoise (http://www.minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=9520.0). Just so all the animals are in the same place.Fixed, thanks!I must ask a few questions.1. Because nobody requested it and I didn't even knew it existed.
1. Why is there no Entropic creature template class? There's Vivacious but negative energy is discriminated? Is it because it's dark colored?
2. Ye guys have all fiends but no Kluchirir who is even stronger than balor, eh?
3. Finally, I just want to ask. Growth in classes like Giants where HD is mentioned use character level and racial HD, right? Not class level? And so if one were to gestalt two giant classes, the increases in size stack?
2. See above. :P
3. HD gained from class levels counts just as HD gained from monster class levels. In a gestalt guess they would stack since despite they basically being the same ability with the same exact name, there's a bit of variance. Like you can't stack two sources of sneak attack, but you can stack sneak attack with sudden strike.(click to show/hide)
There is a faq answer for growing, but if you get a monster class that makes you smaller, but want to keep your current size. What happens?Nothing, because the only monster class right now that reduces size is the Miniature creature. If you don't want to go smaller, you can just don't pick the prc whose main purpose is making you smaller.
An idea that popped into my head because of an abysmally-designed class over on GiantITP is having a few Construct classes that have a short list of options at first level, then the rest of the class advances those abilities selected at first level. Fixed hardware, but advancing software.
The actual context was a lazily-overhauled Warlock being used to represent Mei from Overwatch. Now, there's a guy, theperfect25, who's done a bunch of 3.5 classes for Overwatch characters, themed on the characters rather than specifically representing the associated character. For example, Torbjiorn's turret having a bundle of support options and Reaper having a melee weapon available(even though the idea of fixed-weapon martials is something that pisses me off to no end...)
Overwatch is a game I don't play, but some monster classes like the centaur (http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=932.0) follows the "short list of options at first level, then the rest of the class advances those abilities selected at first level" design pattern. It's a perfectly valid way of doing things.
I do apoligise for the double post(even though it's been almost a week), but I'm kind working out some of the basics of AFCs and/or substitution levels for various "simple" classes for use with stuff like the Monstrous Spider's spawning. At a glance, these are the things I'm considering:
Rogue: Swap Sneak Attack with ability DC increases, removing extra rolls and boosting reliability of something that typically has issues at higher levels, even with the 10+1/2 HD baseline.
Fighter: Automatic improvement to Natural Attacks based on the Weapon Focus tree, with flat numbers where multipliers would be. Also flat improvements to critical range and Con damage.
Barbarian: Shift Rage to be more like Power Attack/Shock Trooper, with the scaling being how much you get per AC lost and having the maximum penalty to AC be based on Con or HD.
Basically, cut out the various extra rolls, daily uses, option lists and so on.
While I'm at it with this post, there's some things I'd like to bring up regarding the current standard for the monster classes. A lot of these monster classes have some pretty nice things come out of hit dice advancement. For example, Worgs become Large at 7 HD and have full BAB the whole way there. A three or four level Worg class that gets growth at the last level would make a lot of sense, because it then becomes usable as a mount for a standard-size character. Quite a few of the Medium Animals and Magical Beasts are effective mounts once you give them a few more HD.If a class is meant to be a glorified pet, then it already gets Ideal Cohort by default. For getting bigger, that's literally the whole reason of existence for Titanic Creature.
Maybe solve this issue by having one of those acquirable templates literally everyone puts on their mount whenever possible as a PRC that gives a size increase and Ideal Cohort. Something to solve this awkward situation where you have so many Medium Animals and Magical Beasts that would be absolutely amazing mounts if only they were Large.
Also thematically bad since spiders would like the targets still healthy and juicy for eating.
Rogue isn't really one of the options for monster minion levels, in particular it brings a lot of extra baggage in the form of buckets of skill points and whatnot....How I forgot about the bloated to hell and back skill points of Rogue, I'm not sure. Pretty big reason to avoid using Rogue at all, if it's avoidable.
Poison with two different damage types isn't exactly simplifying things. Extra rolls, extra things to keep track of. Also thematically bad since spiders would like the targets still healthy and juicy for eating. Why not just slap the flat bonuses acf in the fighter? It's kinda the main stick of that class.Not another Poison damage type, more like Wounding where it's a flat amount of Con damage. And this isn't just for the Spiders, really, it's for all such things. Including the eventual . Monk has so many abilities to track that can't be purely ignored(save bonuses, extra health, fiddly uses-per-day) that using that to progress a Natural Attack spam monster runs into overcomplication fairly quickly.
