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Creative Corner => New Mechanics and Subsystems => Homebrew and House Rules (D&D) => Oslecamo's Improved Monster Classes => Topic started by: oslecamo on November 15, 2011, 03:17:42 PM

Title: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: oslecamo on November 15, 2011, 03:17:42 PM
Want to throw out an opinion not tied to any specific monster class? Ask general questions to me and the other contributors?
Here's the place!
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Prime32 on November 17, 2011, 06:44:24 AM
So, IIRC some of the threads here were being transferred over by others and should be reattributed to OC? Let me know which ones those are.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: oslecamo on November 17, 2011, 07:12:38 AM
Well Bhu hasn't actualy done any monster class, but he said he was willing to help transfer material from the old boards. I pointed him here and he's now giving the project an helping hand.

 So the ones wich should be reattributed to me would be all the ones Bhu has been doing here.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Strabo on November 26, 2011, 05:49:24 AM
I absolutely love the idea of monster classes, but these classes seem so powerful (especially casting ones, like Ethergaunts). It may be because I have no sense of balance, but can someone disprove my point? Has anyone played one of them?
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: CDTalmas on November 26, 2011, 10:14:59 AM
I absolutely love the idea of monster classes, but these classes seem so powerful (especially casting ones, like Ethergaunts). It may be because I have no sense of balance, but can someone disprove my point? Has anyone played one of them?

Do take note that these monsters were designed to be tier 2, and probably upper tier 2 at that.  They are good... but they can be beat.  My group has proven that on multiple occasions.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Kajhera on November 26, 2011, 10:37:08 AM
We play them pretty regularly, though I'm pretty sure we're using earlier versions of them.

As a DM I've been very satisfied - they're powerful and simple enough to play that those who aren't that great at optimizing, and normally play characters they are dissatisfied with (whatever the tier) finally seem empowered and happy because they're playing a cool thing and it's working. The people good with the lower-tier normal classes don't risk overshadowing the group just by being effective.

But I haven't had any trouble throwing challenging encounters at them. Combats are fun and easy for me to run, I have a good idea what my players can do, and I don't worry too much about shifting a few good feats into my monsters to make the encounter interesting. Or spending NPC treasure effectively. Encounters with CR+2 creatures work well (for the 3 of them) as challenging encounters...

I'm generally quite happy with these classes. Kudos to Oslecamo.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Strabo on November 26, 2011, 10:47:41 AM
Thanks for all the replies, now I am calm. Maybe I'll play force golem, khayal or nerra in a future game  :plotting.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: oslecamo on November 26, 2011, 04:09:48 PM
Yeah, my classes are aiming at the higher power levels, but I do strive to keep out broken combos, loops and the like that actualy break campaigns.

On the other hand, I could really use any and all first-hand experiences so I can seek to improve the project's quality.

If you have the time, I would love to hear about how my monster classes performed in your games. :)

Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: bhu on December 10, 2011, 05:04:10 AM
Hey Os, am I splitting the Nagas or leaving them all in one post?
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: oslecamo on December 10, 2011, 09:55:03 AM
Split them please, but leave them in the same thread (1st post for the "base" naga, then three other posts for each of the "prcs"). How we did with the kythons.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Anomander on December 10, 2011, 11:07:52 PM
I just noticed. The alphabetical order of the index got the W after the X.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: bhu on December 12, 2011, 04:18:29 AM
Me again.  I'm having a lot of trouble with teh table for the Nimblewright.  Any chance you can edit it in?
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: oslecamo on December 12, 2011, 10:11:55 AM
I just noticed. The alphabetical order of the index got the W after the X.
Congratulations, you just found out W isn't a letter in my native language. Fix'd.

Me again.  I'm having a lot of trouble with teh table for the Nimblewright.  Any chance you can edit it in?
Will do.

However I must remind you I already had ported the undeads. You can skip those, like the mummy and nightwalker. :p
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: bhu on December 12, 2011, 04:09:36 PM
facepalms  :banghead


sorry bout that.  real life is being a pain, I don't know how I forgot that.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: bhu on December 13, 2011, 04:56:32 AM
I edited Nymph and Nixie into the duplicate critter posts
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Bloody Initiate on December 14, 2011, 02:00:36 PM
I logged on today with the specific intent of transferring my classes over to the new site, and found you guys had already done it for me! Thank you for going through the trouble of doing so.

When it is convenient, any chance of getting credited for them? I only got credited for the Azer, not the Nimblewright, Force Golem, or Maug. I understand it was probably a pain moving them over with a new format and all, but it's genuinely eerie seeing things you made posted by other people without your name on them anywhere.

As for new material, I have no idea when I'll next be able to spend a large amount of time on these boards. Likely not until the start of the new year. Working nights for Christmas money :)

Thanks again for the work you do.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: oslecamo on December 14, 2011, 02:15:57 PM
Ouch, seems like I missed that in the middle of all the ports. I put the full blame on Bhu Put the credits in.

Glad to see you're still interested in helping the project as well!

bhu:Nice, that way we don't need to delete threads.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Prime32 on December 14, 2011, 02:25:34 PM
Just let me know when you want posts reattributed.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: oslecamo on December 18, 2011, 05:29:21 PM
Just let me know when you want posts reattributed.

Ok, can you reatributte the ones Bhu did to me, except those that Bloody Initiate pointed out, which should be atributed to him? Thanks in advance.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Prime32 on December 18, 2011, 06:23:13 PM
Done. Sorry I didn't respond to your PM.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: bhu on December 19, 2011, 04:22:47 AM
Note for bloody initiate: The Nimblewright isnt quite done, the table at bottom kept messing up when i tried to paste it

OS: In the index the Ak-Chazar Rakshasa leads to the Naztharune post i did, I havent brought over the ak-chazar yet.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: oslecamo on December 19, 2011, 06:46:37 PM
Corrected the evil cats entries, and added the missing Nimbleright table since I was at it, thanks for pointing it out!
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: bhu on December 21, 2011, 05:33:28 AM
sorry ive been a lil slow the last few days things are a lil tense in rl
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Prime32 on December 22, 2011, 05:25:04 PM
The Intro could use updating. Having classes there is kind of redundant, and the feats link still points back to BG.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: oslecamo on December 22, 2011, 07:15:02 PM
Updated the link, but I don't consider the classes there redudant, more like a "preview" of sorts.

Good new: Seems like my Scholar class won the voting to be used in the first homebrew optimization contest! (http://) :D

Bad news: drow is delayed, christmas mood isn't exactly the best to flesh out a staple CE  backstabbing, manipulating and poisoning race that seems to hate everything. :shakefist

Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: bhu on December 28, 2011, 05:37:53 AM
Should be back to reposting classes later tonight.  Been a bad week.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Chaos Emerald on December 28, 2011, 02:36:07 PM
Hello, I mostly had one question, while I imagine the Key class ability score changing to charisma for movanic deva (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=600.new#new) was mostly referring to Spellcaster, does it apply to any other classes? Like for example wisdom for monk, would use charisma for ac bonuses or cunning insight would use charisma instead of intelligence?
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: oslecamo on December 28, 2011, 05:20:42 PM
Should be back to reposting classes later tonight.  Been a bad week.

Hope it gets better. My RL has been pretty good actually, but still quite busy and doesn't leave a lot of free time for online projects.

Hello, I mostly had one question, while I imagine the Key class ability score changing to charisma for movanic deva (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=600.new#new) was mostly referring to Spellcaster, does it apply to any other classes? Like for example wisdom for monk, would use charisma for ac bonuses or cunning insight would use charisma instead of intelligence?

Yes, the Monavic Deva was suposed to be able to use Cha for other classes, representing the whole "graceful angel" thing!
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: bhu on January 01, 2012, 07:59:16 PM
What Hit Die am I using for Red Slaad, the usual d8? it isnt in the original post
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: oslecamo on January 02, 2012, 12:52:48 PM
D8 HD now that you mention it, went ahead and added it myself as I'm updating the index.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: bhu on January 08, 2012, 11:15:29 PM
and it's done cept for the template classes  :drunk
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: oslecamo on January 09, 2012, 10:22:11 AM
Almost there, many thanks! :D

If you have too much trouble with the half-golem I can take care of it.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: bhu on January 11, 2012, 04:22:37 AM
yeah a few of the half critters might be better looking if you do them ...
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: oslecamo on January 11, 2012, 05:39:10 PM
K, took care of the half-golem. Any other that would give you too much trouble?
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: bhu on January 13, 2012, 06:41:21 PM
havent really peeked at them too much, think i just have to edit ulitharid into the mindflayer, and add the weres.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: bhu on January 14, 2012, 07:15:57 PM
The next several weeks are gonna be kinda awkward.  I may lose my isp or electricity or be evicted unless i find a way to juggle things.  I may be a lil distracted so if I slow down porting stuff over have no fear ill be back soon.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: oslecamo on January 16, 2012, 07:25:56 PM
Ouch, I wish you good luck with dealing with those!

Myself quite busy with RL stuff, may have time to drop some critiques and hopefully harvester devil tomorrow.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: bhu on January 16, 2012, 11:56:36 PM
Yuan Ti Anathema is listed with the other yuan ti

War troll is listed with troll

adding ulitharid to mindflayer
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: bhu on January 19, 2012, 03:46:25 AM
Hi Os, I think some of the lycanthropes are gonna give me trouble.  At least once i get down to the second table in the text cause i just know its gonna post wrong..
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: oslecamo on January 19, 2012, 08:16:39 AM
Exams coming up and I need to really focus on studying, so I'll be fully suspending my activity around here for around two weeks, until I have some free time again.

Feel free to post any new monsters, but you'll have to wait for critiques from me.

If you see me posting on this forums before I announce here my exams are over, please slap me.

Bhu:Thanks for the head-ups, I'll take care of it when I get back.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: oslecamo on February 13, 2012, 10:45:32 AM
And the porting is now fully done! A big thanks for all the people who helped!
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: bhu on February 16, 2012, 10:50:42 PM
anything else i can do?
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Nanshork on February 17, 2012, 12:27:18 AM
Hooray, fully ported!
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: oslecamo on February 17, 2012, 07:07:19 PM
anything else i can do?

Well, unless you're willing to search for typos or take a shot at the monsters in the waiting list, I have nothing else for you to do.

Thanks again for your suport!
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: sirpercival on March 08, 2012, 10:12:03 AM
Os, question.  In the Anthro Animal writeup, you have:

Quote
What has magic done?: At 1st and 2nd level the antropormhopic animal may select two of the following bonus.  Unless otherwise noticed no ability from this list may be picked more than once.

The wording is a little unclear -- do you get 2 at each of 1st and 2nd level (so 4 total), or just 1 each (2 total)?
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: oslecamo on March 08, 2012, 03:23:07 PM
Two at first level and two at 2nd level for 4 total.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Retrokinesis on April 05, 2012, 02:42:55 AM
So is it just me, or do the werecreatures seem to be a lot weaker than any of the others? I mean, they replace your physical abilities completely and none of them have particularly amazing stat boosts. Especially since you don't get strength increases for growing in size, but you do get strength *penalties* for taking a smaller size (see weretiger). Spending extra transformations to grow larger only increases your natural weapon damage and makes you easier to hit, in addition to being a pain to use (you try fitting a colossal spider in a sewer :P). Compared to base 3.5's werecreatures, with unlimited uses and additive stats, I'm not sure I'd take any of these templates over something like death knight or paragon.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Nanshork on April 05, 2012, 03:58:50 AM
That's why I wanted to put in that bit about picking what ability scores are best for the hybrid.

Furthermore:
Quote from: SRD
Abilities

All lycanthropes gain +2 to Wisdom. In addition, when in animal form, a lycanthrope’s physical ability scores improve according to its kind, as set out in the table below. These adjustments are equal to the animal’s normal ability scores -10 or -11. A lycanthrope in hybrid form modifies its physical ability scores by the same amount.

"Official" lycanthropes NEVER have their scores lowered by changing into animal or hybrid forms.

I know all about this stuff, I wrote the official Lycanthropy guide.   :p
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: oslecamo on April 05, 2012, 08:55:29 PM
So is it just me, or do the werecreatures seem to be a lot weaker than any of the others? I mean, they replace your physical abilities completely and none of them have particularly amazing stat boosts. Especially since you don't get strength increases for growing in size, but you do get strength *penalties* for taking a smaller size (see weretiger). Spending extra transformations to grow larger only increases your natural weapon damage and makes you easier to hit, in addition to being a pain to use (you try fitting a colossal spider in a sewer :P).
Here are my reasonings:
-Ability scores being replaced simply means you can dump your basic scores and invest them somewhere else.
-Even with those "penalties", Str 19 is pretty far from shabby.
-Raaghh, why does the only thing people think about with size categories is bloody str?  :banghead
Reach? Grapple? Trip? You actually get immune to some nasty effects (f*** you forcecage).  The fact you can now actually block a passage with your body?  Size =/= Str score damnit!  :shakefist

Compared to base 3.5's werecreatures, with unlimited uses and additive stats, I'm not sure I'd take any of these templates over something like death knight or paragon.
Now this is a more relevant point. Following Nanshork's endless bickering interested sugestions, I added the following ability to all weres:


Ability:
All lycanthropes gain +2 to Wisdom. In addition, when in animal form, a lycanthrope’s physical ability scores improve according to its kind, as set out in the table below. These adjustments are equal to the animal’s normal ability scores -10. A lycanthrope in hybrid form modifies its physical ability scores by the same amount.

Also this happens to screw over people who would dump their base str scores in a suposed bruiser character, but gently caress them.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Retrokinesis on April 05, 2012, 10:19:31 PM
Compared to base 3.5's werecreatures, with unlimited uses and additive stats, I'm not sure I'd take any of these templates over something like death knight or paragon.
Now this is a more relevant point. Following Nanshork's endless bickering interested sugestions, I added the following ability to all weres:


Ability:
All lycanthropes gain +2 to Wisdom. In addition, when in animal form, a lycanthrope’s physical ability scores improve according to its kind, as set out in the table below. These adjustments are equal to the animal’s normal ability scores -10. A lycanthrope in hybrid form modifies its physical ability scores by the same amount.

Also this happens to screw over people who would dump their base str scores in a suposed bruiser character, but gently caress them.
That seems like a good balance between making your base stats useful and making the alternate form useful. Do those apply on top of the improved hybrid form attributes from higher HD? Also, want me to go through the animal base forms and figure out the stat bonuses? I noticed they're not added yet so I could save you the time if you like.

EDIT: So I went through and calculated the stat bonuses for all the different forms, and discovered some interesting things. Raw data is below, in the format +Str/+Dex/+Con = total stat modifier.
(click to show/hide)
What I gather from this is:


Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Nanshork on April 06, 2012, 01:41:14 AM
I'm going to wait until this is officially sorted out before I add it into my class.

1) Retrokinesis brings up a good point that I have no idea how to address without standardizing stat bonuses from hybrid form completely.

2) oslecamo, are you sure you want to add an extra +2 to wisdom for all the lycanthropes?  You know what balance level you're looking for better than I do, I just don't want you to add it because of my endless bickering interested suggestions.   :p
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: oslecamo on April 06, 2012, 06:55:32 AM
I'm going to wait until this is officially sorted out before I add it into my class.

1) Retrokinesis brings up a good point that I have no idea how to address without standardizing stat bonuses from hybrid form completely.
Alternate form isn't only about stat bonus. Is also about extra movement forms, nat armor, and the ocasional extra  Ex ability. Also gently caress standardization, otherwise I would've just made a single generic monster class and kept adding random chooseable abilities.


Horned lizard already had the advantage of having the spines ability, but now I noticed they can't start as tiny, so changed it to a custom horned lizard with medium size and base 12 str on top of the spines.


2) oslecamo, are you sure you want to add an extra +2 to wisdom for all the lycanthropes?  You know what balance level you're looking for better than I do, I just don't want you to add it because of my endless bickering interested suggestions.   :p
Yes I'm sure. It kinda makes sense, and it's not like divine casters will want to lose a level just for +2 Wis and an alternate form. What's the worst that can happen? People picking it up as monk? :p
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Hushblade on April 06, 2012, 09:35:22 AM
Quote
a lycanthrope’s physical ability scores improve according to its kind, as set out in the table below. These adjustments are equal to the animal’s normal ability scores -10. A lycanthrope in hybrid form modifies its physical ability scores by the same amount.

Shouldn't the specifics be added to each specific lycanthrope page?
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: oslecamo on April 07, 2012, 05:37:11 PM
Ok guys, I guess I owe you all an apology. I had completely forgoten how my were classes were suposed to work (cheap pun!).

You see, one of the basis of this whole project is precisely to ditch the original massive ability score bonus. The lychantropes would simply give you some natural weapons, nat armor and movement modes plus some static bonus that varied little from one to the other, the ones in the table. But somehow I ended up naming the ability alternate form, which I didn't notice back then that it did grant the original creature's stats.

Not anymore. All lychantrope alternate forms now replaced by Were Form, that really doesn't care about the original animal besides looks. It only grants what's written on the class, no more, no less. It's how one of the players in my campaigns has been using it all along and it works pretty well. Actually it's thanks to him I figured  out I was just overcomplicating and overpowering things at this point. One level for +4 Str, +7 Dex and +9 con plus other goodies? What was I thinking, seriously.


Also something else I missed.
The mechanics for the werehydra are really confusing :)
What's to be confused about? You gain 1 extra head per WH level plus another for each non WH level, half that in Werehydra form, and you grow up more heads as you take damage.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Nanshork on April 07, 2012, 05:56:20 PM
That solves that problem right up.

oslecamo, most of the lycanthropes still have the Ability class feature listed under first level.  I got rid of it in Werebadger but you'll need to take it out of the rest.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: oslecamo on April 08, 2012, 03:53:57 PM
Done!

Also happy Easter everybody!
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Daedroth on April 15, 2012, 02:49:05 PM
Yo have 2 times Worg in the index.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: oslecamo on April 15, 2012, 05:43:55 PM
Fixed.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: oslecamo on April 23, 2012, 06:27:17 PM
Minor updates in a couple classes:

Gloom-now gains Trapfinding at 3rd level.

LeShay-Now Charming Eyes can replicate Charm Person at 3 HD, and gains fast healing equal to 1/4 HD at 4th level.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: sirpercival on May 06, 2012, 07:12:09 PM
Can I request the Voidmind template?  Also, we need more monster feats.

I'll see if I can think of any.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: oslecamo on May 06, 2012, 07:19:14 PM
There's a thread for requests, but yes it seems doable.

Also, in case it isn't clear yet, people who contribute to this project get their requests done faster.  :p
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: sirpercival on May 06, 2012, 07:34:05 PM
Oh wow I thought this was the requests thread.  But it isn't.  It's the general discussion thread. :facepalm

And yes I will certainly write up some feats, and post them in the Feats thread for your perusal.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: oslecamo on May 09, 2012, 09:42:00 AM
Minor update in the Death Drinker (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1822.msg18301#msg18301), added a couple minor abilities at levels 1 and 2 (First Blood and Cull the Weak), added combat synergy to dispel magic and teleport, and cleaned around a little.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Krika on May 17, 2012, 10:28:32 AM
I'm interested in doing a template class for Evolved Undead, and Spell-Stiched Undead, but going by the guidelines they'd both end up as kinda boring (In my opinion, at least) 1-level deals. Is it OK if I expanded them into 3 or 4 level deals? I think they'd end as more interesting classes, but I've never really done something quite like this before, so I'm really not sure.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: oslecamo on May 17, 2012, 05:28:37 PM
Evolved undead is a special case because it can be applied over and over, so go ahead and make it as big as you want.

As for spell-stitched, yes it should be 1 level long, and I can't see what would be the problem with that. Some DR, some SR, some SLAs, done. It wasn't a deep template to begin with.

But sure, you can go ahead and make a SpellStitched Lord or Greater Spellstitched expanding the 1 level prc if you want. You'll still have to fit the basics on the first level. Making it interesting is the challenge. I've seen 20-level long classes with no interest whatsoever, while other classes are amazing even if used as single dips (cough martial adepts cough).
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Nanshork on May 18, 2012, 10:41:37 AM
I think I'll take a crack at the Marruspawn this weekend.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: oslecamo on May 18, 2012, 03:16:08 PM
That's nice to hear, but could you also post your actions on the Nintendo Universe campaign? Only your character left to act for this turn.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Nanshork on May 18, 2012, 04:13:07 PM
So needy.   :p 

Done.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Nanshork on May 19, 2012, 01:38:11 AM
Marruspawn: Multiple separate classes or classes that require each other like Prime is doing with the Undying?
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: oslecamo on May 19, 2012, 06:57:13 AM
Prime32's aproach (also used for the Naga, Troll and Kython among others I should point out) only works if the "greater" versions have the same abilities of the "lesser" ones.

So you can't use it with the Marruspawn, since the "lesser" one is a rogue true and trough while the "greater" versions are a soldier and an arcanist whitout sneaky abilities whatsoever.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Nanshork on May 19, 2012, 12:28:48 PM
True, but the soldier and the arcane one are soooooooooo booooooooooooring.

I also have no idea where to go with the abomination.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: sirpercival on May 19, 2012, 12:56:26 PM
Osle, I did the base Githyanki, before I move on to the other iterations (soldier, gish, captain) will you check it out, since it's my first?
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: oslecamo on May 19, 2012, 02:29:05 PM
True, but the soldier and the arcane one are soooooooooo booooooooooooring.

Then do just the sneaky one. If you can't think how to make a monster not boring, then it's best to tackle other one.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Prime32 on May 19, 2012, 04:22:26 PM
Prime32's aproach (also used for the Naga, Troll and Kython among others I should point out) only works if the "greater" versions have the same abilities of the "lesser" ones.
Technically they don't. The councilors don't have Smite Evil, and ascendant councilors actually lose one or two of the undying councilor's SLAs (and replace Cleansing with Purification). But those are pretty minor, especially at high levels, so I didn't see the harm.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: oslecamo on May 20, 2012, 02:01:31 PM
So I leave here for a day and when I return there's a half-dozen new classes to review. This is gonna take some time... :P
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Rakoa on May 20, 2012, 02:14:43 PM
A sign of a strong project!  :D
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Prime32 on May 21, 2012, 09:42:44 AM
Anyone want to try Greater Doppelganger or Ethereal Doppelganger? Maybe as Doppelganger PrCs. (if I remember ED's abilities right, it could be a PrC which requires some levels of GD but not all)
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: sirpercival on May 21, 2012, 10:00:57 AM
Ooh, that sounds fun.  I can do them after the Githyanki & Githzerai are done.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: VennDygrem on May 28, 2012, 12:24:43 AM
I've written up a monster-specific Prestige Class. Should I post it in the monster's thread or in its own separate thread? I'll probably need help rebalancing it from other people, so I don't want to clog the other thread, but spinning it off into its own seems unnecessary. Thoughts?
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: oslecamo on May 28, 2012, 10:43:58 AM
You can post it here. The templates have been basically treated as Monster Prcs already so no problem.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: VennDygrem on May 28, 2012, 05:49:51 PM
I'm not sure what that means. Do you mean post it here as in this thread? Or do you mean in its own thread?
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: oslecamo on May 28, 2012, 08:50:38 PM
The respective monster's thread.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Rakoa on May 30, 2012, 03:22:49 PM
I volunteer myself for the bear class. It will be done.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: TravelLog on June 05, 2012, 11:28:06 AM
Kraken has been updated, and I posted Shaedling. Both awaiting approval.  :P
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Rakoa on June 05, 2012, 01:27:39 PM
I have recently come into possession of MMII, I shall flip through and see if anything piques my interest.  :)

EDIT: So far, the Corollax is awesome (but not really suited to be a class, fear the 1/2CR bird) and whoever came up with the idea for a giant, animated graveyard that walks around and eats dead bodies was a sick person.

EDIT 2: ...and that guy was sane compared to whoever invented "The Flesh Jelly". In other news, Firebat is an interesting one. I may just do that. Some nice firey abilities, and I could totally rip off the Gelatinous Cubes budding for their splitting.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: littha on June 07, 2012, 09:08:25 AM
Would anyone mind a huge amount if I made a non D&D creature into a class?
Most specifically the Deathjack
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: oslecamo on June 07, 2012, 09:28:52 AM
For the 26th time, yes you can make non-D&D monsters classes. I myself did a couple  Skavens (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2519.msg28796#msg28796), that are from Warhammer Fantasy.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: littha on June 07, 2012, 09:35:25 AM
 :D
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Demonic Spoon on June 12, 2012, 12:02:28 PM
Well, not sure if I should post this in the monster's thread or here, so I'll just post it here, but I noticed a rather important typo in the skybleeder (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=3295.0) class. Also, any particular reason they don't get control weather? Too powerful?

I quote:

Acid Rain: At 6th level the Skybleeder can make its tentacles weep a slimy red acid. This acid does 1d4 points of acid damage per 3 HD per round to anything and anyone the Skybleeder hovers or flies over. A Reflex save with DC 10+1/2 HD+ Con mod halves this damage. The acid becomes inert right after it deals damage, so a target is only affected for as long as the skybleeder remains overhead. The Skybleeder can stop using this ability or resume it as an immediate action. It can also still use Acid Drizzle as normal.

Such is the corrosive nature of this rain that it ignores an amount of acid resistance equal to the Skybleeder's HD. Even other creatures normally immune to acid simply count as having Acid Resistance 20 against this.

-snip-

Acid Torrent: At 10th level, if the Skybleeder's already using Acid Rain, it can further intensify it as a swift action for 1 round, making it cause 1d4 acid damage per HD instead of just 2d4 acid damage. It can use this ability a number of times per day equal to its Con mod.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Nanshork on June 12, 2012, 12:44:02 PM
Well, not sure if I should post this in the monster's thread or here, so I'll just post it here, but I noticed a rather important typo in the skybleeder (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=3295.0) class. Also, any particular reason they don't get control weather? Too powerful?

I quote:

Acid Rain: At 6th level the Skybleeder can make its tentacles weep a slimy red acid. This acid does 1d4 points of acid damage per 3 HD per round to anything and anyone the Skybleeder hovers or flies over. A Reflex save with DC 10+1/2 HD+ Con mod halves this damage. The acid becomes inert right after it deals damage, so a target is only affected for as long as the skybleeder remains overhead. The Skybleeder can stop using this ability or resume it as an immediate action. It can also still use Acid Drizzle as normal.

Such is the corrosive nature of this rain that it ignores an amount of acid resistance equal to the Skybleeder's HD. Even other creatures normally immune to acid simply count as having Acid Resistance 20 against this.

-snip-

Acid Torrent: At 10th level, if the Skybleeder's already using Acid Rain, it can further intensify it as a swift action for 1 round, making it cause 1d4 acid damage per HD instead of just 2d4 acid damage. It can use this ability a number of times per day equal to its Con mod.

You can post this kind of thing in the monster thread.  :)
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: oslecamo on June 12, 2012, 02:41:15 PM
What Nanshork said. Fixed the typo since I was at it, thanks for pointing it out.

EDIT: Wait, they're suposed to get control weather? I'll check that.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: QuantumPhase on June 15, 2012, 09:24:48 AM
Can someone go into more detail about the "If it multiclasses for a/an ___ class it can count ___ levels as levels of that class...."? Examples would be nice....
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: oslecamo on June 16, 2012, 07:30:28 AM
Can someone go into more detail about the "If it multiclasses for a/an ___ class it can count ___ levels as levels of that class...."? Examples would be nice....

Pretty much every monster that has that ability has a short example.

But ok, let's say you've taken two levels of said monster than then change to wizard. You now count as if you already had two wizard levels before.

Normally a wizard has 4 cantrip slots and 2 1st level spell slots at 2nd level, and when he levels up to third level he gains one 2nd level spell slot.

So your monster/wizard character gain a 2nd level spell slot, but no 1st level or cantrip slots. Your CL is 3.  If you pick another wizard level, then  you get another 2nd level spell slot and a 1st level spell slot, because that's what a wizard gains when they go from level 3 to 4.

The FAQ has detailed tables on how many spell slots you gain when multiclassing at each level trough this way.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: QuantumPhase on June 16, 2012, 08:12:05 PM
Can someone go into more detail about the "If it multiclasses for a/an ___ class it can count ___ levels as levels of that class...."? Examples would be nice....

Pretty much every monster that has that ability has a short example.

But ok, let's say you've taken two levels of said monster than then change to wizard. You now count as if you already had two wizard levels before.

Normally a wizard has 4 cantrip slots and 2 1st level spell slots at 2nd level, and when he levels up to third level he gains one 2nd level spell slot.

So your monster/wizard character gain a 2nd level spell slot, but no 1st level or cantrip slots. Your CL is 3.  If you pick another wizard level, then  you get another 2nd level spell slot and a 1st level spell slot, because that's what a wizard gains when they go from level 3 to 4.

The FAQ has detailed tables on how many spell slots you gain when multiclassing at each level trough this way.
Thanks! I saw the examples on the pages, but I wasn't exactly sure if I understood it correctly. Now, off to make my tsochar sorcerer!
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: littha on June 30, 2012, 09:55:34 PM
I was thinking of writing the Tauric template up as a PRC but I have sort of stumbled into a wall... I was going to have the only requirement be level 1 and have the body ability grant the natural attacks of both creatures (not bite/gore from lower half or rake from upper half) and the better of the two's natural armor but it seems like a nightmare to write... Obviously it needs to be at level 1 and you need to decide on the two forms there and then but you wont have any levels in either class at that point.

It is also really strange to have a PRC at level 1 but I guess that is what happens if you get templates mixed up with your PRCs... anyway, I would like some help on wording, my thought so far:
Quote
Tauric Body(Ex): At level 1 you must choose two creatures, one to form your upper body and another to form your lower body. Your upper body may never be larger than your lower body. You gain the natural weapons of both the upper and lower bodies except for the bite and gore attacks of the lower body and rake attacks of the upper body. You also gain gain the better of each creatures Natural armor bonus. You may multiclass freely between both monster classes.

First problem is that there is a pressure to use monster classes for both halves rather than Human/Monster as I would like and the second is that you may end up with a huge number of natural weapon attacks...
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: sirpercival on June 30, 2012, 10:00:14 PM
How do you intend it to interact with Monstrous Hybrid?  Maybe you can make use of that?
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: littha on June 30, 2012, 10:02:33 PM
Possibly but it really needs to do more than that, Tauric defines your form whereas Monsterous hybrid is just about the multiclassing.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: oslecamo on July 01, 2012, 06:49:58 AM
First problem is that there is a pressure to use monster classes for both halves rather than Human/Monster as I would like and the second is that you may end up with a huge number of natural weapon attacks...

If you grant the racial traits of a base race it becomes a lot more tempting, but then make sure the first level is granting little else.

Also specify that you only get to pick LA 0 races and monster classes, right now you get to pick the srd tarrasque as one of the starting halves.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: littha on July 01, 2012, 11:22:47 PM
I intend the body ability to be the entire first level of the class, second level would grant the other bonuses of each race's first level and third would count as the first level of each class for progression purposes. Thus Tauric Angel/Pegasus would look something like this:

1 Angel Slam attack, Pegasi move speed, Pegasi Hoof attacks, Choice of either angel or pegasi AC bonus.
2 Pegasi Spell-like Abilities, Divine Blood, Scent, Celestial blood, Heaven Miracle, Change Shape
3 Counts as the 1st level of each class, Something Else...

So at level 3 the Tauric Angel/Pegasus has the powers of a level 1 pegasus and level 1 angel (with bonus spell slots due to Divine Blood) and could go strait into the second level of one of the classes without having to take the first level again.

Thoughts? Don't want to start a thread for a half baked idea. It is not based off the CR of the tauric template either, being as it has +0 CR (And is ridiculously broken)
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Prime32 on July 15, 2012, 05:32:56 PM
Been reading Fiendish Codex 2. A suggestion for the devil classes:

Infernal Promotion: A devil who has reached maximum level in his monster class can choose to undergo a transformation into a devil of higher rank whenever he gains another character level. Build a new character from scratch with the same number of HD and as many levels in the next rank's monster class as possible; these stats permanently replace your original stats.

Quote from: Ranks
Standard
Lemure/Nupperibo -> Spined devil -> Bearded devil -> Imp -> Steel devil -> Chain devil -> Erinyes*/Harvester devil/Pain devil -> Amnizu -> Bone devil/Malebranche*/Orthon -> Barbed devil -> Ice devil -> Horned devil -> Assassin devil/Pleasure devil* -> Paeliryon -> Pit fiend

Abishai
Lemure -> White abishai -> Black abishai -> Green abishai -> Blue abishai -> Red abishai -> Chain devil -> (as standard)

*These devils can be promoted to higher forms, but other devils cannot be promoted into them.
(the ability description for each devil mentioning only the new forms available to them)

Duke of Hell: At 20th level, a pit fiend has surpassed the normal hierarchy of infernal forms and become a unique entity. From now on, he can multiclass into any monster class as if he possessed the Monster Hybrid feat. If he already possessed the Monster Hybrid feat, he may trade it for any other feat for which he meets the prerequisites.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: oslecamo on July 16, 2012, 09:48:18 AM
That sounds like a pretty cool idea, but first I'd rather  actually get at least one  whole "chain" of promotions ready before adding that ability. I see you've already started working on the Abishai (will comment them later), so will need a Lemure,  Horned Devil, Amnizu and Paeliron, wee... Well, it's been some time since I've done some infernals. :P
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: VennDygrem on July 17, 2012, 02:31:35 AM
I wrote up what I think to be an improved version of the Tauric Creature class, but don't want to compound/complicate matters by posting it either in the original's thread or here on its own. Should I just simply keep it to myself? :/
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Bozwevial on July 17, 2012, 01:33:13 PM
I put together an early version of the invisible stalker today because I was bored at work. Not really sure of the etiquette involved, though. Do I just post it for critiquing?
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: VennDygrem on July 17, 2012, 02:11:57 PM
Yeah, post it up like the other classes. That's what the rest of us do anyway.  Osle can always delete it. :P
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: oslecamo on July 17, 2012, 02:37:24 PM
You can both post right away, that has the added benefit of other people geting to critique it as well.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Bozwevial on July 17, 2012, 04:13:02 PM
Invisible Stalker (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=6183) is up.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: littha on July 28, 2012, 07:29:38 PM
I hate to say this but something occurred to me about the wording on the Body abilities: You lose your racial traits and gain new traits but your creature type does not actually change. Nearly all of the monsters made with these classes end up targetable by humanoid only spells because their actual type remains what it used to be... Nor could you qualify for PRC/feats that require a specific type.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Jackinthegreen on July 28, 2012, 07:35:44 PM
Each monster entry says it is a certain type.  For example, the wording on the Ogre says:
"Features:
Ogre body: At first level, the Ogre loses all other racial bonuses, and gains giant traits (primarily low-light vision). It is a medium sized giant with a base speed of 30 feet and a natural armor bonus equal to his own Con modifier, plus darkvision 60 feet."
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: littha on July 28, 2012, 07:38:28 PM
Some of them are missing the latter clause. I will compile a list.

Air Elemental (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=527.0[/url)
Astral Stalker (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=535.msg0)
Entropic Reaper (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=697.msg0)
Brain in a Jar (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=559.msg0)
Bronze Dragon (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=951.msg0)
Brass Dragon (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=950.msg)
Blue Dragon (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=949.msg0)
Black Dragon (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=948.msg0#new) (also has a Subtype that does not exist.)
Lich (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=706.0)
Death Knight (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=705.0)
Fire Elemental (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1363.0)
Obsidian Dragon (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1055.0)
Crystal Dragon (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1054.0)
White Dragon (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1053.0)
Wing Dragon (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1052.0)
Styx Dragon (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1048.0)

List is incomplete, I only got through about 5 pages of classes before stopping so I would assume that all the dragon classes have this problem along with a lot of classes with a spoilered traits block (Undead/Construct) but not all of them.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: oslecamo on July 29, 2012, 03:10:08 PM
Fixed.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Jackinthegreen on August 18, 2012, 06:12:29 PM
Mind if I make a Krynn minotaur?
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: oslecamo on August 19, 2012, 08:12:56 PM
Isn't that LA 0 race already?

But ok if it fancies you, as long as you don't make it stronger than the actual minotaur.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Jackinthegreen on August 19, 2012, 08:42:56 PM
It is normally LA +0, but I'm making something of a prestige class for it.  The full lore behind then on Krynn is that they're pretty darn powerful and have bigger weapons, so it'll mostly come down to a level for powerful build on top of their usual bonuses with their stat adjustments turned into a plain +1 boost to str and con.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Sohala on September 07, 2012, 01:43:33 PM
How do these classes interact with inherited templates and racial variants? My first thought was you can throw them on like normal, but best to ask.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: oslecamo on September 08, 2012, 08:54:39 AM
Racial classes should be ok. They however were never planned to be combined with  "normal" templates and splatbook variants, so try it at your own risk.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Sohala on September 08, 2012, 01:01:35 PM
I doubt I would ever combine the racial classes with any "normal" template with a LA, but templates like racial variants, unseelie fey, dragonborn. Assumedly you either pick a race (with or without templates) and the feats monster-blooded and monster hybrid, or you just pick a racial class. Being the class is there 'race' the variant/templates could be applied to it? Though that brings up another question I suppose; what is lost when adding dragonborn after taking a level in a racial class?
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: oslecamo on September 08, 2012, 03:42:31 PM
The problem I have with racial variants is that there's simply a lot of power creep in that department. In particular Eberron material has a lot of sick stuff for dragons, usually trading little or even nothing for powerful bonus. Unseelie fey on the other hand would be an auto-pick for monster classes with lower HD and Cha-based. Morale penalty on all saves equal to your Cha bonus whitout saves of any kind? Seriously? You're gonna tear trough everything if you have any kind of Cha-based save-or-die. So I personally wouldn't allow it, altough some people with love for really high powered games may.

As for dragonborn, I'll be honest and say I have no idea how it would work. Ok, tecnically it would strip you of all your cool racial abilities except stat bonus, but that's kinda crippling.

Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Sohala on September 08, 2012, 04:44:59 PM
Sovereign archtypes (:puke), they make for nice fluff and maybe npcs, I meant more of the UA and Dragon 306 variants. Unseelie was my first thought, how about amphibious instead?
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: oslecamo on September 10, 2012, 07:21:52 AM
-2 Dex for aquatic subtype right? It should be fine I guess. It's more of a case-by-case basis.

Also, added new FAQ entry clarifying that any tricks to gain extra HD don't count towards HD-based abilities.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: sirpercival on September 15, 2012, 07:12:05 PM
I wonder how difficult it would be to make summary compilations for these classes.  For example, here are all the classes which stack for spellcasting, and these have their own progressions.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Merchant on September 17, 2012, 12:52:36 AM
Sorry. Wrong thread.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: oslecamo on September 17, 2012, 11:25:07 AM
I wonder how difficult it would be to make summary compilations for these classes.  For example, here are all the classes which stack for spellcasting, and these have their own progressions.
Considering there's over 300 of them done so far, it won't be exactly easy.

It would be useful tough, and if someone made the initial compilation effort, I could then keep updating new entries myself.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: sirpercival on September 17, 2012, 12:22:47 PM
Well, what kinds of information would other people like summarized?  If I'm going to compile this stuff, I'd rather only make one pass through the classes.

My thoughts are:
~Spellcasting stacking
~Separate casting or martial progression
~Level 1 & final stat boosts

Any others?
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: FireInTheSky on September 17, 2012, 09:46:34 PM
What about general party roles/archetypes?  For those that can be categorized anyway...
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: oslecamo on September 18, 2012, 06:30:23 PM
A couple other sugestions
-Total levels of each class.
-Bab, HD and skill points per level.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Daedroth on September 18, 2012, 07:18:23 PM
Yo can use tags "Morph Bark Homebrew Compendium"-style like

[Number]: Number of leves of this class
Example:
Red Dragon [20]

Divine/Arcane/Other Spellcaster : The Class is an actual spellcaster
Example:
Red dragon [Arcane Spellcaster]

Spellcasting Friendly: The Class has this ability:
Quote
If they multiclasses for an arcane/divince class they can count its Half-celestial levels as levels of that class for purposes of CL and for the purposes of learning new spells and geting new spell slots. So for example, a Half-celestial 3 who took 1 level of sorceror could choose to have CL 4, get 3 2nd level spell slots, 1 1st level spell slot, 1 2nd level spell known and 1 0th level spell known. it wouldn't get the spell knowns and spell slots of a sorceror 3 however. They would get the familiar ability, but half-celestial levels wouldn't count for it.
Example:
Storm Giant [Spellcasting Friendly]

Martial Adept: The class uses ToB Maneuvers
Example:
Nuclear Dragón [Martial Adept]

Tank: The class is good for tanks
Example:
Iron Golem [Tank]


So, we have the following examples
Red Dragon [20] [Arcane Spellcaster] [Tank]
Angel [23] [Divine Spellcaster] [Tank]
Storm Giant [13] [Spellcaster Friendly] [Tank]
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: sirpercival on September 18, 2012, 07:56:00 PM
I don't think that's quite as useful as what I was looking for.  My idea is to have easy access to a table of: here's everything with this quality and the variations on it... take a look through.  Yours is more: lemme look at this monster to see what its properties are.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: CDTalmas on September 19, 2012, 12:12:21 PM
Just out of curiosity... Would these function with Shapechange/Polymorph-type effects and/or spells?  Would a normal humanoid be able to, essentially, replace his character levels with levels of monster up to CL HD?  Or maybe a 1-for-1 HD swap?  I've oft wondered how it would function, if at all.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: oslecamo on September 19, 2012, 12:18:53 PM
To be honest I never tought of it. All the monsters around here that have polymorph/shapechange are suposed to work with the "normal" monsters.

If anything, I would say that "swaping levels" would be the way to go, and keep in check that polymorph doesn't grant Su abilities, and neither it or Shapechange grant Special abilities. As for 1-for-1 HD swap, that would be borked with monsters that get excess HD or your typical pimped bard. This is all on the top of my head tough.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: CDTalmas on September 19, 2012, 12:54:05 PM
To be honest I never tought of it. All the monsters around here that have polymorph/shapechange are suposed to work with the "normal" monsters.

If anything, I would say that "swaping levels" would be the way to go, and keep in check that polymorph doesn't grant Su abilities, and neither it or Shapechange grant Special abilities. As for 1-for-1 HD swap, that would be borked with monsters that get excess HD or your typical pimped bard. This is all on the top of my head tough.

That's one of the reasons I was oft so adamant about whether abilities were "Ex, Sp, or Su."  As is, I use many of these monster races as NPCs for the group to fight.  Works out wonders, though I try (key word: try) to avoid the SoD effects.  Having a level 16 character drop that you've had from before class levels kinda pisses people off.

I figure a nice balancing mechanism for the whole "bonus HD from Bard" thing is that they're simply just that:  hit points.  I'm not sure about the intent of the designers, but I don't think they were meant to stack with caster levels or other such "level-based" options.

Plainly put, I like the idea of Polymorph and/or Shapechange transforming one into a monster race class.  I could easily see level substitution working and, to balance things out, replacing all previous abilities with the race class's except the ability to change back to your normal form.  Maybe an HD cap.  Alter Self could still be restricted to humanoids of up to 5 HD (meaning that all race-class abilities that have an HD requirement of 6 or higher are not gained), Polymorph could be limited to 1/2 your CL or HD, whichever is less beneficial (assuming you have both), and Shapechange could simply be up to CL or HD (again, whichever would be less beneficial).  Thoughts?

PS.  And just to clarify, you BECOME the race-class.  No "I keep my spells and can cast them while in the new form" stuffs.  Equipment-wise, well... People will find ways to keep their equipment going with wilding clasps or asking party members to hold them while they change (assuming the equipment isn't wearable in the new form).  Wouldn't function too heavily on that aspect.  Obviously you keep your skills, hit points, feats, ability scores, etc.  You might, however, lose your old race's ability changes (the old +2/-2) and replace it with the bonuses of the race-class.

[Edit]One thing I forgot to mention is that you CAN keep your spells if the creature normally gains access to them... but only up to the level that the creature would gain access to.  A dragon, for example, of 12 HD, would gain access to fourth level spells and below.  You wouldn't lose your previous spells but just don't have access to them temporarily.[/Edit]
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: oslecamo on September 21, 2012, 12:51:29 PM
You seem to have pretty tought out, would you mind condensating it in a "fixed" Polymorph and Shapechange spells aimed at working with monster classes? I would then add a link to them in the FAQ.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: CDTalmas on September 22, 2012, 01:38:41 PM
Changes to Alter Self, Polymorph, Polymorph any Object, and Shapechange in regards to Monster Race Classes:

Alter Self
Transmutation
Level:    Brd 2, Sor/Wiz 2
Components:    V, S, F
Casting Time:    1 standard action
Range:    Personal
Target:    You
Duration:    10 min./level (D)

You change your form into a similar one to your own.  If you are a humanoid, you may change into a different humanoid.  If you are a magical beast, you may change into a different magical beast.  If you are a quadruped, you may only change into other quadrupeds and so on and so forth.  You lose all class levels and racial bonuses/abilities and gain a number of class levels of the new form equal to your HD - 2 or CL - 2, whichever is lower (maximum 5 HD, minimum 1 HD).  You retain your own hit points, alignment, ability scores, skills, feats, and equipment (if the new form is capable of holding it; it melds into your new form otherwise).  You gain the creature's saves, BAB, type (and subtype, if applicable), movement modes and class abilities.  If the new form does not have enough levels to cover the difference (ie, Wizard 5 to Drow 1), you do not gain any other monster levels but you do get the benefits of having up to your limit in HD (you would gain Web Path abilities up to 5 HD if you are a Wizard 7, meaning Deadly Aim for the Assassin Web Path, but not Defense Pierce, which is a 10 HD ability and beyond the scope of the 5 HD cap, even if you are a higher level Wizard).  If the creature would gain ability score bonuses, add those to your character at the appropriate levels/HD.  You lose your race's ability score changes due to temporarily losing your race.

You also lose access to your spellcasting ability, as the Tenser's Transformation spell.  The only exception to this is if the resulting creature has spellcasting ability, you regain access to your own spells up to the maximum level of spells that creature could cast.  Again, a Wizard 7 turning into a Drow 1 and taking the Dark Mage Web Path would gain access up to 3rd level spells but not beyond; the 5 HD cap is still present.  This applies even if the spellcasting is of a different variety (such as Divine spells or Psionic manifestations whille being an Arcane caster).

Changing back from the new creature to your original form is a move action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity.  Doing so ends the spell.  Just as the original spell, you may delegate minor attributes of the physical form such as skin and hair color, physique, or even scars or tattoos.  These must fall within the norms for the creature in question.  If you utilize this spell to create a disguise, you gain a +10 circumstance bonus on your disguise check.

You may not utilize this spell to gain access to Prestige Monster Race Class levels (any creature marked with a prerequisite is considered a Prestige Monster Race Class level) nor any templates.  It is highly recommended that you have a stat block crafted and readied before utilizing this spell for the DM's sanity and your own.  The DM may rule that without a stat block already drafted, the spell fails.

Focus:  A clay model of the type (Animal, Magical Beast, etc.) and subtype (Good, Evil, Fire, etc.) of the form to be turned into, mixed with diamond dust worth at least (HD^2 * 50) GP.  You may add more clay and diamond dust to increase the amount of HD available but are still limited as per the spell.


