Author Topic: Fun Finds: 5e Edition  (Read 144259 times)

Offline Wilb

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Re: Fun Finds: 5e Edition
« Reply #240 on: December 03, 2015, 09:06:53 AM »
SorO was referring to Plane shift, which can indeed banish creatures to a plane of the caster's choice and is a 7th level spell...
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Offline TenaciousJ

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Re: Fun Finds: 5e Edition
« Reply #241 on: December 03, 2015, 09:58:37 AM »
I don't want to mass-quote just for these quick little replies.

Planeshift has "a metal rod worth at least 250 gp, attuned to a particular plane of existence" as a material component.  Some DMs may make that difficult to come by, and it cannot be ignored due to the gold cost.

I seem to remember a chart somewhere of average statistics per CR.  I will edit it in if I find it again.  Going by the DMG, 22.5 HP on average will put a single CR 1/8 creature to sleep if the guidelines for creating monsters by CR lines up with averages of the Monster Manual.  Fireball is not a spell used for single target damage, IMO.  It's a mook killer unless multiple party members are all going to use AOEs, and then the cumulative damage might actually add up and take out more than just cannon fodder before they can act.  Playing a god caster still seems to pay off more than blasting since most control spells will grant advantage to everyone else in the party (and sometimes auto criticals).  Sleep DOES however work on current HP, not max, so mid-fight it might actually take a turn away from something threatening and offering up a free critical to the party's rogue or paladin.
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Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: Fun Finds: 5e Edition
« Reply #242 on: December 03, 2015, 12:35:41 PM »
Playing a god caster still seems to pay off more than blasting since most control spells will grant advantage to everyone else in the party (and sometimes auto criticals).
You know, I almost wonder if the Bard isn't the king of God play now.

I mean, a Bard can snag Sleep (:rolleyes), Contagion, Planesshift, and still have three any-spells left open and they already have stuff like Polymorph, healing, Raise Dead, and several puzzle solving spells. Inspiration is a very nice ability after the 5th level when you can blow five dice every Encounter too, Lore Bards can even impose penalties with it too.

You just don't get the free stuff like a focused Wizard does, totally dependent on Spell Slots, skill mastery, and Inspire. Pretty much, God in 3.5.

Offline TenaciousJ

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Re: Fun Finds: 5e Edition
« Reply #243 on: December 03, 2015, 01:31:10 PM »
Lore Bard would be in 5e's highest tier for sure, but from my experience so far Abjurer and Diviner go up there too in the same role.  Enchanter and Arcane Cleric might belong too, but I'm waiting to see someone play either one first.
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Offline MrWolfe

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Re: Fun Finds: 5e Edition
« Reply #244 on: December 03, 2015, 02:35:04 PM »
SorO was referring to Plane shift, which can indeed banish creatures to a plane of the caster's choice and is a 7th level spell...

Yeah, missed the paragraph at the end of Plane Shift that says you can use it on unwilling targets. However it does say that it banishes them to a random plane--not one of your choosing. Depending on the target and the plane they end up on, they might be able to pop right back on their turn.

@Tenacious:

IIRC, there were a couple links to averaged out monster stats by CR way upthread. I took a look but the formatting was shit-terrible. Might give parsing it another try.

Fireball may not be a single target spell, (neither is sleep for that matter) but it's got the highest damage of any 3rd level spell--which is why I used it for my initial comparison. Like I said, Sleep affects a higher HP total than most damaging spells when cast with the same level slot--regardless of whether they're single-target or area spells. As for other control spells, most of those allow a save or require an attack roll. Sleep is one of the few that requires neither. If you're the only target in the radius and you're not immune, your HP is the only thing that can save you.

Since Sleep doesn't actually deal damage, there is the problem that you can't "stack" it's effects across multiple castings. This makes Sleep better as a follow-up spell rather than an opener, but the fact remains that on any given round, Sleep is more likely to take a single target out of the fight than most damaging spells. Depending on your save DCs, there's also a pretty good chance that it would be more effective than casting a save-or-die. No risk of your enemy rolling good on a save if they aren't allowed one in the first place.

After a quick check of the MM, it appears that enemies are supposed to have way more HP than even the toughest party members encountering them. While even a 1st level Barbarian caps out at 17 HP, (1d12 +5, assuming he somehow manages to get 20 Con at chargen) a lowly CR 1/8th bandit has 11 HP, (2d8+2) and the CR 2 bandit captain has 65 HP, (10d8+20!) which is just farging ridiculous.