Power Attack/Shock Trooper by any other name means it stacks with power Attack/Shock Trooper and also means even more work on the form of needing to re-calculate things every round.Some number-crunching on the penalties to make it harshly unlikely to get away with stacking mostly works around the issue with stacking, and the stacking issue is largely a problem for when it's in use by players. The round-to-round recalculation is kinda silly coming from the guy who gives 7 or so choices from a list including 15 or more options, several being unlimited repicks, for a CR 5 creature that's only going to see 5 rounds of combat.
If a class is meant to be a glorified pet, then it already gets Ideal Cohort by default. For getting bigger, that's literally the whole reason of existence for Titanic Creature.The thing is that a lot of the Ideal Cohort monsters cap out at Medium. Because their Large size is in the HD progression the vast majority of these classes ignore. A Worg Cohort can't be a mount to a Medium player without either crazy penalties or burning a feat. Same for a lot of the other Magical Beats and Animals with the Ideal Cohort feature. And then there's the kickass Animals and Magical Beasts that don't have Ideal Cohort, cap out at Medium, and have stuff really, really useful for being a mount. Whether it's flight, being able to avoid getting splattered, having a burrow speed to just lolnope being in line of effect of any hazards or having lots of Charge assistance, there's quite a few Medium-sized quadropeds that'd be kickass mounts, and a lot of the existing kickass mounts have the problem of only reaching Large size when you give them two or three more hit dice.
And again, the more I think about it, the more I want to set to work overhauling a lot of the basic monsters to be more realistically usable as monsters. As-is, they just have too many options among them for serious use as NPCs or as just actual monsters, unless you're using a premade setup. And none of the threads have example builds, so DMs wanting to use these classes for their monsters have to make all those choices themselves. They're very much making the appearance of being made for PC use, is what I'm saying, and this poses a problem due to the fact that they're supposed to be used for monsters.
They're very much making the appearance of being made for PC use, is what I'm saying, and this poses a problem due to the fact that they're supposed to be used for monsters.
Eh I've used these monster classes for NPCs quite a few times, it works out pretty well as is. There are a few issues here and there for sure, but I still definitely prefer it over pulling monsters from the books for customization alone (and since I usually do this for e6 I can further customize with feats in any number I want).
That all said monster classes should first and foremost be made for PC use. If the designers want to add additional features making monsters more suited for NPC use AFTER accomplishing to make the monster a suitable class for PCs then I'm all for it. Hell, I think it should be common practice if we had some base guidelines to follow (replacing what we get out of core and terrible CR), though I don't know how viable that would be to integrate with monster classes. People don't always have time (or a desire for that matter) to do that though, and it shouldn't be expected.
...Sorry about the wording, what I was getting at is that these classes appear made for PCs with no regard to the use of them as monsters, due to the complexity involved. This is a problem because the monsters will be massively underwhelming compared to the PC equivalents if you use the MM forms, but would be nonsensically overcomplicated if you use these classes. They are covered in the level of choice-making common to Pathfinder spellcasters, which is actually bad class design in general unless you're very good at preventing trap options.
...Sorry about the wording, what I was getting at is that these classes appear made for PCs with no regard to the use of them as monsters, due to the complexity involved. This is a problem because the monsters will be massively underwhelming compared to the PC equivalents if you use the MM forms, but would be nonsensically overcomplicated if you use these classes. They are covered in the level of choice-making common to Pathfinder spellcasters, which is actually bad class design in general unless you're very good at preventing trap options.
If you want to make monsters, you don't need to follow the rules. They're more what you'd call... guidelines.It's that not every DM has the time or will to be making full statblocks and they're liable to face players expecting similar capabilities between their monster characters and the monsters faced by the party. A dozen Small Monstrous Spiders is a reasonable encounter for a level 5 or so party, but literally cannot be done here because the Monstrous Spider class starts at Medium and, if it was, there'd almost certainly be two or three options to make. God help them if they want a Colossal Broodmother, because that's making statblocks with all those choices each time another Monstrous Spider is spawned and the spawned Swarms have 55 extra HP. Each.