Polymorph
Transmutation
Level:    Sor/Wiz 4
Components:    V, S, F
Casting Time:    1 standard action
Range:    Touch
Target:    Willing living creature touched
Duration:    1 min./level (D)
Saving Throw:    None
Spell Resistance:    No

This spell functions as Alter Self with the following exceptions:  Your HD limit raises to 10 and you may change into forms that are different from your own (except for gaseous or incorporeal creatures).  You are still relegated to CL - 2 or HD - 2, whichever is lower.  This spell is only usable on willing targets.  You still may not assume prestige levels nor templates, even if your CL or HD exceed the new creature's.

Focus:  A clay model of the type (Animal, Magical Beast, etc.) and subtype (Good, Evil, Fire, etc.) of the form to be turned into, mixed with diamond dust worth at least (HD^2 * 50) GP.  You may add more clay and diamond dust to increase the amount of HD available but are still limited as per the spell.


Polymorph Any Object
Transmutation
Level:    Sor/Wiz 8, Trickery 8
Components:    V, S, F
Casting Time:    1 standard action
Range:    Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Target:    One creature, or one nonmagical object of up to 100 cu. ft./level
Duration:    See text
Saving Throw:    Fortitude negates (object); see text
Spell Resistance:    Yes (object)

This spell functions as normal but can also be used to assume the form of a race class.  The target gains class levels equal to CL -2 or HD - 2, whichever is lower (maximum 15 HD).  It otherwise functions as Polymorph, with the duration based upon the difference chart.  Creating a creature out of stone or any other material does not automatically put it under your control, nor is it automatically friendly to you.  Treat it as a newly summoned NPC without a master that will act according to its alignment and/or natural instincts.

Casting this spell a second time causes the first effect to end and the spell to be determined as if you are your normal race and class.

Focus:  A clay model of the type (Animal, Magical Beast, etc.) and subtype (Good, Evil, Fire, etc.) of the form to be turned into, mixed with diamond dust worth at least (HD^2 * 50) GP.  You may add more clay and diamond dust to increase the amount of HD available but are still limited as per the spell.


Shapechange
Transmutation
Level:    Animal 9, Drd 9, Sor/Wiz 9
Components:    V, S, F
Casting Time:    1 standard action
Range:    Personal
Target:    You
Duration:    10 min./level (D)

This spell functions as Polymorph with the following exceptions:  You may now assume gaseous and incorporeal forms and, as a swift action, you may shift between any number of forms as often as you like over the duration of the spell.  Also, your limit is now equal to your CL - 2 or HD - 2, whichever is less (there is no maximum HD).  Also, excess HD can now be covered with prestige classes and/or templates.

Focus:  A clay model of the type (Animal, Magical Beast, etc.) and subtype (Good, Evil, Fire, etc.) of the form to be turned into, mixed with diamond dust worth at least (HD^2 * 50) GP.  You may add more clay and diamond dust to increase the amount of HD available but are still limited as per the spell.  For each race class changed into, you must have an appropriate model.

For all intents and purposes, HD is calculated as character level minus LA and is not affected by any ability that raises or lowers a character's hit dice or level, such as a bard's music or enervation-type effects.

Please, PLEASE review this and critique it before linking to it.  I think I've covered most of the bases but may have forgotten a few key details.  Yes, I did leave out the whole Ex abilities, Sp abilities, and Su abilities from the normal restrictions on the spell.  I believe that when you're trading casting power for raw physical power or other-ability power, you're giving away a lot for some more situational benefits.

[Edit]Put in a small tweak to Shapechange that I'd forgotten.  Namely the prestige classes and templates.[/Edit]

[Edit2]Changed limits to HD/CL - 2 for more power but still balanced.[/Edit2]

[Edit3]Clarified that HD adjustments from sources other than class levels do not affect how strong a creature you can become.[/Edit3]

[Edit4]Modified Alter Self to specify that regaining spells is based on YOUR OWN SPELLS.[/Edit4]

[Edit5]Added a focus with a cost to all spells, though this may change.[/Edit5]

[Edit6]Modified focus descriptions.[/Edit6]
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: oslecamo on September 22, 2012, 05:33:02 PM
-I would also change the cap to your HD-2 or CL-2, whichever's lower. Scales somewhat better, and doesn't tempt players to just cheese their CL to the sky. Apply that cap also to shapechange. being able to quickly swap between forms and picking templates is already good enough if you ask me.

-"but can also be used to assume the form of a race class"? Eeerr, pretty much every class around here is a race class already :psyduck
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: CDTalmas on September 22, 2012, 05:37:58 PM
-I would also change the cap to your HD-2 or CL-2, whichever's lower. Scales somewhat better, and doesn't tempt players to just cheese their CL to the sky. Apply that cap also to shapechange. being able to quickly swap between forms and picking templates is already good enough if you ask me.

-"but can also be used to assume the form of a race class"? Eeerr, pretty much every class around here is a race class already :psyduck

In regards to the first comment, are you referencing Shapechange or ALL the polymorph spells?  Being at 1/2 CL (read Caster Level) is rather painful for the lower level spells.  Even at 15th level with PAO, you're suffering at 2/3 efficiency.  Even if you stack crazy amounts of CL bonus, you're still limited by your HD (a set amount which cannot be improved by bards).  As for Shapechange, isn't capping at 17-20 HD already pretty hard to bypass?

As for the second comment, PAO can transform wood to stone, metal to dust, creatures to practically any material, etc.  That's what I was referencing.  It also enables you to turn material into creatures out of the MM (aka, non race classes).  Was just clarifying that the spell still exists as normal but that race classes are options now too.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: oslecamo on September 22, 2012, 07:16:13 PM
Here's my problem with it being CL 1/2.

Level 4-get 2 monster levels (behind 2 levels)
Level 10-get 5 monster levels (behind 5 levels, stuff like cloudkill hurts badly).
Level 15-get 10 monster levels (behind 5 levels, hmm, good luck if anyone uses something like Blasphemy or Holy Word).

Also your shapechange right now is capped at CL/HD, meaning at level 17  you can basically fully swap your levels for any monster class, and then change as a swift action, and that's simply too damn versatile whitout actually sacrificing any raw power(you stay on the same level).

So yes, even whitout bard shenigans it is bad if you can fully swap your levels for monster levels, which means nobody actually plays a monster when they can play a caster and then cherry pick whatever monster class they want to play today whitout any real sacrifice.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: CDTalmas on September 22, 2012, 11:48:19 PM
Here's my problem with it being CL 1/2.

Level 4-get 2 monster levels (behind 2 levels)
Level 10-get 5 monster levels (behind 5 levels, stuff like cloudkill hurts badly).
Level 15-get 10 monster levels (behind 5 levels, hmm, good luck if anyone uses something like Blasphemy or Holy Word).

Also your shapechange right now is capped at CL/HD, meaning at level 17  you can basically fully swap your levels for any monster class, and then change as a swift action, and that's simply too damn versatile whitout actually sacrificing any raw power(you stay on the same level).

So yes, even whitout bard shenigans it is bad if you can fully swap your levels for monster levels, which means nobody actually plays a monster when they can play a caster and then cherry pick whatever monster class they want to play today whitout any real sacrifice.

Alright, but here's the problem that I see with Shapechange:  It's already broken for EXACTLY that reason (but regular monsters instead of monster classes).  And druids especially make good use of it; thank you Natural Spell >:).   At HD -2, you don't make as much use of it as you could... but I am seeing the fall-backs of the previous polymorph spells being so limited.  Should I simply set in the previous caps of 5 HD, 15 HD, and full HD?  I want them to be useful, obviously, and to not fall behind the party in terms of power, but the monster races are upper Tier 2 (practically lower Tier 1) and are rather powerful even at lower levels/HD.  Mayhaps a combo:  Alter Self -- 5 HD cap, full CL.  Polymorph -- 10 HD cap (at -2), full CL.  PAO -- 15 HD cap (at -2), full CL.  Shapechange -- HD cap (at -2), full CL.  All of them are limited by HD -2, except for Alter Self which is already a pretty weak choice in comparison to the others.  You do also lose your casting ability for a good number of creatures... but I think I do like the sound of yours better, now that I've let it sink in a bit.  It grants a bit more power than 1/2 CL and even 3/4 CL by simply putting the cap into place so the spells are useful for combat, utility, and even social situations without going overboard and drunk with power.  And no bard shenanigans to increase the HD cap.  I'll edit above.

Please critique further if there are other issues, grammar or otherwise!
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: oslecamo on September 23, 2012, 04:38:02 PM
Alright, but here's the problem that I see with Shapechange:  It's already broken for EXACTLY that reason (but regular monsters instead of monster classes).  And druids especially make good use of it; thank you Natural Spell >:).   At HD -2, you don't make as much use of it as you could...
That's part of the point, nerfing what's possible the most borked spell in the whole of D&D.

but I am seeing the fall-backs of the previous polymorph spells being so limited.  Should I simply set in the previous caps of 5 HD, 15 HD, and full HD?  I want them to be useful, obviously, and to not fall behind the party in terms of power, but the monster races are upper Tier 2 (practically lower Tier 1) and are rather powerful even at lower levels/HD.
Seriously, why do people keep saying that? I can kinda understand when it's a monster that has actual 9th level casting or can copy abilities.

But something like the Wild Hunt? Yes, it hits hard, has some minions and mobility. It still can't hide in personal planes and bind personal armies while dominating your mind like  a basic sorceror can.

Protip:just because it has good combat stats don't put you near the top. Having "lol no" tricks puts you near the top. Having (nearly) all "lol no" tricks puts you in the actual top.

  Mayhaps a combo:  Alter Self -- 5 HD cap, full CL.  Polymorph -- 10 HD cap (at -2), full CL.  PAO -- 15 HD cap (at -2), full CL.  Shapechange -- HD cap (at -2), full CL.  All of them are limited by HD -2, except for Alter Self which is already a pretty weak choice in comparison to the others. 
You can cast it at 3rd level. As you level up it's extra cheap in either spell slots or wands/scrolls. Of course it shouldn't keep up with spells multiple times its level.

Anyway it seems like your latest version indeed keeps it at HD-2, so nevermind that. Seems good as it is.

You do also lose your casting ability for a good number of creatures... but I think I do like the sound of yours better, now that I've let it sink in a bit.  It grants a bit more power than 1/2 CL and even 3/4 CL by simply putting the cap into place so the spells are useful for combat, utility, and even social situations without going overboard and drunk with power.  And no bard shenanigans to increase the HD cap.  I'll edit above.

It seems to still be lacking the bard clarification.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: CDTalmas on September 23, 2012, 05:41:44 PM
Added HD change clarification.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: oslecamo on September 25, 2012, 05:06:17 AM
A couple  details I was tinkering about the "new" polymorph line:

-Clarify that if you turn into a monster with casting, you use your own spells prepared (or spell slots/known for spontaneous casters). This means turning into monsters doesn't "recharge" your spells neither lets you cherry pick a full new list.
-The new polymorph spells should demand some kind of "focus", one for each "monster build" you want to turn into. For example, drow path of shadows and drow raider would demand two diferent focus. Not too expensive, but expensive enough that you cannot afford to pick from hundreds of forms at any moment. Something along the lines of (monster level) squared x 50 GP.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: CDTalmas on September 25, 2012, 03:04:49 PM
A couple  details I was tinkering about the "new" polymorph line:

-Clarify that if you turn into a monster with casting, you use your own spells prepared (or spell slots/known for spontaneous casters). This means turning into monsters doesn't "recharge" your spells neither lets you cherry pick a full new list.
-The new polymorph spells should demand some kind of "focus", one for each "monster build" you want to turn into. For example, drow path of shadows and drow raider would demand two diferent focus. Not too expensive, but expensive enough that you cannot afford to pick from hundreds of forms at any moment. Something along the lines of (monster level) squared x 50 GP.

I'm fine with the clarification of spells but the expense option is rather rude... You may as well ask for a new polymorph spell for each form.  You're still limited to one transformation per spell (sans Shapechange which is a special case and/or broken anyways).  The polymorph spells are supposed to be versatile (and yes, I know they have balance issues).
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: oslecamo on September 25, 2012, 05:11:00 PM
If it demanded actually a spell for each case, then it would be actually rude, because spellcasters whitout full lists wouldn't be able to afford more than one or two forms and even wizards have so many slots to prepare diferent versions (not to mention time and money to write them down).

Anyway my point was, there's a diference between "versatile", like say, summon monster/nature's ally, and "I have an answer to every problem and then more", like, say, planar binding/ally. One is  a good spell that sees common use, the other is a can of worms that most people don't even bother to use anymore because they know they'll get books thrown at their faces.


Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: CDTalmas on September 25, 2012, 06:58:35 PM
Should I assume that when you say "monster level", you're referring to the maximum level that monster can attain?  Before or after prestige levels?  A level 20 critter would cost (20 x 20) x 50 = 20,000 GP.  A Xixecal, even on the lower end of the scale, would cost... (36 x 36) x 50 = 64,800 GP.  A Hecatoncheires, not that you'd be seeing much of those pre-epic, would cost (57 x 57) x 50 = 162,450 GP.  A Phoenix would be around 28,800 GP.  A Transmutation specialist would spend a pretty penny in his line of work.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: oslecamo on September 26, 2012, 06:45:49 AM
It's the number of levels you want to turn into. So if you're just 18th level, you can turn into a 18th level Xixecal and pay only 18 levels.

Speaking of which, add option to "upgrade" your focus when you level up.

If you still think it's too expensive, maybe 1/2 or even 1/5 the current price. A 20th level character still has hundreds of thousands of gold to spend after all, so a 20th level form should cost in the order of thousands of gold at least.

Also transmutation has a lot more tricks than just the polymorph lines.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: CDTalmas on September 26, 2012, 03:27:46 PM
The option to "upgrade" the focus is an absolute necessity that I am glad you added.  I'll see if I can work some wordy magic and give some good definitive explanations involving the critters.  I don't suppose you'd want to do a "one focus for outsiders, one focus for aberrations, one focus for dragons, etc."?  There are a wide variety of critter types (at least 15, last I checked, and that's not including subtypes) and requiring you to have them up to 20's or more is at least 20,000 GP per.  Times 15, that's a good 300,000 GP you're investing and, again, is not including subtypes (outsiders and humanoids have quite a few). Now, they might average out a bit (how many aquatic humanoids are there with 20 HD, after all), but I think the costs could work a little more in the balanced aspect, especially when dealing with outsiders.

Also, how did you want to deal with prestiges and/or templates for Shapechange?  I imagine templates would be the toughest of them, with prestige simply being tacked on to the base race.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: bobthe6th on September 27, 2012, 12:56:26 PM
any reason there are no abyssals?  The demons seem sorely lacking. 
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: oslecamo on September 27, 2012, 01:17:31 PM
Demons, devils and yugoloths are all grouped under the generic infernal tag. Those are the demons done so far:


Balor (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1820.msg18298#msg18298)
Death Drinker (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1822.msg18301#msg18301)
Jovoc (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=7293.msg111678#msg111678)
Lilitu (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1104.msg7664#msg7664)
Marilith (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1829.msg18316#msg18316)
Succubus (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1104.msg7662#msg7662)

Yes, there's more devils done, but what can I say, they've been requested more, as simple as that.

The option to "upgrade" the focus is an absolute necessity that I am glad you added.  I'll see if I can work some wordy magic and give some good definitive explanations involving the critters.  I don't suppose you'd want to do a "one focus for outsiders, one focus for aberrations, one focus for dragons, etc."?  There are a wide variety of critter types (at least 15, last I checked, and that's not including subtypes) and requiring you to have them up to 20's or more is at least 20,000 GP per.  Times 15, that's a good 300,000 GP you're investing and, again, is not including subtypes (outsiders and humanoids have quite a few). Now, they might average out a bit (how many aquatic humanoids are there with 20 HD, after all), but I think the costs could work a little more in the balanced aspect, especially when dealing with outsiders.
Sounds nice at first glance, however it isn't that fair when you notice details like there's butloads of outsiders and very few animals.

And it just feels unfair that one simple focus allows you to turn into an angel or infernal or giant frog (all outsiders), but you need multiple focus to switch between bear, antropormhic bear and and worgh (animal, monstruous humanoid, magic beast)

Plus, notice I said one focus per monster build. Because some monsters around here are just a lot more versatile than others.

Also, how did you want to deal with prestiges and/or templates for Shapechange?  I imagine templates would be the toughest of them, with prestige simply being tacked on to the base race.
No templates that haven't been converted to prcs allowed. Done. :p
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: CDTalmas on September 27, 2012, 01:25:20 PM
Demons, devils and yugoloths are all grouped under the generic infernal tag. Those are the demons done so far:


Balor (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1820.msg18298#msg18298)
Death Drinker (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1822.msg18301#msg18301)
Jovoc (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=7293.msg111678#msg111678)
Lilitu (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1104.msg7664#msg7664)
Marilith (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1829.msg18316#msg18316)
Succubus (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1104.msg7662#msg7662)

Yes, there's more devils done, but what can I say, they've been requested more, as simple as that.

The option to "upgrade" the focus is an absolute necessity that I am glad you added.  I'll see if I can work some wordy magic and give some good definitive explanations involving the critters.  I don't suppose you'd want to do a "one focus for outsiders, one focus for aberrations, one focus for dragons, etc."?  There are a wide variety of critter types (at least 15, last I checked, and that's not including subtypes) and requiring you to have them up to 20's or more is at least 20,000 GP per.  Times 15, that's a good 300,000 GP you're investing and, again, is not including subtypes (outsiders and humanoids have quite a few). Now, they might average out a bit (how many aquatic humanoids are there with 20 HD, after all), but I think the costs could work a little more in the balanced aspect, especially when dealing with outsiders.
Sounds nice at first glance, however it isn't that fair when you notice details like there's butloads of outsiders and very few animals.

And it just feels unfair that one simple focus allows you to turn into an angel or infernal or giant frog (all outsiders), but you need multiple focus to switch between bear, antropormhic bear and and worgh (animal, monstruous humanoid, magic beast)

Plus, notice I said one focus per monster build. Because some monsters around here are just a lot more versatile than others.

Also, how did you want to deal with prestiges and/or templates for Shapechange?  I imagine templates would be the toughest of them, with prestige simply being tacked on to the base race.
No templates that haven't been converted to prcs allowed. Done. :p

Again, think of the Subtypes.  That would be "Outsider (Good), Outsider (Evil), Outsider (Chaotic)" and so on.  You might even have to combine them (ie. for outsiders that are both good and chaotic).
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: oslecamo on September 28, 2012, 06:25:16 AM
Hmm, ok, I guess that's a nice compromise.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: CDTalmas on September 28, 2012, 01:07:48 PM
Done.  Once it's been reviewed, I'll remove the editing marks and comments and you'll have a good link for the polymorph spells.  Or I could just copypasta to the FAQ post.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: oslecamo on October 01, 2012, 05:04:58 PM
Well, they seem good enough now, altough I would like some 3rd voice in this matter.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Xet on October 01, 2012, 07:26:32 PM
Hello,

In the last few days I found the work here and what was in GitP and instantly loved it. I have read as much as I could to make sure any questions I asked were not duplicates and I have versed myself in the rules the best I can.

Now for my question. It revolves around spell casting. I like the rules in place and I also like the way you bothered to put in spell progression for casters that stop at level X in a monster class and carry on as a spellcaster allowing CL20.

Before I go on I will give an example Movanic Deva 9/Cleric 11. Now this having a caster level of 20 rocks I only want to understand the reasoning in allowing spell progression from the point where you leave the monster class. Meaning the above deva has no level 0-1-2 spells.

I get it will get 9th level spells and lose 9 effective Cleric levels meaning it has Miracle etc it just seems well..... messy. I could get them getting spells as a cleric 11 (6th level spells) with a cl of 20 even though you lose the better spells as it follows a natural progression. I could understand if at any level the deva 9/ cleric 11 had missed it still got bonus spells as if it had 0 spells for that level as well.

It does seem balanced just very odd how a monster 19/caster 1 gets 9th level spells just no spells for at least spell level 1-6. Allowing the above to cast as a 11th level cleric looks clean with a CL20 but misses the 9th level spells.

I don't really have a "fix" (do not think it is inherently broken) just maybe any spell levels where the monster gets 0 spells for skipping it still gets bonus spells.

A PRC that's entry is ability to cast 2nd level spells that may not have a 2nd lvl sla after a monster is full grown becomes un-enterable for a example. I know you can multiclass I just dont see full continuity.

Just my thoughts really it is no way a knock on everyones epic work.

Edit: Not sure if this goes here but is Tongues an unbalancing ability if applied to the Movanic Deva class progression being a Celestrial?
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: CDTalmas on October 01, 2012, 09:07:50 PM
@Xet

Just on a whim, it could be that the monster's blood carries a prodigal status that allows it access to powerful magics.  Monsters in the game don't have limiters and so their "scale" switched to a different access point.  I would think, however, that an entry level requirement is looking for a "low end of spells," not just a "2nd level ability."  Worse comes to worst, take a 2nd level spell and use a higher level slot to cast it.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Xet on October 02, 2012, 05:51:43 AM
I like the way you put that across - The monsters are intrinsically linked to magic so a start point above level 1 spells is as natural for them as a standard race.

Using a slot of a higher level to cast the spell is clever, one i never thought of.

Do they still get bonus spells? the chart shows "0" spells and not "-" spells. This may just be a typo but best to clarify.

I also understand that the mechanics are there to make sure that cl=hd more than what spells you can cast and that not all monsters (like the Movanic Deva) are meant to be casters. I also toyed with allowing it 1 spell slot/known (for sorcs/favoreds etc) per level missed but that went to far from these guidelines and I like the work so i don't want to homebrew already good homebrew guidelines.

This raises the question that if they do get bonus spells which i understand they do, how does that pan out for sorcs etc that bonus spells/day are useless w/o also having at least one spell known.

The raw suggests that bonus spells are not included and I am not arrogant enough to think it was overlooked but if that is the case maybe it should be added to the FAQ or something?

it gets a bit more confusing if you went Diva 2/cleric 1 and alternated every level till diva was done as apart from 0 you would have every spell level (and bonus spells). At 20 you would have the same abilities as the original diva just more spells.

I hope this makes sense and I am not bad mouthing the system =)
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: oslecamo on October 02, 2012, 10:22:17 AM
Edit: Not sure if this goes here but is Tongues an unbalancing ability if applied to the Movanic Deva class progression being a Celestrial?

Ack missed that! Monavic now gets tongues permanent effect at 5th level in the SLAs table.

Do they still get bonus spells? the chart shows "0" spells and not "-" spells. This may just be a typo but best to clarify.
You get the bonus spells from high mental scores, clarified.

I also understand that the mechanics are there to make sure that cl=hd more than what spells you can cast and that not all monsters (like the Movanic Deva) are meant to be casters. I also toyed with allowing it 1 spell slot/known (for sorcs/favoreds etc) per level missed but that went to far from these guidelines and I like the work so i don't want to homebrew already good homebrew guidelines.

This raises the question that if they do get bonus spells which i understand they do, how does that pan out for sorcs etc that bonus spells/day are useless w/o also having at least one spell known.
Well for one sorcerors do keep learning low level spells as they grow up (learn the last 1st level spell at 7th level, the last 2nd level spell at 11th level, etc) . Sorcerors also get a bunch of feats here and there for burning spell slots for other abilities.

The raw suggests that bonus spells are not included and I am not arrogant enough to think it was overlooked but if that is the case maybe it should be added to the FAQ or something?
Done.

it gets a bit more confusing if you went Diva 2/cleric 1 and alternated every level till diva was done as apart from 0 you would have every spell level (and bonus spells). At 20 you would have the same abilities as the original diva just more spells.
Yes, that's kinda true, but that's also kinda how tome of battle works now. Depending on how you multiclass you can end up with a lot of higher level maneuvers that you would otherwise.

I hope this makes sense and I am not bad mouthing the system =)
Well your grammar may be somewhat wonky but you seem to be offering constructive criticism overall.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: FireInTheSky on October 02, 2012, 12:46:13 PM
I wonder how difficult it would be to make summary compilations for these classes.  For example, here are all the classes which stack for spellcasting, and these have their own progressions.
Considering there's over 300 of them done so far, it won't be exactly easy.

It would be useful tough, and if someone made the initial compilation effort, I could then keep updating new entries myself.
Well, what kinds of information would other people like summarized?  If I'm going to compile this stuff, I'd rather only make one pass through the classes.

My thoughts are:
~Spellcasting stacking
~Separate casting or martial progression
~Level 1 & final stat boosts

Any others?
What about general party roles/archetypes?  For those that can be categorized anyway...
A couple other sugestions
-Total levels of each class.
-Bab, HD and skill points per level.
My idea is to have easy access to a table of: here's everything with this quality and the variations on it... take a look through.


Now that the boards support sortable tables, that's probably the easiest way to do this.  If no one has a problem with it, I can start tackling this.

Possible Setup: 2 tables.  1st one has roll information:
Name - Type - Total Levels - BAB - Good Save(s) - HD - Skill Points - Lvl 1 stat boost - Total Stat boost

2nd one has role information:
Name - Party Role - Spellcasting* Type - Stacking Spellcasting* Levels - Separate Spellcasting* Progression - Other
      *Spellcasting in this case would actually be: Arcane/Divine/Psionic/Invoker/Martial/Whatever


Osle, if I do something like this, I'll probably put each table in a separate post in your Index thread.  Cool?
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Xet on October 02, 2012, 01:52:22 PM
Well your grammar may be somewhat wonky but you seem to be offering constructive criticism overall.

Sorry about the grammar. I was never good at English and I am English XD

Thank you for listening to what I had to say. I really like the work and it addresses much of what really bugged me about LA and the whole "you may not play this race as it is not a human or an elf and if you do you will be crippled".

Your work is brilliant and I will be using the material.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: oslecamo on October 02, 2012, 07:20:36 PM
If possible let me know how it goes!

Now that the boards support sortable tables, that's probably the easiest way to do this.  If no one has a problem with it, I can start tackling this.

Possible Setup: 2 tables.  1st one has roll information:
Name - Type - Total Levels - BAB - Good Save(s) - HD - Skill Points - Lvl 1 stat boost - Total Stat boost

2nd one has role information:
Name - Party Role - Spellcasting* Type - Stacking Spellcasting* Levels - Separate Spellcasting* Progression - Other
      *Spellcasting in this case would actually be: Arcane/Divine/Psionic/Invoker/Martial/Whatever


Osle, if I do something like this, I'll probably put each table in a separate post in your Index thread.  Cool?
Yes, go ahead if you're willing to do it.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: FireInTheSky on October 02, 2012, 09:34:24 PM
Now that the boards support sortable tables, that's probably the easiest way to do this.  If no one has a problem with it, I can start tackling this.

Possible Setup: 2 tables.  1st one has roll information:
Name - Type - Total Levels - BAB - Good Save(s) - HD - Skill Points - Lvl 1 stat boost - Total Stat boost

2nd one has role information:
Name - Party Role - Spellcasting* Type - Stacking Spellcasting* Levels - Separate Spellcasting* Progression - Other
      *Spellcasting in this case would actually be: Arcane/Divine/Psionic/Invoker/Martial/Whatever


Osle, if I do something like this, I'll probably put each table in a separate post in your Index thread.  Cool?
Yes, go ahead if you're willing to do it.

Sweet.  I'll get started on it.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: FireInTheSky on October 03, 2012, 01:31:18 AM
Osle, as I'm going through these, some of the links in the index bring you to posts that are lower down than the OP.  Do you want me to note those for you as I go along?  Or do you just want to leave it?  In the tables I'm making, I'm also going to have links to each page.

EDIT:  Most of them point to the topic.  Some of them point to the first post in the topic.  Some of them point to posts further down.  Some of them point to "topic={###}.new#new"   Does that mean it points to the newest post in that topic?
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Concerned Ninja Citizen on October 03, 2012, 02:21:04 AM
Is this ability:

Quote from: Oslecamo
In adition, if the [Monster Class] multiclasses into a casting class, he may count his [Monster Class] levels for purposes of casterl level and learning new spells and receiving new spell slots. So for example a [Monster Class] 3 wich took 1 level of sorceror could choose  to receive 3 2nd level spell slots and one 1st level spell slot, and knowing one 2nd level spell and one 0th level spell, casting them at CL 4. He wouldn't receive the spells known and spell slots of a sorceror 3 however.

Intended to interact with seperate casting Prcs?

Specifically, Ur-Priest.

If I'm reading this right you can go [Monsterclass] 5, Ur-Priest1 and get 1 lv3, 1 lv4, 1 lv5, and 0 lv6 spells. Is accessing lv5 and potentially lv6 spells at 6HD a problem?
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Xet on October 03, 2012, 07:46:28 AM
Hi,

In regards to flight speed is there any set pattern? Dragons move at 10ft/hd which seems logical. The Harpy gains a set speed of 80ft. The griffon starts at 40ft and hits 90ft (if i read it right before 20) with no cap. The air elemental has 5ft/hd meaning at 20 it hits the srd monsters speed of 100ft. Angels flight speed tend to be double land speed but the Movanic Deva is 10ft/hd.

Also do they cap at 20? or Ever? Flight is less broken the higher you go but 200ft a round that scales into epic is pretty good. I'm sure you could improved flyby at high level completely undetected and be so far away you never would be.

Would a set fly speed of HD x2 for normal mobs with wings make more sense with dragons and monsters with the air subtype keeping Xft/lvl?  Monsters with a set fly speed could still grow into it over their monster class.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: FireInTheSky on October 03, 2012, 01:51:41 PM
Oslecamo, as you can see, I posted the first little bit of the tables.

What do you think about spoilering the entire index (maybe 3 spoilers: Monsters, Templates, Other Stuff), so that people can easily see the tables below?
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: oslecamo on October 03, 2012, 04:31:37 PM
Osle, as I'm going through these, some of the links in the index bring you to posts that are lower down than the OP.  Do you want me to note those for you as I go along?  Or do you just want to leave it?  In the tables I'm making, I'm also going to have links to each page.

EDIT:  Most of them point to the topic.  Some of them point to the first post in the topic.  Some of them point to posts further down.  Some of them point to "topic={###}.new#new"   Does that mean it points to the newest post in that topic?
Hmm, I'm not sure. They're suposed to point to the first post, with the monster itself, but yes some seem to have gotten messed up. You point them, I'll fix them.

Is this ability:

Quote from: Oslecamo
In adition, if the [Monster Class] multiclasses into a casting class, he may count his [Monster Class] levels for purposes of casterl level and learning new spells and receiving new spell slots. So for example a [Monster Class] 3 wich took 1 level of sorceror could choose  to receive 3 2nd level spell slots and one 1st level spell slot, and knowing one 2nd level spell and one 0th level spell, casting them at CL 4. He wouldn't receive the spells known and spell slots of a sorceror 3 however.

Intended to interact with seperate casting Prcs?

Specifically, Ur-Priest.

If I'm reading this right you can go [Monsterclass] 5, Ur-Priest1 and get 1 lv3, 1 lv4, 1 lv5, and 0 lv6 spells. Is accessing lv5 and potentially lv6 spells at 6HD a problem?
That ability only works for casting classes, not casting prestige classes, so it doesn't stack with ur-priest or chameleon or other prcs that grant you casting out of nowhere.

Hi,

In regards to flight speed is there any set pattern? Dragons move at 10ft/hd which seems logical. The Harpy gains a set speed of 80ft. The griffon starts at 40ft and hits 90ft (if i read it right before 20) with no cap. The air elemental has 5ft/hd meaning at 20 it hits the srd monsters speed of 100ft. Angels flight speed tend to be double land speed but the Movanic Deva is 10ft/hd.

Also do they cap at 20? or Ever? Flight is less broken the higher you go but 200ft a round that scales into epic is pretty good. I'm sure you could improved flyby at high level completely undetected and be so far away you never would be.

Would a set fly speed of HD x2 for normal mobs with wings make more sense with dragons and monsters with the air subtype keeping Xft/lvl?  Monsters with a set fly speed could still grow into it over their monster class.
Meh, I'll admit it depends on my mood at the moment. For monsters with pretty big flying speeds I make it scaling and the exact method depends on how I'm feeling and other minor factors.

Anyway it's not that big of an issue if you ask me, as most battlefields don't really allow you to use very high movement speeds to begin with unless you're out in the open, so no I won't backtrack every monster with flying out there.

Oslecamo, as you can see, I posted the first little bit of the tables.

What do you think about spoilering the entire index (maybe 3 spoilers: Monsters, Templates, Other Stuff), so that people can easily see the tables below?
Spoiler your tables first. :p
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Xet on October 03, 2012, 04:39:28 PM
Meh, I'll admit it depends on my mood at the moment. For monsters with pretty big flying speeds I make it scaling and the exact method depends on how I'm feeling and other minor factors.

Anyway it's not that big of an issue if you ask me, as most battlefields don't really allow you to use very high movement speeds to begin with unless you're out in the open, so no I won't backtrack every monster with flying out there.

I didn't think It was an issue, more wondering if there was meant to be continuity or not. Everything else pretty much follows a set of rules unlike the flying progression. I was after a reason why it worked that way and I got one which is fine.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: FireInTheSky on October 03, 2012, 11:07:16 PM
Osle, as I'm going through these, some of the links in the index bring you to posts that are lower down than the OP.  Do you want me to note those for you as I go along?  Or do you just want to leave it?  In the tables I'm making, I'm also going to have links to each page.

EDIT:  Most of them point to the topic.  Some of them point to the first post in the topic.  Some of them point to posts further down.  Some of them point to "topic={###}.new#new"   Does that mean it points to the newest post in that topic?
Hmm, I'm not sure. They're suposed to point to the first post, with the monster itself, but yes some seem to have gotten messed up. You point them, I'll fix them.

Here's ones that need fixing so far: Air Elemental, Anaxim, Androsphynx, Angel of Decay, Ankheg, Anthro Animal

Also, Androsphynx has some inconsistency in spelling within the post (sphynx vs. sphinx), as well as some appearances of Gynosphynx.


Quote
Oslecamo, as you can see, I posted the first little bit of the tables.

What do you think about spoilering the entire index (maybe 3 spoilers: Monsters, Templates, Other Stuff), so that people can easily see the tables below?
Spoiler your tables first. :p

I asked you first.   :P  (next update will include spoilers) Your turn!
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Concerned Ninja Citizen on October 04, 2012, 12:27:44 AM
Quote from: Oslecamo
That ability only works for casting classes, not casting prestige classes, so it doesn't stack with ur-priest or chameleon or other prcs that grant you casting out of nowhere.

You might want to have the ability stipulate "casting base class" (in the FAQ at least, if it's too difficult to hunt down every instance) since a Prc is technically a "class" (as, for example, you can boost Ur-Priest casting with other Prcs which grant "+1 level of an existing class.")
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: oslecamo on October 05, 2012, 06:43:40 PM
Index cleaned up, FAQ updated.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: FireInTheSky on October 05, 2012, 11:39:32 PM
Aranea, Astral Stalker, Azer, Badger, Basilisk, Awakened Flail Snail, Awakened Gelatinous Cube, Awakened Monstrous Crab all need retargeting in the index.

See below.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Retrokinesis on October 07, 2012, 01:06:55 PM
Would you mind if I converted the Phantom template from MMV? It's basically a CR +2 "take this for incorporealness" template with a built-in balancing mechanism.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: CDTalmas on October 07, 2012, 11:15:32 PM
Anyone else care to view and comment on the polymorph line of spells used to get access to race classes?  LINK (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1215.msg112458#msg112458)
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: FireInTheSky on October 07, 2012, 11:18:14 PM
Anyone else care to view and comment on the polymorph line of spells used to get access to race classes?  LINK (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1215.msg112458#msg112458)

I would suggest splitting this off into its own thread.  That will make further discussion a little easier, and also, it will be cleaner for Oslecamo to link to in the Index/Extra Materials
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: FireInTheSky on October 09, 2012, 12:42:10 AM
Here's an updated version of the index. 
(click to show/hide)

Also, “Zelekhut” and “WereHydra” have broken pictures.


Code: [Select]
[size=6][b]Index[/b][/size]

This post contains the entire list of Base Monster Classes, Monster Prestige Classes, Templates, and Extra Material.
The following posts contain sortable tables with basic information about each class.

[b]Base Monster Races[/b]
[spoiler]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=273.0]Aasimar[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=274.0]Abeil[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=275.0]Aboleth[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=7344.0]Abrian[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=277.0]Achaierai[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=278.0]Aeon, Pleroma[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=527.0]Air Elemental[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=5158.0]Allip[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=7231.0]Al-mi'raj[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=528.0]Anaxim[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=529.0]Androsphynx[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=530.0]Angel of Decay[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=531.0]Ankheg, Awakened[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=532.0]Anthromorphic Animal[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=534.0]Aranea[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=535.0]Astral Stalker[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=5457.0]Avolakia[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=536.0]Azer[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=7302.0]Badger and Dire Badger, Awakened[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=5423.0]Barghest[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=556.0]Basilisk, Awakened[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=5376.0]Bear, Awakened[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2907.0]Behir[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=557.0]Beholder[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=5191.0]Black Ogrun[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2332.0]Black Rock Triskelion[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=558.0]Blink Dog[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=6343.0]Boar, Awakened[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=559.0]Brain in a jar[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=560.0]BugBear[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=6813.0]Carrionette[/url]
[b][color=blue]Celestials[/color][/b]
[spoiler]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=586.0]Angel (planetar/solar)[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=5410.0]Arcadian Avenger[/url] 
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=587.0]Astral Deva[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=590.0]Bralani[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=5439.0]Firre Eladrin[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=591.0]Ghaele Eladrin[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=592.0]Hound Archon[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=594.0]Lantern Archon[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=598.0]Leonal[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=600.0]Monavic Deva[/url]
[/spoiler]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=932.0]Centaur[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=933.0]Chaond[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=934.0]Chesire Cat[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=5121.0]Chimera[/url][i](Daedroth's version)[/i]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=5155.0]Chimera[/url] [i](Prime32's version)[/i]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=935.0]Choker[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=328.0]Cloaker[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=936.0]Coatl[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2413.0]Cockatrice[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=937.0]Concordant Killer[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=938.0]Conflagration Ooze[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=941.0]Daelkyr[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=942.0]Deadly Dancer[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=5498.0]Deathjack[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=696.0]Defacer[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=404.0]Derro[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=943.0]Djinni[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=944.0]Displacer Beast[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=945.0]Doppelganger[/url]
[color=orange][b]Draconians[/b][/color]
[spoiler]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=5278.msg79925#msg79925]Draconian, Aurak[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=5278.0]Draconian, Baaz[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=5278.msg76703#msg76703]Draconian, Bozak[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=5278.msg75831#msg75831]Draconian, Kapak[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=5278.msg77849#msg77849]Draconian, Sivak[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=5854.0]Draconian Noble, Frost[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=5854.msg85772#msg85772]Draconian Noble, Vapor[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=5854.msg85756#msg85756]Draconian Noble, Venom[/url]
[/spoiler]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1190.0]Dracotaur[/url]
[b][color=red]Dragons[/color][/b]
[spoiler]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1738.0]Battle Dragon[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=948.0]Black Dragon[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=949.0]Blue Dragon[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=950.0]Brass Dragon[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=951.0]Bronze Dragon[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=952.0]Copper Dragon[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1054.0]Crystal Dragon[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=953.0]Fang Dragon[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=954.0]Gold Dragon[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=955.0]Green Dragon[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=956.0]Hellfire Wyrm[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1055.0]Obsidian Dragon[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1042.0]Orange Dragon[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=5786.0]Naiadragon[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=6660.0]Nuclear Dragon[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1043.0]Purple Dragon[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1044.0]Pyroclastic Dragon[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1045.0]Red Dragon[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1626.0]Shadow Dragon[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1046.0]Silver Dragon[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1047.0]Song Dragon[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1048.0]Styx Dragon[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=4653.0]Tome Dragon[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=3431.0]Topaz Dragon[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1052.0]Wing Dragon[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1053.0]White Dragon[/url]
[/spoiler]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1188.0]Dragonne[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=6069.0]Drake, Air[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=6812.0]Dread Scarecrow[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=947.0]Drider[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2579.0]Drow[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=6391.0]Drowned[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1243.0]Dryad[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1244.05]Duergar[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1275.0]Dvati[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1276.0]Earth Elemental[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=7298.0]Electric Eel, Awakened[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=697.0]Entropic Reaper[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1360.0]Ethergaunt[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=5208.0]Ettercap[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=537.0]Flail Snail, Awakened[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1323.0]Flind Gnoll[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1363.0]Fire Elemental[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=3508.0]Frostwind Virago[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=538.0]Gelatinous Cube, Awakened[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1364.0]Genie, Kahayal[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1149.0]Ghost[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=698.0]Ghoul[/url]
[b][color=brown]Giants[/color][/b]
[spoiler]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=5577.0]Cloud Giant[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=6881.0]Ettin[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1462.0]Fire Giant[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1463.0]Geriviar[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=6289.0]Half-Giant[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=6070.0]Half-Ogre[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1464.0]Hill Giant[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1465.0]Firbolg[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1466.0]Frost Giant[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1467.0]Ogre[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1468.0]Ogre Mage[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1469.0]Stone Giant[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=5940.0]Storm Giant[/url]
[/spoiler]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2797.0]Giant Eagle[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=5462.0]Gibbering Mouther[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=5184.0]Githyanki[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=5292.0]Githzerai[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1399.0]Gloom[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1400.0]Gnoll[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1455.0]Golem, Force[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1500.0]Golem, Iron[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=4706.0]Golem, Shadesteel[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=6218.0]Goliath[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1502.0]Gray Jester[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1513.0]Gray Shiver[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=6147.0]Grell[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1536.0]Griffon[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=5499.0]Grimalkin[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1537.0]Grimlock[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1538.0]Gynosphynx[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1577.0]Hag, Annis[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1578.0]Hag, Green[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1580.0]Hag, Sea[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1612.0]Hagnumemnon[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1613.0]Hecantoncheires[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1676.0]Harpy[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=5456.0]Harssaf[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1712.0]HellWasp Swarm[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2380.0]Hobgoblin[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2686.0]Hollyphant[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1715.0]Hook Horror[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1747.0]Hydra[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1838.0]Illurien[/url]
[color=green][b]Infernals[/b][/color]
[spoiler]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=6155.0]Abishai[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1819.0]Assassin Devil(Dogai)[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1820.0]Balor[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1821.0]Bone Devil(Osyluth)[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1822.0]Death Drinker[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1823.0]Erinyes[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1824.0]Ice Devil(Gelugon)[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2866.0]Harvester Devil (Falxugon)[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1825.0]Hell Hound[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1826.0]Imp[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=7293.0]Jovoc[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1827.0]Kyton(chain devil)[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=6236.0]Lemure[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1104.msg7664#msg7664]Lilitu[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1828.0]Malebranche[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1829.0]Marilith[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1830.0]Mezzoloth[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=539.0]Monstrous Crab, Awakened[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=5307.0]Monstrous Spider, Awakened[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=6224.0]Narzugon[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=6243.0]Nupperibo[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1831.0]Nycaloth[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1832.0]Pit Fiend[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1823.msg18303#msg18303]Pleasure Devil[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1104.0]Succubus[/url]
[/spoiler]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=6183.0]Invisible Stalker[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=4882.0]Jaebrin[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1774.0]Janni[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1139.0]Joystealer[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1860.0]Kaorti[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1861.0]Keeper[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=5442.0]Kraken[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1876.0]Kuo-Toa[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1775.0]Kython[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=5199.0]Lamia[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1808.0]LeShay[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1809.0]Lillend[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2447.0]Lizardfolk[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2447.msg27783#msg27783]Lizardfolk, Blackscale[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2447.msg27784#msg27784]Lizardfolk, Poison Dusk[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2447.msg27782#msg27782]Lizardfolk, Viletooth[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1845.0]Living Spell[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=5188.0]Marrulurk[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=5188.msg74286#msg74286]Marrusault[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=5188.msg74287#msg74287]Marrutact[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1877.0]Maug[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1899.0]Medusa[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1926.0]Mephit[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1949.0]Merfolk[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1950.0]Midgard Dwarf[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1900.0]Mind Flayer[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1925.0]Mindstealer Drone[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2000.0]Minotaur[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=4802.0]Moon Dog[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=699.0]Mummy[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2058.0]MurderJack[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=5389.0]Myconid[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2079.0]Naga[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=6737.0]Neogi[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2080.0]Nerra (mirror-people)[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=6182.0]Nightmare[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=700.0]NightWalker[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2102.0]Nimblewright[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2001.0]Nixie[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2101.0]Nymph[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2154.0]Owlbear[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2155.0]Pegasus[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=5684.0]Phaerimm[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2184.0]Phasm[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2185.0]Phoenix[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=5194.0]Pistol Wraith[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2215.0]Pixie[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2216.0]Pseudodragon[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2217.0]Puppeteer[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2245.0]Rakshasa[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2397.0]Rakshasa, Ak'Chazar[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2271.0]Rakshasa, Naytyan[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2273.0]Rakshasa, Naztharune[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2307.0]Ravid[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2308.0]RedCap[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2398.0]Reth Dekala[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2399.0]Rukanyr[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2400.0]Rust Monster[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2475.0]Sahuagin[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2476.0]Salamander[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1650.0]Satyr[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2478.0]Scorpionfolk[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2477.0]Silthilar [/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=5458.0]Shaedling[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=6585.0]Sarkrith Thane[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2518.0]Sharn[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2855.0]Sharrukh[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=5451.0]Shield Guardian, Awakened[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=5098.0]Shoggoth[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=6886.0]Shtein[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2519.0]Skaven[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=3295.0]Skybleeder[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=6064.0]Slaad, Blue[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2537.0]Slaad, Red[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2538.0]Slaadi (Green, Grey, Black, White)[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2582.0]Son/Daughter of Silence[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2583.0]Spell Weaver[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2556.0]Spriggan[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=4880.0]Summoning Ooze[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2604.0]Tarrasque[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2605.0]Tengu[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=5187.0]Tharn[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2606.0]Thri-Kreen[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2607.0]Tiefling[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2630.0]Treant[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2631.0]Troglodyte[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2632.0]Troll[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2542.0]Troll, Bladerager[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2543.0]Troll, Mountain[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2633.0]Tsochar[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=5043.0]Tyrannosaurus Rex[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=701.0]Ulgurstasta[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=5131.0]Undying Court: Undying Soldier[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=4971.0]Umber Hulk[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=7522.0]Unbodied[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2634.0]Unicorn[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2653.0]Urskan[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2380.msg26782#msg26782]Varag[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=702.0]Vargouille[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=703.0]Vashutant[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=640.0]Verdant Prince[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=5668.0]Vermiurge[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1567.0]Visage[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=5995.0]Vivisector[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=5527.0]Vorr[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=6411.0]Water Elemental[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=704.0]Wight[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2654.0]Wild Hunt[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2678.0]Will-O'-Wisp[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2679.0]Winter Wolf[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=6034.0]Wood Woad[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2834.0]Worg[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2680.0]Wyvern[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2681.0]Xill[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2695.0]Xixecal[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2696.0]Yuan-Ti (Pureblood->Half-Blood->Abomination)[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2697.0]Zelekhut (Inevitable)[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=933.0]Zenythri[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2698.0]Zern[/url]
[/spoiler]

[b]Prestige Classes[/b]
[spoiler]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=5423.msg78065#msg78065]Barghest, Greater[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=6343.msg94872#msg94872]Boar, Dire[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=6182.msg91756#msg91756]Cauchemar (Nightmare PrC)[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=328.msg1478#msg1478]Cloaker Lord[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=538.msg114258#msg114258]Gelatinous Cube Wizard[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=5651.0]Gibbering Orb[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2380.msg26871#msg26871]Goblin Piledriver[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2740.0]Guardian[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2380.msg26781#msg26781]Iron Zealot (Hobgoblin PrC)[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1775.msg18616#msg18616]Kython Impaler[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1775.msg18622#msg18622]Kython Overlord[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1775.msg18619#msg18619]Kython Slaughterking[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1775.msg18620#msg18620]Kython Slaymaster[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1775.msg18621#msg18621]Kython Viscerator[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2447.msg27785#msg27785]Lizard Shaman[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=5188.msg74288#msg74288]Marruspawn Abomination[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1900.msg33973#msg33973]Mind Flayer, Ulitharid[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2079.msg22125#msg22125]Naga, Dark[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2079.msg22126#msg22126]Naga, Guardian[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2079.msg22127#msg22127]Naga, Spirit[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=6813.msg104605#msg104605]Needle Fighter[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2632.msg30493#msg30493]Troll, War[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=538.msg76694#msg76694]Uber-Cube (Gelatinous Cube PrC)[/url]
[url= http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=5131.msg73382#msg73382]Undying Court: Undying Councilor[/url]
[url= http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=5131.msg73383#msg73383]Undying Court: Ascendant Coucilor[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2696.msg31256#msg31256]Yuan-Ti Anathema[/url] 
[/spoiler]

[b]Templates[/b]
[spoiler]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=540.0]Skeleton, Awakened[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=705.0]Death Knight[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=706.msg3770#msg3770]Demilich[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=6461.0]Fiendish Creature[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=7334.0]Fungal Creature[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=7008.0]Gods[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2767.0]Half-Celestial[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=3533.0]Half-Dragon[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2768.0]Half-Fiend[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2750.0]Half-Golem[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2769.0]Half-Illithid[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2754.0]Half-Troll[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=706.0]Lich[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2723.0]Monster of Legend[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2757.0]Multi-Headed Creature[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=4204.0]Paragon[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=7452.0]Pseudonatural Creature[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2770.0]Shade[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=7156.0]Shadow Creature[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=5555.0]Spell-Stitched Undead[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2758.0]Spellwarped Creature[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=708.0]Swarm-Shifter[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=6186.0]Tauric Creature[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=709.0]Vampire[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=5054.0]Voidmind Creature[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2724.0]Wendigo[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2725.0]Yuan-Ti Tainted One/Broodguard[/url]
[b][BLANK]-anthropes[/b]
[spoiler]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=4332.0]WereBadger[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=3354.0]WereBear[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=3355.0]WereCheetah[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=3356.0]WereConstrictor[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=3357.0]WereHydra[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=3358.0]WereLeopard[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=3359.0]WereLion[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=3360.0]WereLizard[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=6310.0]Were-Murder of Crows[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=6310.msg94208#msg94208]Were-Pity of Doves[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=3361.0]WereRat[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=3362.0]WereRhino[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=3363.0]WereSpider Hunter[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=3364.0]WereSpider Weaver[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=3365.0]WereTiger[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=3366.0]WereViper[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=3367.0]WereWolf[/url]
[/spoiler]
[/spoiler]

[b]Extra Material[/b]
[spoiler]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=526.0]General Monster Feats[/url]
[url=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=327.0]More Monster feats by Prime32[/url]
[/spoiler]
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: oslecamo on October 11, 2012, 07:56:37 PM
Put in the missing pictures and also put the monstrous creatures where they belong. Giant spiders and crabs are not infernals.