While this does make one-shotting enemies with Sleep pretty unlikely, it also makes attacks that do HP damage even worse. I suppose that does make save-or-dies the better option, assuming you can rely on your target failing their save. Seems like it's better to target saves than AC at any rate, since AC appears easier to buff up to high levels.

Hmm, also makes positioning a bigger concern. Casting Sleep into melee would be a good way to get a party wipe, since even at full health your teammates are likely to have much less HP than the thing they're fighting. :tongue
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Offline Gnomes2169

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Re: Fun Finds: 5e Edition
« Reply #245 on: December 04, 2015, 08:50:02 PM »
Sleep does not scale well enough to actually remain viable after level 2-3, as monster HP scales far faster than the party's CR (basically monsters tend to have the HP of at least two party members at their CR, and much higher at CR 1). Just looking through the monster manual, most monsters of CR2 have 39-45 HP, while at CR3 HP tends towards the 45-60 range. Against mobs it will likely KO a few minions for a few seconds. Against far larger beasts or solo encounters, the monster will typically be immune, just have so much HP that you are likely going to KO one of your party members close to it is damaged at all (since it targets the lowest HP total first), or you have to rely on the power of RNG to save you, which is almost never a good idea.

Shield is just generally a better option for your lower level spell slots... or if you are a bard, healing word and bless are better uses of your level 1 known spells. Sorcerer's do not have a spell known slot to waste on it after level 1 (though it's a decent option AT level 1), and Wizards are usually better off memorizing other spells from their list after level 1 (though they can afford to scribe it into their spell books at level 1). Direct damage spells that actually damage a target's HP, debuffs like hold person that do not immediately disappear on a hit, and even healing or warding your allies from harm mid-combat will generally impact the battle far more directly than sleep
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Offline MrWolfe

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Re: Fun Finds: 5e Edition
« Reply #246 on: December 06, 2015, 02:19:56 PM »
To be fair, it scales better than any damaging spell of it's level. +2d8/slot is kinda nuts. It's just that monster HP apparently laughs at damage spells.

As for relying on the power of RNG to save you--that's why I don't like most other offensive spells. Saves are very swingy, as are attack rolls. With sleep, the only random part is the strength of the effect--and when rolling multiple dice you've got a better chance of an average result than with a single d20. Bell curve and all that.

Any decently coordinated team can avoid the risk of hitting party members by having the melee characters make their attacks and then back off, with the caster readying an action to cast once they're out of range. You might have to worry about your fighters eating an op, but if they'd stayed in for another round chances are they'd be getting attacked anyway...

...although going over the PHB, it looks like there's no longer any limit to the number of opportunity attacks you can make--so if your party has more melee combatants than the monster has attacks a group retreat would be worse than just hanging in for another round.

Also, bear in mind that most spells like hold person offer a save every round to shake it off. It may not disappear on a hit, but it's got a chance to disappear each round regardless of what you do. With how variable saves are, that strikes me as much less reliable than sleep, which puts them out for the duration unless someone specifically takes an action to wake them up.

You're right about shield and other defensive/healing abilities being more useful--but you'll note that in my original post I said sleep was the best offensive 1st level spell to use against a single opponent. Obviously there might be some difference once you step outside that narrow category.

Honestly, I think Shield and Absorb Elements are my favorite first level spells. Even if they only last for 1 round, being able to potentially no-sell an attack as a reaction with a single 1st level slot is awesome--especially if you go the route of building an Abjuration Tank Wizard.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2015, 02:24:47 PM by MrWolfe »
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Offline TenaciousJ

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Re: Fun Finds: 5e Edition
« Reply #247 on: December 06, 2015, 03:24:38 PM »
Opportunity attacks DO have a limit normally.  You need a reaction to take one (unless you have the tunnel fighter style from the new Underdark UA).  Shocking Grasp works the way it does primarily to be an escape tool that does damage.

To add on to this:  Shocking Grasp, Arms of Hadar, and Open Palm Technique all take away reactions.  Besides avoiding opportunity attacks, these can shut off or bait things like Shield, Counterspell, Parry, etc.