It's that not every DM has the time or will to be making full statblocks
There's a trait in the traits/feat thread to start small, and even a flaw to go another size smaller from start.If you want to make monsters, you don't need to follow the rules. They're more what you'd call... guidelines.It's that not every DM has the time or will to be making full statblocks and they're liable to face players expecting similar capabilities between their monster characters and the monsters faced by the party. A dozen Small Monstrous Spiders is a reasonable encounter for a level 5 or so party, but literally cannot be done here because the Monstrous Spider class starts at Medium and, if it was, there'd almost certainly be two or three options to make.
God help them if they want a Colossal Broodmother, because that's making statblocks with all those choices each time another Monstrous Spider is spawned and the spawned Swarms have 55 extra HP. Each.Eerr, just re-use the same stat-block?
And that's not to mention the problematic situation of mid-combat spawns making the CR rules utterly bizarre because you've got a CR 11 creature spawning CR 7 creatures and CR 1 Swarms, all with significantly enhanced capabilities beyond their normal statblock. Four of those CR 7 spawned spiders should be the same challenge rating as the one that spawned them, and this takes an amount of time that can actually happen in a fight.
Says the person adding manifesting to 100% of their monster classes and wanting to add acfs like there's no tomorrow. :pI can rework Crysmal to be PLAs with cooldowns or daily uses that approximate PP usage, you know. Or, indeed, make a simplified version that has a set progression of abilities. Or give a baseline build for a typical Crysmal, and one for a slightly-better Elite array variety.
Either way I'm not against extra monster versions (chimera's got two in the index and everything), so if you want to do simplified versions of something sure go ahead. Adding extra options isn't even in the guidelines anyway.
There's a trait in the traits/feat thread to start small, and even a flaw to go another size smaller from start....there was actually a bit of an argument about how those two stacked that never got resolved, wasn't there? And the trait(or flaw, not quite sure which) has the issue of automatically setting size to Small, no matter the starting size. Which is kinda problematic/silly when you can jump four size categories in one level.
Eerr, just re-use the same stat-block?The problem is more about the fact that they need to make a statblock for the Colossal broodmother and another for the spawned minions, as well as track the HP of all those Swarms. Huge amount of bookkeeping for a single monster.
Tell that to any summoner/necromancer/druid....once more, I realize that how fundamentally broken 3.5 is is beyond what I could ever expect. I should have learned my lesson from witnessing the attempts to get Pun Pun to have a stat so high, he'd unarguably win against something with an infinite amount of that stat(Aleph 1, as opposed to the standard Aleph 0 infinity).
The core 3.5 succubus also has the infamous 30% chance to summon a much stronger demon, meaning either she wasted a turn or suddenly the battle becomes much harder out of nowhere.
Balor can just summon another Balor.
I don't remember any such argument, neither any confusion on how they would combine.There's a trait in the traits/feat thread to start small, and even a flaw to go another size smaller from start....there was actually a bit of an argument about how those two stacked that never got resolved, wasn't there? And the trait(or flaw, not quite sure which) has the issue of automatically setting size to Small, no matter the starting size. Which is kinda problematic/silly when you can jump four size categories in one level.
Again, not any worst than your typical necromancer/summoner/druid battle. Heck probably still easier since the monstrous spider doesn't have spell lists/slots to worry about.QuoteEerr, just re-use the same stat-block?The problem is more about the fact that they need to make a statblock for the Colossal broodmother and another for the spawned minions, as well as track the HP of all those Swarms. Huge amount of bookkeeping for a single monster.
I don't remember any such argument, neither any confusion on how they would combine.Okay, thinking back it was either Savage stacking with Vow of Poverty or Hoard shenanigans that I was remembering.
Because the trait that makes you small can only be taken if you're medium-sized to begin with, and the flaw reduces one size. You can combine both for a medium sized to start tiny, but somebody that starts small can't take the trait to begin with, only the flaw.Okay, I was fuzzy on the details due to skimming. Common problem I have, lately.
Again, not any worst than your typical necromancer/summoner/druid battle. Heck probably still easier since the monstrous spider doesn't have spell lists/slots to worry about....Again, the fundamental brokenness of 3.5 continues to surprise me, because I actually think about dedicated Summoner casters and weep for the bookkeeping.