Would you mind if I converted the Phantom template from MMV? It's basically a CR +2 "take this for incorporealness" template with a built-in balancing mechanism.

Sure, go ahead.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: FireInTheSky on October 11, 2012, 09:18:06 PM
Put in the missing pictures and also put the monstrous creatures where they belong. Giant spiders and crabs are not infernals.

Oops.   :blush

The reason I had moved them down - or rather, moved them half way down... - was to have consistency among all the Awakened creatures, since there are some creatures in the index as "Awakened X" and some as "X, Awakened."  I thought people would be more likely to look for "X" and see that it was "...,Awakened" rather than looking first for "Awakened X."  It's entirely possible that that's just me though.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Mushroom on October 20, 2012, 11:46:42 AM
Do natural armors stack when using monster hybrid?
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Rakoa on October 20, 2012, 05:06:03 PM
I could have sworn there was a table for multiple natural armor bonuses around here somewhere, but I can't seem to find it.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: oslecamo on October 20, 2012, 07:53:45 PM
Time pretty tight because I have to study for my first uni exam of the semester, so on the next days my activity around this forums will be limited to campaign updating and maintenance of homebrew I wrote myself. I'm simply not visitingMonster classes from other people will have to wait until thursday at least on my part. Scratch that, I dropped in for a peek and ended up spending more time that I can afford right now. Not coming in for the next days, point.

Do natural armors stack when using monster hybrid?

No, bonus of the same type don't stack unless pointed otherwise.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Chemus on October 22, 2012, 09:22:10 PM
Untyped bonuses to NA stack. Enhancement, or other typed Bonuses to NA don't.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: littha on October 23, 2012, 07:06:28 AM
Untyped bonuses to NA stack. Enhancement, or other typed Bonuses to NA don't.

Natural is a bonus type. Just like deflection and enchantment. It does not stack.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Garryl on October 23, 2012, 10:43:35 AM
Untyped bonuses to NA stack. Enhancement, or other typed Bonuses to NA don't.

Natural is a bonus type. Just like deflection and enchantment. It does not stack.

Technically, the bonus is "natural armor", not "natural". There are, however, a wide variety of effects that boost your natural armor bonus (not the least of which are Barkskin and Amulets of Natural Armor, both of which grant enhancement bonuses to your natural armor bonus).
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Chemus on October 23, 2012, 01:12:31 PM
Looking again, Natural Armor bonus is indeed a bonus to which there are other bonuses. So, NA doesn't stack, but differing bonuses to it do.

I hate being wrong. :tongue
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: FireInTheSky on October 27, 2012, 12:20:56 PM
Rakoa, if you don't mind, and if Osle has the power as Mod of this Sub-forum, is it okay if he deletes your post in the Index, just to keep it clean?  I have to add more posts due to character limits.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Rakoa on October 27, 2012, 05:13:19 PM
Yeah actually I noticed that the other day and was beating myself up for posting there, I assume before I realized there was a discussion thread. Get rid of it ASAP. :)
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: oslecamo on October 27, 2012, 06:24:51 PM
Very well, removed it.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: FireInTheSky on October 27, 2012, 08:16:35 PM
Very well, removed it.

Sweet! :love  Looks much cleaner
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: FireInTheSky on November 06, 2012, 01:31:13 AM
That's weird...  For some reason, some of the tables decided not to be sortable, even though the code is the same as with the ones that are...

:shrug
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: sirpercival on November 06, 2012, 07:56:27 AM
Maybe you have a missing tag somewhere, which doesn't make it look any different, but stops it from sorting?
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: BearsAreBrown on November 07, 2012, 11:45:49 PM
Question about power level and monster classes with full casting. Why would you ever be a standard class when you can get monster powers? Aren't they strictly better?

Am I missing something or is that an issue out of the scope of the project?


Also, anything I can do to help?
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: bhu on November 08, 2012, 12:07:47 AM
OK hows The Curst look?
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: FireInTheSky on November 08, 2012, 12:10:37 AM
Question about power level and monster classes with full casting. Why would you ever be a standard class when you can get monster powers? Aren't they strictly better?

Am I missing something or is that an issue out of the scope of the project?

Well, usually, a "full casting" progression comes with some kind of caveat - typically in terms of spell selection.  So, sure, you have the same number of spells known and per day, but you have many fewer to choose from.

Quote
Also, anything I can do to help?

If you're feeling up to it, read the FAQ and Monster-Building Guidelines, look at the first post in the Request List, and see if there's anything in the list that catches your fancy.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: bhu on November 08, 2012, 02:07:12 AM
Willing to do Vampire Lord next if there's no more feedback on Curst
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Nanshork on November 08, 2012, 08:59:43 AM
Willing to do Vampire Lord next if there's no more feedback on Curst

Don't be in such a rush, give oslecamo a chance to go over it.   :P
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: oslecamo on November 08, 2012, 03:02:18 PM
Question about power level and monster classes with full casting. Why would you ever be a standard class when you can get monster powers? Aren't they strictly better?

Am I missing something or is that an issue out of the scope of the project?
I do strive to make sure that all spellcasting monsters have some limitation in relation to the original.

Also, anything I can do to help?
Besides what FireInTheSky said, you can also sugest feats, search for balance/rules problems, clean up stuff grammar-wise and PM it to me or just comment around.

Willing to do Vampire Lord next if there's no more feedback on Curst
WARNING: Vampire Lord, like the original vampire, will need extensive customization to meet my criteria. If you want to tackle it, I'll ask you to look at the Vampire (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=709.0) from here.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: ariasderros on November 08, 2012, 03:14:50 PM
Also, anything I can do to help?
Besides what FireInTheSky said, you can also sugest feats, search for balance/rules problems, clean up stuff grammar-wise and PM it to me or just comment around.

Drow entry includes "Drows" multiple times. "Drow" is both singular and plural, thus "Drows" is incorrect.

I've been thinking about how to give Dragons the Alternate Form, Half-Dragon Form, and Hidden Strength feats from Dragons of Eberron, page 15. But making those feats more accessible to the various Dragons here. As well as have the half-dragon form have something to do with this version instead.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: littha on November 09, 2012, 01:14:13 AM
What a lot of the dragon classes could do with is virtual age categories. That way they can actually take the dragon specific feats that are scattered through the rules.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: oslecamo on November 11, 2012, 05:26:14 PM
They already have age categories as far as I care. They're the same ones as the originals. CR=level remember? I even made sure they grow at the right age categories.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: littha on November 12, 2012, 12:56:49 AM
Yes but there is no statement of their actual categories. A single line to the effect of "All dragon classes start at wyrmling and increase an age category every time they grow" in the FAQ would resolve this.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: bobthe6th on December 02, 2012, 02:06:19 AM
Ok... looking at the list of requests... how would a whip syimbiote work? The best I can think of is giving a "pet" (like a warrior, or a just flat human with RHD=to whip level) to use it.  Would that make sense?  Like an inverted animal companion. Or would the

The other problem is it CR 1... It feels like that level would be really full of stuff(Base creature changes, the complicated companion system, poison...)

perhapce make it a less complex "syimbiote" class, were every level the character adds another variety of sympiote?  So it slowly becomes more dominante as it adds stuff... 

The problem I feel is it was never meant to even be sentient... It is like a magic sword class. 
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: oslecamo on December 03, 2012, 04:51:46 PM
It doesn't need to have that many stuff. Just base whip abilities, then some replaceable commoner NPC to carry it around.

Then an idea that just occurred to me, as the whip takes levels, he can then bestow those levels abilities on the host. So if you're a whip 1/barbarian 1, your host can do the raging for example.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: bobthe6th on December 03, 2012, 05:07:16 PM
But then you have the problem of the whip attaching to other things...  and just becoming a magic item the warblade uses to get mad buffs. Perhaps require it has "dominance" on a host to grant the abilities, basically possessing them and making them act as the whip... With the host getting saves when the whip orders it to do things against its nature?

Though a whip 1/sorc x would be a crazy weapon for anyone.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: BearsAreBrown on December 03, 2012, 06:27:47 PM
Make the host's levels replace those of the target, not add.

What to do with ability scores though...
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: oslecamo on December 03, 2012, 06:31:19 PM
Make the host's levels replace those of the target, not add.
Excellent point, and that's actually how the symbiotes of the Daelkyr monster class work right now.

What to do with ability scores though...
Hmm, what's the problem there? Either don't change them, or straight up penalties.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: BearsAreBrown on December 03, 2012, 06:34:01 PM
Does it assume the physical ability scores of what it's attached to?

If not then it's either gotta be a strong whip or there will be some wimp ass commoners.
If so then it becomes a battle of trying to find the strongest person to ride on and has real balance issues.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Mushroom on December 04, 2012, 11:52:01 PM
>Olescamo posts a picture of Luscious the Etrenal
>I have been resisting the urge to be That Guy and request a Space Marine class for some time now

One day...
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Concerned Ninja Citizen on December 09, 2012, 02:15:29 PM
The Dragon classes (those I've read so far anyway) lack any explanation of what the Dragon type grants.

Dragon doesn't have a laundry list of abilities long enough to justify a spoilered sidebar but maybe they could have, ala Outsider, an aside after "gains Dragon traits" saying "(60ft Darkvision, low light vision, and immunity to sleep and paralysis)"?
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: oslecamo on December 09, 2012, 03:11:18 PM
Done.


>I have been resisting the urge to be That Guy and request a Space Marine class for some time now

One day...

I'm actually more of a KHAOS fan, and have actually been tinkering with a KHAOS set of classes myself for quite some time now, something along the line of:
chaos cultist->chaos warrior->chaos champion->chaos chosen->chaos lord->daemon prince, each with 3-4 levels, with the special option of you being able to retrain previous levels of other classes to qualify if you perform a specially fell act a la blackguard. Your abilities are basically "gifts" granted by the forces of KHAOS, be it mutations or exotic wargear or daemonic minions.

All in all KHAOS did start with warhammer fantasy, and even in 40k half the stuff is working based on magic anyway, so it should fit right into a D&D campaign I believe.

If it gets requested I would feel more motivated to properly work on it. :p

Loyalist scum would be represented by a custom flaw.  :P
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: bobthe6th on December 22, 2012, 06:35:19 PM
Working on making the titan, as it seemed like a fun 21 level base class, near enough to stuff I have done before.

What do you think of this list for spreading the blasting over 20 levels.


Avatar of Destruction(Sp): A titan is the embodiment of free and wild impulses, including destructive impulses. At second level and every two levels ending at 18th there after it learns to use some spell like abilities.

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: oslecamo on December 22, 2012, 08:46:47 PM
Eerr, I'm not a really big fan of adding SLAs for SLA's sake, in particular when the Titan is suposed to be a melee guy first and throw the ocasional nuke as backup, not a magic blaster. Just give him the original SLAs and focus more on allowing him to use them while bashing stuff up.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: bobthe6th on December 22, 2012, 08:57:44 PM
problem is, those SLAs are... top of their field. It would be odd to toss in an entire facet of the class at 15-20...  plus he is very much as gish. I mean, it has just about every different kind of casting. Though I do see your point. I did try to give it semi full casting, when I should have tried for more duskblade like casting.

I will change some stuff around.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: oslecamo on December 22, 2012, 09:12:53 PM
Top of the field? On the contrary, you can actually make a quite solid progression from start, just need to swap one or another here that are underpowered for their level anyway.

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: bobthe6th on December 22, 2012, 09:25:00 PM
well, I handed out the SNA as a angel esque summon servant ability. 

and a fair point, but that means most of the blasting will come online at 10+... 

but I am working on it. should have it done some point tomorrow for proper review.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: bobthe6th on December 23, 2012, 07:16:17 PM
Titan is up, without a table. how do you make those?
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: oslecamo on December 23, 2012, 07:39:24 PM
When you go to make a post, right up "Please choose..." column allows you to create tables right away.

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Rakoa on December 25, 2012, 12:02:20 PM
A Very Merry Christmas to Oslecamo and all the Monster builders!
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: CDTalmas on December 25, 2012, 01:40:30 PM
Yes, Merry Christmas everyone.  And to everyone, a good fight... er, night!
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: oslecamo on December 31, 2012, 06:04:59 AM
Wishing you all a good last day of 2012 and a great entry in 2013!
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Concerned Ninja Citizen on January 29, 2013, 01:30:46 AM
And nearly a month later, wishing you all a happy "minmax is back" day!

I have missed the index on this forum like you wouldn't believe.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: FireInTheSky on January 29, 2013, 08:04:29 PM
Maybe now I'll have time to finish the tables I was working on last fall...
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Concerned Ninja Citizen on January 29, 2013, 08:07:25 PM
Please do. They're incredibly helpful.

EDIT: SLA saves are based on Cha by default. Is it allowed in this project to switch their key ability if it makes more sense for the given monster?
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: oslecamo on January 30, 2013, 06:12:12 PM
Yes, and it's been done like that for lots of monsters until now.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Rakoa on February 01, 2013, 11:05:21 AM
Praise the Lord! Minmax is back. Let's hope something like that doesn't happen again. Good to be back.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Surreal on February 01, 2013, 04:28:57 PM
Hmm, I thought it was praise be to Gygax around these parts.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: VennDygrem on February 02, 2013, 09:52:07 AM
Hmm, Zodar is listed under Prestige Classes when it should just be under regular monster classes in the Index.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Rakoa on February 02, 2013, 06:54:35 PM
Hmm, I thought it was praise be to Gygax around these parts.

Of course I was referring to Lord Gygax. Who else would the Lord be?
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: oslecamo on February 03, 2013, 08:29:36 PM
Lord Zun, god of beer and touhou.

Anyway, fixed Zodar in the index, thanks for pointing it out.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: bobthe6th on February 04, 2013, 12:14:57 AM
Ok, so I am thinking of making the purple worm and have some issues.
1) can you awaken a magical beast?
2) being basicaly a massive snake, can I get away with nonstandard space & reach? Like it ocupies x continues x by x spaces, like a swarm.
3) could I use the UA facing variant to go with the unique spacing? The idea would be that the sting and the head can reach a diffrent areas...
4) Would filling the class with snake refrances be a bad thing?
2) how much dune can I get away with referencing?
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Concerned Ninja Citizen on February 04, 2013, 02:48:51 AM
"Awakened" in the context of these classes pretty much means "it has < 3 Int but I'm gonna make it a class anyway, so nyah."

You should totally reference the hell out of dune. Not sure about snakes, though. Its a worm, not a snake. Worms (and Wurms but not Wyrms) have a reasonable number of references of their own. 
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: oslecamo on February 04, 2013, 05:58:09 AM
-As far as I care you can awaken whatever you want. I've already awakened basilisks, crabs, oozes and whatnot.
-Nonstandard space and reach sounds like a good plan of making it diferent, altough remember it cannot fill other creature's spaces like a swarm.
-If you're bringing in facing rules, make sure to keep them simple. There  are good reason why they were discarded to begin with.
-Snake references for the purple worm bad.
-Dune references for the purple worm good.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Rakoa on February 04, 2013, 12:09:15 PM
I am down with all that. Dune references EVERYWHERE! In fact, if I see an ability WITHOUT a Dune reference I will be finding you and smacking you.  :p
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: bobthe6th on February 04, 2013, 05:45:11 PM
Ok, I will admit it, I have never read Dune. I only watched the terible movie(which I suspect was the cliffs notes version). So when I post it, feel free to suggest more Dune refrences.

Also, I have the class sketched out... and am typing it up. The Segment ability is how I am managing the fact a 80ft worm moves really differently then a storm giant. Though as I am making it up as I go, I would really like someone to look at the ability as is.

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: oslecamo on February 06, 2013, 07:45:28 AM
Usually natural weapons don't have iteratives.

Also the head and tail should have the usual reach for a creature of that size. Actually it may be better just removing the whole "each bit can make a slam attack" and instead do some kind of trample/run trough attack, because it's kinda absurd the purple worm just attacking with a few select segments at a time.

Also you may want to clarify if all the segments must stick to the ground or if the purple worm can "coil" itself upwards to reach stuff higher.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: bobthe6th on February 06, 2013, 11:02:18 AM
Desperate times call for desperate measures. The iteratives were so the worm could fight some of its length every round. This was to make up for the lack of using all the natural weapons at once.

If it had two normal natural weapons, the worm would be bending double constantly. That would look and sound really silly. My idea was that the worm could slam things by lashing out with a section of its body. Additionally, the natural weapons will become more distinct as they level. The slams and bit will grapple after a hit, and the sting will get a wolf trip.

Hmm... that makes sense.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Concerned Ninja Citizen on February 06, 2013, 11:14:40 AM
What about a crush attack, ala dragons, using the inbetween segments? Then you could give it 3 natural attacks (bite, sting, crush) instead of 2+1/segment.

BTW, if you mean the Dune movie with Patrick Stewart and Billy Idol in it, it actually stuck reasonably faithfully to the book, albeit in a highly condensed form.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: bobthe6th on February 06, 2013, 05:50:39 PM
edit: Well slam is basically a crush... and it would work the same as a crush. You really only have 3 attacks to keep track of, slam bite sting.

Yeah, that movie single handedly made me understand why most books->movies don't stick to the book. I spent the entire movie in various states of WTF? "and now we shall teach the natives the wierding way, which has never been mentioned. This seems to have something to do with shouting, and high tech dog collars. My enemy is a obese man with a jet pack... Also I have a love interest that is mentioned in all of three scenes. This makes sense!"
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on February 06, 2013, 06:21:44 PM
Question! What happens if you take two monster classes (e.g. Awakened Monstrous Spider/Nuclear Dragon) using Monstetr Blooded/Monster Hybrid to the point your size category would increase beyond colossal?
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: veekie on February 06, 2013, 09:31:34 PM
Yeah, that movie single handedly made me understand why most books->movies don't stick to the book. I spent the entire movie in various states of WTF? "and now we shall teach the natives the wierding way, which has never been mentioned. This seems to have something to do with shouting, and high tech dog collars. My enemy is a obese man with a jet pack... Also I have a love interest that is mentioned in all of three scenes. This makes sense!"
Actually, the weirding way is just superhuman martial arts, I'm not sure what the heck it has to do with shouting.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Concerned Ninja Citizen on February 06, 2013, 09:49:16 PM
In the movie the thing they were calling the "Weirding Way" consisted mainly of utilizing something refered to a couple of times as "weirding crystals" which were put into essentially high tech dog collars and focused energy created by shouting through a laser gun looking thing into a sonic energy attack.

It was ... weird.

I think what they were going for was a militarized version of the Bene Gesserit "Voice" which is connected to the weirding way in that they're both taught by the Bene Gesserit and is easier to show using 80s effects than superhuman martial arts.

However, I don't recall any "weirding crystals" or high tech dog collars in the book (though I might be miss remembering. My memories are about equal parts book, movie, and early 2000s mini series which was similar in plot to the movie but made a heck of a lot more sense by virtue of having 6 or so hours to tell the story instead of 2.)

And now we're talking about Dune instead of monster classes.

Just make sure the Purple Worm class is not making sonic attacks using high tech dog collars. That would be bad.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: bobthe6th on February 06, 2013, 10:56:17 PM
It was more my exposure to the thing I am supposed to be referencing did not make a great deal of sense. The fact that random stuff kept happening(without the exposition a full length novel can give), made it confusing as hell.

Was thinking about giving the worm a "spice" breath weapon from the sting end that deals wis&str damage?
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: oslecamo on February 07, 2013, 07:23:18 AM
The dune worms shot spice from their rears? :psyduck

Question! What happens if you take two monster classes (e.g. Awakened Monstrous Spider/Nuclear Dragon) using Monstetr Blooded/Monster Hybrid to the point your size category would increase beyond colossal?

System overload error please reset your game Added FAQ entry about it, based on the Xixecal toppling mountain ability. Basically bigger reach/space/natural weapons and armor.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: bobthe6th on February 07, 2013, 08:04:38 AM
I'm pretty sure it was their excrement...
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Prime32 on February 07, 2013, 08:46:56 AM
Ok, I will admit it, I have never read Dune. I only watched the terible movie(which I suspect was the cliffs notes version). So when I post it, feel free to suggest more Dune refrences.

Also, I have the class sketched out... and am typing it up. The Segment ability is how I am managing the fact a 80ft worm moves really differently then a storm giant. Though as I am making it up as I go, I would really like someone to look at the ability as is.

(click to show/hide)
That Segmentation ability is... really confusing. Try something more like this:

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on February 07, 2013, 12:14:22 PM
Height increases by ten feet? I thought size increases were basically doubling the most important dimension (height/length)?
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: oslecamo on February 07, 2013, 03:18:40 PM
Medium/small~5 feet.
Large~10 feet.
huge~15 feet.
Gargantuan~20 feet.
Colossal~30 feet.

Where's the doublings?

Also +1 to Prime32's sugestions for the Purple Worm.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on February 07, 2013, 03:32:13 PM
Total height and weight are on a list down here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/movementPositionAndDistance.htm). It seems to imply that the tallest/longest things in D&D are unlikely to be any bigger than 128 feet, looking at the pattern. Growing from Medium, then to Large could be as little as an inch, but when you have things like dragons (that then move up to Gargantuan and Colossal with age), their total size is doubling at some point.

... odd question on ability combinations: Gelatinous Cube/Hellwasp Swarm: would they deal acid damage to anything caught inside their area?
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: sirpercival on February 07, 2013, 03:33:16 PM
Total height and weight are on a list down here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/movementPositionAndDistance.htm). It seems to imply that the tallest/longest things in D&D are unlikely to be any bigger than 128 feet, looking at the pattern.

... odd question on ability combinations: Gelatinous Cube/Hellwasp Swarm: would they deal acid damage to anything caught inside their area?
It's space/reach which are changing.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on February 07, 2013, 03:35:28 PM
Quote
Your character's face, reach and height all increase by 10 feet, its natural armor increases by an extra 1, its natural weapons increase one die size.

Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: ariasderros on February 07, 2013, 04:10:20 PM
I'm pretty sure it was their excrement...

Sort of, there was a substance, fungal in nature, in the excrement of the young ones, that could react with water to become the pre-spice. That said, the little ones could also have a more potent version of it being their vomit (the waters of life). The full grown Shai Hulud don't really produce it anymore, though with the nature of how the spice is in everything on Arrakis, they've become saturated with it. It doesn't help that Shai Hulud eat the little ones. That's why the adults have their "spice breath", which even still isn't mentioned much, and is normally only referenced when people are in a trance anyway.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on February 07, 2013, 04:13:04 PM
... looking up, I also think that face should be space, because I am fairly confident that your face shouldn't grow like that.


Dune dragged so much. It probably didn't help that I found an omnibus edition of it and... two books that followed on. I despaired of ever finishing the thing after Dune itself. Thick book, tiny font, big pages. XD
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: ariasderros on February 07, 2013, 04:33:01 PM
Dune dragged so much. It probably didn't help that I found an omnibus edition of it and... two books that followed on. I despaired of ever finishing the thing after Dune itself. Thick book, tiny font, big pages. XD

Dune is good. Many of the books after Dune are good. The real problem is that the one that is immediately after Dune is Messiah. Anyone who can get through that can get through anything.
If you think Robinson Crusoe, Moby Dick, Dune, or any other classic 'drags', just go read Dune Messiah, and no other book will ever seem as bad.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on February 07, 2013, 04:35:00 PM
Ah, Dune Messiah, that was it. Got to that, ground to a halt. As I said, absolutely huge book.

Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: oslecamo on February 07, 2013, 04:48:31 PM
Total height and weight are on a list down here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/movementPositionAndDistance.htm). It seems to imply that the tallest/longest things in D&D are unlikely to be any bigger than 128 feet, looking at the pattern. Growing from Medium, then to Large could be as little as an inch, but when you have things like dragons (that then move up to Gargantuan and Colossal with age), their total size is doubling at some point.
Changed face to space and height is doubled now. Updated the Xixecal (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2695.msg31250#msg31250) with it as well. Should get pretty big by 36th level now.

... odd question on ability combinations: Gelatinous Cube/Hellwasp Swarm: would they deal acid damage to anything caught inside their area?
Yes, but your opponents would get reflex saves to get out of the way due to Engulf.

Can't really join the Dune discussion since only saw the movie quite a time ago.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on February 07, 2013, 05:01:40 PM
Ah, so simply moving over them wouldn't do it?

Hmm... could a huge or larger Hellwasp Swarm split into more swarms (ie, could a colossal swarm split into four huge swarms, nine large swarms, or thirty-six medium swarms), and how would you work out the dimensions of 'long' swarms for this (I can see a few ways for colossal--two 15x30 feet, three 10x30 feet, and six 5x30 feet)?

Quote
Ancient Heart: The tarrasque's regeneration can't be bypassed by anything, and any effect that would kill it outright instead simply deals it nonlethal damage equal to it's total HP +10, and it no longer automatically fails saves on a natural 1.

And does that overrule the 'critical immunity = no regeneration' clause?
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: bobthe6th on February 07, 2013, 11:35:24 PM
Ok, that is actualy a lot better idea. That I think I can marry to the rest of then class without overly confusing people. It losses some simulation qualities, but what the hell, it seems to work.

Ok, at this point, what do people want from a purple worm? I have tremor sense, scent, blind sense into sight, a poison sting, a bite that can improved grapple and swallow whole, swim speed+burrow speed, and the new segmentation ability. I am open to suggestions, as right now this will be kinda bland. It has +8 con and +6 str over 12 levels as a lot of them are that empty.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Threadnaught on February 08, 2013, 10:58:08 AM
Total height and weight are on a list down here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/movementPositionAndDistance.htm). It seems to imply that the tallest/longest things in D&D are unlikely to be any bigger than 128 feet, looking at the pattern. Growing from Medium, then to Large could be as little as an inch, but when you have things like dragons (that then move up to Gargantuan and Colossal with age), their total size is doubling at some point.
Changed face to space and height is doubled now. Updated the Xixecal (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2695.msg31250#msg31250) with it as well. Should get pretty big by 36th level now.

Sweet merciful crap that thing can grow to a total height of 4095 feet tall, it's minimum size (at 36th level) is 2048 feet. Well, I sure hope nobody pisses off mount everest. :eh
Anyone here played Zork? I have an amendment for that one line.
Quote from: New Quote
It's pitch black, the Xixecal is blocking out the sun.

It does make a lot more sense this way though, with all the damage resistance you gave against all creatures smaller than the Xixecal. Much better than the previous "OMG that guy's 1 inch taller than his opponent, there's no way his opponent can hurt him." :lol
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: oslecamo on February 08, 2013, 06:06:26 PM
Ah, so simply moving over them wouldn't do it?

Hmm... could a huge or larger Hellwasp Swarm split into more swarms (ie, could a colossal swarm split into four huge swarms, nine large swarms, or thirty-six medium swarms), and how would you work out the dimensions of 'long' swarms for this (I can see a few ways for colossal--two 15x30 feet, three 10x30 feet, and six 5x30 feet)?
-No.
-What matters with spliting is that the total volume stays constants in either form. Dividing in 36 swarms isn't very wise since it divides your HP by 36.

Quote
Ancient Heart: The tarrasque's regeneration can't be bypassed by anything, and any effect that would kill it outright instead simply deals it nonlethal damage equal to it's total HP +10, and it no longer automatically fails saves on a natural 1.

And does that overrule the 'critical immunity = no regeneration' clause?
Yes.

Ok, that is actualy a lot better idea. That I think I can marry to the rest of then class without overly confusing people. It losses some simulation qualities, but what the hell, it seems to work.

Ok, at this point, what do people want from a purple worm? I have tremor sense, scent, blind sense into sight, a poison sting, a bite that can improved grapple and swallow whole, swim speed+burrow speed, and the new segmentation ability. I am open to suggestions, as right now this will be kinda bland. It has +8 con and +6 str over 12 levels as a lot of them are that empty.
-Anti-air options.
-It's slow and big. Anti-kiting abilities are needed.
-Purple Rain, Puuurrrpppllleeee Raaiinnn.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on February 08, 2013, 06:13:48 PM
Excellent.

... for reasons unknown to myself, I decided to see what the most concerning hybrid monster gestalt I could put into 20 levels is. Hellwasp Swarm 8/Gelatinous Cube 3/Invisible Stalker 7/Displacer Beast 2//Tarrasque 20 is the end result. Behold! Ridiculously huge, invisible swarm of acidic intelligent wasps that dodges area attacks.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Concerned Ninja Citizen on February 08, 2013, 06:43:51 PM
-Purple Rain, Puuurrrpppllleeee Raaiinnn.

Purple Haze, "Scuse me, while I kiss the skiiiyee!!"

Ok, now I'm writing a Purple Worm prestige class:

"Deep Purple"

abilities
"Smoke on the Water"
"Fireball"
"Stormbringer"
"Burn"
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: bobthe6th on February 08, 2013, 07:02:14 PM
-Anti-air options.
-It's slow and big. Anti-kiting abilities are needed.
-Purple Rain, Puuurrrpppllleeee Raaiinnn.

It can just go underground along with his friends....

It can just go underground again... unless the kiter can hit stuff beneath the ground, their stuck being unable to touch you.

Though I fear the answer to both of these would be a ranged attack option. What about a acid spit that works as a thrown weapon and damages like a acid flask+a sling, with a poison chaser for wis damage. Hallucinogenic worm gizard acid!
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on February 08, 2013, 07:19:33 PM
Going underground doesn't really solve any problems.

... now I'm questioning how a gelatinous horde of demonic wasps can have a swim speed.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Concerned Ninja Citizen on February 08, 2013, 07:38:29 PM
I think the implication is that the Worm will use some kind of mole strategy. That is, Spring Attack or similar so it can pop out of the ground, attack, and go back under. That way the opponent never has line of effect for their kiting or ranged attacks (unless they ready an action, of course.)

That's a purely defensive tactic, though. It doesn't solve the problem of the Worm being unable to engage with enemies with superior modbility. Of course, there's nothing stopping the Worm from picking up a fly effect of its own (go go flying purple worm attack!)
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on February 08, 2013, 07:44:00 PM
Flying (http://www.kongregate.com/games/EffingGames/effing-worms) worms, (http://www.kongregate.com/games/EffingGames/effing-worms-2) eh? (http://www.kongregate.com/games/EffingGames/effing-worms-xmas)
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Prime32 on February 08, 2013, 07:55:52 PM
If there are Purple Worm PrCs, one should have the Split ability. It's a classic.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: bobthe6th on February 08, 2013, 08:28:06 PM
Going underground means flying foes either have to land or be rendered a nonissue. The worm when it gets the ability to make proper tunnels, the party can just go underground to ignore the threat. Oh dear, we are ambushed by a succubus! Oh wait, not an issue, we just tunneled underground.

edit: yeah, effing worms was in the back of my mind as I work on this class.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on February 08, 2013, 08:44:39 PM
'Going underground' is hardly a catch-all solution. Maybe if the only goal was 'survive this random fight in the middle of a field', but if not...

It also frees up the fliers to attack anyone left above ground.

And for the succubus example, umm... you get followed underground? >.>
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: oslecamo on February 08, 2013, 08:46:47 PM
The ambushing succubus grabs the treasure, drains the innocents, haves some tea since she's at it and goes away.

Hiding underground is all fine and dandy for raw survival, but won't really do much in the way of acomplishing objectives.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: bobthe6th on February 08, 2013, 09:36:00 PM
I mean... acid spit idea already pirposed. also going to add a effing worms pounce ability.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: ariasderros on February 08, 2013, 11:31:22 PM
For the anti-air, running away isn't always an option. And even when it is an option, it isn't one that appeals to most players. That's what you are saying is enough for anti-air. Burrowing isn't an anti-air solution, it is running away, in the hopes that the flying enemy will land or otherwise do as you wish, instead of bypassing you and attacking your village / teammates / whatever.

The Tarrasque, for example, has an ability that lets him roar to knock flyers down to his level.

In Dune, the worms were so big & long that they could raise up their head to try to eat a Thopter, in general, fast enough that the Thopter  needed a head start or it would be lunch. This was compounded by the fact that the worm would be breathing in through its mouth with enough force that the Thopters couldn't always get enough lift.

Give it a vertical reach, based on its length, for its bite attack. If you want to do something like the 'sucking it in' that Shai-Hulud could do, or an air-shaking roar like the Tarrasque class too, then that would be a good idea too.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: bobthe6th on February 09, 2013, 12:24:51 AM
purple worm is up

They can already just reach up with normal reach... and I worry about complicating segmentation with a note that you can move up as long as two segments are left touching the ground.

Note the Purple rain attack though... Anti air/ranged, with a acid AoE that adds wis damage poison at level 3.

Damn sucubi... Acid ER+poison immunity. Ok, I will add the feature to segmentation.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: oslecamo on February 11, 2013, 06:43:39 PM
Originally posted on the Mineral Warrior but wanted to let some stuff clear:
hmm... I guess. Still in a less optamized game it is crazy, though that is the general rule with these classes.

I'm definitely not gonna disagree with that. I think the main point of these Classes now is, popularity. Secondary point is probably the original point to this project, to create more challenging encounters for players.
The main point of this project has been, for years now, to allow players to play monsters in a fun relatively balanced way.
I always do those in a player's perspective first.
Second would be popularity I guess since feedback is always nice.
That I can use them as NPCs is tertiary as best, altough I admit I've seen plenty of people using them primarly for that. However I can challenge players with regular monsters just as well if not better (in case of doubt, advance HD and multiclass into non-associated class levels).
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: ariasderros on February 11, 2013, 06:59:13 PM
However I can challenge players with regular monsters just as well if not better (in case of doubt, advance HD and multiclass into non-associated class levels).

Yeah, you can. You're really good at it I bet. I mean, it's like you wrote the book on it.
... Oh, wait, you did.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: bobthe6th on February 11, 2013, 07:50:38 PM
And I still have the mental scaring from one player getting the DM to let him play a lupinal... slightly modified.

Though I do note that when I know I can use this project, it turns on my inner powergamer. Though I do so want to play a single classed titan from 1 to 20 now...
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Threadnaught on February 12, 2013, 08:29:12 PM
Okay I got the order wrong and didn't count the reason you have in every Information Thread/Post you have in all versions of this project. That was almost as stupid as giving my players Wish Stones. :lmao


Well at least my assumptions about your DMing skills have yet to be disproven. There are a few DMs online and of all their styles, the two that interest me the most are JaronK for what would be a very unusual and amusing campaign. And the guy in Oslecamo's mirror, because going by his handbook, he knows how to throw a good challenge at his players up to and including Killer DM level, without... Well, doing this >:fu< every single time a player attempts to use a Class feature.

No seriously, I've seen people post that they're some kind of awesome DM because, right after they admit to being Killer DMs, they also admit to banning players from using Class features. Like when Sneak Attack one shots a mook and suddenly all mooks have Fortification, a Rage deals a large amount of damage to a boss suddenly Rage becomes Frenzy, except you always hit your friends, or the Wizard tries to throw a Fireball nah that's not right, Wizards aren't allowed to cast Spells, they throw rocks.


Okay, I'm all done gushing about Osle and JaronK like a schoolgirl with a crush. Anyone got any ideas how to handle that worm?
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: ariasderros on February 18, 2013, 11:50:43 AM
I think there might need to be a mention about languages known for various races. Also, is Common usually known, or not?
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Concerned Ninja Citizen on February 18, 2013, 01:05:48 PM
Given that the prime directive of the project is "make it a playable PC class" I would think knowing common would be the default. Not knowing common can be a significant barrier to player participation in the party esp at low levels.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: oslecamo on February 18, 2013, 02:59:48 PM
Added FAQ clause about the languages.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: VennDygrem on February 19, 2013, 05:46:51 PM
Technically-speaking, there is a little-known snippet in the PHB that states that all player characters know Common, which saves a lot of hassle. However, that might be one of those things where the PHB also assumes you'll be playing as one of the core races, which all explicitly know Common anyway.

I'm of the mind that it's perfectly reasonable to allow PC's to all start knowing Common regardless. No reason your whisper gnome should have to spend skill points to know Common, of all things. Technically, for those I'd say a whisper gnome would start with Common and Gnome, and have the same bonus languages as a Gnome except add Terran. But that's unofficial.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: ariasderros on February 20, 2013, 09:46:30 AM
Technically-speaking, there is a little-known snippet in the PHB that states that all player characters know Common, which saves a lot of hassle.

Yes, but Osle's FAQ addition mentions the other part of my question, which is about languages other than common. I asked mostly for the sake of a dragon I'm making. I didn't see anything in the classes themselves that explicitly stated I'd know draconic. Yes, it seems obvious, but it's better to clarify such things.

And now it has been.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on February 22, 2013, 03:52:02 PM
Are any of the classes so far plants (as in, literally)? I'm not sure. Bad with names, real or made up. :S
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: bobthe6th on February 22, 2013, 05:39:38 PM
treant for one, not sure of any others.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Threadnaught on February 22, 2013, 05:44:38 PM
Are any of the classes so far plants (as in, literally)? I'm not sure. Bad with names, real or made up. :S

There's the Treants, not sure if they count though. And Ironmaw is on the waiting list with Ironthorn and Saguaro Sentinal pending, there's one version of the Ironthorn I know of that could do with some serious balancing, if you're interested.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: oslecamo on February 22, 2013, 08:02:15 PM
Well went ahead and posted that one as you had sugested.

Other plant creatures done so far that I remember include the Wood Woad and the Fungal Creature.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Threadnaught on February 23, 2013, 11:56:07 AM
Now the problem of "it's an Ironthorn, quick everyone walk briskly" is dealt with.
My Druid may have my Sandstorm, but he won't see this tree coming in the forest he'll try walking briskly pass.

Next from me is that PrC then I'll give those golems a go. Hope they'll get as little editing as the Ironthorn had. :D
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Concerned Ninja Citizen on February 24, 2013, 11:12:32 PM
After a quick search, the only plant type class not yet mentioned is the Myconid.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Threadnaught on February 26, 2013, 09:59:42 AM
It cool with you if I compile a list of which classes fit into specific types and subtypes?
I'm thinking this would make it a little easier for people who are looking for a certain type of creatue, without havin to know the actual names. And unlike half-golem materials, it's unlikely to give me a headache on the third entry. I'll get started on that one again someday, I swear. :smirk
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: sirpercival on February 26, 2013, 10:01:59 AM
It cool with you if I compile a list of which classes fit into specific types and subtypes?
I'm thinking this would make it a little easier for people who are looking for a certain type of creatue, without havin to know the actual names. And unlike half-golem materials, it's unlikely to give me a headache on the third entry. I'll get started on that one again someday, I swear. :smirk
Have you seen FireInTheSky's sortable tables?
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Threadnaught on February 26, 2013, 12:06:53 PM
It cool with you if I compile a list of which classes fit into specific types and subtypes?
I'm thinking this would make it a little easier for people who are looking for a certain type of creatue, without havin to know the actual names. And unlike half-golem materials, it's unlikely to give me a headache on the third entry. I'll get started on that one again someday, I swear. :smirk
Have you seen FireInTheSky's sortable tables?

I've seen those and they're very useful for finding what an individual class is capable of, didn't really notice types and subtypes though. I fumbled my search check there.
Half-golem table is still on my to do list. :rolleyes
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: FireInTheSky on February 26, 2013, 12:31:09 PM
Yeah, I'll get around to finishing those at some point...
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Nanshork on February 26, 2013, 12:54:09 PM
Yeah, I'll get around to finishing those at some point...

You better.   :P
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Threadnaught on March 03, 2013, 01:18:44 PM
Okay I've thrown out a very patchy Dustform Creature and have attempted to utilize the original's weakness as it's unique ability, if anyones wants a look at it in it's current state, I can pm it, but wear goggles they'll protect your eyes. I probably should stick to the monsters with a mid level CR.

I think I'm just gonna go prioritize the books I get according to this project* Osle, the only things I can currently try are my own requests and the Para-Elementals. :lol
I have a more complete picture for a few items on the waiting list, so they'll be more like the Ironthorn in terms of quality.


*Still getting Libris Mortis and the Fiend Folio first though.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: bobthe6th on March 11, 2013, 10:37:48 PM
What is a good level for fear immunity piercing?
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: oslecamo on March 12, 2013, 03:32:04 PM
I prefer around 13, when mindblank becomes available.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Threadnaught on March 15, 2013, 11:29:00 AM
I've just been through the completed monsters list and still can't find a single Elder Evil. Does Zargon still need transferring from rule of cool? I'll see if I can get a link.

Edit: No idea how to directly link the post, I'm sure you've still got it stored somewhere Osle, but I'm bringing it here for you so you don't need to look for it anyway.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: oslecamo on March 15, 2013, 11:51:52 AM
Zargon is inside the Infernal spoiler, because of all the devils connections it has.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Mister Lamp on March 17, 2013, 08:11:00 PM
I'd like to try my hand at one of these. . . Any suggestions for where to start? Is it easier to do low or high CR creatures do you think?

I've got a few ideas of stuff. . .
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Concerned Ninja Citizen on March 17, 2013, 10:06:49 PM
I started with a couple monsters that were fairly low CR (3 and 5) and I found that a good way to ease into the creation process. Other people have taken the opposite route and jumped in with something formiddable and that's worked for them.

Large or small class, though, I would definitely advise starting with something that has a reasonable number of abilities of its own.  Monster classes where you have to take something that's basically just a pile of numbers and turn it into an interesting and balanced level progression are considerably harder, esp at first, than ones with enough abilities that you're more filling in gaps than inventing things from the ground up.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Rakoa on March 18, 2013, 05:56:29 PM
I'd like to try my hand at one of these. . . Any suggestions for where to start? Is it easier to do low or high CR creatures do you think?

I've got a few ideas of stuff. . .

I can't quite remember what my first monster class was, though I think it was the Tyrannosaurus Rex which was a bit higher CR than I should have tackled at that point. Oslecamo helped me flesh it out quite a bit though and I think it works nicely. The main thing though, as was said, is the abilities. The monsters are not supposed to be linear, and coming up with flavourful abilities that will also prove useful, and still rotate around the core monster's abilities/fluff can be a difficult task. Good luck!
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: bobthe6th on March 18, 2013, 08:44:34 PM
Started with The Titan... But it may be because the majority of my homebrew work has been base classes.

I found it nice to go through and pick out abilities from other classes that worked for what I had in mind. The majority of the Titan is from various giants, and the angel honestly.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Threadnaught on March 19, 2013, 09:42:26 AM
My first two attempts were finished and posted by Oslecamo, the amount (minimal) of editing they received is encouraging me to step in and build a whole class. Though my second attempt was mostly just a single idea, which is why it was so hard for me to expand on.

If you have a picture for the entire class, then it's going to be really easy to build most of it, otherwise you're going to have a hard time making something interesting.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Nanshork on March 19, 2013, 03:43:43 PM
In the index some monsters are listed as Awakened Whatever and some are Whatever, Awakened.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Concerned Ninja Citizen on March 20, 2013, 04:48:56 AM
And some (like the Iron Golem) don't have "Awakened" in their index entry at all.

Given that there's no functional difference between the monster class of an awakened creature and one of a creature with 3+ original Int, I would move that "awkened" be removed from the index entries entirely and be noted in the monster's post if it needs to be noted anywhere.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: oslecamo on March 22, 2013, 11:31:50 AM
If you care so much about it, fine, removed all awakeneds from the index.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: oslecamo on May 06, 2013, 05:35:39 PM
In other news, with my two new Phantasy Star campaigns starting, my D&D focus is going mostly for my Super Robot Wars d20 project (and of course running the half-dozen campaigns under my belt right now), so things will slow down here for a while.

However things aren't completely idle here, as FireInTheSky is cleaning up monster classes as he checks them for his expanded index and PMing them to me so I can edit them in. Unicorn, Urskan and some others down the alphabet already updated.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: TravelLog on May 12, 2013, 01:04:00 AM
Any chance of seeing new Cannomorphs soon?
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: oslecamo on May 12, 2013, 08:40:23 AM
Considering that they seem to have turned somewhat popular out of nowhere, probably.

But first let me post the Yellow Musk Creeper.

Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on May 19, 2013, 03:34:36 PM
Looking through the tables, there are so few ways of getting smaller. About as small as you can get whilst retaining fine manipulation appears to be tiny. But through mixing and matching, it's not so hard to get to Colossal with that ability.

Which is a pity, because I have a sudden desire to play a ninja that can sit in the palm of your hand. Hmm...
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: oslecamo on May 19, 2013, 03:40:56 PM
There's lots of big monsters out there. There's relatively few monsters under tiny, and fewer still get requested. What can I say?  :P
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on May 19, 2013, 03:50:31 PM
I believe I have found the most amazingly named creature ever: Apocalypse Frog.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Concerned Ninja Citizen on May 19, 2013, 04:09:06 PM
Looking through the tables, there are so few ways of getting smaller. About as small as you can get whilst retaining fine manipulation appears to be tiny. But through mixing and matching, it's not so hard to get to Colossal with that ability.

Which is a pity, because I have a sudden desire to play a ninja that can sit in the palm of your hand. Hmm...

Sneaky Sable got dispensation to reduce the Kami Shikigami (I think, it was one of the Kami anyway) to fine size for the Nintendo campaign. You could play a Pikmin Ninja, maybe?

Or just be tiny and manifest Compression (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/compression.htm)

God can do it too. Alter Size SDA can shrink you by 2 sizes at 8HD, so you can hit diminuitive if you start as a small race and fine if you start as a tiny one.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on May 19, 2013, 04:13:05 PM
... I am not playing an idiot vegetable in anything. :p

AA can get down to Diminutive, stacks with sneak attack, and retains five foot reach. It appears to have become my default class for these things, even though Fine would be nice. :lmao
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Concerned Ninja Citizen on May 19, 2013, 04:16:54 PM
Go into Psychic Rogue (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040723b) after you finish AA. Compression is on their power list.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on July 01, 2013, 04:37:52 PM
Hmm... I've been wondering: there's plenty of support for sorcerers and wizards etc. in here, but has there been anything for Warlocks and DFA's? Well, I suppose dragons count for DFA, but what about Warlocks? Not expecting so, just curious. :lmao
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: oslecamo on July 01, 2013, 04:44:35 PM
I guess it would be fair to allow classes with arcane pseudocasting to work for warlock invocations.

Speaking of which, whatever hapened to the interest on the monstrous builds subforum? I would add some things myself, but gotta to prepare a final presentation for day 3 of July so keeping forum activity to a minimum.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on July 01, 2013, 04:49:52 PM
Hmm, so how would that work out? Practically speaking, I mean. Would you have X levels of Wizard/Sorcerer casting and then a 1st-level Eldritch Blast and higher invocations?

In my case? Terrible attention span plus trying to get all the medals on this (http://www.kongregate.com/games/noanoa/elona-shooter?acomplete=elona) plus trying to get better at drawing.

Will need to take a look at the invisible displaced jelly wasp idea again, though, then gestalt it to get the total size of the swarm up to building scale. So who cares if it's a bunch of Diminutive wasps? They're invisible, acidic, dodge things like crazy, and there's millions of them. :D

EDIT: More practical example: Succubus 3/Warlock 2?
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: oslecamo on July 01, 2013, 05:32:41 PM
Knows one invocation of least level, take another level of warlock and you get a lesser invocation.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on July 01, 2013, 05:34:43 PM
I'm most curious about how it affects Eldritch Blast, honestly. Bit of an issue with multiclassing into it if you get the better invocations but that's still stuck at 1d6. :lmao
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: oslecamo on July 03, 2013, 06:04:06 AM
It should be fine to stack eldritch blast as well. Count both your warlock levels and pseudocasting monster levels to determine eldritch blast damage.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: picklejuice on August 01, 2013, 02:07:53 PM
One of the big reasons I want these classes spelled out is because I GM an Epic 6 "E6" game where the PCs max out at level 6. After level 6, every 5000 xp you can earn a new feat, so there's still "advancement" but you never get to "wuxia" superman levels like you do in a "normal" game of D&D.

http://dungeons.wikia.com/wiki/E6_%283.5e_Sourcebook%29

So anyhoo, I plan on making some of these "only available at X HD" abilities something you can get from E6 feats.

Is there a discussion of E6 monster classes anywhere?
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: oslecamo on August 01, 2013, 07:28:20 PM
One of the big reasons I want these classes spelled out is because I GM an Epic 6 "E6" game where the PCs max out at level 6. After level 6, every 5000 xp you can earn a new feat, so there's still "advancement" but you never get to "wuxia" superman levels like you do in a "normal" game of D&D.

http://dungeons.wikia.com/wiki/E6_%283.5e_Sourcebook%29

So anyhoo, I plan on making some of these "only available at X HD" abilities something you can get from E6 feats.

Is there a discussion of E6 monster classes anywhere?
No, but you're free to start a thread for it.

Is there a discussion thread highlighting each of the monster types (outsider, undead, etc) and marking which abilities in it should be available at what level? Immunities, not needing to eat or sleep, no critical hits or flanking, etc?

I'm guessing we're not concerned, here, with fiddly bits like the full explicitly spelled out "race" description including: Description, Personality, Physical description, Relations, Alignment, Lands, Religion, Language, Names, Adventurers, Ability mods at 1st level, Size, Speed, Vision, Weapon familiarity, Languages, and Favored class. That's fine. Most of that is campaign-specific anyway, and this is just a straight rules and abilities homebrew.
FireInTheSky produced an expanded index that covers specific details of each monster, altough it isn't updated with the latest monsters. You can find it right in the index thread.

Assuming it's already been discussed ad nauseum, where can I find a link to the nausious discussion of the "no ability penalties" thing I see in the core FAQ? I'm sure my concerns have already been voiced and I'd like to read about it on my own time rather than waste yours or the mods time asking them again.

Thanks!
Ironically enough, I've had nasious discussions about pretty much every aspect of this project over the years, but  "no ability penalties" wasn't one of them.

If anything, most original monsters don't have ability penalties at all.

Some monster classes do have ability score penalties like the Pixie and Nupperibbo (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=6243.0) and Pixie (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2215.0).

But overall, I simply don't want monster classes to be instantly shohorned in any specific role by having massive penalties on some ability scores and big bonus on others.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: FireInTheSky on August 01, 2013, 08:51:58 PM
Is there a discussion thread highlighting each of the monster types (outsider, undead, etc) and marking which abilities in it should be available at what level? Immunities, not needing to eat or sleep, no critical hits or flanking, etc?

I'm guessing we're not concerned, here, with fiddly bits like the full explicitly spelled out "race" description including: Description, Personality, Physical description, Relations, Alignment, Lands, Religion, Language, Names, Adventurers, Ability mods at 1st level, Size, Speed, Vision, Weapon familiarity, Languages, and Favored class. That's fine. Most of that is campaign-specific anyway, and this is just a straight rules and abilities homebrew.
FireInTheSky produced an expanded index that covers specific details of each monster, altough it isn't updated with the latest monsters.

Yet!
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: oslecamo on August 08, 2013, 04:26:00 PM
Spending vacations in a place with really crappy net connection (altough everything else is great). Will keep making D&D stuff at night on my laptop, but checking  here/updating stuff online, that will be bound to be unstable for the rest of this month.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: picklejuice on August 20, 2013, 11:06:59 AM
Purely for my own education on how all this fits together, I created a unified size chart taking into account traits such as slight build, powerful build, and what I call "clumsy" (Oslecamo's "Arrogant" trait to offset benefits of Tiny size)                                    
                                    
(click to show/hide)
                                    
                                    
Let me know if I got anything wrong, or could possibly add something.

I'm still pondering "size considered when about to be eaten whole" as a possible addition to the chart, and it got me to thinking - wouldn't a "slight" build have the disadvantage of being easier to swallow?
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: FireInTheSky on August 20, 2013, 12:22:13 PM
Purely for my own education on how all this fits together, I created a unified size chart taking into account traits such as slight build, powerful build, and what I call "clumsy" (Oslecamo's "Arrogant" trait to offset benefits of Tiny size)                                    

Here's a nicer lookin' table for ya:
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on August 20, 2013, 12:25:34 PM
I don't understand what that chart's trying to do at all. :|
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on August 25, 2013, 12:43:09 PM
Doesn't the fact that some classes have 'no class skills' mean that, effectively, you only have half the indicated skillpoints? Kind of... overkill. :/
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: oslecamo on August 25, 2013, 06:58:23 PM
What's overkill is the amount of immunities constructs and undeads get (and the mountain of splat and homebrew support undeads get).

Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on August 25, 2013, 07:04:31 PM
2+Int skillpoints. The immunities aren't exactly free. Result: 1-3 ranks in a skill per level, depending on int.

And pray to god that you actually have class skills from something else in that situation, otherwise you can't even have one skill maxed.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: oslecamo on August 25, 2013, 07:07:02 PM
Just dip something else to get some class skills.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on August 25, 2013, 07:15:21 PM
I was thinking more 'pray that you have class skills at level 1'.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Anomander on August 25, 2013, 08:26:16 PM
The compensation for the immunities are less than ideal and efficient but that's what is there and a lot of stuff has been built around it so let's just ignore it and keep it the way it is.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Anomander on September 06, 2013, 09:36:58 PM
I've thought about the LA 0 races and wondered: Hey... With the Monster Blooded and Monster Hybrid feats, we can make all sorts of insane monster hybrids, how about making insane LA 0 race hybrids? Say, Halfling/Orc. Or even an Elf/Orc/Gnome.

So I figured, perhaps it would be a good idea to make a 1 level long template that would be called, say, The Crossbreed.
It would have Monster Blooded and Monster Hybrid for requirement and allow you to take that monster class to gain the racial stuff of the chosen LA 0 base race on top of your starting race. It'd count as a member of both races and maybe get a disguise bonus to pass as a member of either race.
d8 hp, 4+int skill points, Bab medium, low saves, perhaps with your choice of one good save.
The template would be available to be taken multiple times (fulfilling the requirements each time)

I'm aware there are already crossbreed races (half-elf, half-orc, etc...) but I'd see this as the character's genetic heritage (or made-in-laboratory body) being particularly strong.

I can already see it: Ever looked at all the races in the Player's Handbook and thought: "Man, they are all awesome. I can't choose." Well, now you don't have to. You can be a human-elf-halfling-gnome-dwarf...-half-elf-half-orc-etc. Sweet, ain't it?

Though the Improved Monster Classes subforum might not be the best place for this.
Thoughts?
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Threadnaught on September 07, 2013, 08:11:21 AM
I've thought about the LA 0 races and wondered: Hey... With the Monster Blooded and Monster Hybrid feats, we can make all sorts of insane monster hybrids, how about making insane LA 0 race hybrids? Say, Halfling/Orc. Or even an Elf/Orc/Gnome.

So I figured, perhaps it would be a good idea to make a 1 level long template that would be called, say, The Crossbreed.
It would have Monster Blooded and Monster Hybrid for requirement and allow you to take that monster class to gain the racial stuff of the chosen LA 0 base race on top of your starting race. It'd count as a member of both races and maybe get a disguise bonus to pass as a member of either race.

Mongrelfolk, Fiend Folio 125. Could be interesting to make it useful for taking up a level or two (actual CR 1/3) while granting nothing but the benefits of the Monster Blooded/Hybrid Feats for as many Monster Classes as you want. I'd been thinking about bringing this up for a while, but kept deciding against it. Partially because the ability to mimic another humanoid's voice is something interesting and unique and also because, infinite Monster Hybrid for a 1 level dip? If it were d4HD, bad saves, no Skills and 2+Int skill points, then it may be too bad to use, though it could still be useful to dip into for any builds that require a lot of multiclassing. In fact, that's the whole point of me having the idea of it as a dead level.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Anomander on September 07, 2013, 08:32:20 AM
I thought of the mongrelfolk but I thought it was too much of a thing of its own.
I can see how it could be used as a Crossbreed transition class but the problem with it is that it is an actual LA 0 base race.

As for a monster class granting nothing but the benefits of the Monster Blooded/Hybrid Feats, I'd say that it isn't estimated as that much of an advantage. Oslecamo already made the Numan in his SRW campaign setting subforum. One of its abilities offers at least the benefit of the Monster Hybrid feat for every Monster Blooded feat you take, and it is an LA 0 base race.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: oslecamo on September 07, 2013, 11:59:58 AM
So I figured, perhaps it would be a good idea to make a 1 level long template that would be called, say, The Crossbreed.
It would have Monster Blooded and Monster Hybrid for requirement and allow you to take that monster class to gain the racial stuff of the chosen LA 0 base race on top of your starting race. It'd count as a member of both races and maybe get a disguise bonus to pass as a member of either race.
d8 hp, 4+int skill points, Bab medium, low saves, perhaps with your choice of one good save.
The template would be available to be taken multiple times (fulfilling the requirements each time)
...
Thoughts?

I'm not very sure I'm reading it right. If you already took Monster Hybrid and Monster Blooded, then you can already go for the respective monster class while keeping your previous racial stuff whitout need of any prc in between. :psyduck
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Anomander on September 07, 2013, 12:03:46 PM
You're half-way there. The goal isn't to enter monster classes, but to get the abilities/stats of more than one LA 0 base race.
Like get all the stats of both an elf and a dwarf, for example.

As is, you can be a LA 0 race an get the feats to get a monster class, but not another LA 0 race.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: oslecamo on September 07, 2013, 12:07:01 PM
So let's see if I'm geting this.

You need monster Blooded and Monster Hybrid to enter, but then you gain racial benefits of two LA 0 races of your choice that aren't the same as what you picked for Monster Blooded/Hybrid?

Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Anomander on September 07, 2013, 12:47:32 PM
Not necessarily.
The Monster Blooded feat's monster class choice could simply be the Crossbreed class. It could be specialized further by choosing what the desired LA 0 race of the Crossbreed would be, if only to make it clearer if the Monser Blooded feat would be taken more than once for Crossbreed.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: oslecamo on September 08, 2013, 04:09:27 PM
Sounds like you already have a solid plan, why don't you post a draft?
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Anomander on September 08, 2013, 06:19:47 PM
Well, I do have a very specific idea of the thing. Let's try.

Crossbreed (insert race here)
(http://)

(click to show/hide)

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on September 08, 2013, 06:32:04 PM
So... by combining the right creatures you can get +40 Strength/Con or something?
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Anomander on September 08, 2013, 06:41:23 PM
Yeaaaah. Why don't you try to make one and see what you end up with. I am skeptical as to how great the end result will be compared to the monster classes here granting good Str/Con adjustment increases per level.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on September 08, 2013, 06:43:03 PM
I... can't work out what the class features DO. Really. No clue at all.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Anomander on September 08, 2013, 06:54:16 PM
It is as written. You get the racial traits and abilities of the chosen race.
So say you are a dwarf and you take Crossbreed (Elf), you get all the things you'd have for being an elf on top of your dwarf things.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on September 08, 2013, 07:14:50 PM
Oooooh.

... you know, this would be a crappy thing to ever cross with human; it basically eats up humanity's advantage. Omnomnomnom. Guess it'd be best to cross with some sort of base monster for the type advantages, and a player race so you can use things that only target people...
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Anomander on September 08, 2013, 07:32:32 PM
Among other things.

I think it *could* work and stay balanced if it didn't require any Monster Blooded/Hybrid feat to get into them.
There may be a few exceptions but most races' benefits are about in line with or worse than what a level in your average monster class grants.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: oslecamo on September 09, 2013, 08:46:11 AM
Yeah, considering it's taking a whole level that doesn't give anything else it may work whitout any feat prerequisites.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Anomander on September 09, 2013, 11:14:15 AM
I'll make it so then.
It might be circumstantially a little too good if only because it makes it possible to get a monster class and then get the benefits of a base class without taking Monster Blooded and Monster Hybrid (since before the Crossbreed a base race would have needed the feats to enter a monster class).
If taking a level is compensation enough, then I'm fine with that balance fix.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Chrononaut on September 15, 2013, 02:16:29 AM
Thinking about taking a crack at filling out the entire set of Eladrin with the Tulani (in current concept: dream based gish) but it is complex for two reasons
A: It's CR 18 meaning a lot of levels to fill
B: It's actually GOT enough SLAs to justify being called a 'spellcaster' which all have to be scaled in.

In light of this, is it ok to have an in-progress post or would you prefer I work elsewhere and load the whole thing in?
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Concerned Ninja Citizen on September 15, 2013, 06:12:43 PM
For Crossbreed, is there a limit to how many times you can take it now the feat prereqs are gone?

Also, maybe add a line regarding size. Do you always gain the size of your crossbred race or can you choose either size if they're different?

As to "how broken is this really?"

Water Orc + Lesser Chaond = +4 to all physical stats in exchange for -2 to int and wis and -4 to cha.

Anthropomorphic Bat + Anthropomorphic Toad = +12 wis in exchange for crippling penalties to other stats but still, that's 30 wis at level 1 (or 2 really since you need a level of something else to make it useful.)

Beguiler + Lesser Wispling = +10 dex, +4 int, -6 str
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: oslecamo on September 15, 2013, 06:24:36 PM
Yeah, lesser outsiders and the RHD and LA 0 antros allow you to churn out some pretty strong ability score bonuses for the dip.

But provided you're not gaining any actual ability besides ability scores, I'm kinda fine with that.

If anything, make the Bab progression explicitly poor and reduce the skill points to 2+Int mod.

Thinking about taking a crack at filling out the entire set of Eladrin with the Tulani (in current concept: dream based gish) but it is complex for two reasons
A: It's CR 18 meaning a lot of levels to fill
B: It's actually GOT enough SLAs to justify being called a 'spellcaster' which all have to be scaled in.

In light of this, is it ok to have an in-progress post or would you prefer I work elsewhere and load the whole thing in?
Whatever you prefer. Most people here choose to post when they have a monster fully developed, but it's not uncommon for someone to first post an half-done draft and then fill it up over the following weeks.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Anomander on September 15, 2013, 07:25:03 PM
I think the Anthropomorphic animals as a whole are technically all covered by the Anthropomorphic Animal monster class.

There are no limits meant to be instated on how often the class could be taken.
But yeah, the cost for the ability scores are those acquired as part of being the races, but it also costs a level per race. Which is a pretty darn expensive thing when you think of every other thing a single level could grant.

Quote
If anything, make the Bab progression explicitly poor and reduce the skill points to 2+Int mod.
Alright. I thought it was taxing enough as is but why not.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: oslecamo on September 18, 2013, 12:57:47 PM
Any reasons why you still didn't post the crossbreed on its own thread? Or you want me to take care of it?

Plus
Did you put it in the Index? I do not see it.

I only add my own monster classes to the index when I have the next ready to post.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Anomander on September 18, 2013, 02:57:36 PM
Forgot it existed. Adding now.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Niu on October 10, 2013, 12:30:26 AM
Kinda curious why some awakened creatures, (Badger, Bear, possibly others) became Magical Beasts, while others, (Electric Eel, Boar, and a couple others) retained their normal type?
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: oslecamo on October 10, 2013, 05:39:42 AM
Incosistency oversight. Those specific examples should become magical beasts since that's what happen to awakened animals.

In non-animal cases however type remains unchanged.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: TiaC on October 23, 2013, 08:38:32 PM
How about a feat that lets [Good] creatures with spontaneous spellcasting cast sanctified spells?
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: oslecamo on October 24, 2013, 06:54:43 AM
Don't good creatures get sanctified spells by default? :???
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on October 24, 2013, 12:02:38 PM
Why would all their spells automatically gain a subtype?
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: TiaC on October 24, 2013, 01:07:41 PM
Don't good creatures get sanctified spells by default? :???
From BoED:Spellcasters prepare sanctified spells just as they do regular spells, and casters who do not prepare spells (including sorcerers and bards) cannot make use of them except from a scroll.

Since most of your celestials cast as favored souls, they can't cast sanctified spells without all five levels of exalted arcanist.(Which they don't qualify for as it's an arcane PrC.)
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: oslecamo on October 25, 2013, 09:23:19 PM
Added Sanctified Soul to the feat section (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=526.0).
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: oslecamo on November 10, 2013, 08:05:02 AM
Updated the Aasimar, Tiefling, Chaondi and Zenythri to have a second good save, 4 skill points per level, and the option of gaining +2 to one stat instead of a couple +1s.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: GuesssWho on December 21, 2013, 10:40:15 PM
Styx Dragon doesn't have Swim as a class skill, but does have Climb. Why is that?

Also, you might want to replace improved grapple with improved snatch.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: oslecamo on December 22, 2013, 02:55:59 PM
Done, thanks for pointing it out!
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Flay Crimsonwind on December 25, 2013, 01:54:10 PM
So I can't be the only person who loves the idea of hiring a 5th level npc/taking leadership to get a troll or a hellhound or a leprechaun, right? Oscle, I love your classes. Even if I can't turn it into a PC, there's always something I can do with them. Nice job on the Hound.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: GuesssWho on December 26, 2013, 12:26:04 AM
Oh, and one other thing--despite what the Draconomicon seems to think, you can't cast most cloud spells underwater. So an ink cloud spell might be useful.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: oslecamo on December 27, 2013, 08:47:26 PM
Ink? They're dragons, not squids. Added a clause that underwater the fog SLAs produce a dark miasma instead.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on December 27, 2013, 08:49:16 PM
Ink? They're dragons, not squids. Added a clause that underwater the fog SLAs produce a dark miasma instead.

Dragon, squid? What's the difference? :lmao

Give me a way to make things smaller already. ;-;
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: oslecamo on December 28, 2013, 11:30:27 AM
Fine, AA now can pick Size change twice to get down to diminutive. "Reverse Titanic creature" will still have to wait until you can provide a list of iconic stuff very small creatures are supposed to be able to do.

Also, changed the FAQ in that you now can trade size increases for +2 to a physical stat instead of +1.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: VennDygrem on December 28, 2013, 11:46:10 AM
Hmm, there are a lot of things tiny creatures are known to do in mythology, though they tend to be faeries; sprites and the like, thus those things tend to be included in those monsters when adapted to the game.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on December 28, 2013, 12:03:02 PM
First thing I can think of is using crockery as boats. @_@

... though I think they also have the easiest time getting past locked doors ever.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: VennDygrem on December 28, 2013, 12:06:25 PM
They're also usually incredibly fast and nimble, and are nearly impossible to hit unless you've got them trapped in an area effect. They're fantastic at hiding, and though they usually can't hit very hard, they can hit very precisely. Being able to hide on a creature and attack it while using your enemy's own body for cover/concealment so you don't get hit and can immediately hide again? Fantastic. :D
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on December 28, 2013, 12:09:06 PM
Sneak into someone's pockets? :p

Hm, if you take the last size change, you can use con instead of wisdom for monk abilities; would that also apply for the wisdom-based ninja stuff, or is it just the precision damage?
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: oslecamo on December 28, 2013, 02:47:58 PM
Ninjas are not monks. Where do people keep pulling that one up? :psyduck
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on December 28, 2013, 02:50:57 PM
Well, it has quite a lot of similar abilities (including the wis-to-AC thing), and uses Wisdom for a bunch of stuff. At least, this is the CA version. XD
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Leviathan on February 04, 2014, 02:06:38 AM
I was having trouble sleeping, so I made a spreadsheet of all the template classes in the index. The spreadsheet lists the number of levels each class has, which type(s) you can enter it with, how it changes your type, and any other prerequisites. It contains less information than FireInTheSky's index tables, but there isn't an index table for the templates.

If the "Entry Type" column is empty, that means you can enter the class from any type. Some classes require that you be "living"; in most campaigns, constructs, elementals, outsiders, and undead are not living, and all other types are. Because the prestige class only says "living" and doesn't list specific types, however, I put "living" in the "Other Requirements" column instead of in "Entry Type".

If the "Exit Type" column is empty, then the template doesn't change your type. Some lines in this column have a ____, which represents your original type. For example, Mineral Warrior doesn't change your type, but does add the Earth subtype, so its entry in this column reads "____ (Earth)".

The "Other Requirements" type uses some standard abbreviations; if you don't know what they stand for, feel free to ask. "Flavor" is a catch-all term for all kinds of prerequisites. It includes the rituals or ancestries required for some of the Half-X classes, the disease requirement for the Were-X classes, and anything that requires you to spend gp, among other things.

My primary goal with this spreadsheet was to make it easy to fill in holes with builds, where I know I have a few levels to spare (a common problem when building with monster classes) but can't think of a good dip. The spreadsheet includes the information I thought would be most useful for this purpose. If anybody wants me to add anything else, I will be so happy that you thought my work was useful that I won't mind digging through all 80 template classes (including Anomander's 22 zombies and the 17 Weresomethings). I'll also try to keep the spreadsheet updated if any new templates get added to the index thread.

Here's the link. If it doesn't work, yell at me and I'll try to fix it.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?key=0AsOBliihlOKTdG9UenN6a0RzVnZXUGtpZXlhal9maEE&output=html (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?key=0AsOBliihlOKTdG9UenN6a0RzVnZXUGtpZXlhal9maEE&output=html)
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: oslecamo on February 04, 2014, 01:57:33 PM
That looks pretty nice. One error I've spotted at first glance is that chaos cultist is supposed to be 3 levels long. You can make a post on the Index thread to drop/update the link if you want.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Leviathan on February 04, 2014, 03:02:45 PM
I'll go ahead and put it in the index thread. The nice thing about Google Docs is that the link automatically shows the latest version of the spreadsheet, so I can update the spreadsheet without having to edit a post. Speaking of updates, I fixed the Chaos Cultist levels.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Daedroth on February 11, 2014, 11:39:17 AM
I noticed something, True Dragons recieve ability at level 13 that is almost useless after lvl 6. Du you assume a D&D 3.0 type scaling or just give them the ability for fluff?
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: oslecamo on February 11, 2014, 02:18:01 PM
You mean Iron Scale,s aka DR/magic?

The thing is that D&D dragons indeed only gain DR/magic at relatively late in their lifes. Red Dragons only at CR 13 for example.

So I guess yes, it's supposed to be more of a fluff ability. They're still gaining d12 HD and full bab and sorceror casting, so not too shabby.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Threadnaught on February 14, 2014, 11:35:37 AM
2-4 creatures need removing from the waiting list and 1-2 of those creatures need adding to the index. Oh and there's two new requests for the waiting list.


Gazzien, if you're reading this, Ice Golem needs finishing up.


I need a suggestion for a Grappler that "Summons" creatures using it's own body to create the "Summons", I have an idea, but it's crazy. Though if someone mentions it, I'll just go with it immediately. Also, I may do something weird to the Bite Attack.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: oslecamo on February 16, 2014, 07:03:16 AM
2-4 creatures need removing from the waiting list and 1-2 of those creatures need adding to the index. Oh and there's two new requests for the waiting list.
Updated the list.

I need a suggestion for a Grappler that "Summons" creatures using it's own body to create the "Summons", I have an idea, but it's crazy. Though if someone mentions it, I'll just go with it immediately. Also, I may do something weird to the Bite Attack.
Closest thing I can remember to that is the Scouring Construct from MM V.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Threadnaught on February 16, 2014, 05:41:11 PM
2-4 creatures need removing from the waiting list and 1-2 of those creatures need adding to the index. Oh and there's two new requests for the waiting list.
Updated the list.

Thanks, though I do have a question.
Did you intentionally miss out the Evolved Template? It isn't one of the things I'm working on.

I need a suggestion for a Grappler that "Summons" creatures using it's own body to create the "Summons", I have an idea, but it's crazy. Though if someone mentions it, I'll just go with it immediately. Also, I may do something weird to the Bite Attack.
Closest thing I can remember to that is the Scouring Construct from MM V.

Nah man, I should've been a little more specific. I'm working on a Class based on a creature that "summons" using it's own body. The fluff for this creature is strange, it's also the reason I'm thinking of doing something about it's Bite. Something I have more of an idea on than any I've been stuck on.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: oslecamo on February 16, 2014, 08:57:56 PM
If it's a creature that already exists, why don't you just tell us its name? :P

Also, forgot the Evolved Undead template, added it now.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Threadnaught on February 17, 2014, 11:41:22 AM
If it's a creature that already exists, why don't you just tell us its name? :P

Also, forgot the Evolved Undead template, added it now.

Boneyard. A creature made of other creature's bones, that summons Skeletons, from itself. I'm also thinking Strength Damage for the bone taking. Reach 0 Strength and you're boneless like fried chicken.
Elder Evils made me curious about them, Libris Mortis made me want to build one. It's a weird one.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Gazzien on February 26, 2014, 10:57:39 AM
2-4 creatures need removing from the waiting list and 1-2 of those creatures need adding to the index. Oh and there's two new requests for the waiting list.


Gazzien, if you're reading this, Ice Golem needs finishing up.


I need a suggestion for a Grappler that "Summons" creatures using it's own body to create the "Summons", I have an idea, but it's crazy. Though if someone mentions it, I'll just go with it immediately. Also, I may do something weird to the Bite Attack.
Oh dear, and I've had the changes in mind for a while. I'll go do that.

Edit; apologies for posting in the wrong thread, Osc.  :banghead
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: oslecamo on April 03, 2014, 05:06:28 PM
Buffed up the multi-headed creature, now gains extra heads at every level and strange skills at every level after 4th.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: oslecamo on April 04, 2014, 07:17:44 PM
Right, this is something that has been brought up over the years: undead monster classes class skills (or lack thereoff).

It's my opinion that undead traits are just too strong that they demand a penalty, thus weak Bab and only one good save. But those are hardly drawbacks when undeads are immune to most things that demand saves and more often than not have very dangerous natural weapons and/or touch attacks. Thus, no class skills. Also, they're undeads, their brains are long rotten if they have them at all.

Still, I keep getting people complaining that undeads should have plenty of class skills, just like everybody else that isn't immune to crits and over half of the bad effects of the game. It seems to be an overwhelming opinion. I may just cave in to peer pressure. Or it may be random noise. Only one way to find out!

So, who around here is for/against adding class skills to the undead monster classes?
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on April 04, 2014, 07:26:57 PM
If by 'support wizards on steroids' you mean 'translated the FR magical heyday into a class', and therefore me... *

Yes, I think undead should at least get spot and listen as class skills. They have crappy skillpoints and crappy BAB, at least being able to use those skills normally is not going to wreck a game. With the ability to play an Undead 20, it is necessary that these sort of things are included. Otherwise, you end up with a character that's a combat monster--but utterly useless outside of a fight. In other words, you build an optimised T5 character, or a T4. And that isn't what your homebrew seems to push for. :/

*And I repeat: an Arcanist should not exist in any modern setting. It is a FR-exclusive concept, and even then takes place in a time period before games are ever set. Yes, it is broken; this is why Karsus could hijack a Greater God with no drawbacks if he had picked anyone other than Mystryl. But this is a fluff-specific class and, if you're playing a game set in Netheril, is exactly what you expect. Powerful spellcasters rule city states with absolute power, anything can be done if you try hard enough, and the empire's only enemy are abominations that sap the very life from their lands.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Leviathan on April 04, 2014, 07:50:08 PM
Undead immunities are mostly useful in combat. Skills, on the other hand, are mostly useful out of combat. Without spells (or similarly broad abilities), the main way for an undead character to be useful outside of combat is with skills.

Instead of compensating for the immunities in an unrelated area where undead are already somewhat weak, I suggest that you reduce the immunities to a level you are more comfortable with. For example, some of the immunities might be replaced with a bonus to saves (or for critical hits, replaced with some level of fortification). If you do this, you should give players a way to get the full immunities: as class capstones, through feats, or even automatically with hit die.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on April 04, 2014, 07:52:24 PM
Undead immunities are mostly useful in combat. Skills, on the other hand, are mostly useful out of combat. Without spells (or similarly broad abilities), the main way for an undead character to be useful outside of combat is with skills.

Instead of compensating for the immunities in an unrelated area where undead are already somewhat weak, I suggest that you reduce the immunities to a level you are more comfortable with. For example, some of the immunities might be replaced with a bonus to saves (or for critical hits, replaced with some level of fortification). If you do this, you should give players a way to get the full immunities: as class capstones, through feats, or even automatically with hit die.

It probably shouldn't take a full 20 levels to get full undead immunities. Making the racial traits HD based, yes; suggesting it take the whole class to get? Not so good.

More like the way incorporeality works for ghosts than a Tarrasque's regeneration, I guess.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: ketaro on April 04, 2014, 08:19:38 PM
If you MUST be obliged (forced) to add class skills to undead, I agree that they wouldn't need anything beyond Spot & Listen.

I would not be for rewriting the undead type's bonuses. Why shouldn't an undead creature be immune to save or dies? Because there's nothing to kill!
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Leviathan on April 04, 2014, 08:34:50 PM
Undead immunities are mostly useful in combat. Skills, on the other hand, are mostly useful out of combat. Without spells (or similarly broad abilities), the main way for an undead character to be useful outside of combat is with skills.

Instead of compensating for the immunities in an unrelated area where undead are already somewhat weak, I suggest that you reduce the immunities to a level you are more comfortable with. For example, some of the immunities might be replaced with a bonus to saves (or for critical hits, replaced with some level of fortification). If you do this, you should give players a way to get the full immunities: as class capstones, through feats, or even automatically with hit die.

It probably shouldn't take a full 20 levels to get full undead immunities. Making the racial traits HD based, yes; suggesting it take the whole class to get? Not so good.

More like the way incorporeality works for ghosts than a Tarrasque's regeneration, I guess.

To my knowledge, no non-template undead class has 20 levels; of those if FireInTheSky's tables, only five of them have more than 10 levels. By "capstone", I meant "something toward the end of a class to reward taking several levels in the same class" (instead of multiclassing), not "something you get at 20th level".


I think that undead should get their full immunities no later than other classes could accomplish the same thing (typically with spells). For example, any undead should be immune to mind-affecting by level 15, when a wizard could cast mind blank.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on April 04, 2014, 08:38:49 PM
Undead immunities are mostly useful in combat. Skills, on the other hand, are mostly useful out of combat. Without spells (or similarly broad abilities), the main way for an undead character to be useful outside of combat is with skills.

Instead of compensating for the immunities in an unrelated area where undead are already somewhat weak, I suggest that you reduce the immunities to a level you are more comfortable with. For example, some of the immunities might be replaced with a bonus to saves (or for critical hits, replaced with some level of fortification). If you do this, you should give players a way to get the full immunities: as class capstones, through feats, or even automatically with hit die.

It probably shouldn't take a full 20 levels to get full undead immunities. Making the racial traits HD based, yes; suggesting it take the whole class to get? Not so good.

More like the way incorporeality works for ghosts than a Tarrasque's regeneration, I guess.

To my knowledge, no non-template undead class has 20 levels; of those if FireInTheSky's tables, only five of them have more than 10 levels. By "capstone", I meant "something toward the end of a class to reward taking several levels in the same class" (instead of multiclassing), not "something you get at 20th level".

Most undead seem to be only 1 or 2 HD; most of those that aren't have more stringent requirements (Death Knight, Lich) and can more or less start off with the full suite without issue.

EDIT: More accurately, those undead who have requirements can start off with all immunities without issue. Most of the rest are either only one or two levels and the skill loss is more baffling than substantial; the others get the immunities for a substantial level investment... and skills are hardly going to alter their abilities. Hi, ball of entropic doom!
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Anomander on April 04, 2014, 08:43:00 PM
I stand by my original opinion.
The issue isn't the progressions. Undead traits should be balanced out with something else entirely.

As long as you don't balance them with something else, I believe that you should stand by your current system and try to balance them out with whatever you can find to do that. Skill points included.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Rakoa on April 04, 2014, 10:37:34 PM
I would agree that granting Undead skills is not a bad idea. Undead traits are powerful indeed, but having absolutely no skills can be quite crippling to a class. And in some cases, goes completely against the concept of the monster. For example, what self-respecting Vampire is going to play Count Dracula with no ranks in Diplomacy? Granted, this can be augmented to an extent with Blood Charges, but you get the idea.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Gazzien on April 05, 2014, 03:06:49 AM
Give undead some skills. Doesn't need to be much, but looking at a class and going "aaaand I have no-where to put skill ranks without paying through the nose" kinda hurts.

Honestly? Just give them spot, listen, maybe craft/profession, and be done with it.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: oslecamo on April 05, 2014, 06:58:47 AM
People realize that beind undead allows you to pick up infinite bonus to spot and listen (http://dndtools.eu/feats/libris-mortis-the-book-of-the-dead--71/lifesense--1764/) with just a feat, right?

Anyway, in D&D you can already pick class skills by spending a feat, so I guess I could make a bundle like that

Grave Memories
Pre-requisite: One level in any one undead monster class
Benefit: You gain Balance (Dex), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Knowledge(Int), Profession(Wis), Survival (Wis) and Swim (Str) as class skills. They only count as class skills for that undead class. You can only pick up to one kind of Craft, Knowledge and Profession skill to gain as class skills this way.

Nope, no spot or listen, because most other classes don't gain them, so I don't see why corpses whitout actual eyes or ears should get easy acess to it. And again, Lifesense.

On other news:
-Mummy lacked any actual ability besides undead traits at first level, now gains Lesser Mummy Rot.
-Buffed up the Nightwalker's chilling touch and Darkness Skin a bit.
-Added class skills to the construct classes that lacked them.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on April 05, 2014, 09:09:32 AM
No, that just messes with light levels; that does not negate the existence of cover or allow you to identify everything about your surroundings. If definitely isn't infinite spot or listen bonuses; if I have good darkvision that equals the same thing.

That feat doesn't solve the problem. Two words: Evolved Undead (or Vampire -> Vampire Lord). Plus you don't retroactively gain skillpoints, so you'd better enter later undead classes on a multiple of three! Death Knights, too, or Ghosts... or anything that basically assumes you can enter it on any level you don't get a feat.

And how many good homebrew classes completely lack access to all sensory skills?
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Stratovarius on April 05, 2014, 10:39:04 AM
As a more concrete example, take a Bard 6 or Dread Necromancer 6 (Both Tier 3 classes) against a Bloodhulk 6. Which is stronger and more capable? In combat, it's going to depend a fair bit on precise optimization, but out of combat, both the Bard and DN are far more useful than the Bloodhulk, between access to spells and skills. The Bloodhulk, well, he's really good at lifting heavy objects, so if you're building a fortress he's very useful. But that's rather specific. Giving him a few skills means he can do a couple of things out of combat, or at least not be at perpetual risk of ambush.

Bluntly, the biggest drawback for being undead is not having spells. And Undead only have +1/2 BAB, so they aren't brilliant at hitting lots in combat either (excluding magic items, etc.). A good benchmark of melee combat effectiveness is the Warblade or Crusader, so unless the undead creature is running roughly even with them, they are probably in need of a boost.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: oslecamo on April 18, 2014, 03:26:22 PM
No, that just messes with light levels; that does not negate the existence of cover or allow you to identify everything about your surroundings. If definitely isn't infinite spot or listen bonuses; if I have good darkvision that equals the same thing.
Last time I checked, darkvision doesn't have a "revealing itself and all features" clause. Lifesight is basically the equivalent of mindsight.

And how many good homebrew classes completely lack access to all sensory skills?
Wizard and cleric don't have spot or listen. Anybody ever complained those ones need them as class skills? Many wizard and cleric clones that are extremely popular online don't get those either.

As a more concrete example, take a Bard 6 or Dread Necromancer 6 (Both Tier 3 classes) against a Bloodhulk 6. Which is stronger and more capable? In combat, it's going to depend a fair bit on precise optimization, but out of combat, both the Bard and DN are far more useful than the Bloodhulk, between access to spells and skills. The Bloodhulk, well, he's really good at lifting heavy objects, so if you're building a fortress he's very useful. But that's rather specific. Giving him a few skills means he can do a couple of things out of combat, or at least not be at perpetual risk of ambush.
Bloodhulk class gains a racial bonus to spot and listen checks in case you missed it.

Bluntly, the biggest drawback for being undead is not having spells. And Undead only have +1/2 BAB, so they aren't brilliant at hitting lots in combat either (excluding magic items, etc.). A good benchmark of melee combat effectiveness is the Warblade or Crusader, so unless the undead creature is running roughly even with them, they are probably in need of a boost.

Bloodhulk again, he's gaining Str boosts while Warblade and Crusader... Aren't. And unlike Bab, Str boosts also directly boost your melee damage. Warblade and crusader have maneuvers, bloodhulk has some tricks of his own. Warblade and crusader have armor and weapon proficiencies, bloodhulk has natural armor, extra HP and can grab the proficiencies anyway later on with a dip.

And then bloodhulk also shruggs off poison, mind-affecting, critical hits. Warblade and crusader... Die to a lucky crit from some random 1st level orc with a waraxe. They grab diseases when they enter the cursed swamp. And then they can't go in the underwater caverns because they need, to, you know, breath.

I guess that if you can grab undead immunities for free, then yes bloodhulk comes up behind. But by RAW you can't just grab undead immunities for free, and I have no intention of making them free around here either.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on April 18, 2014, 03:30:32 PM
No, that just messes with light levels; that does not negate the existence of cover or allow you to identify everything about your surroundings. If definitely isn't infinite spot or listen bonuses; if I have good darkvision that equals the same thing.
Last time I checked, darkvision doesn't have a "revealing itself and all features" clause. Lifesight is basically the equivalent of mindsight.

You're reading stuff into it that isn't there. Darkvision does have that clause: if it's pitch black, normally I cannot see anything. If I have darkvision, then I can see all the features of something and its surroundings. All that line is saying is that the illumination isn't just a bright light alerting you to the presence of life, it's something you can see by.

Quote
And how many good homebrew classes completely lack access to all sensory skills?
Wizard and cleric don't have spot or listen. Anybody ever complained those ones need them as class skills? Many wizard and cleric clones that are extremely popular online don't get those either.

How many good homebrew classes, I said. Things that are, essentially, clones of the most broken classes in the game? Not really.

Quote
And then bloodhulk also shruggs off poison, mind-affecting, critical hits. Warblade and crusader... Die to a lucky crit from some random 1st level orc with a waraxe. They grab diseases when they enter the cursed swamp. And then they can't go in the underwater caverns because they need, to, you know, breath.

Bloodhulk dies due to a lucky hit from a 1st level orc with a waraxe, too. If it's not at full health? Well, a first level Bloodhulk has either 22 or 24 HP. So, I roll a 12 for my damage roll. Plus 5 from strength and a two handed weapon. Plus six because it's slashing and it got lucky on the bonus damage. 23 damage already. If you're on full HP, at best you have exactly one HP left.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: oslecamo on April 18, 2014, 04:48:46 PM
No, that just messes with light levels; that does not negate the existence of cover or allow you to identify everything about your surroundings. If definitely isn't infinite spot or listen bonuses; if I have good darkvision that equals the same thing.
Last time I checked, darkvision doesn't have a "revealing itself and all features" clause. Lifesight is basically the equivalent of mindsight.

You're reading stuff into it that isn't there. Darkvision does have that clause: if it's pitch black, normally I cannot see anything. If I have darkvision, then I can see all the features of something and its surroundings. All that line is saying is that the illumination isn't just a bright light alerting you to the presence of life, it's something you can see by.
You do realize that lifesight is usually considered one of the best special senses out there, in par with mindsight and the like, right?

By your interpretation, lifesight is completely redundant with darkvision. And undeads get darkvision by default. Meaning you're claiming that a lot of guides out there advise you to get an useless feat.

Quote
And how many good homebrew classes completely lack access to all sensory skills?
Wizard and cleric don't have spot or listen. Anybody ever complained those ones need them as class skills? Many wizard and cleric clones that are extremely popular online don't get those either.
How many good homebrew classes, I said. Things that are, essentially, clones of the most broken classes in the game? Not really.
Well, the problem here is that "good" is quite the subjective word. Sirpercival's warcrafter isn't a spellcaster, doesn't have sensory skills, and is extremely popular.

Quote
And then bloodhulk also shruggs off poison, mind-affecting, critical hits. Warblade and crusader... Die to a lucky crit from some random 1st level orc with a waraxe. They grab diseases when they enter the cursed swamp. And then they can't go in the underwater caverns because they need, to, you know, breath.

Bloodhulk dies due to a lucky hit from a 1st level orc with a waraxe, too. If it's not at full health? Well, a first level Bloodhulk has either 22 or 24 HP. So, I roll a 12 for my damage roll. Plus 5 from strength and a two handed weapon. Plus six because it's slashing and it got lucky on the bonus damage. 23 damage already. If you're on full HP, at best you have exactly one HP left.
Which is still more than -11, and also more than enough to punch the orc back and win the battle.  :p

Mind you, I meant more around levels 3-4, where the waraxe orc can still one-shot living PCs, while an undead is shrugging it off like a boss.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on April 18, 2014, 05:43:38 PM
No, that just messes with light levels; that does not negate the existence of cover or allow you to identify everything about your surroundings. If definitely isn't infinite spot or listen bonuses; if I have good darkvision that equals the same thing.
Last time I checked, darkvision doesn't have a "revealing itself and all features" clause. Lifesight is basically the equivalent of mindsight.

You're reading stuff into it that isn't there. Darkvision does have that clause: if it's pitch black, normally I cannot see anything. If I have darkvision, then I can see all the features of something and its surroundings. All that line is saying is that the illumination isn't just a bright light alerting you to the presence of life, it's something you can see by.
You do realize that lifesight is usually considered one of the best special senses out there, in par with mindsight and the like, right?

By your interpretation, lifesight is completely redundant with darkvision. And undeads get darkvision by default. Meaning you're claiming that a lot of guides out there advise you to get an useless feat.

Not redundant, since Darkvision has a hard cap distance limit, and doesn't centre itself on living creatures. I do not, however, agree with guides that say it's an outright amazing sense. Unless the DM's going to rule that no amount of hiding skills or abilities are useful. But that's the DM making it an infinite spot check.

And it also completely fails for any other use of spot than 'oh, hey, living thing'.

Quote
Quote
And how many good homebrew classes completely lack access to all sensory skills?
Wizard and cleric don't have spot or listen. Anybody ever complained those ones need them as class skills? Many wizard and cleric clones that are extremely popular online don't get those either.
How many good homebrew classes, I said. Things that are, essentially, clones of the most broken classes in the game? Not really.
Well, the problem here is that "good" is quite the subjective word. Sirpercival's warcrafter isn't a spellcaster, doesn't have sensory skills, and is extremely popular.

That's one. Now, how many do have those as class skills?

Quote
Quote
And then bloodhulk also shruggs off poison, mind-affecting, critical hits. Warblade and crusader... Die to a lucky crit from some random 1st level orc with a waraxe. They grab diseases when they enter the cursed swamp. And then they can't go in the underwater caverns because they need, to, you know, breath.

Bloodhulk dies due to a lucky hit from a 1st level orc with a waraxe, too. If it's not at full health? Well, a first level Bloodhulk has either 22 or 24 HP. So, I roll a 12 for my damage roll. Plus 5 from strength and a two handed weapon. Plus six because it's slashing and it got lucky on the bonus damage. 23 damage already. If you're on full HP, at best you have exactly one HP left.
Which is still more than -11, and also more than enough to punch the orc back and win the battle.  :p

Mind you, I meant more around levels 3-4, where the waraxe orc can still one-shot living PCs, while an undead is shrugging it off like a boss.
[/quote]

More than -11? Only if you're at full HP.