And then there's people who just seem to love to write statblocks. I've got a couple players in this forum both taking leadership for a veritable army of carefully built PC minions and I even got the request to make a subforum just for monster classes builds (although not seeing much use nowadays)....Wait, there's people who actually stat out their full Follower count from Leadership? That's a lot of build detail.
...Again, the fundamental brokenness of 3.5 continues to surprise me, because I actually think about dedicated Summoner casters and weep for the bookkeeping.
Just keeping track of party loot must be a nightmare too then, huh? :-\
Thrym Hound (http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=16991.msg299498) should be moved into the Prestige Classes section.
Could you please move the elementals to their own spoiler in the index, in the manner of the draconians or something like that. It would make them easier to find, and there are a few of them now (and there will be more if someone makes the para/quasi elementals into classes as well).No. And let's leave it at that.
Just saw this and wondering... is it you?
https://kotaku.com/d-d-player-mods-hundreds-of-monsters-into-playable-char-1821776481/amp
Oh.... whoops. :PJust saw this and wondering... is it you?
https://kotaku.com/d-d-player-mods-hundreds-of-monsters-into-playable-char-1821776481/amp
Clicked ng the link in the link leads to it saying it's for 5th edition
I did want to do one since I did the Vivacious Creature, but I have not had much free time for vanity projects for the past year =P
(groundbreaking IMHO)Thank you! :)
I made a post there but nobody seems to know why (though a couple other people have PM'd me to say they're interested too, if you're comfortable with me reporting back).It's no surprise nobody stepped forward to comment since they would risk being banned themselves.
(groundbreaking IMHO)Thank you! :)I made a post there but nobody seems to know why (though a couple other people have PM'd me to say they're interested too, if you're comfortable with me reporting back).It's no surprise nobody stepped forward to comment since they would risk being banned themselves.
Still I made my peace with that long ago and the gitp mods can't exactly make me more banned, so I can do it.
I can't say for sure the "why" since the mods didn't exactly present a final report. The only bit where they were clear was some infractions for stuff like calling people "son" and using the term "rawtard" during a discussion. Seems like I reached the three infractions limit and that was worth a ban.
Also I should point out several other prolific posters got the axe just before and after I was banned like Cubey and the Vorpal Tribble, plus I believe there had been a bunch of new mods assigned just before the ban wave started, so I guess they were quite a more draconian bunch and/or had personal grudges to settle. Nowadays when I check the gitp forums (great to see people keep using my homebrew over there) I see plenty of stuff that would've been basically an auto-infraction back in my day.
If you're brought to life after your essence was harvested, you must consume treasure equal to the average treasure for your level (or WBL if you're a PC or named NPC that isn't somebody's cohort/minion) to regain your Savage bonus, until then you're too weakened to fully unleash your abilities.
God SkinGod DomainGod MagicGod Senses-Double the range of your senses (including darkvisiona and low-light vision if you have them). If you have 20 or more HD, they extend out to a radius of one mile per Divine Rank. This doesn't allow you to see trough solid objects.
I feel like this is not how things are supposed to be. There's also something similar in the first Salient Abilities thing, and possibly in the other one.I'm not sure about the deletion but Oslecamo pretty much nailed it on the head.
Mortals and other deities of lower rank can resist the aura�s effects with successful Will saves; the DC is 10 +1/2 HD +Charisma modifier. Deities are immune to the auras of deities of equal or lower Divine rank. Any being who makes a successful saving throw against a deity�s aura power becomes immune to that deity�s aura power for one day.Osl didn't use the U+0027 apostrophe. Due to localization he probably used a character that looks like it and gets converted into an error when everything is said and done.
The link to Prime32s 'More Monster Feats' under Extra Material in the Index got missed up from your edit today Osle.Have retrieved the link from Google cache: http://www.minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=327.0
So for example a green hag 2 who takes a level of sorcerer would count as having 3 levels of sorcerer(2+1) and gain the spell slots and spell known that a sorcerer gains when leveling from level 2 to 3, but not the spell slots and spell known that a sorcerer gets from level 1 to 2, He would get the familiar ability, but half-dragon levels wouldn't count for it.ANNIS HAG-
The hag takes penalties to her physical statistics for aging, instead actually gaining +1 Strength, Dexterity and Constitution with each increase in age category, to a maximum of +1 per Annis Hag level. She ages as a human for the purpose of age categories, starting at adulthood (15+1d4 years old) and aging up past venerable age, but she will never die of old age (although she can always get uglier).Two mistakes I've noticed. Aren't Hags usually lady-monsters?