Though yes, at level 3, of course the creature with an intentionally bloated HP pool is going to survive a critical better.

So, what abilities does this have at level 3? More HP, a rather small STR bonus at this stage, some AC (but not actual armour), the ability to translate its HP pool of 52 into save rerolls as well as... well, HP, and an okayish slam attack. And something that's still technically worse than just having spot and listen as class skills. Meanwhile, it takes extra damage from anything pointy, and absolutely sucks at anything other than hitting something that happens to be right next to it.

So I guess it's not all that different from a barbarian with some immunities stacked on top.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Stratovarius on April 18, 2014, 05:54:35 PM
To give a 4th level example to compare against, Simell (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=84125) is a Feral Skarn Barbarian 1/Totemist 2 that played in one of my campaigns on BG. This (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=2383.msg100629#msg100629) is what his full attack action looked like.

Granted, there was a fair amount of Op-Fu being utilized there, but it gives an upper bound on what a good melee character can do.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: oslecamo on May 12, 2014, 12:28:04 PM
So, I was thinking of making the Dokufu a prc of the Monstrous Spider. How does it sound?

Not redundant, since Darkvision has a hard cap distance limit, and doesn't centre itself on living creatures. I do not, however, agree with guides that say it's an outright amazing sense. Unless the DM's going to rule that no amount of hiding skills or abilities are useful. But that's the DM making it an infinite spot check.
You're still disagreeing with what's considered a pretty general ruling.

And it also completely fails for any other use of spot than 'oh, hey, living thing'.
Which is what Spot is used 90% of the time.

That's one. Now, how many do have those as class skills?
I'll make you a counter argument-How many bad classes have Spot and Listen as class skills? I'm not sure we can agree on how many exactly, but I believe we can agree that the answer is higher than zero.

And with this I demonstrate that having certain class skills is not by any means the sign of a bad or good class. After all, you yourself are playing two of them right now.

So I guess it's not all that different from a barbarian with some immunities stacked on top.

Barbarian+. Aka warblade/crusader equivalent. I'm perfectly fine with that to be honest.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on May 12, 2014, 01:24:01 PM
Yes, I am going to disagree with a general ruling if I think it's a stupid one. Ruling it as autospot makes no sense. That's saying that 1) the presence of living things means you know WHERE, and 2) there aren't so many living things in most environments it doesn't screw it up. Trees should make any 'find this' function utterly useless on top of that.

Warblade / Crusader has a better chance of not sitting around twiddling their thumbs outside of a fight.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: oslecamo on May 12, 2014, 02:01:15 PM
Trees and other inanimate plants are not considered creatures by D&D rules, they're treated as inanimate objects. And lifesense only works on creatures. Now if you're trying to spot somewhere inside a crowd it isn't that useful yes, but luckily the game is dungeons and dragons, not city intrigue and find the culprit from the innocents. Double so if you're playing an undead.

And again, immunities allow for plenty of utility when you think about it:
-No need for sleep means an undead can take care of all sentry shifts.
-No need for rest means they can cover a lot more distance before magic travel becomes available. Heck, for the stronger ones, they can probably carry the rest of the party!
-Auto breath-underwater/poisonous mists, unlocking acess to all kinds of terrain the warblade and crusader can only dream of exploring without magic help.
-While the crusader and warblade need to worry about things such as food and potable water when not fighting, the undead can go take care of other stuff.
-Immunity to Fort saves means they can keep going in the most extreme weather conditions.

So basically, they may not be as skilled, but undeads can keep going all day any place. 24 hours of average work in virtually any condtion can easily measure to 8 hours of good work in just favorable conditions.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on May 12, 2014, 02:07:25 PM
Remind me to use awaken plant on every tree in one world.

Whilst they can keep going indefinitely, that isn't useful for the overwhelming majority of circumstances. They're not really contributing by not needing assistance go do these things. The most useful thing is 'can go underwater', but that isn't a highly in demand ability.*

*I am reminded to play the ocean giant at some point.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: oslecamo on May 12, 2014, 03:04:14 PM
Sooo, would it finally satisfy you if I, say, went around and added small fluffy thematic utility abilities to the 1st level of each non-prc undead class? :p
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Anomander on May 12, 2014, 03:57:06 PM
What I think would actually work best is if there were an Undead class and a Construct class.
They would be about 2 levels long and have the usual bad BAB, saves and so on common to the current undead and constructs.
They would have access to a class ability similar to Panty Plate from the Captured One prestige class that would grant them their undead/construct immunities.
All undead and construct creatures would then no longer be getting their type immunities unless they invest in the Undead/Construct class to get them.
That way undead/construct monster classes are no longer limited to have their entire class crippled for getting a bunch of immunities on their very first level.
I think it would solve the problem of granting a bunch of immunities for a level dip in an undead/construct monster class.
It could also be a way to turn anything into an undead/construct version of the original creature.

Whether or not those levels *must* be taken to progress further into an undead/construct monster class is a different issue.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on May 12, 2014, 04:06:02 PM
Not so much for templates. Things where the undead is the WHOLE class? Would help.

^ No. Just... no. Two levels wasted defeats the entire point of these classes. As does 'no CR 1 undead'.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Anomander on May 12, 2014, 04:26:19 PM
They are not wasted. You get a bunch of immunities, with perhaps something else. Could be all into a single level instead if 2 levels is too much.
They could be optional and you'd be able to take levels in your preferred undead/construct monster class without getting any undead/construct immunities.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on May 12, 2014, 06:58:46 PM
They're wasted, because they're a level tax and about as much fun as taxes. And mean you're basically setting the lowest level to be undead and not take undead levels as level 4.

... also a glorious way to make minimalistic undead templates too much trouble to bother with. Get killed and become a ghost? Have fun functioning as alive until you've put four levels into it. Not like that's 1/5 of all the things you'll ever get.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Anomander on May 12, 2014, 07:34:51 PM
I'm not sure you're understanding this right.

You're still undead. Negative energy still heals you instead of positive energy. You are still not a living creature.
You however do not get immunity to:
(click to show/hide)
You can get all the undead monster class levels you want, you just won't have the immunities unless you get the undead levels for them.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on May 12, 2014, 07:37:14 PM
I am understanding this right. You're basically suggesting two levels that are utterly devoid of interesting content to actually function as undead. It's like requiring two levels of commoner before getting to take another class, with the bonus that you have chicken infested. :|
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Anomander on May 12, 2014, 07:57:01 PM
If its not interesting content to you then there is no point arguing about it. Just don't take them.
One/Two level of commoner doesn't grant you all these immunities otherwise people would be taking them. It would actually on the other side allow you to get normal undead class levels that are more interesting instead of getting them gimped for the immunities they get at first level.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on May 12, 2014, 08:17:17 PM
The undead classes are interesting; the non-template classes simply have trouble being anything other than animate weapons of destruction. Making the immunities take two more levels to get* isn't going to help this much at all.

*Which is especially bad value for the more easily acquired templates.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Anomander on May 12, 2014, 08:34:33 PM
They can be anything non-undead monster classes are. If the immunities become a level or two add-on that can be put on at any time (if at all) to those classes, then it allows them to be more interesting classes. That's the whole point of the suggestion.

The easily acquired templates can be handled in a way of their own. Some offer enough penalties to compensate for the immunities and could still grant them. Others do not, they offer them while being otherwise no different than non-undead/construct templates in power. So they basically grant them for a level dip among other things and the standard penalties being applied to those classes (no class skills, bad bab and suches) aren't much of a balance point to compensate.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: ketaro on May 12, 2014, 09:04:13 PM
Anomander, your idea is basically the same as adding a LA+2 to every Undead character that WANTS the immunities that were behind the entire decision to be an Undead character. The only difference is still getting HP for those sacrificed levels.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Anomander on May 12, 2014, 09:37:46 PM
I'd say the entire reason someone would want to be a mummy would be... playing a mummy. The entire reason for taking levels in nightwalker would be being a nightwalker. Because it is interesting to you. Not the immunities themselves.
If you only want to be an undead character for the immunities, you could just take the one or two levels to be an undead character with those immunities. It would effectively be a template to just be undead with undead immunities. Or a construct with construct immunities.
So you could be an undead Troll by taking 1 level of Troll and 1 level of Undead to be a troll undead with undead immunities.
If you just want to play a Wight, then you can take all the levels of Wight and leave it at that.
If you could take 1 level that gives you bad progressions for BAB, saves, no class skills, a good HD and a bunch of abilities, it would be way better than an LA. It is actually a pretty good investment.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: ketaro on May 12, 2014, 10:03:27 PM
So, I was thinking of making the Dokufu a prc of the Monstrous Spider. How does it sound?

I'm not sure, but I don't think I like that...It's a fairly different creature, in my opinion.
Like a mountain dwelling shapechanging hermit with a spider motif. And then the other way around at the same time...
I feel like it could also be a decent pseudo-sorcerer class with a penchant for illusions and mind-effecting stuff. Despite that the original doesn't actually have spellcasting, it technically could be loosely inferred that it is still has like a CL of 20 just from the wording of it's Alternate Form  :tongue
And it has an advancement even beyond the HD True Dragons seem to be able to reach so the class could maybe be taken in a way in regards to spiders like how True Dragons are towards normal Dragons...
But that's just my opinion. I do love how incredibly interesting Dokufu come across as :D
Maybe some inspiration could come from looking at the Jorogumo that I think they're based off of?
Although that would make them seem better as a PrC for Monstrous Spiders.....huh.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: oslecamo on May 13, 2014, 07:29:03 AM
Not so much for templates. Things where the undead is the WHOLE class? Would help.

Will work on it then.

So, I was thinking of making the Dokufu a prc of the Monstrous Spider. How does it sound?

I'm not sure, but I don't think I like that...It's a fairly different creature, in my opinion.
Like a mountain dwelling shapechanging hermit with a spider motif. And then the other way around at the same time...
I feel like it could also be a decent pseudo-sorcerer class with a penchant for illusions and mind-effecting stuff. Despite that the original doesn't actually have spellcasting, it technically could be loosely inferred that it is still has like a CL of 20 just from the wording of it's Alternate Form  :tongue
And it has an advancement even beyond the HD True Dragons seem to be able to reach so the class could maybe be taken in a way in regards to spiders like how True Dragons are towards normal Dragons...
But that's just my opinion. I do love how incredibly interesting Dokufu come across as :D
Maybe some inspiration could come from looking at the Jorogumo that I think they're based off of?
Although that would make them seem better as a PrC for Monstrous Spiders.....huh.

Eerr, there's really nothing in OA dokufu that suggests it is a spellcaster. Its only magic ability is the alternate form, and "as CL 20 shapechange" was just common wording for high CR monsters Alternate Form in 3.0.

And as you just pointed out, its inspiration seems  indeed to be the Jorogumo, that is basically a monstrous spider that can turn into an human. It likes to fool people yes, but it does so by transforming into a regular human, not by casting illusions.

Besides if you just want a spellcaster with a spider motiff, there's other ways already available you can accomplish that. Polymorph, werespider, druid with vermin wildshape, you name it. Heck, the Aranea (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=534.0) already is a spellcaster spider with an humanoid alternate form that throws webs in a single package!

So you could be an undead Troll by taking 1 level of Troll and 1 level of Undead to be a troll undead with undead immunities.

Or you could be a troll skeleton. Or a troll vampire. Or a troll ghost. Or a troll Death Knight. Or pick monster blooded and monster hybrid and dive into one of the many undead classes.

Or if you consider that a mummy is a completely normal living being that just happens to be wrapped in bandages, well, you don't even need a level for that. Wrap your troll in bandages. Now you have your living troll mummy!
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Anomander on May 13, 2014, 10:43:19 AM
All valid options.

The immunity level(s) could be put on top of any of those (unless the class already gives enough penalties to counterbalance them at its first level). Already having a level in an undead class could perhaps even be a requirement.
The immunities could even scale with HD for a single level. Its a pretty solid level compared to what many classes get on certain of their first 3 levels.

That way things like 1 level of awakened skeleton wouldn't be giving you the same quality of class abilities and ability score increase as a level in anything else with a bunch of immunities as a bonus, all for the amazingly low price of a single level of bad BaB, fort and ref saves and low skill points without class skills.

As I said, even if a player would choose not to get the immunities, the undead character would still be still undead. Be affected by things that affect undead creatures. Negative energy would still heal it instead of positive energy. It would not count as a living creature for the purpose of things that affect living creatures.

I doubt the immunities being a defining point of being undead is a just argument since many abilities that define certain creatures in many monster classes are not available at first level. Them being part of the undead type doesn't justify it either otherwise the abominations would be getting all their stuff on their very first level instead of getting a little of it all progressively.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: oslecamo on May 13, 2014, 12:12:58 PM
Ok, been around checking the undead base monster classes.
-Didn't add anything to the ones that get scaling incororeability because even at first level it offers some nice utility.
-Angel of Decay gets Decay Device, that allows it to rot locks and traps and other objects.
-Brain in a Jar already had psionic stuff.
-Defacer gets to disguise as beings whose faces it has stolen.
-Drowned already has swim speed and curse water.
-Entropic Reaper gets an Intimidate bonus while wielding an oversized scythe.
-Ghoul and Wight get Primitive Predator, bonus to hide and move silently while unarmored and not wielding manufactured weapons.
-Nightwalker gets a scaling bonus to all skills whilein darkness.
-Pistol Wraith already gets guns, nuff said.
-Mummy gets bonded servants, aka unseen servants with some tweaks.
-Ulgurstasta has the acid breath at first level, if you don't know how to use it that for utility then I can't help you.
-Vasuthant has unbounded flight right away, and is medium sized and Str-focused, so you can carry the party members across most 1st level terrain obstacles, scout the skies and whatnot.
-Vasuthant gets to disguise as its victims.
-Bloodhulk gets a bonus to Intimidate while bulging up.

I doubt the immunities being a defining point of being undead is a just argument since many abilities that define certain creatures in many monster classes are not available at first level. Them being part of the undead type doesn't justify it either otherwise the abominations would be getting all their stuff on their very first level instead of getting a little of it all progressively.

Get on with the days man. Abominations (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/abomination.htm) haven't been a creature type for more than a decade now! :p

Specific creature abilities may be delayed, but basic creature type abilities are handed out at first level.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Anomander on May 13, 2014, 12:57:00 PM
Ah, correct. Some kind of sub-type. Still, if their traits can be delayed, I don't see why these base traits cannot be. Even a creature's size can be delayed.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: ketaro on May 13, 2014, 09:28:27 PM
Eerr, there's really nothing in OA dokufu that suggests it is a spellcaster. Its only magic ability is the alternate form, and "as CL 20 shapechange" was just common wording for high CR monsters Alternate Form in 3.0.

And as you just pointed out, its inspiration seems  indeed to be the Jorogumo, that is basically a monstrous spider that can turn into an human. It likes to fool people yes, but it does so by transforming into a regular human, not by casting illusions.

Besides if you just want a spellcaster with a spider motiff, there's other ways already available you can accomplish that. Polymorph, werespider, druid with vermin wildshape, you name it. Heck, the Aranea (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=534.0) already is a spellcaster spider with an humanoid alternate form that throws webs in a single package!

Pff, I know that. I was just rambling on in a whole bunch of directions.

Edit: I find it pretty terrible that some one is trying to redefine what being Undead means and completely revamp the Type simply because some one else doesn't like that Undead don't get class skills (or even Spot & Listen more specifically)  :-\
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on May 13, 2014, 09:36:47 PM
I'm against incremental advancement of the undead type, simply as it means you can't play an undead from first level; you need to spend a precious two levels picking up immunities (and wouldn't that be wasted once mind blank, death ward, and fortification are available) but nothing else for it. 3 HD to play a human skeleton with no other abilities is far too much. :/
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Anomander on May 13, 2014, 10:39:45 PM
As I said, yes you could.
Just take take your undead class levels without investing in the one or two levels (again, doesn't have to be 2 levels) to get the immunities. Especially if you don't care about them and would rather rely on mind blank, death ward and fortification.
You'd actually get some skill points and maybe a better BAB too instead.
Same reason you'd get a ring of evasion instead of the second level of Rogue/Monk.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on May 13, 2014, 10:44:20 PM
The problem is, this seems like cheating. Yes, these abilities are available elsewhere--but should I really be relying on cash expenditure when I could be getting the same things just by a side effect of levels?

Os has altered undead so all have something to offer outside of conflict; the discussion is more or less ended. It's not a case of utility-vs-immunity; now it's just 'is it worth altering all undead to take account of a two level dip to gain immunities' rather than just ignoring the suggestion.

Just doesn't seem worth the effort.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Anomander on May 13, 2014, 11:03:33 PM
Quote
The problem is, this seems like cheating. Yes, these abilities are available elsewhere--but should I really be relying on cash expenditure when I could be getting the same things just by a side effect of levels?
Hey, you pointed this out. If now you have a problem with your own argument then just get the level for the immunities instead. If you really want a side effect of levels, it could be that for each level in an undead class, you get an immunity of your choice from the trait list of immunities instead of all of them at once. Even easier to implement with a simple rule similar to how size increases/decreases are handled: a clause about undead/construct traits in the "Introduction and FAQ-Read this first!" thread.

Quote
Os has altered undead so all have something to offer outside of conflict; the discussion is more or less ended.
So he buffed something that was already too good because the original problem was that the penalties he chose to begin with weren't appropriate and the skills he penalized have an utility zone of their own.
As he said himself:
Quote from: Oslecamo
It's my opinion that undead traits are just too strong that they demand a penalty, thus weak Bab and only one good save. But those are hardly drawbacks when undeads are immune to most things that demand saves and more often than not have very dangerous natural weapons and/or touch attacks. Thus, no class skills. Also, they're undeads, their brains are long rotten if they have them at all.
And I heartily agree that they are hardly drawbacks for the gains. He removed class skills in addition for that reason and now he's buffing them a bit because this drawback was apparently not fitting because of their out of combat utility.

Which is why I'm saying that adjusting the balance of the immunities with something else is a better fix, and actually pretty easy to implement.
I could do it.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on May 13, 2014, 11:12:23 PM
Er, no? My opinion has always been that in-combat defences are not a logical offset for being no more than talkative rotting flesh outside of it. Like for like: combat bonuses should be offset by combat penalties. Combat bonuses offset by out of combat uselessness just ensures wasting time when ability to pummel things isn't needed--you know, everything wrong with T4 and T5 classes.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Anomander on May 13, 2014, 11:29:34 PM
When I spoke of your argument, I referred to what you just said prior to that post.
"Instead of immunities for a level, just get stuff like mind blank, death ward, and fortification once they are available and then its like you wasted your level."
Followed by: "Getting equipment to replace the immunities is like cheating... I'd rather get them with my levels."

Either way, the suggested measures seem appropriate to address the issue that "undead traits are just too strong that they demand a penalty" and that the current penalties is not enough/appropriate for a single level in an undead class that already offers other abilities.

The suggested measures are:
- 1 or 2 level to get undead/construct immunities. They would grant bab/saves/skills as per one undead/construct monster class that has already been taken, the undead/construct immunities (either scaling for one level by getting a few every HD, half of them each level over two levels or all of them for 1 level at once) and a +1 ability score increase in an ability that is progressed in an undead/monster class that was already taken (sort of like the Monster Blooded feat).
- Every level in a undead/construct monster class grants 1 of their trait immunities. That way a level dip doesn't give everything for no real penalties.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: oslecamo on May 14, 2014, 08:54:54 AM
Quote from: Oslecamo
It's my opinion that undead traits are just too strong that they demand a penalty, thus weak Bab and only one good save. But those are hardly drawbacks when undeads are immune to most things that demand saves and more often than not have very dangerous natural weapons and/or touch attacks. Thus, no class skills. Also, they're undeads, their brains are long rotten if they have them at all.
And I heartily agree that they are hardly drawbacks for the gains. He removed class skills in addition for that reason and now he's buffing them a bit because this drawback was apparently not fitting because of their out of combat utility.

Which is why I'm saying that adjusting the balance of the immunities with something else is a better fix, and actually pretty easy to implement.
I could do it.
Yes, it would be easy to implement. Yes, you could do it.

But it would only make things worst. Now you have  levels that gives only passive defenses. No natural weapons, no movement modes, that's it. Which is plain boring.

Besides, the whole point of this classes was that things would come in convenient packages. Not modular "create your own monster" bits where you can just pick the abilities you're interested and throw the rest out of the window. That's for what templates are for, and that's why I put the multiclassing restriction for base monster classes in there in the first place.


The abilities I now added don't really rise the undeads power level that much, since they provide utility whitout allowing to unlock  cheesy skill stuff.

EDIT:Also sorry, edited your last post while trying to quote, it should be back to its original form now.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Anomander on May 14, 2014, 11:16:13 AM
Quote
But it would only make things worst. Now you have  levels that gives only passive defenses. No natural weapons, no movement modes, that's it. Which is plain boring.
Are you sure?
Many monsters have a level where they only get DR/SR or some defensive ability. Getting a bunch of immunities doesn't sound boring.  Looking at a random undead: Entropic Reaper. Yep. One level has only defensive abilities in Reapers warding. It is already like this. Some levels grant utility, some grant offensive abilities, others defensive abilities. Sometimes a mix of them.
And there is nothing wrong with that.

Quote
Besides, the whole point of this classes was that things would come in convenient packages. Not modular "create your own monster" bits where you can just pick the abilities you're interested and throw the rest out of the window. That's for what templates are for, and that's why I put the multiclassing restriction for base monster classes in there in the first place.
Aye, but the package is way too convenient. Technically its always a "create your own monster" since you can just get the first few levels you want and jump on something else, like classes and templates. If having the choice on the immunities is a problem, then the order they are acquired could always be the same, giving a convenient package each level instead of one big thing at the first level with penalties that you only really suffer if you stay for many levels into the class.

Also, as you say, this is different with templates. The convenient package you want for the base monster classes is given to them too. One level in an undead/construct template and you're set. No real multiclassing restriction. No real counterbalance either. The suggested measures are especially meaningful to them.

Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: FireInTheSky on May 14, 2014, 12:13:18 PM
I think it's more about 1st level than just "this random single level doesn't have any out-of-combat utility, only passive defensive stuff." If you're starting at 1st level, you have Undead Immunities, a slam attack, and... that's it. No skill points, no other abilities, nothing whatsoever to offer out of combat. Are you really gonna play that monster?

The abilities I now added don't really rise the undeads power level that much, since they provide utility whitout allowing to unlock  cheesy skill stuff.
And it seems this is now fixed, so, are we done arguing?
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Anomander on May 14, 2014, 12:41:21 PM
If you're starting at first level, you have whatever the first level of the undead monster class/template grants you, minus all the immunities (except perhaps a few), plus perhaps a better BAB and skill points w/class skills.

If you want to play an Awakened Skeleton human. Would you be disinterested by that monster if it stopped giving all the undead immunities except maybe 1-2, say, sleep effects and diseases for having a single undead level in something (especially nothing in an actual base undead monster class).
You'd still play an undead monster that doesn't register as a living creature, get healed by nega energy instead of positive energy and so on,  two claw attacks, STR mod to natural attacks, cold resistance equal to HD, DR/bludgeon equal to half HD, a The Skeleton Dance ability of your choice and +2 to Dex. Now with maybe 1 bab, 4+int skill points and some class skills.

Pretty good for one level. I don't find it boring compared to the current one.

Not sure how you otherwise got that first level undead with immunities format. It doesn't fit the level option I suggested.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: FireInTheSky on May 14, 2014, 01:29:06 PM
I wasn't talking about your suggestion, I was talking the way Osle's classes currently work, and Raineh's (and others') original complaint.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: oslecamo on May 16, 2014, 06:37:21 AM
Quote
But it would only make things worst. Now you have  levels that gives only passive defenses. No natural weapons, no movement modes, that's it. Which is plain boring.
Are you sure?
Many monsters have a level where they only get DR/SR or some defensive ability. Getting a bunch of immunities doesn't sound boring.  Looking at a random undead: Entropic Reaper. Yep. One level has only defensive abilities in Reapers warding. It is already like this. Some levels grant utility, some grant offensive abilities, others defensive abilities. Sometimes a mix of them.
And there is nothing wrong with that.
Actually, that's more of the entropic reaper being in serious need of a complete overhaul. 5th level for just DR/SR is seriously lagging behind.

Nonundead classes may be getting levels in which they tecnically only get defensive abilities, but they're usually also gaining Bab and a nice amount of skill points.

Quote
Besides, the whole point of this classes was that things would come in convenient packages. Not modular "create your own monster" bits where you can just pick the abilities you're interested and throw the rest out of the window. That's for what templates are for, and that's why I put the multiclassing restriction for base monster classes in there in the first place.
Aye, but the package is way too convenient. Technically its always a "create your own monster" since you can just get the first few levels you want and jump on something else, like classes and templates. If having the choice on the immunities is a problem, then the order they are acquired could always be the same, giving a convenient package each level instead of one big thing at the first level with penalties that you only really suffer if you stay for many levels into the class.

You still didn't explain why you want people to have to burn 3 levels to replicate a CR 1 monster. Or 9 levels to replicate a CR 7 monster. Or 2+X levels to replicate a CR X monster.

Also, as you say, this is different with templates. The convenient package you want for the base monster classes is given to them too. One level in an undead/construct template and you're set. No real multiclassing restriction. No real counterbalance either. The suggested measures are especially meaningful to them.
Template undeads demand 10+ Con score to take. Base undead classes don't, so you have the advantage of being able to dump your Con to the bottom and putting those stats somewhere else.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Anomander on May 16, 2014, 10:59:52 AM
Quote
Quote
But it would only make things worst. Now you have  levels that gives only passive defenses. No natural weapons, no movement modes, that's it. Which is plain boring.
Nonundead classes may be getting levels in which they tecnically only get defensive abilities, but they're usually also gaining Bab and a nice amount of skill points.
Exactly. That's precisely what I'm saying.
Quote
You still didn't explain why you want people to have to burn 3 levels to replicate a CR 1 monster. Or 9 levels to replicate a CR 7 monster. Or 2+X levels to replicate a CR X monster.
I already did.
They get too much stuff on their first level.

I said many times already that it doesn't have to be 2 extra levels. Like, many times.
It could progress along their undead/constuct monster level progression.
The 1 or 2 undead/construct prestige class levels is another option to compensate for those classes without enough levels to grant everything the monster has to offer at an appropriate level. But again, those could instead grant scaling immunities over HD (scaling immunity to crits could be a rising %), unless they are templates, in which case they could rise by levels in undead/construct template classes instead of HD.
Quote
Template undeads demand 10+ Con score to take. Base undead classes don't, so you have the advantage of being able to dump your Con to the bottom and putting those stats somewhere else.
Whats more penalizing: 2 feats to get a single level in an undead/construct monster class to multiclass with your other monster class because you want to dip a level for a big package of immunities or just keep your Con low at 10 (a modifier of 0 still sounds like a dump stat to me) and take a level dip for the same big package of immunities?
It simply doesn't change the point I've made in the text you quoted: "One level in an undead/construct template and you're set. No real multiclassing restriction. No real counterbalance either."
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: GuesssWho on May 21, 2014, 10:09:31 PM
Does the Aboleth class treat Savant Aboleth as a PrC? What about other [species]-only classes?
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: oslecamo on May 22, 2014, 07:06:26 AM
As long as you take all the levels in the "base" monster, you count as it for qualifying for that kind of prcs yes.

Quote
Quote
But it would only make things worst. Now you have  levels that gives only passive defenses. No natural weapons, no movement modes, that's it. Which is plain boring.
Nonundead classes may be getting levels in which they tecnically only get defensive abilities, but they're usually also gaining Bab and a nice amount of skill points.
Exactly. That's precisely what I'm saying.
Quote
You still didn't explain why you want people to have to burn 3 levels to replicate a CR 1 monster. Or 9 levels to replicate a CR 7 monster. Or 2+X levels to replicate a CR X monster.
I already did.
They get too much stuff on their first level.
Thus penalties to make up for all that extra stuff. Making a monster take the same amount of levels than their CR is the core foundation of this project.

Progression of immunities along levels isn't really an option when many undeads have only 2-4 levels to work with.

Progression trough HD is reserved for things that go completely out of scale. An ethereal creature auto-wins  99% of the problems of low levels, thus HD scaling. Tiny/large creatures bonus kinda break the RNG at first level as well. Undead immunities are pretty darn good, but not that good that there's no option but delaying them. After all, low level non-ethereal undeads are quite appropriate challenges to the PCs.

Quote
Template undeads demand 10+ Con score to take. Base undead classes don't, so you have the advantage of being able to dump your Con to the bottom and putting those stats somewhere else.
Whats more penalizing: 2 feats to get a single level in an undead/construct monster class to multiclass with your other monster class because you want to dip a level for a big package of immunities or just keep your Con low at 10 (a modifier of 0 still sounds like a dump stat to me) and take a level dip for the same big package of immunities?
It simply doesn't change the point I've made in the text you quoted: "One level in an undead/construct template and you're set. No real multiclassing restriction. No real counterbalance either."
Just because you consider 10 a dump stat, doesn't mean that you can't tank it even further down. Starting with a base undead class easily allows you to squeeze an extra +2 or +4 to your other ability scores over a template undead class.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Anomander on May 22, 2014, 07:43:48 AM
Quote
Thus penalties to make up for all that extra stuff. Making a monster take the same amount of levels than their CR is the core foundation of this project.
That'd be fine if the penalties made up for it. They do not.
Another important part of this project is to "Cut down most abuseable abilities to keep the power level in check".
When an ability is too strong for the level at which it can get it, what we do is usually dumb it down or give a significant penalty to compensate.
Like a fire immunity being reduced to a fire resistance until a point or not at all. It can be scaled until the level is appropriate for it or sometimes it doesn't even get the ability at all to make space for all the other good stuff.

Progression trough HD isn't reserved for things that go completely out of scale. You yourself encourage using it it for about half the abilities gained so here's another opportunity to use it.

Quote
Just because you consider 10 a dump stat, doesn't mean that you can't tank it even further down. Starting with a base undead class easily allows you to squeeze an extra +2 or +4 to your other ability scores over a template undead class.
Doesn't change my point: "One level in an undead/construct template and you're set. No real multiclassing restriction. No real counterbalance either."
Having your Con at 10 to no longer have to worry about it isn't a counterbalance. I do not see how one can even imagine that it is. The ability pointbuy system speaks for itself.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: M3mentoMori on May 25, 2014, 12:16:53 AM
The Corruptor Initiate ability of the Succubus class seems to contradict itself. The first several lines seem to suggest that your effective spellcasting class level is Succubus levels + caster levels: If I was a Succubus 3/Sorcerer 1, as in the example, I'd cast as a Sorcerer 4 (knowing 6/3/1 spells and able to cast 6/6/3 spells.)). But the second to last line ("She wouldn't get the spell knowns and spell slots of a sorceror 3 however") seems to say that you would just have a caster level of a Sorcerer 4. Which way is it supposed to be?

My apologies if this isn't the right place to post this.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Daedroth on May 25, 2014, 05:17:15 AM
The Corruptor Initiate ability of the Succubus class seems to contradict itself. The first several lines seem to suggest that your effective spellcasting class level is Succubus levels + caster levels: If I was a Succubus 3/Sorcerer 1, as in the example, I'd cast as a Sorcerer 4 (knowing 6/3/1 spells and able to cast 6/6/3 spells.)). But the second to last line ("She wouldn't get the spell knowns and spell slots of a sorceror 3 however") seems to say that you would just have a caster level of a Sorcerer 4. Which way is it supposed to be?

My apologies if this isn't the right place to post this.

Read the FAQ, if you can't understand it, its easeier than it seems.
You have the spells known of a Sorcerer 4 minus the spells known of a Sorcerer 3 (1/0/1), if you are a Succubus 4/Sorcerer 2 (In that order) you know the spells known of a Sorcerer 6 minus de spells known of a Sorcerer 4 (1/1/1/1). The same applies to the daily spells.
You also have a CL of 4 and 6 in each case.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Leviathan on May 25, 2014, 05:54:00 AM
In effect, levels of Succubus let you "skip" levels of Sorcerer: instead of the increase in spellcasting concomitant with Sorcerer 1, you get the spellcasting that comes with going from Sorcerer 3 to Sorcerer 4, but not the benefits you would have gained from the three levels you jumped over.

This "pseudocasting" is one of the least intuitive and hardest to explain parts of this project. Suggestion: Instead of each class giving a brief and confusing description, what if the classes just said "this class grants pseudocasting for <whatever classes>", with a link to a complete definition of pseudocasting, with full examples and rules text that is as unambiguous as possible? That way, classes could be made slightly shorter, there would be fewer opportunities for copypasta errors in boilerplate text, and the rules would be clearer. If anyone else thinks this is worthwhile, I can draft a proposal for the pseudocasting definition after I get some sleep.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Rakoa on May 25, 2014, 04:31:40 PM
I'd like to propose the Wight for a bit of an overhaul. It might just be me being crazy, but it seems a tad lackluster to me. I don't think it has stood up to the tests of time.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: M3mentoMori on May 25, 2014, 05:34:08 PM


Read the FAQ, if you can't understand it, its easeier than it seems.
You have the spells known of a Sorcerer 4 minus the spells known of a Sorcerer 3 (1/0/1), if you are a Succubus 4/Sorcerer 2 (In that order) you know the spells known of a Sorcerer 6 minus de spells known of a Sorcerer 4 (1/1/1/1). The same applies to the daily spells.
You also have a CL of 4 and 6 in each case.
[/quote]

The FAQ doesn't seem to have anything directly addressing this. I checked it before I posted. Though now that I look again, there is a table for spells gained.

Thanks for the explanation, though. It's still quite confusing.

So I get the spells known of a Sorcerer X (Where X is the sum of my succubus and sorcerer levels), minus the spells known and spells per day of a sorcerer Y (Where Y is my succubus level)?

@Leviathan: That makes more sense. Thanks.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Daedroth on May 26, 2014, 02:53:17 PM

So I get the spells known of a Sorcerer X (Where X is the sum of my succubus and sorcerer levels), minus the spells known and spells per day of a sorcerer Y (Where Y is my succubus level)?


Yep
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: oslecamo on May 27, 2014, 10:05:57 AM
This "pseudocasting" is one of the least intuitive and hardest to explain parts of this project. Suggestion: Instead of each class giving a brief and confusing description, what if the classes just said "this class grants pseudocasting for <whatever classes>", with a link to a complete definition of pseudocasting, with full examples and rules text that is as unambiguous as possible? That way, classes could be made slightly shorter, there would be fewer opportunities for copypasta errors in boilerplate text, and the rules would be clearer. If anyone else thinks this is worthwhile, I can draft a proposal for the pseudocasting definition after I get some sleep.
Considering that FireInTheSky's index will help me find the relevant monsters, on my part I would be willing to edit a clearer ruling in if you wrote it down.

I'd like to propose the Wight for a bit of an overhaul. It might just be me being crazy, but it seems a tad lackluster to me. I don't think it has stood up to the tests of time.
Noted. Want to finish the  Reaver overhaul before looking at that.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Stricture on May 30, 2014, 12:34:20 PM
A question. In the FAQ section concerning extra HD it says:

"
    I see a lot of abilities based on HD. Do they count extra HD such as the ones from Bardic Inspiration?
   No. Count only your class HD for any ability that is based on HD, not from any other source.

"

Does this refer to only the class HD from the actual monster class that gave you the ability?
Or does it refer to the total sum of HD that the character has gained through gaining levels in classes?
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on May 30, 2014, 12:37:07 PM
A question. In the FAQ section concerning extra HD it says:

"
    I see a lot of abilities based on HD. Do they count extra HD such as the ones from Bardic Inspiration?
   No. Count only your class HD for any ability that is based on HD, not from any other source.

"

Does this refer to only the class HD from the actual monster class that gave you the ability?
Or does it refer to the total sum of HD that the character has gained through gaining levels in classes?

Sum of all HD from classes.

Since the entire point of this is to do away with RHD and LA, I'm not sure why they're not just based off character level instead.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: oslecamo on May 30, 2014, 01:09:42 PM
Because not ever being able to understand what Wotc exactly means with "character level" was one of the reasons I started this whole thing.  :p

And yes, all permanent HD count towards your abilities that say they work out of HD.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on May 30, 2014, 01:13:17 PM
Because not ever being able to understand what Wotc exactly means with "character level" was one of the reasons I started this whole thing.  :p

And yes, all permanent HD count towards your abilities that say they work out of HD.

Sum of class levels. ECL is adding LA and RHD onto that. :lmao
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Stricture on May 30, 2014, 01:34:31 PM
Thank you, some more questions.

Even the pit fiends summoning? and its invisibility scaling?

they say:

"
Invisibility:as a SLA 1/day for each HD. At 6 HD See Invisibility, Invisibility Purge and other such anti-invisibility effects except True Seeing don't bypass the Pit Fiend's invisibility unless the observer is whitin 10 feet. At 14 HD not even True Seeing bypasses it unless the observer is whitin 10 feet of the creature/object subject to Invisibility.
"

and

"
Summon Devil:Twice per day as a standard action, the Pit fiend can summon reinforcments, depending on its HD:

3HD:2 lemures
5 HD: 4 lemures
8HD:2 bearded devils or 8 lemures
10HD: 1 Erinyes or 4 bearded devils or 16 lemures
12HD:2 Bone Devils or 2 erinyes or 8 bearded devils or 32 lemures
14HD: 1 Ice Devil, or three bone devils, or three erinyes, or 16 bearded devils or 64 lemures.
18HD: 1 Horned Devil, or two ice devils, or eight bone devils, or eight erinyes, or 32 bearded devils, or 128 lemures.
20HD: two horned devils, or four Ice Devils, or sixteen Bone Devils, or Sixteen Erinyes, or 64 Bearded Devils, or 256 Lemures.
"


How about the entries refering to levels? Take the Ak'Chazar Rakshasas spellcasting? It says:

"
At 2nd level the  Rakshasa, Ak'Chazar becomes able to cast as a sorcerer of 4/5 his level (thus advancing this casting at every level but 6th and 11th, for a total of 12th level sorcerer casting at 15th level).
"

I assume that it refers to levels in the Ak'Chazar Rakshasa class and not character level.
In other words, the spellcasting progression is tied to the class progression and not the the characters level progression.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on May 30, 2014, 01:39:29 PM
1) Yes, even the Pit Fiend stuff. The aim is to have racial classes that are useful at all levels, rather than being good at the level you start playing but a bunch of dead features at level 20. Imagine you're a Pit Fiend 3/Warblade 17 (for some reason): what possible use is summoning a pair of Lemures going to be at that level?

2) Levels refers to levels in the class, yes.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Anomander on May 30, 2014, 01:55:08 PM
Quote from: RD
Sum of class levels. ECL is adding LA and RHD onto that.
Almost.  :)
Quote from: PHB
Character Level: "Character level" is a character's total number of levels. It is used to determine when feats and ability score boosts are gained.
Although the definition can be confusing, its purpose is clear: its what determines when feats and ability score boosts are gained.
LA does not contribute to that end, but racial HD does.
Therefor, Character Level is the sum of all racial HD, class levels, and whatever other kind of level counts to determine when you get your feat and ability score boosts.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on May 30, 2014, 02:01:57 PM
Forgot RHD added to feats. Which is stupid, since that's where monsters get feats. :lmao
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Leviathan on July 24, 2014, 01:27:48 AM
Several of the dragon classes (and possibly others) say this about their fly speeds:
Quote
The maneuverability doesn't increase naturaly, but players can take the Savage Species feat that increases it by two steps(stackable).

I looked in Savage Species, and I couldn't find this feat. There is a feat called Improved Flight, found in Complete Adventurer and Races of the Wild, which only increases maneuverability by one step.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: oslecamo on July 24, 2014, 06:40:06 PM
You seem to be completely right. And it just took some three years for people to notice! Will see about fixing it tommorrow.

If you had any monster request pending, I would do it next as a reward for pointing it out, but it seems like you never asked for anything. Anything specific you would like to see done next? :p
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Leviathan on July 24, 2014, 07:38:47 PM
I'm not picky, but I do like swarms.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Rakoa on July 24, 2014, 08:05:50 PM
I think Hellwasp is the only swarm in the index. Somethin' fresh 'n fun could be cool.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: ketaro on July 24, 2014, 08:11:44 PM
Demonhives.

Colonies of demonhives!
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on July 24, 2014, 08:59:49 PM
Swarms sound glorious.

And then I can stop pondering playing hybrid gelatinous cube hellwasps. JELLYWASPS.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Rakoa on August 26, 2014, 02:29:18 PM
I'm looking at making a character for an upcoming campaign. Does anybody know of any monsters with an affinity for Binding? I can't recall any off the top of my head.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Yasahiro on August 27, 2014, 04:19:53 PM
I would like you guys to consider This Guy (http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Draegloth)

Ain't he cute?

Draegloth's are underappreciated, guys.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: GuesssWho on October 01, 2014, 10:17:10 PM
I'm still hoping for a half-farspawn class. Or just farspawn, since I'm not sure they really needed the word 'half' there LOL
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: oslecamo on October 02, 2014, 05:42:54 PM
As a reminder, the request list is here (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=272.0).
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Rakoa on November 28, 2014, 08:20:36 PM
Just a question I was pondering earlier, and I'm curious to get some responses. Of all the Monster Classes here, forum goers, which do you consider to be the "creepiest"?
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Anomander on November 28, 2014, 08:53:08 PM
Depends what kind of creepy you're aiming for.
For creepy in general I'd say the Pseudonatural Creature.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on November 28, 2014, 08:54:30 PM
Depends what kind of creepy you're aiming for.
For creepy in general I'd say the Pseudonatural Creature.

Mindshattering tentacle rape grapple monster? Yup.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Rakoa on November 29, 2014, 09:47:09 AM
Depends what kind of creepy you're aiming for.
For creepy in general I'd say the Pseudonatural Creature.

Well, it is certainly open to interpretation, but that is part of the reason I asked the question. I know a friend of mine who is terrified of the more animalistic monsters, like Xenomorphs, that can't be reasoned with, where for me it would be the malign, intelligent, supernatural entities.

That said, I think it would be hard for anyone to not find the Pseudonatural Creature creepy.  :P
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Anomander on November 29, 2014, 11:14:58 AM
Well, there is the uncanny valley to evaluate creepiness. When the subject becomes too similar to something well known but is different enough to be able to tell that it is completely wrong.
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f0/Mori_Uncanny_Valley.svg/461px-Mori_Uncanny_Valley.svg.png)

In that respect, I'd say that most of the hags, the keeper (eyeless and queer anatomy) and most of the humanoid undead creatures fit the bill nicely. Like the ghoul and the penanggalan/manananggal (no class for thosee yet but that can be arranged very soon if you want).

Pseudonatural Creature is still quite perfect but if you'd rather avoid stuff from another world the undeads and things like the carrionette or any almost-human creature with the most disturbing habits would work great.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Rakoa on November 29, 2014, 11:31:34 AM
Ahh, I am such a fan of the uncanny valley. Mostly because it is so very accurate. I was considering nominating the Visage myself for the creepy factor, but hadn't quite decided. Maybe I'll take a scroll through the index and see what I can come up with to add to the discussion.

Speaking of which, I noticed that the Blackscale Lizardfolk is recorded on Fireinthesky's table as being two levels long, but it is actually three. I think this would be the place to mention that? I'll go with that.

EDIT: Officially nominating Sorrowsworn Demon for the creepy contender. That dude is messed up.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: FireInTheSky on December 02, 2014, 12:07:28 AM
Speaking of which, I noticed that the Blackscale Lizardfolk is recorded on Fireinthesky's table as being two levels long, but it is actually three. I think this would be the place to mention that? I'll go with that.
Noted. I'm gonna update that thing at some point, I swear! :p
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: TraceChaos on December 10, 2014, 11:15:56 PM
So, would this board be the appropriate place to post a non-D&D monster? Like say I wanted to write up a class -for- 3.5 but FROM some video game or another?
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: oslecamo on December 11, 2014, 04:10:47 AM
You must (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=6660.msg100778#msg100778) be new (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=5995.msg88741#msg88741) here (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2519.0) aren't you?

Yes, as long as it's a class for a monster, it doesn't matter if the original source is Pathfinder or 2e or pop culture or another game or something made up from scratch, it is welcome here.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: TraceChaos on December 11, 2014, 09:51:26 PM
Freakin' awesome. Okay, so now I just need to collaborate with some of my more D&D-oriented friends and make a Reaper (http://img2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20130526090125/masseffect/images/8/82/El_rannoch_reaper.png).

That or I need to find people on here willing to help me figure out how to space it. I've honestly got a rough idea for what all I want to include as class abilities.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: SolEiji on December 11, 2014, 09:58:19 PM
Is that Mass Effect?  Good good.  If you want, you can take a peak at some of my homebrew and steal/draw inspiration from a reaper expy I once made.  Not having played ME in its entirety I couldn't tell you how accurate it is to source material, only that it's based off it.

Have a quasi-reaper (http://dnd-wiki.org/wiki/Extheoria_Reaper_(3.5e_Monster)), and the accompanying Elder Evil which goes with it. (http://dnd-wiki.org/wiki/Extheoria_(3.5e_Elder_Evil))  CR 25 mind you.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: TraceChaos on December 11, 2014, 10:39:55 PM
Hrm, that's.... rather neat. I'll look into it, though I was thinking of having it be a construct or something. *looks it over more either way for possible inspiration*

Thanks for the permission to take stuff from yer homebrew, though SolEiji!
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Threadnaught on December 14, 2014, 07:03:20 PM
If you want, you can take a peak at some of my homebrew and steal/draw inspiration

Probably not the right place to bring it up, but Saiyans (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Saiyans_(3.5e_Race)) have had Super Saiyan removed completely, the more recent (but not quite new) version (http://dungeons.wikia.com/wiki/Saiyan_(3.5e_Race)) lacks Super Saiyanjin 4 transformation, though the saving throws against exhaustion are just as impossible as the original's, which made the Truenamer's Skill Checks appear easy. I still fancy running a game for an entire party abusing Super Saiyanjin, not a serious one mind you.
If you decide to bring back Super Saiyanjin 4 transformation, would you for the sake of accuracy, allow characters to skip Golden Oozeru after the first successful transformation, or is Golden Oozeru forever a requirement?
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Jackinthegreen on December 26, 2014, 06:53:24 PM
Is there an option for a creature that doesn't eat to gain increased sizes?  I got looking at Titanic Creature and think it'd be nice to add onto some other stuff, but that chomping requirement limits that.

Perhaps a way to generally increase the size of something that doesn't have a Con score?
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: ketaro on December 26, 2014, 07:59:23 PM
Doesn't need to doesn't mean physically unable to.
D&D can be weird too :p
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Anomander on December 26, 2014, 08:03:05 PM
^this.

Some undead are reputed to be unholy eaters.
As for constructs... well, just patch yourself a meat-grinder and you can 'eat' forever.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Rakoa on January 09, 2015, 07:09:30 PM
Could somebody please tell me I'm not insane? I was thinking the other day about a Flesh Golem monster class that I've used in my games before, probably a year or two ago. I know I did, for a fact, but I can't find it anywhere here now. Maybe it wasn't quite a Flesh Golem? It was very Frankensteiny, I assure of that, right up to being afraid of fire. Or taking extra damage from it. Or something.

Does anybody know the class that I'm talking about? It is seriously driving me crazy!
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: oslecamo on January 09, 2015, 07:31:29 PM
Maybe it was the half-golem? It has options for half-flesh, half-cadaver, half-cadaver-flesh, and a bunch of others.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Rakoa on January 09, 2015, 07:38:31 PM
I looked it over, but it certainly was not. In fact, I even remember it being invigorated by electricity a la flesh golem (which I know the half-flesh golem does, too, but it wasn't it), which leaves little doubt in my mind that that is, indeed, what the class was. I distinctly remember a very Frankenstein picture for it, too, complete with doctor and table and lightning. The fact that I can't find it here is the really confusing part. Perhaps it was on another forum and didn't make the port over? Or was deleted somehow?

Maybe it came from a different project, but I find that pretty unlikely. I can't even remember seeing another monster class project, furthermore using one in my games.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on January 09, 2015, 07:48:31 PM
I looked it over, but it certainly was not. In fact, I even remember it being invigorated by electricity a la flesh golem (which I know the half-flesh golem does, too, but it wasn't it), which leaves little doubt in my mind that that is, indeed, what the class was. I distinctly remember a very Frankenstein picture for it, too, complete with doctor and table and lightning. The fact that I can't find it here is the really confusing part. Perhaps it was on another forum and didn't make the port over? Or was deleted somehow?

Maybe it came from a different project, but I find that pretty unlikely. I can't even remember seeing another monster class project, furthermore using one in my games.

Bhu's done a few, I think. But I don't think he's done flesh golems.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: ketaro on March 07, 2015, 04:33:28 AM
I just noticed there isn't a template for making a monster class. Yanno, something with most of the bbcode done out already
Cause who actually knows how to make tables -_-'
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on March 07, 2015, 07:54:30 AM
I just noticed there isn't a template for making a monster class. Yanno, something with most of the bbcode done out already
Cause who actually knows how to make tables -_-'


There is, actually. Go to the full reply screen. Fourth dropdown box. Wish I could remember what's up with the columns, though.


BASE CLASS NAME

(http://picture%20url/)
   
"Quote of Some Kind by a member of the class!"
-name of quote origin, race and class name optional

A general description of whatever the class is!

MAKING A CLASS NAME
Short description of play style.
Abilities: The important abilities and why they are important.
Races: Basically how common is the class in the various core races (and other races if you wish to put information in here about them).
Alignment: Alignment restrictions (if any).
Starting Gold: Xd4x10(average gp)
Starting Age: As (core class name).

Class Skills
The Class Name's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are....
Skill Points at 1st Level: (x + int)x4
Skill Points at Each Additional Level: x + int

Hit Dice: dx



Level
Base
Attack Bonus
Fort
Save
Ref
Save
Will
Save

Special[/c][/c][/c][/c][/c][/c]
1st+0+2+0+2-[/c][/c][/c][/c][/c][/c]
2nd+1+3+0+3-[/c][/c][/c][/c][/c][/c]
3rd+2+3+1+3-[/c][/c][/c][/c][/c][/c]
4th+3+4+1+4-[/c][/c][/c][/c][/c][/c]
5th+3+4+1+4-[/c][/c][/c][/c][/c][/c]
6th+4+5+2+5-[/c][/c][/c][/c][/c][/c]
7th+5+5+2+5-[/c][/c][/c][/c][/c][/c]
8th+6/+1+6+2+6-[/c][/c][/c][/c][/c][/c]
9th+6/+1+6+3+6-[/c][/c][/c][/c][/c][/c]
10th+7/+2+7+3+7-[/c][/c][/c][/c][/c][/c]
11th+8/+3+7+3+7-[/c][/c][/c][/c][/c][/c]
12th+9/+4+8+4+8-[/c][/c][/c][/c][/c][/c]
13th+9/+4+8+4+8-[/c][/c][/c][/c][/c][/c]
14th+10/+5+9+4+9-[/c][/c][/c][/c][/c][/c]
15th+11/+6/+1+9+5+9-[/c][/c][/c][/c][/c][/c]
16th+12/+7/+2+10+5+10-[/c][/c][/c][/c][/c][/c]
17th+12/+7/+2+10+5+10-[/c][/c][/c][/c][/c][/c]
18th+13/+8/+3+11+6+11-[/c][/c][/c][/c][/c][/c]
19th+14/+9/+4+11+6+11-[/c][/c][/c][/c][/c][/c]
20th+15/+10/+5+12+6+12-[/r][/c][/c][/c][/c][/c][/c]
Weapon and Armor Proficiencies: A place to put the different proficiencies.

Class Ability (Ex): At Xth level a class name...

Class Ability (Su): At Xth level a class name...

Class Ability (Sp): At Xth level a class name...
 
PLAYING A CLASS NAME
 Brief description on how to play the class you are designing.
 Combat: Here's a section where you will describe common combat methods for your class. Remember to include information on how your class will use his powers in combat.
 Advancement: This is a section on different options and paths that the class can go down when they advance in power.
 Resources: What resources might a member of this PrC be able to draw on.

CLASS NAME IN THE WORLD
"A quote of somebody else talking about your class!"
-name of quote originator
A brief description of how your class is persevered in the world and how he interacts with the world.
 Daily Life: Some general information about the typical day in the life of your class.
 Notables: Make up some cool information about notable figures in the history of your class. It's best to give a little information from one of the good alignment and evil alignment (unless it's a good or evil only class).
 Organizations: Some information about organizations dedicated to the practice of your class and other organizations which members of your class will be attracted towards.

NPC Reaction
 This is an in detail description of how NPC's would perceive your class and the immediate generalization that people would give of your class.

CLASS NAME IN THE GAME
 This is a good place to provide a quick note on how your class will effect game play statistically.
 Adaptation: This is a place where you put in detail how people can adapt your class into their campaign setting.
 Encounters: This is a place to describe what sort of encounters PC's will have with NPC versions of your class.


EPIC CLASS NAME

Hit Die: dx
Skills Points at Each Level : x + int
Class Ability: The Epic Class Name's Class Ability continues to advance at 21st level and every x levels higher than 20th.
Class Ability: The Epic Class Name's Class Ability continues to advance at 21st level and every x levels higher than 20th.
Bonus Feats: The Epic Class Name gains a Bonus Feat every x levels higher than 20th
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: ketaro on March 07, 2015, 08:24:25 AM
WHOOOAAAAAA that dropdown box just blew my mind  :o
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: FireInTheSky on March 07, 2015, 09:51:03 AM
Wish I could remember what's up with the columns, though.
The [/c] is because you're supposed to close each cell. Is that what you meant?

Ketaro, you could also check out this thread (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1864.0). There's a lot of good stuff in there. (I'm a big fan (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=10999.msg184238#msg184238) of the work Garryl did on nested tables.)
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: jojolagger on April 19, 2015, 02:37:02 PM
So I noticed this on the lich, and figured there was probably enough reuse of phrasing to ask in general.
Dark Touch: A lich gains a touch attack that deals damage equal to 1d8+ the lich's ability bonus of the ability score its spellcasting is based on. A lich with multiple spellcasting classes uses the class with the highest ability bonus.

What if your spellcasting isn't based on an ability score? Tainted Sorcerer or Tainted Scholar for example. Not a likely situation, but a possible one.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Rakoa on May 15, 2015, 12:11:10 PM
Would I be incorrect in assuming that there is a Beholder Mage class somewhere around here? I could have sworn that I had seen one, but I cannot find it.

I may be in line for another Flesh Golem scenario.

EDIT: Turns out I was thinking of the references within the Beholder to Beholder Mage. But I swear that the Flesh Golem really did exist!!
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: bhu on May 26, 2015, 10:20:48 PM
http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=994.180  I have a template I'd like to give a shot at doing.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: oslecamo on May 27, 2015, 08:23:21 AM
Certainly, go ahead, classes based on homebrew are perfectly fine here.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: bhu on May 27, 2015, 08:32:58 PM
For template classes the number of levels is equal to the +LA right?
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Rakoa on May 27, 2015, 09:31:37 PM
Well, the Lich template on here is two levels long, if that's anything to go by. The regular Lich template is CR+2 and LA+4, so CR seems to be the way to go.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: bhu on May 28, 2015, 02:20:45 AM
CR for my template is +1.  It would be way too front loaded for a level 1 prc.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: ketaro on May 28, 2015, 03:59:26 AM
If there is enough inspiration to go further than the CR or LA of the original template/monster/whatever, it is cool to just make as many levels as you feel you need. I'm sure that is mentioned in the other thread about Os' rules for making stuff for this project :p
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: oslecamo on May 28, 2015, 04:43:56 AM
My suggestion is usually to either tone down the original template, or give it more levels as you see fit.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: VindAlowd on July 12, 2015, 08:39:45 PM
There is a typo in the main index. The link to the flesh golem is written as "Goblin, Flesh."
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Rakoa on July 12, 2015, 11:21:36 PM
"Goblin, Flesh."

Get on it, Os.  :p
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: oslecamo on July 13, 2015, 07:21:22 AM
Fixed.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: TC X0 Lt 0X on July 18, 2015, 01:20:01 PM
So maybe my Firefox search broke and I am blind but the Ogre and Ogre Mage are not in the index.

Which seems weird considering osle made both
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Rakoa on July 18, 2015, 02:01:09 PM
So maybe my Firefox search broke and I am blind but the Ogre and Ogre Mage are not in the index.

Which seems weird considering osle made both

You can find them underneath the "Giant" tab in the main index.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: TC X0 Lt 0X on July 18, 2015, 08:28:31 PM
So maybe my Firefox search broke and I am blind but the Ogre and Ogre Mage are not in the index.

Which seems weird considering osle made both

You can find them underneath the "Giant" tab in the main index.

That will explain it
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Chrononaut on July 24, 2015, 08:49:47 PM
Just an FYI, I was looking at lillend for gloura ideas, and the image is down. I suspect anything you had on imageshack older than 3 years might be KIA.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: blind sight on July 25, 2015, 01:39:57 AM
I think it would be interesting to see a section in this forum briefly talking about strong class synergies after a monster class is finished. Especially in Gestalt.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Rakoa on July 25, 2015, 06:55:51 AM
I think it would be interesting to see a section in this forum briefly talking about strong class synergies after a monster class is finished. Especially in Gestalt.

There is the Monstrous Builds subforum, which I believe would be suitable for this purpose.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: oslecamo on August 12, 2015, 06:10:12 PM
A bit late to this discussion, but yes, there's the Monstrous Builds (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?board=170.0) subforum specifically created for people to discuss character building and synergies using the classes around here.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: oslecamo on October 23, 2015, 07:53:56 AM
Busybusybusy real life dumped a bunch of extra work on me. I'll have to cut down on net stuff for this and the next week, probably will only be able to restart updating my stuff in this forums from the 4th of November.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: TC X0 Lt 0X on October 23, 2015, 09:18:58 AM
I know that feel.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: ImperatorV on November 03, 2015, 12:56:46 AM
I had a question about the Pit Fiend's Overlord ability. I'm reading it as you can maintain a number of HD of devils equal to 2x your HD (thus 40 at level 20), which seems kinda low considering you can call up 128 bearded devils. Am I reading this wrong?
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: TC X0 Lt 0X on November 07, 2015, 09:49:10 PM
Hmmm, so would you consider a epic progression for the Hoard feat or a Epic Hoard feat?
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: oslecamo on November 08, 2015, 03:52:52 AM
I had a question about the Pit Fiend's Overlord ability. I'm reading it as you can maintain a number of HD of devils equal to 2x your HD (thus 40 at level 20), which seems kinda low considering you can call up 128 bearded devils. Am I reading this wrong?

No, you can keep 40 HD all day long and then summon an army of devils for a short period of time when you really need it.

Hmmm, so would you consider a epic progression for the Hoard feat or a Epic Hoard feat?

Eeerrr, hoard already works into epic, there's no limit to the amount of bling you can stash inside. :???
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: TC X0 Lt 0X on November 08, 2015, 04:57:59 AM
I mean in regards to Enhanced Body and Status Symbol, which from what I see scale up only to +4 and +6 respectively.
I suppose a sufficiently funded Dragon/Monster could simply put in items that provide the same bonuses at higher numbers easily enough, but at that point it becomes moot to have a pile of gold sitting around =P
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: oslecamo on November 12, 2015, 02:55:46 AM
Ok, added a progression to Status Symbol up to +16 and Enhanced Body up to +15.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Rakoa on December 19, 2015, 11:11:55 AM
Has anyone else noticed that the main index of this subforum has become....bigger? As if I'm a blind person in need of larger text to read properly? Or is it just me?
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Nanshork on December 19, 2015, 12:15:18 PM
Has anyone else noticed that the main index of this subforum has become....bigger? As if I'm a blind person in need of larger text to read properly? Or is it just me?

There's a thread about it here (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=16885.0).
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Rakoa on December 20, 2015, 11:48:50 AM
Ahh, good, thanks Nanshork. This subforum is literally the only thing I use this forum for. As long as it isn't just me!
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Nanshork on December 20, 2015, 12:41:42 PM
Ahh, good, thanks Nanshork. This subforum is literally the only thing I use this forum for. As long as it isn't just me!

No worries, I didn't find the thread myself until I'd spent a good five minutes or so trying to figure out what was going on!
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: oslecamo on December 21, 2015, 07:44:59 AM
Just an heads up, RL stuff keeps happening and I've got plenty of work on my hands. Right now chances are that I'll only be able to properly update anything around here in in 2016. I'll just wish you a good holydays, merry Christmas and a great new year in advance.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: TC X0 Lt 0X on December 21, 2015, 08:45:44 AM
As long as you don't mind having to shift through all my unbalanced OP stuff I make after  :thumb
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Rakoa on December 21, 2015, 11:51:10 AM
Merry Christmas! (http://25.media.tumblr.com/d7179283ba2a6186fef77f2c20a0572e/tumblr_mev60xjL9w1rapkbao1_r8_500.gif)
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: TC X0 Lt 0X on January 30, 2016, 11:41:06 PM
Note to myself to make Else Creatures, based on the Elsewhale.
And then a When creature epic template class,so I can have Elsewhenwhales
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: VennDygrem on April 06, 2016, 02:43:06 PM
Question: When not otherwise specified, is natural weapon damage given for a medium-sized creature or for a creature of the size the monster is assumed to have achieved? For instance, if you gain a trample attack at 10th level but grew one size at 8th level. Is it assumed the monster grew, even if the player took the option to not grow and instead took the +2 to a physical ability score? There are some monsters with Growth at several levels, making it somewhat important to our keep track of natural weapon dice.

--edit--
Perhaps this wasn't the best place to post this question, since it seems to have been overlooked...
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: oslecamo on April 14, 2016, 03:50:33 AM
Question: When not otherwise specified, is natural weapon damage given for a medium-sized creature or for a creature of the size the monster is assumed to have achieved? For instance, if you gain a trample attack at 10th level but grew one size at 8th level. Is it assumed the monster grew, even if the player took the option to not grow and instead took the +2 to a physical ability score? There are some monsters with Growth at several levels, making it somewhat important to our keep track of natural weapon dice.
Natural weapon damage given in a monster class assume that the monster grew whenever possible by the class.

Added to the FAQ.

--edit--
Perhaps this wasn't the best place to post this question, since it seems to have been overlooked...

It was, just busybusybusy.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: ~Corvus~ on April 30, 2017, 04:44:49 AM
Trying to parse together a sortable table, but the headings aren't working well. Bugger all.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: FireInTheSky on April 30, 2017, 09:45:45 PM
Trying to parse together a sortable table, but the headings aren't working well. Bugger all.

If you quote this post, you'll see the way I had mine set up. It just got to be too much work for me to keep up with these things. I'm not sure if you're  trying to do something similar, but if you want, I can PM you the Excel file from wherever I left off
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: ~Corvus~ on May 01, 2017, 11:45:21 PM
Trying to parse together a sortable table, but the headings aren't working well. Bugger all.

If you quote this post, you'll see the way I had mine set up. It just got to be too much work for me to keep up with these things. I'm not sure if you're  trying to do something similar, but if you want, I can PM you the Excel file from wherever I left off

Send me the file; I'll take it on!
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: FireInTheSky on May 02, 2017, 08:09:35 PM
Trying to parse together a sortable table, but the headings aren't working well. Bugger all.

If you quote this post, you'll see the way I had mine set up. It just got to be too much work for me to keep up with these things. I'm not sure if you're  trying to do something similar, but if you want, I can PM you the Excel file from wherever I left off

Send me the file; I'll take it on!

Whoops. Forgot to actually link the post in question. Here it is (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=270.msg115491#msg115491).

In any case, PM sent.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Nanshork on July 01, 2017, 02:06:40 PM
I've updated all of my entries with the fancy tables I made on the other mmf.  I've got multiple missing pictures, I'm not happy about that.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Versatility_Nut on July 18, 2017, 07:47:24 PM
So, I notice that there's not an actual Animated Object monster class, just an Awakened one. And Awakened, itself, lacks a monster class, even though several of the Awaken spells give permanent HD. Some of them just make creatures from scratch. It'd be a great choice for a general monster PRC that isn't an outright template. As for what to do with Awakened, I can come up with the following right away:

3 level class
+4 Int each level
Nonability/below 2 Int prerequisite
d10 HD
3/4 BAB
Strong Fort/Will saves
Legacy Champion style progressing what's already there
4+Int skill ranks

Basically, you get a good chassis and 12 Int with one or two levels of progressing parts of what you already have. Parts being important, selecting a limited number of features to add levels of progression to rather than a whole class.

---

As for Animated Object, these are the ideas I can whip up right away:

3/4 BAB, as they are bruisers and therefore deserve decent hitting-things ability
Options at 1st level for material, restricted to basic ones like wood and steel
Hardness of material being split between hardness and regular DR
Getting to select properties off a list throughout leveling, like PF
Growth with option of getting a Swarm instead of size or stat

So, comments on the basic ideas here? I'll wait for comments before I actually do anything, because editing tables is... painful.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Nanshork on July 18, 2017, 08:10:15 PM
Did you notice that Animated Object has both a race and a class?  Also, the animated object would have to be Awakened because PCs require an intelligence score. 

I'm also not sure how Os will feel about a generic Awakened prestige class where there are at least ten Awakened (xxx) classes already created.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Versatility_Nut on July 18, 2017, 09:34:52 PM
Did you notice that Animated Object has both a race and a class?  Also, the animated object would have to be Awakened because PCs require an intelligence score. 

I'm also not sure how Os will feel about a generic Awakened prestige class where there are at least ten Awakened (xxx) classes already created.
Let me list some problems. From size modifiers for being Tiny, they have -8 Strength, which, with the -2 racial, menas they have 0 strength on average, and get +4 Dex, with another +2 from racial. And have 50 ft. move if they are bipedal from the race, regardless of size, at the "cost" of being able to be tripped. As opposed to 40 ft. move when they can't be tripped, which is still faster than the typical party member. Wheels give 80 ft. move at the low cost of not getting to use Climb or Jump, rendered irrelevant by being able to grab Flight at 1st level and have proper flight at 3 HD. 40 ft. speed Clumsy flight, due to being half land speed, meaning that they are still moving faster than the rest of the party while flying. Or swimming or climbing, if they pick one of the other options.

At 3rd level, they can carry the entire party by having the Box option and taking all the Growth choices they get for being level three. One member can use them as a mount, the other two can ride inside with cover and be able to fight back. Oh, and Construct traits give Large Constructs 30 extra HP, meaning average HP for this creature at ECL 3 is 56 HP. 10 from maxed first HD, 11 for 2d10 average, 30 for Large Construct. Oh, wait, there's another three HP for Objective Object, meaning it's 59 HP at ECL three. With the ability to have two Medium-sized party members inside with cover and able to take advantage of the bloated move speed to have a battle bus that can fly faster than they can walk. Which, due to Strength and size modifiers, is probably dealing upwards of 20 damage per attack itself. Let's see... +8 Str size modifier, +5 Str from the class, -2 from the race, which means +11 Strength. x1.5 for Slam means 16.5 and then 3.5 for average roll, meaning that it actually is dealing 20 damage on average. At ECL 3. While having 59 HP, on average.

So... I do believe that it needs an overhaul.

In regards to a generic Awakened class, it can be useful for someone who wants to use a mindless creature that doesn't have one of these classes, or for people who want to use only a small subsection of the classes and the DM is picking them based on having a rebalanced LA to handle the ECL problems, like a certain thread series by a user with the name of Inevitability over on Giant in the Playground. Or they want to turn their skeletal Orcs into decently intelligent minions, which the Awaken Undead spell doesn't allow by capping at the racial average.

Semi-generic classes for certain common changes work out fairly well for this purpose. A one-size-fits-all Awaken PRC wouldn't work out well, it's too general, but one for each commonly-eligible creature type, as in Ooze, Vermin, Construct, Undead, Animal and Plant, would certainly make things less crazy and more open. Slight subdivisions through AFCs allows you to tune it a bit better.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on July 18, 2017, 10:24:22 PM
It's worth noting that none of Os's classes use the creature advancement stat modifiers to size.

For good reason. I think Os'd have an issue if just by using his classes and no particular effort I ended up with 72 STR, 54 CON, and a bonus +14 Natural Armour BEFORE the common tendency to base NA off those stats came up. On the flip side, it makes small characters playable. Yes, this would be a serious issue with one character I have--the classes hand out ability improvements already, and you can choose to not grow or avoid taking growth options, so they can't be removed easily without creating weird size splits.

Remember--that table is a guide for improving monsters as given in the rulebooks. If you want to make a monster go from large to huge? Here's a rough guide on appropriate stat improvements.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Nanshork on July 18, 2017, 10:26:47 PM
For Awakened Construct, if you have concerns but you believe that the existing one can be fixed the best way to address it would be to post in that thread about what your concerns are.  As a board we don't have any issues with thread necromancy.

If you think it is unsalvageable and want to make your own version, that's allowed also.


As to the generic class idea, we've got 11 awakened animals, a handful of awakened constructs, some awakened oozes, and some awakened undead including skeletons and zombies (counting is too much effort because nobody has awakened in their index listing).  Referencing GitP doesn't mean anything to me because I only go over there to look at homebrew and even that is rare lately.  There is an Anthropomorphic Animal class so there's some precedence, I'm just not sure how you would go about it in a way that's drastically different from what we've got.


Also, Raineh has a point that I missed.  The ONLY ability score modifiers that apply are the ones that are explicitly listed.  The Animated object's size has no impact on its ability scores, it gets -2 Str, +2 Dex, -2 Wis, -2 Int and -2 Cha as listed.  That's it.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Versatility_Nut on July 18, 2017, 11:42:29 PM
It's worth noting that none of Os's classes use the creature advancement stat modifiers to size.

For good reason. I think Os'd have an issue if just by using his classes and no particular effort I ended up with 72 STR, 54 CON, and a bonus +14 Natural Armour BEFORE the common tendency to base NA off those stats came up. On the flip side, it makes small characters playable. Yes, this would be a serious issue with one character I have--the classes hand out ability improvements already, and you can choose to not grow or avoid taking growth options, so they can't be removed easily without creating weird size splits.

Remember--that table is a guide for improving monsters as given in the rulebooks. If you want to make a monster go from large to huge? Here's a rough guide on appropriate stat improvements.
Well, part of my problem is that there's two such tables. If we use the one that is referred to by the Enlarge Person spell, which is very different from the one I was looking at, which just causes massive issues, then they become incapable of hitting things very quickly, breaking them in the other direction. For example, Large creatures get -1 to attack and AC, while Huge ones get -2. Gargantuan creatures get -4. The setup is very much built around getting modifiers to offset the penalties directly, but that's not part of the table for characters. Enlarge Person doesn't increase your attack bonus at all, that +2 Strength is only offsetting the penalty for being large.

The Growth function increasing Strength as an alternative to increasing size means that staying smaller is always better unless you are actively carrying things, grappling, or have abilities requiring size to function. Because without the modifiers for increasing size as a monster, you will only ever lose AC and attack roll bonus for getting bigger. Constructs have a bit of mercy in that they get extra HP based on size as a fact of the creature type, so my issue with 59 HP for no real investment at 3rd level still holds true. Although you are also losing 3 AC and, like, +6 attack bonus and +3 damage over staying Tiny. Being Tiny has very large benefits and not many disadvantages if we ignore the monster table.

And if you think having nearly twice the health of a raging Barbarian for +6 Attack is a fair trade, this is only for Constructs. Non-Constructs will get literally nothing in terms of durability improvements from going up in size, according to the character size change table. Non-constructs, in fact, get exactly three upsides: Damage die increases, reach and Grapple modifier. The Monster table, meanwhile, is getting 14 NA for Medium to Colossal. And losing 4 Dex. And 8 Attack bonus and AC. So -10 Touch AC for +4 regular AC. It gets a lot of Strength, yes. Medium to Colossal is +32 Strength. Diminutive to Medium is +10 Strength with a -4 to Attack and AC from size, with another -3 to Touch AC from size. And no Natural Armor to show for it, so that +4 regular AC from Medium to Colossal becomes -3 to regular AC, for +9 to attack and +21 damage.

So even with the monster size increase table, it's still better to stay small. At most, you would want to go to Medium or Large for the sake of damage dice, and even that's iffy because of just how big size modifiers are and the balance point of the game.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on July 18, 2017, 11:54:43 PM
It's worth noting that none of Os's classes use the creature advancement stat modifiers to size.

For good reason. I think Os'd have an issue if just by using his classes and no particular effort I ended up with 72 STR, 54 CON, and a bonus +14 Natural Armour BEFORE the common tendency to base NA off those stats came up. On the flip side, it makes small characters playable. Yes, this would be a serious issue with one character I have--the classes hand out ability improvements already, and you can choose to not grow or avoid taking growth options, so they can't be removed easily without creating weird size splits.

Remember--that table is a guide for improving monsters as given in the rulebooks. If you want to make a monster go from large to huge? Here's a rough guide on appropriate stat improvements.
Well, part of my problem is that there's two such tables. If we use the one that is referred to by the Enlarge Person spell, which is very different from the one I was looking at, which just causes massive issues, then they become incapable of hitting things very quickly, breaking them in the other direction. For example, Large creatures get -1 to attack and AC, while Huge ones get -2. Gargantuan creatures get -4. The setup is very much built around getting modifiers to offset the penalties directly, but that's not part of the table for characters. Enlarge Person doesn't increase your attack bonus at all, that +2 Strength is only offsetting the penalty for being large.

The Growth function increasing Strength as an alternative to increasing size means that staying smaller is always better unless you are actively carrying things, grappling, or have abilities requiring size to function. Because without the modifiers for increasing size as a monster, you will only ever lose AC and attack roll bonus for getting bigger. Constructs have a bit of mercy in that they get extra HP based on size as a fact of the creature type, so my issue with 59 HP for no real investment at 3rd level still holds true. Although you are also losing 3 AC and, like, +6 attack bonus and +3 damage over staying Tiny. Being Tiny has very large benefits and not many disadvantages if we ignore the monster table.

And if you think having nearly twice the health of a raging Barbarian for +6 Attack is a fair trade, this is only for Constructs. Non-Constructs will get literally nothing in terms of durability improvements from going up in size, according to the character size change table. Non-constructs, in fact, get exactly three upsides: Damage die increases, reach and Grapple modifier. The Monster table, meanwhile, is getting 14 NA for Medium to Colossal. And losing 4 Dex. And 8 Attack bonus and AC. So -10 Touch AC for +4 regular AC. It gets a lot of Strength, yes. Medium to Colossal is +32 Strength. Diminutive to Medium is +10 Strength with a -4 to Attack and AC from size, with another -3 to Touch AC from size. And no Natural Armor to show for it, so that +4 regular AC from Medium to Colossal becomes -3 to regular AC, for +9 to attack and +21 damage.

So even with the monster size increase table, it's still better to stay small. At most, you would want to go to Medium or Large for the sake of damage dice, and even that's iffy because of just how big size modifiers are and the balance point of the game.

You forgot Reach, Swallow, Trample, and every single other attack under the sun that benefits being larger--not least the whole Titanic Creature template. In the vast majority of cases, the classes that get larger have some direct ability benefiting from being larger and at worst have the strength and con increases anyway to make it a null investment. And this is before considering the classes that get size increases and can wield weapons.

A 1d12 greataxe is neat and all, let's take it to colossal. That's 6.5 average damage per hit. Colossal is 8d6. That's an average of 28. So, on average, we're looking at a +22 for a -8 to hit. That's better than power attack. You can use it whilst completely out of reach, too. Most maneuvers are totally useless because of the inherent strength bonuses of likely classes and the +16 size modifier. Pack a little something for AoO's and you're in a great spot without inflating AC.

Don't underestimate what size can do.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: ketaro on July 19, 2017, 12:42:12 AM
Well, part of my problem is that there's two such tables. If we use the one that is referred to by the Enlarge Person spell, which is very different from the one I was looking at, which just causes massive issues, then they become incapable of hitting things very quickly, breaking them in the other direction. For example, Large creatures get -1 to attack and AC, while Huge ones get -2. Gargantuan creatures get -4. The setup is very much built around getting modifiers to offset the penalties directly, but that's not part of the table for characters. Enlarge Person doesn't increase your attack bonus at all, that +2 Strength is only offsetting the penalty for being large.

The Growth function increasing Strength as an alternative to increasing size means that staying smaller is always better unless you are actively carrying things, grappling, or have abilities requiring size to function. Because without the modifiers for increasing size as a monster, you will only ever lose AC and attack roll bonus for getting bigger. Constructs have a bit of mercy in that they get extra HP based on size as a fact of the creature type, so my issue with 59 HP for no real investment at 3rd level still holds true. Although you are also losing 3 AC and, like, +6 attack bonus and +3 damage over staying Tiny. Being Tiny has very large benefits and not many disadvantages if we ignore the monster table.

And if you think having nearly twice the health of a raging Barbarian for +6 Attack is a fair trade, this is only for Constructs. Non-Constructs will get literally nothing in terms of durability improvements from going up in size, according to the character size change table. Non-constructs, in fact, get exactly three upsides: Damage die increases, reach and Grapple modifier. The Monster table, meanwhile, is getting 14 NA for Medium to Colossal. And losing 4 Dex. And 8 Attack bonus and AC. So -10 Touch AC for +4 regular AC. It gets a lot of Strength, yes. Medium to Colossal is +32 Strength. Diminutive to Medium is +10 Strength with a -4 to Attack and AC from size, with another -3 to Touch AC from size. And no Natural Armor to show for it, so that +4 regular AC from Medium to Colossal becomes -3 to regular AC, for +9 to attack and +21 damage.

So even with the monster size increase table, it's still better to stay small. At most, you would want to go to Medium or Large for the sake of damage dice, and even that's iffy because of just how big size modifiers are and the balance point of the game.

Honestly, none of that is taking into account, as far as I can tell, the actual powerful class features of the monster class as potentially being there to help offset the negatives.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: oslecamo on July 20, 2017, 07:50:10 PM
So, I notice that there's not an actual Animated Object monster class, just an Awakened one. And Awakened, itself, lacks a monster class, even though several of the Awaken spells give permanent HD. Some of them just make creatures from scratch. It'd be a great choice for a general monster PRC that isn't an outright template. As for what to do with Awakened, I can come up with the following right away:

3 level class
+4 Int each level
Nonability/below 2 Int prerequisite
d10 HD
3/4 BAB
Strong Fort/Will saves
Legacy Champion style progressing what's already there
4+Int skill ranks

Basically, you get a good chassis and 12 Int with one or two levels of progressing parts of what you already have. Parts being important, selecting a limited number of features to add levels of progression to rather than a whole class.

As for Animated Object, these are the ideas I can whip up right away:

3/4 BAB, as they are bruisers and therefore deserve decent hitting-things ability
Options at 1st level for material, restricted to basic ones like wood and steel
Hardness of material being split between hardness and regular DR
Getting to select properties off a list throughout leveling, like PF
Growth with option of getting a Swarm instead of size or stat

So, comments on the basic ideas here? I'll wait for comments before I actually do anything, because editing tables is... painful.

Basic outline seems fine, but you seem to have a series of misunderstandings about how monster classes work around here.

Let me list some problems. From size modifiers for being Tiny, they have -8 Strength, which, with the -2 racial, menas they have 0 strength on average, and get +4 Dex, with another +2 from racial.
Improved Monster classes don't get any stat changes for size. That is explained on the FAQ. Plus I would like to point out small core races like halflings don't get any stat extra stat changes.

And have 50 ft. move if they are bipedal from the race, regardless of size, at the "cost" of being able to be tripped. As opposed to 40 ft. move when they can't be tripped, which is still faster than the typical party member. Wheels give 80 ft. move at the low cost of not getting to use Climb or Jump, rendered irrelevant by being able to grab Flight at 1st level and have proper flight at 3 HD. 40 ft. speed Clumsy flight, due to being half land speed, meaning that they are still moving faster than the rest of the party while flying. Or swimming or climbing, if they pick one of the other options.

At 3rd level, they can carry the entire party by having the Box option and taking all the Growth choices they get for being level three. One member can use them as a mount, the other two can ride inside with cover and be able to fight back. Oh, and Construct traits give Large Constructs 30 extra HP, meaning average HP for this creature at ECL 3 is 56 HP. 10 from maxed first HD, 11 for 2d10 average, 30 for Large Construct. Oh, wait, there's another three HP for Objective Object, meaning it's 59 HP at ECL three. With the ability to have two Medium-sized party members inside with cover and able to take advantage of the bloated move speed to have a battle bus that can fly faster than they can walk. Which, due to Strength and size modifiers, is probably dealing upwards of 20 damage per attack itself. Let's see... +8 Str size modifier, +5 Str from the class, -2 from the race, which means +11 Strength. x1.5 for Slam means 16.5 and then 3.5 for average roll, meaning that it actually is dealing 20 damage on average. At ECL 3. While having 59 HP, on average.

So... I do believe that it needs an overhaul.
Construct Monster classes here don't get any size-based extra HP (check the golems/anaxim and whatnot). However seems like I let that detail slip with the animated object base race, and just fixed it. Thank you for pointing it out.

In regards to a generic Awakened class, it can be useful for someone who wants to use a mindless creature that doesn't have one of these classes, or for people who want to use only a small subsection of the classes and the DM is picking them based on having a rebalanced LA to handle the ECL problems, like a certain thread series by a user with the name of Inevitability over on Giant in the Playground. Or they want to turn their skeletal Orcs into decently intelligent minions, which the Awaken Undead spell doesn't allow by capping at the racial average.
Improved Monster classes were created from the start as a replacement for the LA system, not something to be used with the LA system.

Still a prc to "smart up" monsters is something I see as viable (at least as viable as prcs for making them physically stronger and whatnot). What I have trouble seeing is a fair way to apply it to mass produced minions.

Semi-generic classes for certain common changes work out fairly well for this purpose. A one-size-fits-all Awaken PRC wouldn't work out well, it's too general, but one for each commonly-eligible creature type, as in Ooze, Vermin, Construct, Undead, Animal and Plant, would certainly make things less crazy and more open. Slight subdivisions through AFCs allows you to tune it a bit better.
I have to admit I like the way you talk.

Well, part of my problem is that there's two such tables. If we use the one that is referred to by the Enlarge Person spell, which is very different from the one I was looking at, which just causes massive issues, then they become incapable of hitting things very quickly, breaking them in the other direction. For example, Large creatures get -1 to attack and AC, while Huge ones get -2. Gargantuan creatures get -4. The setup is very much built around getting modifiers to offset the penalties directly, but that's not part of the table for characters. Enlarge Person doesn't increase your attack bonus at all, that +2 Strength is only offsetting the penalty for being large.

The Growth function increasing Strength as an alternative to increasing size means that staying smaller is always better unless you are actively carrying things, grappling, or have abilities requiring size to function. Because without the modifiers for increasing size as a monster, you will only ever lose AC and attack roll bonus for getting bigger. Constructs have a bit of mercy in that they get extra HP based on size as a fact of the creature type, so my issue with 59 HP for no real investment at 3rd level still holds true. Although you are also losing 3 AC and, like, +6 attack bonus and +3 damage over staying Tiny. Being Tiny has very large benefits and not many disadvantages if we ignore the monster table.

And if you think having nearly twice the health of a raging Barbarian for +6 Attack is a fair trade, this is only for Constructs. Non-Constructs will get literally nothing in terms of durability improvements from going up in size, according to the character size change table. Non-constructs, in fact, get exactly three upsides: Damage die increases, reach and Grapple modifier. The Monster table, meanwhile, is getting 14 NA for Medium to Colossal. And losing 4 Dex. And 8 Attack bonus and AC. So -10 Touch AC for +4 regular AC. It gets a lot of Strength, yes. Medium to Colossal is +32 Strength. Diminutive to Medium is +10 Strength with a -4 to Attack and AC from size, with another -3 to Touch AC from size. And no Natural Armor to show for it, so that +4 regular AC from Medium to Colossal becomes -3 to regular AC, for +9 to attack and +21 damage.

So even with the monster size increase table, it's still better to stay small. At most, you would want to go to Medium or Large for the sake of damage dice, and even that's iffy because of just how big size modifiers are and the balance point of the game.

The growth table to be used with improved monster classes is in the Introduction/FAQ thread (http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=269.msg1315#msg1315).

And as already mentioned size increases greatly improve weapon die damage, and several monster classes grant extra bonus for being bigger than your opponent, the titanic creature particularly. Otherwise yes I agree that being bigger is usually a sucker's bet in 3.X edition since you mostly get easier to hit and even easier to hit with spells. But again what's why I do things like the titanic creature.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Versatility_Nut on July 20, 2017, 11:16:12 PM
Basic outline seems fine, but you seem to have a series of misunderstandings about how monster classes work around here.
Largely because I'm kinda skimming a lot. I've been feeling rushed lately a lot due to a lot of housework-type things and kinda an overload of forum thread subscriptions. Mostly laundry, which needs done nearly daily due to three people living in this place and towels being gone through at two per day. For some reason, my brother keeps using two dry towels every day. One for normal use, one on the floor.

Quote
Improved Monster classes don't get any stat changes for size. That is explained on the FAQ. Plus I would like to point out small core races like halflings don't get any stat extra stat changes.
As mentioned, I was confused due to the whole "multiple size change tables" thing.

Quote
Construct Monster classes here don't get any size-based extra HP (check the golems/anaxim and whatnot). However seems like I let that detail slip with the animated object base race, and just fixed it. Thank you for pointing it out.

And the three-level battle bus setup? 80 ft. move speed and 40 ft. fly, restricted to 5 ft. above ground and uncapping at 4 HD, at 1st level? Who needs mounts or Cure spells with a literal tank in the party? Just snag some good Construct heals and you're good.

Quote
Improved Monster classes were created from the start as a replacement for the LA system, not something to be used with the LA system.
As opposed to the largely-arbitrarily-segregated Enhanced Monster Classes, which instead replace LA by having an actual playable race version and a class to go with it. That died due to too-harsh restrictions, didn't it?

Quote
Still a prc to "smart up" monsters is something I see as viable (at least as viable as prcs for making them physically stronger and whatnot). What I have trouble seeing is a fair way to apply it to mass produced minions.
Eh, mass production is kinda overrated. Though a merge mechanic would be somewhat appropriate for Vermin and Oozes, with Vermin forming Hiveminds and Oozes... Just merging. It's Ooze. Constructs could also form amalgams of parts and spirits.

Quote
I have to admit I like the way you talk.
An important thing to avoid for Undead is spawn-chaining off of Energy Drain. It's one of the nastiest things that can be done, and is responsible for many a Necromancer getting far too many Undead under their command because the DM was too merciful with the rules.

Quote
The growth table to be used with improved monster classes is in the Introduction/FAQ thread (http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=269.msg1315#msg1315).
I have been informed of the correct table, already. Again, confusion was due to the fact that there's a table for Monsters and a table for PCs and I keep forgetting that the insane design choice of having there be two tables for it was made. Because it's stupid, and stupid choices tend not to stick in my head. Which makes understanding politics an unholy pain in the ass, because it's made of at least half stupid decisions.

Quote
And as already mentioned size increases greatly improve weapon die damage, and several monster classes grant extra bonus for being bigger than your opponent, the titanic creature particularly. Otherwise yes I agree that being bigger is usually a sucker's bet in 3.X edition since you mostly get easier to hit and even easier to hit with spells. But again what's why I do things like the titanic creature.
The advantage of choosing the ability score to improve in place of a size boost is certainly nice, as well. Lets you stop at Medium and be nice and safe by bloating Dex or Con. Restricting to physical scores is a Nice Thing for Martials, due to limits to means of having physical scores apply to spellcasting. Meldshapers love the potential for Con bloating, thought, but they're one of the subsystems screwed in DC scaling anyway.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Nanshork on July 20, 2017, 11:36:00 PM
Quote
Improved Monster classes were created from the start as a replacement for the LA system, not something to be used with the LA system.
As opposed to the largely-arbitrarily-segregated Enhanced Monster Classes, which instead replace LA by having an actual playable race version and a class to go with it. That died due to too-harsh restrictions, didn't it?

Enhanced Monster Classes arose out of a large disagreement about Oslecamo's project and so said disagree-er went off to make their own project.  That died mostly due to a lack of participation in the project because most people didn't have issues with Oslecamo's project.

That's why they're segregated.

Edit: Also, at least Oslecamo uses his monster classes for monsters and not just PCs and thus all of his monsters that use the classes use the rules for the classes.  It's not two tables, one for PCs and one for Monsters.  It's just how this project is structured.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Versatility_Nut on July 21, 2017, 01:01:12 AM
Quote
Improved Monster classes were created from the start as a replacement for the LA system, not something to be used with the LA system.
As opposed to the largely-arbitrarily-segregated Enhanced Monster Classes, which instead replace LA by having an actual playable race version and a class to go with it. That died due to too-harsh restrictions, didn't it?

Enhanced Monster Classes arose out of a large disagreement about Oslecamo's project and so said disagree-er went off to make their own project.  That died mostly due to a lack of participation in the project because most people didn't have issues with Oslecamo's project.

That's why they're segregated.
I can see that being the case. But the idea of keeping actual race picks doesn't seem to be that unusual to me.

Quote
Edit: Also, at least Oslecamo uses his monster classes for monsters and not just PCs and thus all of his monsters that use the classes use the rules for the classes.  It's not two tables, one for PCs and one for Monsters.  It's just how this project is structured.

Thank god for that, exceptions-based mechanics lead to hell for actually keeping track of everything. As for not using monster classes for NPCs/monsters... wut. What's the point of making a class for monsters if you don't use it for actually making monsters of a single sort scale easily?+

---

I just noticed that there's not a Hydra monster class. Some things about the Hydra that are good for streamlining class creation:

1. The HD is always equal to number of heads, while CR for the normal one is one lower than HD.
2. Cryo and Pyro add 2 CR flatly, coming with Energy Immunity to one type and Vulnerability to another, canceling out one Hydra head weakness. They also grant a Breath Weapon.
3. The Fast Healing inherently scales with number of heads.

Some adjustments to the existing mechanics of the monster to better work with a class:

1. Head HP being 6+Con, rather than fraction of total. This is to keep it to one HD per head when making HD slightly independent of heads.
2. Fast Healing needs to be changed from 10+heads to something scaling slower. Maybe Con+HD, instead, to ground it better.
3. Cryo/Pyro breath weapon needs to be altered. 1d4 rounds cooldown for each head is too much AoE power, and the 3d6 damage needs scaling.
4. Each head can use it's bite during a Standard Action attack without restriction. This needs changed. Penalties for extra head attacks, like TWF.

Some things to make it actually a monster class:

1. Base going to 12 heads/Colossal size, whichever hits first, with PRCs built for Hydra use that do not require it to fill remaining pre-Epic progression.
2. Each level(or 2), make a pick from a list. List includes Cryo/Pryo abilities in adjusted form, extra heads, additional/unlock of Fast Healing, etc...
3. +1 Con every one or two levels, replacing the typical Con to NA with the Fast Healing, sheer HP and making reach a massive hazard zone.
4. Start at Small size, get Growth every other level after first. This means that it's Medium at 3rd level, Large at 5th, Huge at 7th and so on.

---

Tempted to work on it now, but it's 1 AM where I'm at, so I need to go to sleep.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on July 21, 2017, 01:11:10 AM
Quote
Thank god for that, exceptions-based mechanics lead to hell for actually keeping track of everything. As for not using monster classes for NPCs/monsters... wut. What's the point of making a class for monsters if you don't use it for actually making monsters of a single sort scale easily?+

Because players want to play monsters.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: TC X0 Lt 0X on July 21, 2017, 02:40:03 AM
There is a Hydra Monster class, with a Cryo/Pyro PrC as well.

http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=1747.0


'''


I pretty much exclusively build my monsters with improved monster classes, primarily because I am running an E6 Game and it makes it easier to keep everything in line with that, but also because it is generally easier to customize and optimize monster classes to help against my somewhat optimized party.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Versatility_Nut on July 21, 2017, 04:16:58 AM
There is a Hydra Monster class, with a Cryo/Pyro PrC as well.

http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=1747.0
...I literally searched it right before I posted to be sure it wasn't there. I suppose I'll critique it for mechanics. In it's thread, quoting back to here just as a link to point at it, so people not tracking the Hydra thread will see.

Some critiques.

As in inside this post, as I posted the critique-attemp-thing just before this post.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Nanshork on July 21, 2017, 10:33:28 AM
Quote
Thank god for that, exceptions-based mechanics lead to hell for actually keeping track of everything. As for not using monster classes for NPCs/monsters... wut. What's the point of making a class for monsters if you don't use it for actually making monsters of a single sort scale easily?+

Because players want to play monsters.

...I said that he uses monster classes for his monsters.  I'm not really sure why you're asking about not doing it?
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on July 21, 2017, 10:39:51 AM
Quote
Thank god for that, exceptions-based mechanics lead to hell for actually keeping track of everything. As for not using monster classes for NPCs/monsters... wut. What's the point of making a class for monsters if you don't use it for actually making monsters of a single sort scale easily?+

Because players want to play monsters.

...I said that he uses monster classes for his monsters.  I'm not really sure why you're asking about not doing it?

Well, he asked what's the point for making monster classes if you don't use it for scaling monster enemies. That would be the reason. Doesn't mean it's not usable for the former or whatever.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Nanshork on July 21, 2017, 10:57:26 AM
Quote
Thank god for that, exceptions-based mechanics lead to hell for actually keeping track of everything. As for not using monster classes for NPCs/monsters... wut. What's the point of making a class for monsters if you don't use it for actually making monsters of a single sort scale easily?+

Because players want to play monsters.

...I said that he uses monster classes for his monsters.  I'm not really sure why you're asking about not doing it?

Well, he asked what's the point for making monster classes if you don't use it for scaling monster enemies. That would be the reason. Doesn't mean it's not usable for the former or whatever.