Gestalt:
You made it clear that a monster can't get the same attribute to AC twice. Can it get two different ability scores to a stat? If a gestalt monster gets CHA mod to natural armor and CON mod to natural armor does it get both? If you get the similar "ability score to X" abilities could it give a small bump like when you repeat SR or DR?
Gestalt:Unless otherwise noted, if you would gain natural armor based in two different abilitiy scores, you gain both.
You made it clear that a monster can't get the same attribute to AC twice. Can it get two different ability scores to a stat? If a gestalt monster gets CHA mod to natural armor and CON mod to natural armor does it get both? If you get the similar "ability score to X" abilities could it give a small bump like when you repeat SR or DR?
Natural attacks:Yes.
If I have a deepspawn/grell crossbreed you have to choose either 3 or 10 tentacle attacks and 3 or 1 bites respectively. Is that right?
Can I assume you still get the class abilities of both monsters for those type of natural attacks? Ex. Grell tentacles get improved grab, Deepspawn tentacles flank with bite attacks on same creature.Technically yes.
Monster Lord:-Yes.
Could it work for miniature creatures to get mini bonuses without the minuses for being mini?
How does the powerful build aspect of monster lord interact with trample, space, and reach?
Do you calculate reach distance from your medium space or can you still reach as far as if you were your Colossal size?
Can you stomp a city block while still appearing to be medium size?
Well Natural Armor bonuses generally don't stack, but a lot of the content here have clauses stating if you have a higher bonus from a different source, you add a +1 instead.
Monster Lord:-Yes.
Could it work for miniature creatures to get mini bonuses without the minuses for being mini?
How does the powerful build aspect of monster lord interact with trample, space, and reach?
Do you calculate reach distance from your medium space or can you still reach as far as if you were your Colossal size?
Can you stomp a city block while still appearing to be medium size?
-Only fill medium space, but can still trample and reach as original size.
-From your medium space.
-Yes, shockwaves.
I also think once an ability reaches more than 10/day it should probably be At-Will or Per Encounter, which is typically what the original monster has at that same CR/HD. Quite a few end up capable of using their basic ability a good 20 or 30 or 40 times per day (looking at you Mindflayer and Concordant Killer), which is functionally At-Will when it isn't put in an endurance test.(click to show/hide)
Plenty of monsters have the option to choose from open lists of spells for SLAs. Something like this opens up abuses in such cases. Might be a good idea to put in a clause preventing this being used with such options.Got any examples? The second feat requires at least 12 uses per day as your base number, and I can't think of any monster class with an SLA that can be used that many times but is still problematic.
Is there a reason there isn't a half-elemental template? I've tried searching around a bit, and can't seem to find one, has no one gotten around to it yet? Is it not needed? What's the deal? No rush, if it hasn't been created I'll work on it, just curious.There isn't one, but I do wonder which you're referring to, as there's the "like X creature but actually made of Y element" templates, while I cannot recall their names for the life of me, which would be understandable as a separate one given their replacement functions, but the literal hybrids are much less understandable due to the various direct multiclassing options.
I have a question.Pretty sure it's just "New Topic" button, to the right of the pages. Least, that's how it was for me...
How exactly do I go about submitting my own creation to this sub-forum? I have an idea that I would absolutely love to see played out, but I am unsure if it would be suitable to do so.
Pretty sure it's just "New Topic" button, to the right of the pages. Least, that's how it was for me...
...does "just the new "New Topic" button" really not imply that there's nothing more to it? Because it was just the "New Topic" button, no permission, no previous talk, just wrote it up and posted the thread.Pretty sure it's just "New Topic" button, to the right of the pages. Least, that's how it was for me...
I was not talking about the mechanics of doing so. I know how to click the New Topic Button.
I was asking if it was just acceptable for me to randomly make a monster here, or if there's someone I needed to ask permission for before.
Plus remain from making snarky, completely useless replies.