Oh, in general not Oslecamo specifically.  Got it.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Threadnaught on July 21, 2017, 11:14:51 AM
Just got a dozen books and Dragon magazines, including MM2 and 3, and Dragon 343. Gonna see if there's anything to provide inspiration for the Boneyard's bite and/or "summoning".
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: oslecamo on July 22, 2017, 04:44:32 AM
Basic outline seems fine, but you seem to have a series of misunderstandings about how monster classes work around here.
Largely because I'm kinda skimming a lot. I've been feeling rushed lately a lot due to a lot of housework-type things and kinda an overload of forum thread subscriptions. Mostly laundry, which needs done nearly daily due to three people living in this place and towels being gone through at two per day. For some reason, my brother keeps using two dry towels every day. One for normal use, one on the floor.
No biggie, but still the "Read this First" clause is there in the Intro/FAQ thread for a reason.

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Construct Monster classes here don't get any size-based extra HP (check the golems/anaxim and whatnot). However seems like I let that detail slip with the animated object base race, and just fixed it. Thank you for pointing it out.

And the three-level battle bus setup? 80 ft. move speed and 40 ft. fly, restricted to 5 ft. above ground and uncapping at 4 HD, at 1st level? Who needs mounts or Cure spells with a literal tank in the party? Just snag some good Construct heals and you're good.
It's a super specialized build that can't do much else. Clumsy maneuverability is clumsy and with 24 HP average lacking actual DR, not exactly that durable either. And each party member throwing repair spells is one less party member attacking enemies.

Quote
Improved Monster classes were created from the start as a replacement for the LA system, not something to be used with the LA system.
As opposed to the largely-arbitrarily-segregated Enhanced Monster Classes, which instead replace LA by having an actual playable race version and a class to go with it. That died due to too-harsh restrictions, didn't it?

Enhanced Monster Classes arose out of a large disagreement about Oslecamo's project and so said disagree-er went off to make their own project.  That died mostly due to a lack of participation in the project because most people didn't have issues with Oslecamo's project.

That's why they're segregated.
I can see that being the case. But the idea of keeping actual race picks doesn't seem to be that unusual to me.
The idea, maybe. But the real deal is the extra work. 400+ races worth of work taking in account all the monster classes here.

You mentioned you have real life chores and work to do. So have I. Needing to come up with an original race for every monster here would take a lot of time I could invest in other stuff. In particular when there's a lot less flexibility in what I can put in a base race.

And look at that, my project's the one that's still running and offers a lot more options. Because I don't burn myself out trying to come up with minor extras that don't really offer anything valuable to actual play.

Quote
Edit: Also, at least Oslecamo uses his monster classes for monsters and not just PCs and thus all of his monsters that use the classes use the rules for the classes.  It's not two tables, one for PCs and one for Monsters.  It's just how this project is structured.

Thank god for that, exceptions-based mechanics lead to hell for actually keeping track of everything. As for not using monster classes for NPCs/monsters... wut. What's the point of making a class for monsters if you don't use it for actually making monsters of a single sort scale easily?+
Whot? :psyduck


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Still a prc to "smart up" monsters is something I see as viable (at least as viable as prcs for making them physically stronger and whatnot). What I have trouble seeing is a fair way to apply it to mass produced minions.
Eh, mass production is kinda overrated. Though a merge mechanic would be somewhat appropriate for Vermin and Oozes, with Vermin forming Hiveminds and Oozes... Just merging. It's Ooze. Constructs could also form amalgams of parts and spirits.
Well that's an idea.

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I have to admit I like the way you talk.
An important thing to avoid for Undead is spawn-chaining off of Energy Drain. It's one of the nastiest things that can be done, and is responsible for many a Necromancer getting far too many Undead under their command because the DM was too merciful with the rules.
That's why the spawn-creating monster classes here have caps on how many you can control around.

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The growth table to be used with improved monster classes is in the Introduction/FAQ thread (http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=269.msg1315#msg1315).
I have been informed of the correct table, already. Again, confusion was due to the fact that there's a table for Monsters and a table for PCs and I keep forgetting that the insane design choice of having there be two tables for it was made. Because it's stupid, and stupid choices tend not to stick in my head. Which makes understanding politics an unholy pain in the ass, because it's made of at least half stupid decisions.
The table with stat growths is meant only for advancing monster through HD. It's never been intended for any and every size increase otherwise Enlarge Person would be the ultimate first level buff. Anyway this project is a replacement for usual monster progression so yes it meant replacing a bunch of things.

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And as already mentioned size increases greatly improve weapon die damage, and several monster classes grant extra bonus for being bigger than your opponent, the titanic creature particularly. Otherwise yes I agree that being bigger is usually a sucker's bet in 3.X edition since you mostly get easier to hit and even easier to hit with spells. But again what's why I do things like the titanic creature.
The advantage of choosing the ability score to improve in place of a size boost is certainly nice, as well. Lets you stop at Medium and be nice and safe by bloating Dex or Con. Restricting to physical scores is a Nice Thing for Martials, due to limits to means of having physical scores apply to spellcasting. Meldshapers love the potential for Con bloating, thought, but they're one of the subsystems screwed in DC scaling anyway.

Got plenty of people complaining over the years that they didn't want their monster characters to grow, but claiming utility reasons like going inside houses and tight corridors and whatnot. Although something else I did for that was the Deceivingly Innocent Form feat that allows any monster to take a mostly humanoid shape/size.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Versatility_Nut on July 22, 2017, 10:48:16 AM
It's a super specialized build that can't do much else. Clumsy maneuverability is clumsy and with 24 HP average lacking actual DR, not exactly that durable either. And each party member throwing repair spells is one less party member attacking enemies.
Flying taxi at level four able to take you up faster than most methods can let you go horizontal is good. Delaying the setup until level five still has it quite potent, and gives access to significant offensive capacity alongside it. Religious Relic for Warforged Domain gives cooldown-based Domain access to repair spells.

Not as broken, but a lot of the stuff is kinda wonky, mechanically.

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The idea, maybe. But the real deal is the extra work. 400+ races worth of work taking in account all the monster classes here.

You mentioned you have real life chores and work to do. So have I. Needing to come up with an original race for every monster here would take a lot of time I could invest in other stuff. In particular when there's a lot less flexibility in what I can put in a base race.

And look at that, my project's the one that's still running and offers a lot more options. Because I don't burn myself out trying to come up with minor extras that don't really offer anything valuable to actual play.
"minor extras" means not needing all those Body traits. "nothing valuable to actual play" means actually getting 20 levels in a non-Monster class. It's not actually that complicated, it's just moving the pure racial stuff that forces some weird mechanics into actual races. Like the standard of having the first level of these classes be considerably stronger than normal.

The work would be changing all those existing ones to have it happen, as it's entrenched into the design practices at this point. Which is largely fine, it's that one irremovable RHD is disruptive to certain character choices. Sometimes, you need 20 levels to pull something off.

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Whot? :psyduck
It's a thing I saw in the publicly-accessible basic rules for 4e while looking stuff up for talking about stacking effects onto other abilities. Those rules said D&D was an exceptions-based system. Being an official WotC posting, this is apparently part of how they considered the d20 system to function at the time.

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Well that's an idea.
Works better for Vermin and Oozes than others, due to more reasonable setup for function. Vermin have Hiveminds, which are basically impossible to work as a template-class due to weird crunch, and Oozes can literally just flow together, merging in various gel and fluid like fashions.

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That's why the spawn-creating monster classes here have caps on how many you can control around.
Says the guy who made a PRC which requires 666 controllable spawn for the third level...

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The table with stat growths is meant only for advancing monster through HD. It's never been intended for any and every size increase otherwise Enlarge Person would be the ultimate first level buff. Anyway this project is a replacement for usual monster progression so yes it meant replacing a bunch of things.
So, in other words, the table is for what the size-growths should come after, approximately. Con bonuses and Strength bonuses. Dex penalties are confusing to implement in a class progression, and lack of them does assist in excusing some of the missing value.

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Got plenty of people complaining over the years that they didn't want their monster characters to grow, but claiming utility reasons like going inside houses and tight corridors and whatnot. Although something else I did for that was the Deceivingly Innocent Form feat that allows any monster to take a mostly humanoid shape/size.
Lots of creatures have inherent shapeshifting for fitting in with humanoids, largely based on plot categorization. The requirements on Deceivingly Innocent Form are kinda... bad, though. Like, typical PCs won't get away with it, and they are rather weird on top of that. Granted, the retention of Literally All the monster abilities is worth it, but having a prerequisite that precludes being outright Good if you do it just to get that feat is nasty. I mean, depending on the morality system you apply to Alignment, eating creatures after killing them in a morally-neutral or Good way(Good being death of horrible people or defending innocents from being horribly tortured/murdered) can easily be Neutral, so there's that, but most DMs would be questioning it.

There should probably be a Monstrous Morality subsection for stuff like this... Because there's probably quite a few monsters that have effects needing some morally-questionable things, and getting some suggestions on how to handle those things would be nice for DMs who give a shit about the alignment rules in depth.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on July 22, 2017, 11:17:06 AM
I'm not going to answer most of that--since you seem to be insisting that the hundred-plus classes should be stripped down to having a race entry that would need LA to balance out getting any of the abilities in the first place which defeats the point, but...

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Says the guy who made a PRC which requires 666 controllable spawn for the third level...

You don't have to control them for Vampire Lord, just make them.

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Lots of creatures have inherent shapeshifting for fitting in with humanoids, largely based on plot categorization. The requirements on Deceivingly Innocent Form are kinda... bad, though. Like, typical PCs won't get away with it, and they are rather weird on top of that. Granted, the retention of Literally All the monster abilities is worth it, but having a prerequisite that precludes being outright Good if you do it just to get that feat is nasty. I mean, depending on the morality system you apply to Alignment, eating creatures after killing them in a morally-neutral or Good way(Good being death of horrible people or defending innocents from being horribly tortured/murdered) can easily be Neutral, so there's that, but most DMs would be questioning it.

1) For most monsters you can just go for "I didn't realise it was evil at the time"
2) One action isn't enough to bar you from being good--hell, the only hard rule in the game is you lose paladin abilities (and Saint bonuses) if you do it. After the fact, for Paladin.
3) There exists the concept of redemption.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: ketaro on July 22, 2017, 12:52:38 PM
I've never seen anyone actually take 20 levels in a single class so even just one level of a monster class isn't ruining any builds.....

Not to mention that generally anyone using these monster classes would more likely be building off of them with a build that synergizes with the monster. It helps too when alot of the monsters also stack their levels for certain progressions (arcane/divine/psionic casting, martial adept, rogues, barbarian, etc etc).
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Threadnaught on July 22, 2017, 07:06:37 PM
So, I notice that there's not an actual Animated Object monster class, just an Awakened one. And Awakened, itself, lacks a monster class, even though several of the Awaken spells give permanent HD. Some of them just make creatures from scratch. It'd be a great choice for a general monster PRC that isn't an outright template. As for what to do with Awakened, I can come up with the following right away:

3 level class
+4 Int each level
Nonability/below 2 Int prerequisite
d10 HD
3/4 BAB
Strong Fort/Will saves
Legacy Champion style progressing what's already there
4+Int skill ranks

Basically, you get a good chassis and 12 Int with one or two levels of progressing parts of what you already have. Parts being important, selecting a limited number of features to add levels of progression to rather than a whole class.

There are numerous problems here.

1: Awakened is assumed for all Classes based on creatures with less than 3 Intelligence, as otherwise you're either playing as an Animal, or a mindless creature incapable of thinking. Something Players and indeed PCs need to do a lot of. Without the ability to think like a PC (3 Int minimum), a character ceases to be a character and becomes more like an animal companion, or Skeletal Minion.

2: Awaken as a Spell provides 3d6 Intelligence, minimum Intelligence is 3, with a cap of 18. Yours caps at 12 Intelligence.
Since Awaken Construct works the same way as Awaken works when cast on trees for mental stats, each Mindless Construct PC is given PC levels of Intelligence. Awaken Construct and Awaken Undead do not provide HD.

3: As a Spell, Awaken only grants +2HD for Animals, not +3.

Not only is it completely unnecessary, but your Class also fails to perform as well as any of the Awaken Spells.


Osle, I'd like you to edit your first post here (http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=270.0) so Tortoise, Dire (http://www.minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=9520.0), is in the Animals Spoiler as Dire Tortoise (http://www.minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=9520.0). Just so all the animals are in the same place.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Versatility_Nut on July 22, 2017, 07:42:24 PM
I'm not going to answer most of that--since you seem to be insisting that the hundred-plus classes should be stripped down to having a race entry that would need LA to balance out getting any of the abilities in the first place which defeats the point, but...
When I say stripped down race, I'm talking the utterly fundamental stuff. Hydras with two heads, Fast Healing 1 and the head-sundering thing, as an example. Would that need an LA? FH 1 is only good as out-of-combat healing, though it does force specific time keeping on the DM.

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You don't have to control them for Vampire Lord, just make them.
But they are all controllable. Well, not all of them directly, but CR-2 mean that they can double their controllable spawn of a CR every two levels. Because CR rules are borked, and have doubling the number of creatures of a CR be equivalent to +2 CR. Which means that a Vampire can have a single CR 2 Spawn at 4th level, two at 6th, four at 8th, 16 at 10th and so on, capping pre-Epic at 256 CR 2 Spawn, which means being Turned from CR 1 creatures due to the added Vampire level.

Sure, a vast horde of CR 2 creatures is impressive-looking, but it takes serious organization-optimization chops to actually get things done with them. This is just pointing out where rules you point at are silly.

I've never seen anyone actually take 20 levels in a single class so even just one level of a monster class isn't ruining any builds.....

Not to mention that generally anyone using these monster classes would more likely be building off of them with a build that synergizes with the monster. It helps too when alot of the monsters also stack their levels for certain progressions (arcane/divine/psionic casting, martial adept, rogues, barbarian, etc etc).
It's messing up builds that flatly need 20 levels of conventional class progression. Yes, being able to substitute certain classes is available, but sometimes you just flat-out need zero LA. For example, Hydra doesn't give any major build progression, due to having Poor BAB and no abilities that satisfy prerequisites. More seriously, the single lost level of Sorcerer casting on Aranea delays every casting PRC, period. And doesn't make up for any of the Gish ones by having better BAB than Sorcerer or Wizard.

That one level delay, by the way, means that it's racial casting leaves always a spell level behind Wizard, no matter what. Unless they pull rapid advancement cheese with going Hybrid/Half Tome Dragon and grab Dragon casting acceleration tricks or something, which would be utterly bullshit and moderately terrifying.

But this is super-high-op concerns, so it's mostly a gripe of not being able to replicate a conventional build in every way save for replacing some levels with Monster classes outside of extremely narrow cases. Most of them are a matter of replacing Martials in BAB progression. Like literally all the Full BAB ones casually replace most Martials in multiclass builds, though that's more a case of the Martials sucking than the monsters being OP.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Threadnaught on July 22, 2017, 08:18:48 PM
Look VN, if you want to play a 20 level build that requires conventional Classes, rather than these ones, you can. However, these Classes are fully capable of being made into part of a 20 level build.
You don't get to benefit from these Classes as though playing a Gestalt game, unless you're actually playing Gestalt.

If you want the benefits these Classes provide, make it into part of the build. There are many official Classes with interesting abilities which also ruin 20 level builds, I don't see you complaining about how bad Monk is for an Incantatrix build.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Versatility_Nut on July 22, 2017, 08:42:48 PM
Look VN, if you want to play a 20 level build that requires conventional Classes, rather than these ones, you can. However, these Classes are fully capable of being made into part of a 20 level build.
You don't get to benefit from these Classes as though playing a Gestalt game, unless you're actually playing Gestalt.

If you want the benefits these Classes provide, make it into part of the build. There are many official Classes with interesting abilities which also ruin 20 level builds, I don't see you complaining about how bad Monk is for an Incantatrix build.
I know perfectly well, it's that there's a bit of frustration in me about making variants of existing, normal, builds that just swap some of the classes in them for these monster classes.

It's more a case of complaining how bad Aranea is for Arcane Trickster builds, which it seems like a good fit for. Because a lot of these casting-type monsters lose progression and don't gain BAB. Dragons are embarrassingly better than any official Martial or gish-in-can class for gish builds by being 3/4 casting and full BAB. They probably are better than Sorcerers in most cases, simply due to better chassis and actual features.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: ketaro on July 22, 2017, 08:54:59 PM
These aren't sounding like actual complaints about the monster classes being bad anymore. This is just becoming mere stubbornness to not want to come up with your own builds based around these monsters and instead just complaining that they don't mesh easily into all the pre-made builds others have made that were not created with homebrew material in mind.

You're not actually critiquing this system now are ya? Just complaining that they don't fit into another system seamlessly.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Versatility_Nut on July 22, 2017, 09:56:33 PM
These aren't sounding like actual complaints about the monster classes being bad anymore. This is just becoming mere stubbornness to not want to come up with your own builds based around these monsters and instead just complaining that they don't mesh easily into all the pre-made builds others have made that were not created with homebrew material in mind.
My issue with it is that only a small minority fit the rather open mechanics niches for properly working in pre-existing character archetypes. 3/4 BAB and partial casting isn't much to ask for, but it's kinda hard to find with actual Martial abilities. Like, Rakshasa? Level-2 Sorc casting, full BAB. Features are about stealth, enchantment and anti-magic, no Martial advantages.

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You're not actually critiquing this system now are ya? Just complaining that they don't fit into another system seamlessly.
The system in question being PRC requirements, not the general game. And it's not so much not doing it seamlessly as much as it is not doing it much at all. I'd be fine if it was extremely clunky about it, but few classes progress Arcane casting and have 3/4 BAB to fill in some caster levels on gish builds. Tome Dragons have 3/4 Wizard casting and full BAB, as an example of an egregious exception/example of just meeting requirements.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: ketaro on July 22, 2017, 10:06:28 PM
Pre-existing character archetypes were never intended for monsters. You work off what the monster is good at, not the other way around.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Versatility_Nut on July 22, 2017, 10:18:33 PM
Pre-existing character archetypes were never intended for monsters. You work off what the monster is good at, not the other way around.
And stuff like Arcane Trickster is well within what Aranea is good at. But they have even worse entry prospects than normal Sorcerers, because they still have 1/2 BAB and then have reduced casting.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: ketaro on July 22, 2017, 10:24:07 PM
Yeah but what does an Aranea have that a human sorcerer doesn't have?
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Versatility_Nut on July 22, 2017, 11:01:38 PM
Yeah but what does an Aranea have that a human sorcerer doesn't have?
Change Shape, which just lets them pass as human, +3 Cha, a variant of Web with uses-per-day and poison. Yes, this covers being a spider well, but that's what Monstrous Spider is for. Aranea is about the Magic. A considerably better question is "what does an Aranea have that a Monstrous Spider doesn't?" And the answer to that is... Spider Sense, and casting. Oh, and Charisma instead of Strength.

Monstrous Spider has full BAB. Monstrous Spider becomes Large at level 2. Monstrous Spider, by 4th level, gets two improvements to Spider-things, both the webs and poison that Aranea get over Sorcerers. Or (Ex) Summon Swarm for spiders once per minute.

Oh, wait, Aranea can hold weapons. And coat said weapons with poison. Which is awfully useful if you can make more than one weapon attack per round, and, indeed, only makes sense when you can actually hit things with weapons. Losing 2 BAB is not conductive to this goal.

If a Sorcerer wants to have Spider things and is willing to give up a level of casting, they get better mileage out of a level of Awakened Monstrous Spider than four levels of Aranea. If they want Spider things to be a Gish, then Aranea is extremely counterproductive to this because Monstrous Spider has twice the BAB. And gives Strength. And considerably more effective Spider-type things.

Aranea should be a Spider-gish in a can, not just "sorcerer, with a web and some poison in exchange for 1 level of casting." Particularly given that it has a Gish ability to coat it's weapons in poison already. 3/4 or 1/2 casting and 3/4 BAB, with spider things being more coherently magic-linked, would be a world better than Aranea. Because at this point, all it gives for a spider-Gish over Monstrous Spider is +3 Cha, not even +2 save DC or a 2nd level slot, and the ability to use their poison on their weapon attacks.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: ketaro on July 22, 2017, 11:17:06 PM
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Aranea should be a Spider-gish in a can

No, I'm pretty sure an Aranea is suppose to be a magical spider. It's about being a monster. You're still thinking of all of this as suppose to be for PCs but these are all monsters first and player options second. The only thing this project really does is make it a lot less rough for a player to play as something that isn't a regular person. But they're still monsters. And thus still clunky to put into a build intended for regular persons.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on July 22, 2017, 11:21:30 PM
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Aranea should be a Spider-gish in a can

No, I'm pretty sure an Aranea is suppose to be a magical spider. It's about being a monster. You're still thinking of all of this as suppose to be for PCs but these are all monsters first and player options second. The only thing this project really does is make it a lot less rough for a player to play as something that isn't a regular person. But they're still monsters. And thus still clunky to put into a build intended for regular persons.

I mean, I'm sure they're still for PC's first, but they were never meant to just randomly fill in PrC or build requirements for extra bonuses at no downside. They're meant to take Racial HD and LA as a guide for how many levels said monster should be worth, then fill them with actual class features and progression rather than, generally, a handful of abilities, some minor stat boosts, stat penalties, and an exorbitant XP pricetag.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Versatility_Nut on July 23, 2017, 12:44:12 AM
No, I'm pretty sure an Aranea is suppose to be a magical spider. It's about being a monster. You're still thinking of all of this as suppose to be for PCs but these are all monsters first and player options second. The only thing this project really does is make it a lot less rough for a player to play as something that isn't a regular person. But they're still monsters. And thus still clunky to put into a build intended for regular persons.
Magical Spider means, essentially, spider-gish in a can. By spider-gish, I mean martial capacity by Spider abilities alongside magic. By means of Webs and Poisons, rather than swording things well. Being able to slot Aranea in place of, say, Rogue on Arcane Archer builds ought to be doable. 1/2 Sorcerer casting for getting gishable Spider abilities with 3/4 BAB.

My complaint isn't it being clunky, as much as it is impossible in quite a few cases people might want it. The Hydra has 1/2 BAB, for God's sake!

I mean, I'm sure they're still for PC's first, but they were never meant to just randomly fill in PrC or build requirements for extra bonuses at no downside. They're meant to take Racial HD and LA as a guide for how many levels said monster should be worth, then fill them with actual class features and progression rather than, generally, a handful of abilities, some minor stat boosts, stat penalties, and an exorbitant XP pricetag.
Given how horrible the first-party full BAB classes are beyond the rare gish-in-a-can that functions, the lack of creatures doing so for BAB requirements is kinda crazy. Like, anything with full BAB and any amount of stacking casting is doing it better than the official stuff.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: ketaro on July 23, 2017, 12:50:58 AM
Hydras have 1/2 BAB here? Okay, okay, fair concern there. Because Magical Beasts (i.e. Hydras) should be Full Bab.....

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Like, anything with full BAB and any amount of stacking casting is doing it better than the official stuff.

 :lmao
Its like there was an expectation for official D&D to be good and balanced?


Anyways, look, in what way is the Arcane Archer PrC meant to be entered by an Aranea? Official PrCs were made with the intent to be entered by specific classes. Where in anything is an Aranea on that list? And what reason would an Aranea become an Arcane Archer for just cause a couple of its stuff could maybe work with it.
Like, shoot, of course you COULD make an Aranea go into Arcane Archer, not sayin' ya can't. Hell, it can enter easier than a Rogue could, or rather you get a hell of a lot more out of using Aranea in such a build than you would from a Rogue so actually I don't understand your point here.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on July 23, 2017, 12:52:31 AM
I mean, I'm sure they're still for PC's first, but they were never meant to just randomly fill in PrC or build requirements for extra bonuses at no downside. They're meant to take Racial HD and LA as a guide for how many levels said monster should be worth, then fill them with actual class features and progression rather than, generally, a handful of abilities, some minor stat boosts, stat penalties, and an exorbitant XP pricetag.
Given how horrible the first-party full BAB classes are beyond the rare gish-in-a-can that functions, the lack of creatures doing so for BAB requirements is kinda crazy. Like, anything with full BAB and any amount of stacking casting is doing it better than the official stuff.

... then I don't get your issue.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Versatility_Nut on July 23, 2017, 01:38:23 AM
Hydras have 1/2 BAB here? Okay, okay, fair concern there. Because Magical Beasts (i.e. Hydras) should be Full Bab.....

Actually, the guidelines say to ignore the racial chassis:

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2-If it's not an undead or construct, then ignore the basic monster saves, skills, proefeciencies and Bab progression. The monster class will have those based on the extra abilities they have. The more and/or better abilities, the worst saves/skills/Bab/proefeciencies the monster should have.

... then I don't get your issue.
The inability to use many of these classes with many previous builds as substitution. In most builds, Fighter and Barbarian are interchangeable for prerequisites. There's a few times when feats are needed, but it's extremely rare for a build to not be able to have some Fighter levels replacable with Barbarian ones. Martial Rogue can swap for Fighter in many of those cases where BAB isn't on a hard schedule, and level-shuffling can often solve that problem.

Aranea can replace the role of Sorcerer only in builds with an excess level of Sorcerer early on, and cannot replace 3/4 BAB, which several of it's features suffer for, relative to other monster classes, as their Dex bonuses don't even bring them up to 3/4 BAB's total attack bonus. Unlike Hydra, which gets enough extra Strength to be a little over 3/4 BAB equivalent.

Contrast Tome Dragon, the single most egregious exception to this problem by being one in an opposite direction. You have Fighter in there just for full BAB levels? Swap and replace with 3/4 Wizard casting and piles of actual features. Literally always better beyond feat prerequisites.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: ketaro on July 23, 2017, 02:00:36 AM
Huh, yanno I didn't know about that rule about ignoring the racial chassis ya quoted, but reading it now makes me feel I definitely read that before so...... -_-'

As for the Aranea stuff. Look, if it doesn't work for the build in mind, you go find something else that fits in better. That's pretty much how every choice in this game works, no?

As for Tome Dragon.....I checked it and it has 3/4 BAB, not full BAB, but for a heavily casting focused kind of dragon I suppose that is pretty high and might be better lower.
On the other hand, dragons are literally dragons and thems, like, suppose to be some if not the most powerful creatures so it's simple enough to let that pass... *shrugs*
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on July 23, 2017, 09:06:10 AM
So... your issue is that you can't simply take a more powerful class and slot it into a pre-existing build without downsides? That's lazy.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Versatility_Nut on July 23, 2017, 03:32:37 PM
So... your issue is that you can't simply take a more powerful class and slot it into a pre-existing build without downsides? That's lazy.
It's that I can't do it at all for a bunch of them. Due to full BAB being unavailable on a lot of things I'd want it on, and quite a few bruisers using stat bonuses instead of having BAB, which I'm actually fine with mechanically beyond the prerequisites screwing it causes.

Like, half-BAB Hydras are unable to use the majority of the prexisting content that would help them. 3/4 BAB would give them the equivalent attack bonus of full BAB due to their strength bonuses, which would make their damage output insane because every attack is made at full BAB.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Versatility_Nut on August 01, 2017, 01:40:16 AM
So, I'm working on racial substitution levels for Psychic Warrior for my Crysmal monster class. This made me remember that Monstrous Spiders of 16 or more HD actually have to give regular class levels to their Monstrous Spider spawn, restricting them to Fighter and Barbarian levels. This is making me thing of having class variants or substitution levels for the basic Martials to have them support Monster classes better, like redefining Monk's Unarmed Strike as increasing the damage die size of natural weapons instead of unarmed strikes.

One of the things I'm doing for PsyWar substitution levels is having ability score increases that cut off if you don't take one of the substitution levels at a lower pace than Crysmal gets them. I'm also giving Sting damage dice increases that need only the first substitution level which motivate me to have only 11th level offer Crysmal growth. Because it hits 2d6 for Tiny Crysmals at 17th level, which means 4d6 at Medium size. Which is attainable by taking three levels of Crysmal and 17 levels of Psychic Warrior, and Expansion allows for 8d6 per hit at Huge size.

...Okay, scrapping the bit where only the first substitution level is needed for the damage increases. Four size increases for damage dice and +9 Con/+6 Str is well worth three feats. Because Crysmal Growth is basically a weird bonus feat, I'm not counting that as a lost bonus feat.

But yeah. What do you people think about making some semi-generalized Monster variants of existing classes? Like a set of Fighter substitution levels that gives a bundle of natural attack benefits and boosts Str a bunch in exchange for lost bonus feats. Or Rogue swapping some Sneak Attack dice for improvements to poison. It can give some rather strong help to classes that need it by giving them a significantly more useful focus.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: oslecamo on August 01, 2017, 05:52:19 AM
There's still a bunch of other things here to reply to but something now demands a bit more priority.

...Okay, scrapping the bit where only the first substitution level is needed for the damage increases. Four size increases for damage dice and +9 Con/+6 Str is well worth three feats. Because Crysmal Growth is basically a weird bonus feat, I'm not counting that as a lost bonus feat.
Growth alone is well worth one feat, as per the Titanic Creature and Extra Option feat here. You can't even do it in official D&D. For ability scores you get +1 per feat as per Monster Blooded or an epic feat going for official D&D. A feat that grants 4/3 of a size increase with +3 Con and +2 Str on top is way out of scale with everything else here.

But yeah. What do you people think about making some semi-generalized Monster variants of existing classes? Like a set of Fighter substitution levels that gives a bundle of natural attack benefits and boosts Str a bunch in exchange for lost bonus feats. Or Rogue swapping some Sneak Attack dice for improvements to poison. It can give some rather strong help to classes that need it by giving them a significantly more useful focus.
Then you're missing the point. Fighter/barbarian are used in things like the monsterous spider because they're simple and not too strong-perfect for mass produced expendable mooks. Making the process more complicated and powerful is thus kinda against the whole point of mooks.

For non-mook monster builds, that's what template classes are for. The Paragon in particular just happens to be the most popular piece of work here. Then the already mentioned Titanic Creature, Monster of Legend, Evolved Undead, Elder Eidolong, Half-Whatever, etc.

Well I guess I can't exactly stop you if that's your motivation, but I'll ask to at least take in account what's already done.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Versatility_Nut on August 02, 2017, 04:47:39 AM
There's still a bunch of other things here to reply to but something now demands a bit more priority.
Referring to my mechanical blunders? Or something you're doing on a different sub-forum?

Quote
Growth alone is well worth one feat, as per the Titanic Creature and Extra Option feat here. You can't even do it in official D&D. For ability scores you get +1 per feat as per Monster Blooded or an epic feat going for official D&D. A feat that grants 4/3 of a size increase with +3 Con and +2 Str on top is way out of scale with everything else here.
...Cross-referencing with other mechanics, including some of the overwhelming potential for rocket-tagging I found in the PsyWar power list, I agree. I keep thinking of how overwhelming builds can get and keep overcompensating for the mechanical failings I see, so I keep having inflated numbers for the sake of dragging closer to functional status. Downed the scaling to one Con per 3 levels and one Str per 4 levels, so level 17 is down to +5/+4 rather than the previous +8/+5.

Quote
Then you're missing the point. Fighter/barbarian are used in things like the monsterous spider because they're simple and not too strong-perfect for mass produced expendable mooks. Making the process more complicated and powerful is thus kinda against the whole point of mooks.
It'd add just one more step to the process of making the mook, that of choosing replacement levels. Which is kinda already an option, given the lack of wording against it. Designing it to not increase active play complexity would take some effort, but replacing Fighter bonus feats with static bonuses built to be generic monster-friendly improvements reduces complexity of the mook creation and makes playing them much more straightforward. Similarly, rendering stuff like Totem Barbarian, primary source of Pounce for Uberchargers, inaccessible reduces complexity of play and potential power at the same time.

Quote
For non-mook monster builds, that's what template classes are for. The Paragon in particular just happens to be the most popular piece of work here. Then the already mentioned Titanic Creature, Monster of Legend, Evolved Undead, Elder Eidolong, Half-Whatever, etc.
I fully understand that. But sometimes, you really want generic progression for broad categories to prevent extensive decision making. Because sometimes, people don't want to dig through all the creatures and templates to progress the thing they picked one for in the first place, so they want a clean, generic, progressing option for that thing. Like Poison.

Quote
Well I guess I can't exactly stop you if that's your motivation, but I'll ask to at least take in account what's already done.
Will do. Or at least try to do.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: ketaro on August 02, 2017, 05:25:00 AM
There's no wording against ACFs for Fighter/Barbarian levels for mooks likely because all of this content is highly suggested to not reference anything official outside Core for ease of play. Which means it could also be likely that all mooks restricted to Fighter/Barbarian weren't intended to have feats/ACFs/ect from sources outside Core but that's a point for clarification ;)
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Versatility_Nut on August 02, 2017, 04:16:08 PM
There's no wording against ACFs for Fighter/Barbarian levels for mooks likely because all of this content is highly suggested to not reference anything official outside Core for ease of play. Which means it could also be likely that all mooks restricted to Fighter/Barbarian weren't intended to have feats/ACFs/ect from sources outside Core but that's a point for clarification ;)
Well, reducing overall feat numbers on Fighter still reduces complexity a bunch, so it's still useful. Reworking Barbarian to have less complexity is a bit hard, due to the utter lack of it they have, but there's ways to do that. Rendering things into more statblock focus over finicky triggers like Trap Sense would be just about the only thing. I suppose this could include overhauling Rage into something with only in the moment bookkeeping.

Really, it works best for stuff that has option-heavy building, like anything Psionic, particularly PsyWar due to bonus feats. Reducing options reduces complexity significantly, and streamlining play is vital with minion-heavy setups.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Yasahiro on September 20, 2017, 09:17:41 AM
I must ask a few questions.

1. Why is there no Entropic creature template class? There's Vivacious but negative energy is discriminated? Is it because it's dark colored?

2. Ye guys have all fiends but no Kluchirir who is even stronger than balor, eh?

3. Finally, I just want to ask. Growth in classes like Giants where HD is mentioned use character level and racial HD, right? Not class level? And so if one were to gestalt two giant classes, the increases in size stack?
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: TC X0 Lt 0X on September 20, 2017, 02:31:10 PM
I must ask a few questions.

1. Why is there no Entropic creature template class? There's Vivacious but negative energy is discriminated? Is it because it's dark colored?

2. Ye guys have all fiends but no Kluchirir who is even stronger than balor, eh?

3. Finally, I just want to ask. Growth in classes like Giants where HD is mentioned use character level and racial HD, right? Not class level? And so if one were to gestalt two giant classes, the increases in size stack?

1. Well the only reason I made Vivacious is because I wanted my murder healer. I might also be racist, or at least thats what the far left tells me when I laugh at people training their Dogs to do Nazi Salutes. Who really knows.

2. What source are Kluchirir from? Non-Core stuff is (as one might expect) a little rarer, so that's probably why it hasnt been done yet. The more prominent stuff (or the stuff creators like) tends to be made more often.

3. As far as I know any class features that mentions scaling based off HD should scale after taking levels of said class, but I would wait for Osle to confirm anything specific. As for my stuff they certainly do, but I dont have any Giants (besides unfinished Oni) so they are not to relevant regardless. Its probably not a problem regardless, as far as Gestalt is concerned there is an expectation you can do some crazy stuff like dual Monsters (as far as Monster classes are concerned) If not 2 Giants stacking then any other monster that grows in size could replace the later I think. How early are said Giants getting the growth class feature though? Growth is usually not okay at Lv1 unless you have some major penalty associated with it. If you got to take a few levels to pick up scaling growth it is probably fine. Also remember that outside of monster classes, most standard classes dont grant bonuses to ability scores, which as far as Growth is concerned which doesnt have ability score bonuses for getting bigger, offsets the growing penalties you get from size. Within the system you also usually can't multiclass 2 base monsters without the hybrid feat or the hybrid Prc (forget what they are specificlly called, but they are there.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: oslecamo on September 22, 2017, 04:51:02 AM
Osle, I'd like you to edit your first post here (http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=270.0) so Tortoise, Dire (http://www.minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=9520.0), is in the Animals Spoiler as Dire Tortoise (http://www.minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=9520.0). Just so all the animals are in the same place.
Fixed, thanks!

I must ask a few questions.

1. Why is there no Entropic creature template class? There's Vivacious but negative energy is discriminated? Is it because it's dark colored?

2. Ye guys have all fiends but no Kluchirir who is even stronger than balor, eh?

3. Finally, I just want to ask. Growth in classes like Giants where HD is mentioned use character level and racial HD, right? Not class level? And so if one were to gestalt two giant classes, the increases in size stack?
1. Because nobody requested it and I didn't even knew it existed.
2. See above.  :P
3. HD gained from class levels counts just as HD gained from monster class levels. In a gestalt guess they would stack since despite they basically being the same ability with the same exact name, there's a bit of variance. Like you can't stack two sources of sneak attack, but you can stack sneak attack with sudden strike.

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Yasahiro on September 22, 2017, 04:45:26 PM
Osle, I'd like you to edit your first post here (http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=270.0) so Tortoise, Dire (http://www.minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=9520.0), is in the Animals Spoiler as Dire Tortoise (http://www.minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=9520.0). Just so all the animals are in the same place.
Fixed, thanks!

I must ask a few questions.

1. Why is there no Entropic creature template class? There's Vivacious but negative energy is discriminated? Is it because it's dark colored?

2. Ye guys have all fiends but no Kluchirir who is even stronger than balor, eh?

3. Finally, I just want to ask. Growth in classes like Giants where HD is mentioned use character level and racial HD, right? Not class level? And so if one were to gestalt two giant classes, the increases in size stack?
1. Because nobody requested it and I didn't even knew it existed.
2. See above.  :P
3. HD gained from class levels counts just as HD gained from monster class levels. In a gestalt guess they would stack since despite they basically being the same ability with the same exact name, there's a bit of variance. Like you can't stack two sources of sneak attack, but you can stack sneak attack with sudden strike.

(click to show/hide)

Oh, so gestalt or multiclass with two giant classes amounts to Colossal++ at 20 HD. Got it right.

Well then I request Entropic and Kluchirir :P would ask for possible PRC that requires both Entropic and Vivacious but feel like it's might be too much to ask.

I DO want to ask for Jungle Giants, though!


Edit: Just now my brain realized there is specific topic for requests... Although it feels like it's underused or underviewed
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Versatility_Nut on October 21, 2017, 12:18:53 AM
An idea that popped into my head because of an abysmally-designed class over on GiantITP is having a few Construct classes that have a short list of options at first level, then the rest of the class advances those abilities selected at first level. Fixed hardware, but advancing software.

The actual context was a lazily-overhauled Warlock being used to represent Mei from Overwatch. Now, there's a guy, theperfect25, who's done a bunch of 3.5 classes for Overwatch characters, themed on the characters rather than specifically representing the associated character. For example, Torbjiorn's turret having a bundle of support options and Reaper having a melee weapon available(even though the idea of fixed-weapon martials is something that pisses me off to no end...)

The ones I was thinking about were Orisa and Bastion. The actual character Bastion is literally malfunctioning, because it has a mind of its own. Bastion units are intended to be autonomous drones with no free will, managed by a central AI. This bit everyone in the ass when the super-AIs made to micromanage all the processing-intensive stuff decided to take over the world... At any rate, Bastion has an utterly fixed design with hardware, with no room for changing it outside of shenanigans with self-repair to non-standard blueprints. But altering software, like overriding fire governors for burst fire instead of rapid fire or forcing the "self repair" systems to weld on more armor plating and external weapons, offers significant customization options.

In Orisa's case, there's manipulating the barriers to have very different effects, like reducing its value as cover to make it deal Electricity damage to anything going through it, projectiles included. So physical, theoretically-Sunderable projectiles are incinerated on the way through... Manipulating the firing mechanism for the shield projector and shape means it can be used to directly improvise a Reinhardt shield to give one-way line of effect blocking. Of course, it can be more useful to use it with a Run and dealing damage to anything that "passes through" it to turn your Runs into supercharged Chain Lightnings. Overriding whatever forces only one of the four barrels to fire at a time means being able to do harsh burst fire instead of rapid fire, allowing for multiple attacks per Standard Action, thus leaving the Move Action open after a larger amount of damage. Full Attacks would take a hit in damage while in that firing mode, but sometimes mobility is worth lower DPR.

For Bastion, you get significantly less if you don't do shenanigans with the self-repair system. Fortunately, shenanigans with self-repair systems have enough of a gradient for them to be a major aspect of progression. At the most basic, there's nothing preventing the use of the self-repair systems for welding on more armor plating other than not having the firmware to do it. This means being able to use normal armor, probably gated behind a Craft check, in the same way Bardic Music is gated behind a Perform check. You need the ranks to do it, and some functions require an actual check, but most of the time it's just needing ranks. Altering the energy type of inbuilt weapons could be a use for magical weapons to deconstruct, while precise fire saturation could be used for reduced or even inverted Iterative Attack penalties, making attack spam workable. Some of the stuff that was used for Bastion in beta makes for lovely openings, like the access to an explosive drone that can be given a lot of weirdness with minor changes in construction.

First level picks basically amount to model type, like a Bastion being given an energy weapon instead of a machine gun and explosive cannon(how the hell do both fit?), or an OR series being given a different kind of projector in replacement of the Supercharger. A Bastion has much more shenanigans in this territory due to being a three-mode transformer with three different devices. The tank mode can carry a shield projector, or a healing zone, or a portal that summons bound Fiends straight from the front lines of the Blood War... What? It'd be a D&D Monster Class, getting the D&D cosmology involved is perfectly valid... The OR-series has a bit more than just replacing the buff of the Supercharger with a healing device or a shield projector. It can be debuffs, too, and the shield can be made into a single-target buffer or an auto-healer. Or a personal shield generator to protect a target. Or a plasma explosive, if you want a pure offensive option.

Pointing more towards D&D, stuff like Clockwork Horrors and Ruin Elementals, and various other fixed-though-variable composition Constructs, Elementals and Undead, can have options to expand the uses of the stuff they were initially made with. Some of the Alchemist Homunculi could be options... and I now realize most of those things haven't been given monster classes. Probably because balancing the things for Artificers becomes nigh impossible.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Anomander on October 22, 2017, 11:48:09 PM
There is a faq answer for growing, but if you get a monster class that makes you smaller, but want to keep your current size. What happens?
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: oslecamo on October 23, 2017, 11:39:45 PM
There is a faq answer for growing, but if you get a monster class that makes you smaller, but want to keep your current size. What happens?
Nothing, because the only monster class right now that reduces size is the Miniature creature. If you don't want to go smaller, you can just don't pick the prc whose main purpose is making you smaller.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: oslecamo on November 02, 2017, 08:35:59 AM
An idea that popped into my head because of an abysmally-designed class over on GiantITP is having a few Construct classes that have a short list of options at first level, then the rest of the class advances those abilities selected at first level. Fixed hardware, but advancing software.

The actual context was a lazily-overhauled Warlock being used to represent Mei from Overwatch. Now, there's a guy, theperfect25, who's done a bunch of 3.5 classes for Overwatch characters, themed on the characters rather than specifically representing the associated character. For example, Torbjiorn's turret having a bundle of support options and Reaper having a melee weapon available(even though the idea of fixed-weapon martials is something that pisses me off to no end...)

Overwatch is a game I don't play, but some monster classes like the centaur (http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=932.0) follows the "short list of options at first level, then the rest of the class advances those abilities selected at first level" design pattern. It's a perfectly valid way of doing things.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Versatility_Nut on November 03, 2017, 01:41:16 AM
Overwatch is a game I don't play, but some monster classes like the centaur (http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=932.0) follows the "short list of options at first level, then the rest of the class advances those abilities selected at first level" design pattern. It's a perfectly valid way of doing things.

Yea, it does model subspecies pretty well... Temptation to make a Drider PRC that runs with this idea for spider-type selection is pretty strong, as is making a few Monstrous Spider AFCs that makes the Hunter/Weaver seperation more pronounced by removing access to certain tricks, and adds a dedicated "broodmother" option to the blatant focus. Two focuses could work for that, given that there's some spiders that actively hunt using thrown web to catch and reel in prey, while there's sedentary spiders that don't actually have much use for webs outside setting up their home and instead rely on stupidly powerful poison to actually accomplish things.

Edit: As an aside, I've been thinking about what to do for other Crysmal substitution levels. What to swap for Artificer and Wilder, as those are the two main things I'm thinking of as "natural" progressions beyond the existing setup. Wilder gives much better blasting potential, Artificer is fluffery and feat use access. Of course, I'd need a decent Psionic Artificer overhaul for that...
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Versatility_Nut on November 09, 2017, 09:43:46 AM
I do apoligise for the double post(even though it's been almost a week), but I'm kind working out some of the basics of AFCs and/or substitution levels for various "simple" classes for use with stuff like the Monstrous Spider's spawning. At a glance, these are the things I'm considering:

Rogue: Swap Sneak Attack with ability DC increases, removing extra rolls and boosting reliability of something that typically has issues at higher levels, even with the 10+1/2 HD baseline.
Fighter: Automatic improvement to Natural Attacks based on the Weapon Focus tree, with flat numbers where multipliers would be. Also flat improvements to critical range and Con damage.
Barbarian: Shift Rage to be more like Power Attack/Shock Trooper, with the scaling being how much you get per AC lost and having the maximum penalty to AC be based on Con or HD.

Basically, cut out the various extra rolls, daily uses, option lists and so on.

---

Also, more on possible Crysmal substitution levels:

(Psionic) Artificer: Likely to homebrew the class used to be a proper Psionic Artificer, alongside some additional Psionic constructs, making Astral Construct more versatile to compete with Summon Monster and generally making Psionics better compete with Magic in this corner of the game. Alternative features centering on making the WBL-mancer playstyle more viable, cutting out the Homunculus access for a set of abnormal Psionic constructs of similar fluff on the basic version of the class and swapping that for an improved version of the Crysmal Crafting feat I whipped up. Item recharge, too. Basically, dump everything into massive Djore, Drilbuu and Psicrown power.

Wilder: Probably going to be a rather heavily blaster focused version of the class, probably altering Wild Surge to have a different, less long-term punishing, backlash effect while changing it from over-augment to discount. And obviously use Crysmal levels for some Manifesting progression. 3/4 BAB does make it lightly gish, but the Gish role is clearly occupied by Psychic Warrior already. Maybe shift to buff/debuff focus, so that it could gish if wanted.

---

While I'm at it with this post, there's some things I'd like to bring up regarding the current standard for the monster classes. A lot of these monster classes have some pretty nice things come out of hit dice advancement. For example, Worgs become Large at 7 HD and have full BAB the whole way there. A three or four level Worg class that gets growth at the last level would make a lot of sense, because it then becomes usable as a mount for a standard-size character. Quite a few of the Medium Animals and Magical Beasts are effective mounts once you give them a few more HD.

Maybe solve this issue by having one of those acquirable templates literally everyone puts on their mount whenever possible as a PRC that gives a size increase and Ideal Cohort. Something to solve this awkward situation where you have so many Medium Animals and Magical Beasts that would be absolutely amazing mounts if only they were Large.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: oslecamo on November 15, 2017, 08:16:17 PM
I do apoligise for the double post(even though it's been almost a week), but I'm kind working out some of the basics of AFCs and/or substitution levels for various "simple" classes for use with stuff like the Monstrous Spider's spawning. At a glance, these are the things I'm considering:

Rogue: Swap Sneak Attack with ability DC increases, removing extra rolls and boosting reliability of something that typically has issues at higher levels, even with the 10+1/2 HD baseline.
Fighter: Automatic improvement to Natural Attacks based on the Weapon Focus tree, with flat numbers where multipliers would be. Also flat improvements to critical range and Con damage.
Barbarian: Shift Rage to be more like Power Attack/Shock Trooper, with the scaling being how much you get per AC lost and having the maximum penalty to AC be based on Con or HD.

Basically, cut out the various extra rolls, daily uses, option lists and so on.

Rogue isn't really one of the options for monster minion levels, in particular it brings a lot of extra baggage in the form of buckets of skill points and whatnot.

Poison with two different damage types isn't exactly simplifying things. Extra rolls, extra things to keep track of. Also thematically bad since D&D monstrous spiders would like the targets still healthy and juicy for eating. Why not just slap the flat bonuses acf in the fighter? It's kinda the main stick of that class.

Power Attack/Shock Trooper by any other name means it stacks with power Attack/Shock Trooper and also means even more work on the form of needing to re-calculate things every round.

While I'm at it with this post, there's some things I'd like to bring up regarding the current standard for the monster classes. A lot of these monster classes have some pretty nice things come out of hit dice advancement. For example, Worgs become Large at 7 HD and have full BAB the whole way there. A three or four level Worg class that gets growth at the last level would make a lot of sense, because it then becomes usable as a mount for a standard-size character. Quite a few of the Medium Animals and Magical Beasts are effective mounts once you give them a few more HD.

Maybe solve this issue by having one of those acquirable templates literally everyone puts on their mount whenever possible as a PRC that gives a size increase and Ideal Cohort. Something to solve this awkward situation where you have so many Medium Animals and Magical Beasts that would be absolutely amazing mounts if only they were Large.
If a class is meant to be a glorified pet, then it already gets Ideal Cohort by default. For getting bigger, that's literally the whole reason of existence for Titanic Creature.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on November 16, 2017, 10:35:17 AM
Quote
Also thematically bad since spiders would like the targets still healthy and juicy for eating.

Well, no, they'd rather that your insides were already a pre-digested soup. That's what their venom does.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: oslecamo on November 16, 2017, 11:22:03 AM
I stand corrected, D&D monstrous spiders want their victims still healthy and juicy for eating, dealing Str damage. It's also not thematic if the smaller minion's poison ends more deadly than the mother's.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Versatility_Nut on November 16, 2017, 02:02:36 PM
Rogue isn't really one of the options for monster minion levels, in particular it brings a lot of extra baggage in the form of buckets of skill points and whatnot.
...How I forgot about the bloated to hell and back skill points of Rogue, I'm not sure. Pretty big reason to avoid using Rogue at all, if it's avoidable.

Quote
Poison with two different damage types isn't exactly simplifying things. Extra rolls, extra things to keep track of. Also thematically bad since spiders would like the targets still healthy and juicy for eating. Why not just slap the flat bonuses acf in the fighter? It's kinda the main stick of that class.
Not another Poison damage type, more like Wounding where it's a flat amount of Con damage. And this isn't just for the Spiders, really, it's for all such things. Including the eventual . Monk has so many abilities to track that can't be purely ignored(save bonuses, extra health, fiddly uses-per-day) that using that to progress a Natural Attack spam monster runs into overcomplication fairly quickly.

Quote
Power Attack/Shock Trooper by any other name means it stacks with power Attack/Shock Trooper and also means even more work on the form of needing to re-calculate things every round.
Some number-crunching on the penalties to make it harshly unlikely to get away with stacking mostly works around the issue with stacking, and the stacking issue is largely a problem for when it's in use by players. The round-to-round recalculation is kinda silly coming from the guy who gives 7 or so choices from a list including 15 or more options, several being unlimited repicks, for a CR 5 creature that's only going to see 5 rounds of combat.

The more I think about it, the more I realize that it'd be better making better generic progression PRCs, like just a general-use poison improvement option, or flight tricks for keeping flying enemies annoying past 7th level(yes, Fly comes in at 5th level, but the slots are only enough for the whole party at 7th and above)

And again, the more I think about it, the more I want to set to work overhauling a lot of the basic monsters to be more realistically usable as monsters. As-is, they just have too many options among them for serious use as NPCs or as just actual monsters, unless you're using a premade setup. And none of the threads have example builds, so DMs wanting to use these classes for their monsters have to make all those choices themselves. They're very much making the appearance of being made for PC use, is what I'm saying, and this poses a problem due to the fact that they're supposed to be used for monsters.

Quote
If a class is meant to be a glorified pet, then it already gets Ideal Cohort by default. For getting bigger, that's literally the whole reason of existence for Titanic Creature.
The thing is that a lot of the Ideal Cohort monsters cap out at Medium. Because their Large size is in the HD progression the vast majority of these classes ignore. A Worg Cohort can't be a mount to a Medium player without either crazy penalties or burning a feat. Same for a lot of the other Magical Beats and Animals with the Ideal Cohort feature. And then there's the kickass Animals and Magical Beasts that don't have Ideal Cohort, cap out at Medium, and have stuff really, really useful for being a mount. Whether it's flight, being able to avoid getting splattered, having a burrow speed to just lolnope being in line of effect of any hazards or having lots of Charge assistance, there's quite a few Medium-sized quadropeds that'd be kickass mounts, and a lot of the existing kickass mounts have the problem of only reaching Large size when you give them two or three more hit dice.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: ketaro on November 17, 2017, 01:11:41 AM
Quote
And again, the more I think about it, the more I want to set to work overhauling a lot of the basic monsters to be more realistically usable as monsters. As-is, they just have too many options among them for serious use as NPCs or as just actual monsters, unless you're using a premade setup. And none of the threads have example builds, so DMs wanting to use these classes for their monsters have to make all those choices themselves. They're very much making the appearance of being made for PC use, is what I'm saying, and this poses a problem due to the fact that they're supposed to be used for monsters.

Hey VN, I'm pretty sure we've said before that, yes, Oslecamo's Improved Monster Classes are intended for PC (player) use first and everything else second. It's pretty straight-forwardly said so in the Introduction & FAQ thread in this subforum... -_-'
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on November 17, 2017, 01:20:03 AM
Quote
They're very much making the appearance of being made for PC use, is what I'm saying, and this poses a problem due to the fact that they're supposed to be used for monsters.

As said, the point of monster classes is to be used for PC's. For monsters, you honestly don't need classes or even hitdice. Sure, they're a nice thing to use to quickly generate something or to create premade stats, but you just need the numbers and abilities to be roughly in the right area for a party.

The point of monster classes is explicitly to let people play monster races without getting 10 racial hitddice that give fuck all and then +5 LA before they start getting anything but a tiny generic bag of monster abilities and some weird and random stat bonuses.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: TC X0 Lt 0X on November 17, 2017, 02:12:32 AM
Eh I've used these monster classes for NPCs quite a few times, it works out pretty well as is. There are a few issues here and there for sure, but I still definitely prefer it over pulling monsters from the books for customization alone (and since I usually do this for e6 I can further customize with feats in any number I want).

That all said monster classes should first and foremost be made for PC use. If the designers want to add additional features making monsters more suited for NPC use AFTER accomplishing to make the monster a suitable class for PCs then I'm all for it. Hell, I think it should be common practice if we had some base guidelines to follow (replacing what we get out of core and terrible CR), though I don't know how viable that would be to integrate with monster classes. People don't always have time (or a desire for that matter) to do that though, and it shouldn't be expected.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Archon on November 17, 2017, 07:32:32 AM
Eh I've used these monster classes for NPCs quite a few times, it works out pretty well as is. There are a few issues here and there for sure, but I still definitely prefer it over pulling monsters from the books for customization alone (and since I usually do this for e6 I can further customize with feats in any number I want).

That all said monster classes should first and foremost be made for PC use. If the designers want to add additional features making monsters more suited for NPC use AFTER accomplishing to make the monster a suitable class for PCs then I'm all for it. Hell, I think it should be common practice if we had some base guidelines to follow (replacing what we get out of core and terrible CR), though I don't know how viable that would be to integrate with monster classes. People don't always have time (or a desire for that matter) to do that though, and it shouldn't be expected.

You could take a leaf out of 5e's book here, with its quick build guidelines. Write a paragraph of "to make a quick default build, use these attributes, take this feat and these choices. That makes it good at x and y." That would make it interesting. In general I think its good to have a summery of the basic intended build of a class at the top of it. Makes life simpler, and building quicker, especially for a one-off you don't want to memorise.

And of course these should be for PC use. That's the whole point of having classes and not stat-blocks.

Also, I like the idea of useing these classes for e6. I think that would work quite well.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Versatility_Nut on November 17, 2017, 10:10:44 AM
...Sorry about the wording, what I was getting at is that these classes appear made for PCs with no regard to the use of them as monsters, due to the complexity involved. This is a problem because the monsters will be massively underwhelming compared to the PC equivalents if you use the MM forms, but would be nonsensically overcomplicated if you use these classes. They are covered in the level of choice-making common to Pathfinder spellcasters, which is actually bad class design in general unless you're very good at preventing trap options.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on November 17, 2017, 10:14:00 AM
...Sorry about the wording, what I was getting at is that these classes appear made for PCs with no regard to the use of them as monsters, due to the complexity involved. This is a problem because the monsters will be massively underwhelming compared to the PC equivalents if you use the MM forms, but would be nonsensically overcomplicated if you use these classes. They are covered in the level of choice-making common to Pathfinder spellcasters, which is actually bad class design in general unless you're very good at preventing trap options.

If you want to make monsters, you don't need to follow the rules. They're more what you'd call... guidelines.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: oslecamo on November 17, 2017, 10:25:35 AM
...Sorry about the wording, what I was getting at is that these classes appear made for PCs with no regard to the use of them as monsters, due to the complexity involved. This is a problem because the monsters will be massively underwhelming compared to the PC equivalents if you use the MM forms, but would be nonsensically overcomplicated if you use these classes. They are covered in the level of choice-making common to Pathfinder spellcasters, which is actually bad class design in general unless you're very good at preventing trap options.

Says the person adding manifesting to 100% of their monster classes and wanting to add acfs like there's no tomorrow.  :p

Either way I'm not against extra monster versions (chimera's got two in the index and everything), so if you want to do simplified versions of something sure go ahead. Adding extra options isn't even in the guidelines anyway.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Versatility_Nut on November 17, 2017, 10:57:05 AM
If you want to make monsters, you don't need to follow the rules. They're more what you'd call... guidelines.
It's that not every DM has the time or will to be making full statblocks and they're liable to face players expecting similar capabilities between their monster characters and the monsters faced by the party. A dozen Small Monstrous Spiders is a reasonable encounter for a level 5 or so party, but literally cannot be done here because the Monstrous Spider class starts at Medium and, if it was, there'd almost certainly be two or three options to make. God help them if they want a Colossal Broodmother, because that's making statblocks with all those choices each time another Monstrous Spider is spawned and the spawned Swarms have 55 extra HP. Each.

And that's not to mention the problematic situation of mid-combat spawns making the CR rules utterly bizarre because you've got a CR 11 creature spawning CR 7 creatures and CR 1 Swarms, all with significantly enhanced capabilities beyond their normal statblock. Four of those CR 7 spawned spiders should be the same challenge rating as the one that spawned them, and this takes an amount of time that can actually happen in a fight.

In general, the big problem with it all is that a lot of stuff doesn't play nice with encounter design and designing the classes purely for PCs causes problems when the players expect to be facing similarly-versatile opponents.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on November 17, 2017, 11:00:50 AM
Quote
It's that not every DM has the time or will to be making full statblocks

You don't need to be making full stat blocks for something that'll only be around for one fight.

HP, AC, to-hit, movement, saves, then any details (extra attacks etc) you think it needs. If a monster class has an ability you want the monster to have? Give it to the thing. Make similar notes for summons in advance.

CR is an imperfect measure anyway.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: oslecamo on November 17, 2017, 11:17:28 AM
If you want to make monsters, you don't need to follow the rules. They're more what you'd call... guidelines.
It's that not every DM has the time or will to be making full statblocks and they're liable to face players expecting similar capabilities between their monster characters and the monsters faced by the party. A dozen Small Monstrous Spiders is a reasonable encounter for a level 5 or so party, but literally cannot be done here because the Monstrous Spider class starts at Medium and, if it was, there'd almost certainly be two or three options to make.
There's a trait in the traits/feat thread to start small, and even a flaw to go another size smaller from start.

God help them if they want a Colossal Broodmother, because that's making statblocks with all those choices each time another Monstrous Spider is spawned and the spawned Swarms have 55 extra HP. Each.
Eerr, just re-use the same stat-block?

And that's not to mention the problematic situation of mid-combat spawns making the CR rules utterly bizarre because you've got a CR 11 creature spawning CR 7 creatures and CR 1 Swarms, all with significantly enhanced capabilities beyond their normal statblock. Four of those CR 7 spawned spiders should be the same challenge rating as the one that spawned them, and this takes an amount of time that can actually happen in a fight.

Tell that to any summoner/necromancer/druid.

The core 3.5 succubus also has the infamous 30% chance to summon a much stronger demon, meaning either she wasted a turn or suddenly the battle becomes much harder out of nowhere.

Balor can just summon another Balor.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Versatility_Nut on November 19, 2017, 04:33:56 PM
Says the person adding manifesting to 100% of their monster classes and wanting to add acfs like there's no tomorrow.  :p

Either way I'm not against extra monster versions (chimera's got two in the index and everything), so if you want to do simplified versions of something sure go ahead. Adding extra options isn't even in the guidelines anyway.
I can rework Crysmal to be PLAs with cooldowns or daily uses that approximate PP usage, you know. Or, indeed, make a simplified version that has a set progression of abilities. Or give a baseline build for a typical Crysmal, and one for a slightly-better Elite array variety.

As for AFCs, I've kinda decided to shift a bit away from pure Psionics. The reason for going with Psychic Warrior as the first pick was, essentially, to keep to having them as mostly melee. The blasting inclusion is mainly to add a form of reliable ranged damage, which Psychic Warrior usually lacks. Now that I think back on it, I'm thinking that Wilder would be better for the inherent Manifesting, with the additions to learnable powers being the core of the Natural Attack pick list from Psychic Warrior. Would actually not take all that much in the way of editing, either...

As a result of shifting away from pure Psionics, I've considered having a somewhat more conventional racial substitution level setup for Spirit Shaman, flipping the anti-spirit abilities and spirit patron abilities over to Spirit-benefiting abilities and some Psicrystal fluff. Switching Chastise Spirits to a multi-target heal is a bit of a start, though I'm not sure how to word it to replace the Weaken Spirit "upgrade" to the effect. Shifting the Protection From/Circle Against Spirits features to something beneficial would be a bit hard, but doable. Getting Psionic or crystaline flavor in to justify being for Crysmal specifically is really the hardest part. Maybe have part of the healing be temp HP from making a "shell" of hard crystal, then have the Weaken Spirit replacement function give Natural Armor and/or Constitution bonuses? Then outright replacing the Protection From/Circle Against Spirits ability with something that allows for mixed Psionic/Divine use would shore up having it be about Crysmals by having it be both Earth associated and Psionics associated.

I might also rework the Psychic Warrior substitution levels to also be closer to the normal form, with replacements being delaying and slowing progressions at low levels to have it be both consistent with the low-level replacements of most of the racial sorts and with having ongoing costs for ongoing benefits. Of course, reworking the wording to apply stacking properly to the offset Wilder casting would be rather annoying, but workable.

...Any suggestions for a third class to give a racial AFC that is neither Psionic Manifesting or Divine casting? I'm honestly tempted to go with Warlock, as it has item crafting built in, but the amount of stuff to overhaul would get pretty crazy. Artificer is victim of needing it to be Psionic Artificer, which needs a bundle of work put into making it fully functional because Psionic items have a tendency to be more restricted than magic items, and the rules for Psionic Constructs are utterly abysmal. Although the chance to make Psionic equivalents to Homunculi would be nice.

There's a trait in the traits/feat thread to start small, and even a flaw to go another size smaller from start.
...there was actually a bit of an argument about how those two stacked that never got resolved, wasn't there? And the trait(or flaw, not quite sure which) has the issue of automatically setting size to Small, no matter the starting size. Which is kinda problematic/silly when you can jump four size categories in one level.

Quote
Eerr, just re-use the same stat-block?
The problem is more about the fact that they need to make a statblock for the Colossal broodmother and another for the spawned minions, as well as track the HP of all those Swarms. Huge amount of bookkeeping for a single monster.

Quote
Tell that to any summoner/necromancer/druid.

The core 3.5 succubus also has the infamous 30% chance to summon a much stronger demon, meaning either she wasted a turn or suddenly the battle becomes much harder out of nowhere.

Balor can just summon another Balor.
...once more, I realize that how fundamentally broken 3.5 is is beyond what I could ever expect. I should have learned my lesson from witnessing the attempts to get Pun Pun to have a stat so high, he'd unarguably win against something with an infinite amount of that stat(Aleph 1, as opposed to the standard Aleph 0 infinity).
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: oslecamo on November 19, 2017, 08:14:09 PM
There's a trait in the traits/feat thread to start small, and even a flaw to go another size smaller from start.
...there was actually a bit of an argument about how those two stacked that never got resolved, wasn't there? And the trait(or flaw, not quite sure which) has the issue of automatically setting size to Small, no matter the starting size. Which is kinda problematic/silly when you can jump four size categories in one level.
I don't remember any such argument, neither any confusion on how they would combine.

Because the trait that makes you small can only be taken if you're medium-sized to begin with, and the flaw reduces one size. You can combine both for a medium sized to start tiny, but somebody that starts small can't take the trait to begin with, only the flaw.



Quote
Eerr, just re-use the same stat-block?
The problem is more about the fact that they need to make a statblock for the Colossal broodmother and another for the spawned minions, as well as track the HP of all those Swarms. Huge amount of bookkeeping for a single monster.
Again, not any worst than your typical necromancer/summoner/druid battle. Heck probably still easier since the monstrous spider doesn't have spell lists/slots to worry about.

And then there's people who just seem to love to write statblocks. I've got a couple players in this forum both taking leadership for a veritable army of carefully built PC minions and I even got the request to make a subforum just for monster classes builds (although not seeing much use nowadays).
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Versatility_Nut on November 19, 2017, 11:29:42 PM
I don't remember any such argument, neither any confusion on how they would combine.
Okay, thinking back it was either Savage stacking with Vow of Poverty or Hoard shenanigans that I was remembering.

Quote
Because the trait that makes you small can only be taken if you're medium-sized to begin with, and the flaw reduces one size. You can combine both for a medium sized to start tiny, but somebody that starts small can't take the trait to begin with, only the flaw.
Okay, I was fuzzy on the details due to skimming. Common problem I have, lately.

Quote
Again, not any worst than your typical necromancer/summoner/druid battle. Heck probably still easier since the monstrous spider doesn't have spell lists/slots to worry about.
...Again, the fundamental brokenness of 3.5 continues to surprise me, because I actually think about dedicated Summoner casters and weep for the bookkeeping.

Quote
And then there's people who just seem to love to write statblocks. I've got a couple players in this forum both taking leadership for a veritable army of carefully built PC minions and I even got the request to make a subforum just for monster classes builds (although not seeing much use nowadays).
...Wait, there's people who actually stat out their full Follower count from Leadership? That's a lot of build detail.

As for the subforum... I'll see about doing something with a build that tries to represent a Drider or something without using the actual monster class. Maybe a Braineater Dragon... Which would work well as a "special hybrid" PRC for Dragons that got access to Mind Flayer multiclass. Or a Larval Flayer that got ahold of a Dragon... Less brainstorming, more homebrewing, dammit!
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on November 19, 2017, 11:45:35 PM
Quote
...Again, the fundamental brokenness of 3.5 continues to surprise me, because I actually think about dedicated Summoner casters and weep for the bookkeeping.

That's what you call broken? Needing multiple sheets of paper? :p
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: ketaro on November 20, 2017, 12:03:10 AM
Just keeping track of party loot must be a nightmare too then, huh?  :-\
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Nanshork on November 20, 2017, 12:24:38 AM
This reminds me of the time I had an epic level character with a character sheet for him, a character sheet for his awakened Krenshar mount, and a character sheet for his intelligent weapon.

I had more fun statting everything up than I did playing him so I handed him off to someone else in the group and made a new character.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Threadnaught on November 20, 2017, 04:40:53 PM
Just keeping track of party loot must be a nightmare too then, huh?  :-\

I legit saw a single sheet being used for equipped items, assorted inventory items in the backpack, currency and art objects. It offends me to this day how it was a single sheet, performing the job of at least four sheets.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on November 21, 2017, 02:32:07 PM
What's wrong with that? :p
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Threadnaught on December 05, 2017, 09:53:27 AM
Not enough book keeping.  :plotting
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Nanshork on December 09, 2017, 08:59:48 PM
What happens if I take levels in two monster classes that gain Natural Armor based off of different stats?
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: TC X0 Lt 0X on December 09, 2017, 09:47:09 PM
Well Natural Armor bonuses don't stack last I checked, so you would wake the highest bonus of the two. Plenty of monster classes say they gain a +1 increase in Natural armor instead if the creature already has higher Nat AC from a different source.
I guess if one of the Natural Amors become higher then the other (thru ability damage or similar) they would switch places.

I would assume.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: oslecamo on December 09, 2017, 11:08:59 PM
Correct, count only highest unless they say something specific about increasing another.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Nanshork on December 10, 2017, 01:37:23 AM
Thrym Hound (http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=16991.msg299498) should be moved into the Prestige Classes section.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Archon on December 19, 2017, 08:30:42 PM
Could you please move the elementals to their own spoiler in the index, in the manner of the draconians or something like that. It would make them easier to find, and there are a few of them now (and there will be more if someone makes the para/quasi elementals into classes as well).
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: oslecamo on December 19, 2017, 10:30:09 PM
Thrym Hound (http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=16991.msg299498) should be moved into the Prestige Classes section.

Done.

Could you please move the elementals to their own spoiler in the index, in the manner of the draconians or something like that. It would make them easier to find, and there are a few of them now (and there will be more if someone makes the para/quasi elementals into classes as well).
No. And let's leave it at that.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: phaedrusxy on January 04, 2018, 03:33:25 PM
Just saw this and wondering... is it you?
https://kotaku.com/d-d-player-mods-hundreds-of-monsters-into-playable-char-1821776481/amp
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: TC X0 Lt 0X on January 04, 2018, 03:48:13 PM
Eww a Kotaku article.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: ketaro on January 04, 2018, 07:27:26 PM
Just saw this and wondering... is it you?
https://kotaku.com/d-d-player-mods-hundreds-of-monsters-into-playable-char-1821776481/amp

Clicked ng the link in the link leads to it saying it's for 5th edition
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: phaedrusxy on January 04, 2018, 11:02:22 PM
Just saw this and wondering... is it you?
https://kotaku.com/d-d-player-mods-hundreds-of-monsters-into-playable-char-1821776481/amp

Clicked ng the link in the link leads to it saying it's for 5th edition
Oh.... whoops. :P
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Yasahiro on March 06, 2018, 08:50:35 AM
Where's Entropic creature template you guys?
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: TC X0 Lt 0X on March 06, 2018, 08:04:09 PM
I did want to do one since I did the Vivacious Creature, but I have not had much free time for vanity projects for the past year =P
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Yasahiro on March 06, 2018, 11:55:20 PM
I did want to do one since I did the Vivacious Creature, but I have not had much free time for vanity projects for the past year =P

How much encouragement and motivation I can provide you to attempt that now :p
Especially since, even with regular SRD templates you can stack Entropic and then put Vivacious ON that, so a feat or some extra PRC, like how Vivisector has the Scizor one, that requires both of em. Just ideas.

At the very least the Entropic template would be easier, only two levels
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: TC X0 Lt 0X on March 07, 2018, 12:00:00 AM
Eh I might be done with the work I have been doing at the end of the month.

I do want to get back into brewing some monster classes though, we will see.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: rferries on March 29, 2018, 12:05:16 AM
Apologies for the tangent, but may I ask why you (Oslecamo) were banned from the GITP forum? I ran across your (groundbreaking IMHO) stuff there but as far as I can tell your last posts weren't acrimonious at all. Absolutely no worries if you'd rather not discuss it, I just had an academic curiosity.

I made a post there but nobody seems to know why (though a couple other people have PM'd me to say they're interested too, if you're comfortable with me reporting back).
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: oslecamo on March 29, 2018, 12:58:47 AM
(groundbreaking IMHO)
Thank you! :)

I made a post there but nobody seems to know why (though a couple other people have PM'd me to say they're interested too, if you're comfortable with me reporting back).
It's no surprise nobody stepped forward to comment since they would risk being banned themselves.

Still I made my peace with that long ago and the gitp mods can't exactly make me more banned, so I can do it.

I can't say for sure the "why" since the mods didn't exactly present a final report. The only bit where they were clear was some infractions for stuff like calling people "son" and using the term "rawtard" during a discussion. Seems like I reached the three infractions limit and that was worth a ban.

Also I should point out several other prolific posters got the axe just before and after I was banned like Cubey and the Vorpal Tribble, plus I believe there had been a bunch of new mods assigned just before the ban wave started, so I guess they were quite a more draconian bunch and/or had personal grudges to settle. Nowadays when I check the gitp forums (great to see people keep using my homebrew over there) I see plenty of stuff that would've been basically an auto-infraction back in my day.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: rferries on March 29, 2018, 02:40:55 AM
(groundbreaking IMHO)
Thank you! :)

I made a post there but nobody seems to know why (though a couple other people have PM'd me to say they're interested too, if you're comfortable with me reporting back).
It's no surprise nobody stepped forward to comment since they would risk being banned themselves.

Still I made my peace with that long ago and the gitp mods can't exactly make me more banned, so I can do it.

I can't say for sure the "why" since the mods didn't exactly present a final report. The only bit where they were clear was some infractions for stuff like calling people "son" and using the term "rawtard" during a discussion. Seems like I reached the three infractions limit and that was worth a ban.

Also I should point out several other prolific posters got the axe just before and after I was banned like Cubey and the Vorpal Tribble, plus I believe there had been a bunch of new mods assigned just before the ban wave started, so I guess they were quite a more draconian bunch and/or had personal grudges to settle. Nowadays when I check the gitp forums (great to see people keep using my homebrew over there) I see plenty of stuff that would've been basically an auto-infraction back in my day.

A great pity, but it seems like you've made a great sub-forum here. Thanks for the reply! :)
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on September 27, 2018, 07:41:45 AM
Quote
If you're brought to life after your essence was harvested, you must consume treasure equal to the average treasure for your level (or WBL if you're a PC or named NPC that isn't somebody's cohort/minion) to regain your Savage bonus, until then you're too weakened to fully unleash your abilities.

Looking at this (and the Pilot equivalent) isn't it a bit steep? Until you manage to get cumulative wealth equal to your entire playtime again, you get nothing as there's no incrementality. Since you can't hoard money, there's no way to prepare for this. So you'd need to try and get a huge amount of WBL whilst having the equivalent of no items or bonuses.

Maybe you should regain abilities equal to the amount of treasure you've already consumed? It's more bookkeeping on the player (and being killed and harvested and then resurrected is already a bit unlikely) but it's less "well, you're horribly weak and need to obtain a massive lump sum of gold".
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: oslecamo on September 28, 2018, 02:03:06 AM
Good idea, added gradual recovery option for Savage and Child Soldier. (http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=17870.msg322104#msg322104)
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: ketaro on September 28, 2018, 02:50:28 AM
But that still leaves the question of how do you get any money for these recovery options when you are explicitly not allowed to have money?
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: oslecamo on September 28, 2018, 03:02:47 AM
The traits don't stop you from having money, you just need to spend your fair share on them. So basically either you get a donation, or you steal borrow extra from somebody else.

Yeah it's not gonna be easy, but if a normal character got killed, looted and then ressurected naked, recovering won't be any easier for them either.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: ketaro on September 28, 2018, 03:38:00 AM
Hmm, I forgot this isn't actually much of a concern because the dm looting killed PCs doesn't actually happen  :lmao

If it has, it was definitely a party wipe and nobody is left to drag your corpses back for a res anyways.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Sweetiebot on December 22, 2018, 02:51:57 PM
Quote from: oslecamo
God SkinGod DomainGod MagicGod Senses-Double the range of your senses (including darkvisiona and low-light vision if you have them). If you have 20 or more HD, they extend out to a radius of one mile per Divine Rank. This doesn't allow you to see trough solid objects.

I feel like this is not how things are supposed to be. There's also something similar in the first Salient Abilities thing, and possibly in the other one.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: oslecamo on December 23, 2018, 12:01:57 AM
If you quote the post the original text should still there, just that the forum code suddenly doesn't seem to recognize certain special characters, showing them as  "�" and "deletes" stuff between them. Here's hoping the mods will fix it otherwise I'll need to do some deep cleaning up when I have the time (don't have it now).
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: SorO_Lost on December 23, 2018, 02:02:00 PM
I feel like this is not how things are supposed to be. There's also something similar in the first Salient Abilities thing, and possibly in the other one.
I'm not sure about the deletion but Oslecamo pretty much nailed it on the head.

Everything is stored as bytes and has to be interpreted. Like for a Microsoft Windows example, Notepad defaults to ASCII character encoding instead of Unicode so when you try to save something in notepad using characters recognized as non-ASCII it tells you to pick a different encoding or replace the letters. SMF's web pages use UTF-8 for display, but the database it's self can use a different encoding set just as the user may submit a different encoding set too. Updates and changes to the interpreters can naturally mess with this, like maybe the host moving the site's data to a different server, or running certain forum maintenance commands, or w/e is the recent string of events.

Quote from: For Example
Mortals and other deities of lower rank can resist the aura�s effects with successful Will saves; the DC is 10 +1/2 HD +Charisma modifier. Deities are immune to the auras of deities of equal or lower Divine rank. Any being who makes a successful saving throw  against a deity�s aura power becomes immune to that deity�s aura power for one day.
Osl didn't use the U+0027 apostrophe. Due to localization he probably used a character that looks like it and gets converted into an error when everything is said and done.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Nanshork on December 24, 2018, 01:00:36 AM
This will probably be looked into no earlier than Thursday.
Title: Animated Objects + Intelligent Item??
Post by: Mr. Meatball on January 21, 2019, 01:37:26 PM
I was looking into the Animated Object monster class/race and the Intelligent Item class, and both of them have things I like, like how levels of Intelligent Item can be levels of sorcerer or initiator levels, but I like the idea of being able to hop around like the characters from beauty and the beast, or the hat from Legend of Zelda: Minish Cap. I also like the Animated Object blind or grappling abilities. I just wish there was a way to mix the two! Any ideas?   :???
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: ketaro on January 21, 2019, 05:21:23 PM
The feats thread is has here has two feats, monster blooded and monster hybrid, that when both taken let you take levels in two different racial classes here.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: oslecamo on January 21, 2019, 07:29:28 PM
What Ketaro said, with the monster feats you could pick the Animated Object base race then take levels in Intelligent Item.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: ketaro on February 28, 2019, 05:50:26 AM
Should Extra Option's list of applicable classes be expanded yet?

Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: oslecamo on February 28, 2019, 06:03:55 AM
Good point, added the´Chaos Lady and Princess plus Miniature Creature. If anybody remembers another monster class that should be added to that feat do let me know.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: oslecamo on March 03, 2019, 12:07:00 AM
Added Monster Heritage (http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=526.msg2541#msg2541) trait.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: oslecamo on March 03, 2019, 10:56:31 PM
Added a new entry in the FAQ preventing stacking the same ability score twice to AC/saves/attacks/skills unless otherwise noted in the entry.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on March 03, 2019, 11:06:20 PM
Do I get to pick which type of AC bonus it is in the case that they're being added separately? e.g., if I had charisma to AC from some feature or other and became a ghost with 10HD, could I then have it as a deflection bonus?
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: oslecamo on March 04, 2019, 12:59:31 AM
Yes, added to the FAQ entry as well.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: TC X0 Lt 0X on March 20, 2019, 07:06:29 PM
The link to Prime32s 'More Monster Feats' under Extra Material in the Index got missed up from your edit today Osle.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Skyrock on March 20, 2019, 07:32:21 PM
The link to Prime32s 'More Monster Feats' under Extra Material in the Index got missed up from your edit today Osle.
Have retrieved the link from Google cache: http://www.minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=327.0
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: oslecamo on March 20, 2019, 09:04:45 PM
Thanks, fixed it.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Rekmond on April 23, 2019, 02:55:23 AM
Small mistake on the index links.

Under templates, Elder Eidolon opens the Evolved Undead, and Evolved Undead is a dead link.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: oslecamo on April 23, 2019, 09:31:23 AM
Fixed, thanks.  :)
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Sweetiebot on April 30, 2019, 06:46:01 AM
Can a collection of Intelligent Items have different alignments?

Also, would it be possible for each item to have a different dedicated purpose?
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Doxkid on May 05, 2019, 10:04:09 AM
GREEN HAG-
So for example a green hag 2 who takes a level of sorcerer would count as having 3 levels of sorcerer(2+1) and gain the spell slots and spell known that a sorcerer gains when leveling from level 2 to 3, but not the spell slots and spell known that a sorcerer gets from level 1 to 2, He would get the familiar ability, but half-dragon levels wouldn't count for it.
ANNIS HAG-
The hag takes  penalties to her physical statistics for aging, instead actually gaining +1 Strength, Dexterity and Constitution with each increase in age category, to a maximum of +1 per  Annis Hag level.  She ages as a human for the purpose of age categories, starting at adulthood (15+1d4 years old) and aging up past venerable age, but she will never die of old age (although she can always get uglier).
Two mistakes I've noticed. Aren't Hags usually lady-monsters?
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: oslecamo on May 22, 2019, 04:57:56 AM
Ups, seem to have missed this one. :blush

Green hag male pronoun fixed, but the Annis Hag seems to be all female.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: dman on August 24, 2019, 11:29:47 PM
Gestalt:
You made it clear that a monster can't get the same attribute to AC twice.  Can it get two different ability scores to a stat?  If a gestalt monster gets CHA mod to natural armor and CON mod to natural armor does it get both?  If you get the similar "ability score to X" abilities could it give a small bump like when you repeat SR or DR? 

Natural attacks:
If I have a deepspawn/grell crossbreed you have to choose either 3 or 10 tentacle attacks and 3 or 1 bites respectively.  Is that right?

Can I assume you still get the class abilities of both monsters for those type of natural attacks?  Ex. Grell tentacles get improved grab, Deepspawn tentacles flank with bite attacks on same creature.

I can understand trying to avoid too many natural attacks (though you could just gestalt with a claw/slam monster and still get your oodles of attacks), but losing your class features would stink.


Monster Lord:
Could it work for miniature creatures to get mini bonuses without the minuses for being mini?
How does the powerful build aspect of monster lord interact with trample, space, and reach?
Do you calculate reach distance from your medium space or can you still reach as far as if you were your Colossal size?
Can you stomp a city block while still appearing to be medium size?

 
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: TC X0 Lt 0X on August 25, 2019, 03:11:23 AM
Gestalt:
You made it clear that a monster can't get the same attribute to AC twice.  Can it get two different ability scores to a stat?  If a gestalt monster gets CHA mod to natural armor and CON mod to natural armor does it get both?  If you get the similar "ability score to X" abilities could it give a small bump like when you repeat SR or DR? 


Well Natural Armor bonuses generally don't stack, but a lot of the content here have clauses stating if you have a higher bonus from a different source, you add a +1 instead.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: dman on August 26, 2019, 11:13:11 PM
Oh yeah, Thanks TC.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: oslecamo on August 28, 2019, 02:08:46 AM
Gestalt:
You made it clear that a monster can't get the same attribute to AC twice.  Can it get two different ability scores to a stat?  If a gestalt monster gets CHA mod to natural armor and CON mod to natural armor does it get both?  If you get the similar "ability score to X" abilities could it give a small bump like when you repeat SR or DR? 
Unless otherwise noted, if you would gain natural armor based in two different abilitiy scores, you gain both.

I could add a +1 for the same ability score taken multiple times, but I don't really want to promote again people cherry-picking monster classes just to try to stack on the same ability score as high as possible.

Natural attacks:
If I have a deepspawn/grell crossbreed you have to choose either 3 or 10 tentacle attacks and 3 or 1 bites respectively.  Is that right?
Yes.

Can I assume you still get the class abilities of both monsters for those type of natural attacks?  Ex. Grell tentacles get improved grab, Deepspawn tentacles flank with bite attacks on same creature.

Technically yes.

Monster Lord:
Could it work for miniature creatures to get mini bonuses without the minuses for being mini?
How does the powerful build aspect of monster lord interact with trample, space, and reach?
Do you calculate reach distance from your medium space or can you still reach as far as if you were your Colossal size?
Can you stomp a city block while still appearing to be medium size?
-Yes.
-Only fill medium space and medium reach, but can still trample and reach as original size.
-From your medium space.
-Yes, shockwaves.

Well Natural Armor bonuses generally don't stack, but a lot of the content here have clauses stating if you have a higher bonus from a different source, you add a +1 instead.

It should be noted that said content are template/prcs that are expected to be added on top of other monster classes.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on November 13, 2019, 08:34:50 PM
Monster Lord:
Could it work for miniature creatures to get mini bonuses without the minuses for being mini?
How does the powerful build aspect of monster lord interact with trample, space, and reach?
Do you calculate reach distance from your medium space or can you still reach as far as if you were your Colossal size?
Can you stomp a city block while still appearing to be medium size?
-Yes.
-Only fill medium space, but can still trample and reach as original size.
-From your medium space.
-Yes, shockwaves.

Hang on, haven't looked in here for a while. That seems inconsistent both with how Powerful Build works, Prime's likely intention when writing Monster Lord, and all the time spent in Phantasy Star--for almost all of it Amaterasu was clearly a medium sized creature with colossal damage and grapple abilities, but without the accompanying reach. And it did come up on maybe one or two occasions where I went for the larger size to have the appropriate reach despite the to-hit/AC penalties.

Prime's exact wording was "you get the Powerful Build trait, except you count as your original form's size rather than one size larger", and Powerful Build itself (quoting the Goliath Statblock) says "However, his space and reach remain those of a creature of his actual size."

The feat's already great as it is, without having the reach advantages--especially with reach as original size then having the question of whether you start counting from your own square or where your full size would be.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: oslecamo on November 23, 2019, 09:31:10 AM
My bad, was misremembering things, corrected previous post. Thanks Raineh. :blush
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Doxkid on June 21, 2020, 03:36:18 PM
(click to show/hide)
I also think once an ability reaches more than 10/day it should probably be At-Will or Per Encounter, which is typically what the original monster has at that same CR/HD. Quite a few end up capable of using their basic ability a good 20 or 30 or 40 times per day (looking at you Mindflayer and Concordant Killer), which is functionally At-Will when it isn't put in an endurance test.

Samples of feats that'd fix this:

Mystical Wellspring [Monstrous]
"By force of will."
Prerequisites: *Levels in a monster class.
*A minimum of 6 Hit Dice

Benefit: Spell-Like Ability and Supernatural Ability granted by Monster classes with a limited number of uses Per Day may instead be used half as many times Per Hour (rounding down).

The choice of whether a specific ability affected by this feat is Per Day or Per Hour can be changed in the same way that a Sorcerer readies their spells for the day, typically requiring 8 hours of Rest followed by at least 15 minutes of concentrating on the abilities in question.

Mystical Reservoir [Monstrous]
"My potential is limitless!"
Prerequisites: *Levels in a monster class.
*A minimum of 12 Hit Dice
Benefit: Any Spell-Like Ability or Supernatural Ability granted by a Monster classes with 6 or more uses Per Encounter or Per Hour or Per Minute may instead be used At-Will.


Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: TC X0 Lt 0X on June 22, 2020, 03:41:07 PM
Plenty of monsters have the option to choose from open lists of spells for SLAs. Something like this opens up abuses in such cases. Might be a good idea to put in a clause preventing this being used with such options.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Doxkid on June 22, 2020, 04:26:42 PM
Plenty of monsters have the option to choose from open lists of spells for SLAs. Something like this opens up abuses in such cases. Might be a good idea to put in a clause preventing this being used with such options.
Got any examples? The second feat requires at least 12 uses per day as your base number, and I can't think of any monster class with an SLA that can be used that many times but is still problematic.

At any rate, give it a few modifications and toss it back toward me. Sooner or later we'll figure out a version that achieves the target effect and is more mechanically balanced.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: RegalKain on July 31, 2021, 12:28:27 AM
Is there a reason there isn't a half-elemental template? I've tried searching around a bit, and can't seem to find one, has no one gotten around to it yet? Is it not needed? What's the deal? No rush, if it hasn't been created I'll work on it, just curious.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Versatility_Nut on September 22, 2021, 02:53:53 PM
Is there a reason there isn't a half-elemental template? I've tried searching around a bit, and can't seem to find one, has no one gotten around to it yet? Is it not needed? What's the deal? No rush, if it hasn't been created I'll work on it, just curious.
There isn't one, but I do wonder which you're referring to, as there's the "like X creature but actually made of Y element" templates, while I cannot recall their names for the life of me, which would be understandable as a separate one given their replacement functions, but the literal hybrids are much less understandable due to the various direct multiclassing options.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Versatility_Nut on December 14, 2021, 05:18:05 PM
Dumping a few that caught my eye perusing the GiantITP LA reassignment thread for future reference, may actually scratch some out later:

Wickerman: (Fiend Folio page 188)
It's a CR 11 Huge Grappler Golem-in-all-but-name (Hardness, Spell Resistance, big strong-but-lol-mentals Construct), but can catch on fire! While being immune to Fire damage otherwise, and healed by Entangle. Also has a Swallow Whole-alike in the form of a cage; if on fire, does damage to the things inside, if not, there's no damage to it.

Implementation as a monster class can have interesting notes with the manipulation of the being-on-fire property, like having a slightly longer reach of purely Fire damage, a Breath attack compromising the Encage damage, or assorted Desert Wind stuff. Can also make use of its purpose as a sacrificial totem for exotic effects tied to burning things in the cage.

Boneyard: (Libre Mortis page 89)
It's a CR 14 Huge skeletal Undead focused on Grappling. With Fast Healing, a Fort save vs. Str, Con, and Dexterity on Bites, high spell resistance, the ability to summon Skeleton minions, a Grapple check save-or-die, and rearranging its layout. Though that last one sadly lacks an express ability, it just gets loads of Climb, Jump, Hide, and Move Silently.

The rearrangement, as noted, lacks an express ability, being the fluff behind the summon and presumably the skill list. However, it allows for having a central mechanic for both the minions and the progression as a pile of numbers, making it "focus" on one method of fighting at a time, resulting in a back-and-forth of counterplay without a settled "do X to beat Y".

Skulking Cyst: (Libre Mortis page 120)
CR 4 Small Undead product of the Mother Cyst-granted of spells, they have a lot of design space available as a monster class. The "canonical" version goes +8 Dexterity with usual stealth-type skills, aided by 3/day Darkness SLA, with a hit with one of its two basically-tentacles allowing an automatic Attach that deals 1d4 Con damage per round. At 7, it pops its 1/day Necrotic Cyst SLA and runs.

What I'd look for it being rendered as is actually a parasite, where Attach turns to implanting itself for Necrotic Cyst shenanigans. Add Vile/Constitution damage outside the Necrotic spells and Attach for something to do, streamline the darkness effect, then a Mother Cyst PRC for wider use of the Cysts implanted and some method of control. Progress with Dex/Cha, flipped prominence for the PRC.

Blood Elemental/Blood Mother (Elemental here (http://archive.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/sb/sb20030208a), Mother here (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mm/20030314a))
CR 6 and 18 respectively, they're misidentified Outsiders with Grapple-to-suffocate, escapees take Wisdom damage. They're also immune to Mind-Affecting, Critical Hits, Stuns, and Tongues due to being "alien". Also 1/day Insanity. The Blood Mother picks up 13th level Cleric casting, SR 20, (Sp) summoning, Frightful Presence, and the allowance to speak Common plus Alter Self.

My thinking is extending the Wisdom damage with more spread out Confusion access than just the Insanity SLA. Strength/Charisma for abilities on the Elemental, then have the Mother take 2nd-level Divine spells, the Alter Self feat we have around here somewhere, and cross-class size Sense Motive and Intimidate, being 9 levels long for "catchup" casting, Fear effects, and SR.

Black Cyst (archive-of-archive here (https://web.archive.org/web/20090619191816/http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/drfe/20080318a))
CR 18 Large Outsider with save-every-round-or-suck aura, Cha to AC and saves, DR 15 and Regeneration/Lawful and Silver, vulnerable to Sonic, minor Resistance to the four "main" energy types, SR 28, 100 ft. (Perfect) Fly, and it gets a 1/day or 50 damage taken recharge CL 15 Harm, alongside spitting out a random Elder Elemental when below 200 health. Can advance to Huge with +12 RHD (CR ~24), caps at +33 RHD (CR ~30). Finally, at-will Confusion and Ethereal Jaunt, as well as 1/day Insanity, Power Word Stun, and Waves of Exhaustion.

Obviously, the gimmick to go with here is spewing Elemental effects in response to damage with Negative Energy recharged by damage taken, being maddening all the while with Insight penalties and Confusion, with a small side of somehow doing this unnoticed. Constitution and Charisma bonuses, possible Strength tertiary given the room. Sometimes spit an Elemental, sometimes a reactive damage Cone, perhaps choose the element or the effect, but not both. Overall effect is likely one of the few ways to do an MMO-like tank.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Storyteller_Arc on January 18, 2022, 07:11:16 AM
I have a question.

How exactly do I go about submitting my own creation to this sub-forum? I have an idea that I would absolutely love to see played out, but I am unsure if it would be suitable to do so.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Versatility_Nut on January 18, 2022, 08:56:13 PM
I have a question.

How exactly do I go about submitting my own creation to this sub-forum? I have an idea that I would absolutely love to see played out, but I am unsure if it would be suitable to do so.
Pretty sure it's just "New Topic" button, to the right of the pages. Least, that's how it was for me...
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Storyteller_Arc on January 19, 2022, 06:27:38 AM
Pretty sure it's just "New Topic" button, to the right of the pages. Least, that's how it was for me...

I was not talking about the mechanics of doing so. I know how to click the New Topic Button.

I was asking if it was just acceptable for me to randomly make a monster here, or if there's someone I needed to ask permission for before.

Plus remain from making snarky, completely useless replies.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Versatility_Nut on January 19, 2022, 09:16:43 PM
Pretty sure it's just "New Topic" button, to the right of the pages. Least, that's how it was for me...

I was not talking about the mechanics of doing so. I know how to click the New Topic Button.

I was asking if it was just acceptable for me to randomly make a monster here, or if there's someone I needed to ask permission for before.

Plus remain from making snarky, completely useless replies.
...does "just the new "New Topic" button" really not imply that there's nothing more to it? Because it was just the "New Topic" button, no permission, no previous talk, just wrote it up and posted the thread.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: ketaro on January 21, 2022, 08:34:51 AM
Anybody can submit to here. Oslecamo has a guideline on his concept for creating monster classes that can be generally followed if it helps flesh out the class. Oslecamo himself has been inactive since the pandemic began and seems likely to not be returning for god knows what reason.

Regardless, there's enough of us still here familiar with his system here to provide critique and feedback on submissions.