As a DM for an Abjuration Wizard, I have had to be very creative so that I can sometimes use spellcasting villains because of Counterspell.  Counterspell has a 60 ft. range and specifies that the counterspeller must see the spell being cast.  If the villain's spell does not have components, either through Subtle Spell or from innate spellcasting, there's nothing to counter.  Similarly, an unseen caster due to invisibility or good stealth checks can avoid Counterspells.
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Offline MrWolfe

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Re: Fun Finds: 5e Edition
« Reply #248 on: December 06, 2015, 11:07:32 PM »
Right, I was in a hurry when I checked my book and missed the part about attacks of opportunity using your reaction.

Good point about shocking grasp/Arms of Hadar. May have to reconsider the usefulness of those. As for counterspell, remember that you have to roll an ability check if the spell is cast with a higher level slot than the one you used to counterspell with. I could be mistaken, but I don't think you get your proficiency bonus on that either, which means on an average roll of 10 you'd only be able to counter up to a 5th level spell. You can cast with a higher level slot to avoid having to roll, but you only have so many of those and without a way to identify spells as they are being cast you have no idea what slot you need.

Hm. Fun Find of the day: Apparently there are no rules for identifying a spell as it is cast in 5th ed? At least, I'm not seeing any rules for it in the magic section of the PHB.

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Offline TenaciousJ

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Re: Fun Finds: 5e Edition
« Reply #249 on: December 07, 2015, 12:25:14 AM »
I don't think you get your proficiency bonus on that either, which means on an average roll of 10 you'd only be able to counter up to a 5th level spell.

Abjurers get proficiency to the roll, Bards get half proficiency to the roll (Jack of All Trades), Lore Bards can also use Peerless Skill on it, and Warlocks after a point automatically cast it at 5th level.    I brought up the point about how to avoid Counterspell for those situations, and for a DM to make an encounter just that much harder without having to make enemies numerically stronger.

If half of proficiency from a level 2 Bard dip for Jack of All Trades counts for the conditions set by an 11th level Rogue's Reliable Talent, an Arcane Trickster/Bard would have a really easy time using Counterspell for higher level spells too.  It's probably worth figuring out if Jack of All Trades works with Reliable Talent for other reasons too...  If I had a twitter, I'd send that question to Jeremy Crawford.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2015, 12:27:54 AM by TenaciousJ »
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Offline MrWolfe

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Re: Fun Finds: 5e Edition
« Reply #250 on: December 07, 2015, 01:41:21 AM »
Ah, Abjurers get the ability to add their proficiency bonus at 10th level. Honestly though, counterspelling is probably one of the worst things a Warlock can spend their slots on. You get too few of them for it to matter much, even if it is guaranteed to function at your highest level. At best your opponent uses his highest level spells first, and has to rely on peppering you with slightly lower level slots once you run out. At worst you spend all your slots stopping cantrips, then get hammered when they roll out the big guns. :p
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Offline TenaciousJ

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Re: Fun Finds: 5e Edition
« Reply #251 on: December 07, 2015, 10:58:38 AM »
https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/672870411428696064

Quote from: Jeremy Crawford
For a rogue/fighter or rogue/bard, Reliable Talent does work with Remarkable Athlete and Jack of All Trades.

An 11th level rogue with a 2 level dip into Bard or 7 levels in Champion Fighter will never go below a 17 on initiative, assuming maxed out Dexterity by those levels.  The Bard dip looks better and better for skill-monkeying with that ruling, and there's the Counterspell example above.  What else useful comes out of that combination?
« Last Edit: December 07, 2015, 11:16:55 AM by TenaciousJ »
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Offline awaken_D_M_golem

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Re: Fun Finds: 5e Edition
« Reply #252 on: December 07, 2015, 05:50:35 PM »
I'm wondering about a build tactic.

Push defense to the very front and
handing out lots of disadvantages.
I'm thinking this is quite i.p.proof-y
and cuts down on condition tags.

But then having the War cleric 2
ability as a back pocket trump card.
Something like (with ? on the order):
War Cleric 2 / Paladin 6 / Lore Bard 11 / x1

Anybody feeling this idea, or improvements ?
(or replacements)
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Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: Fun Finds: 5e Edition
« Reply #253 on: September 10, 2016, 04:47:25 PM »
I cast Summon Undead!

Speaking of 5th, the Storm King's Thunder Adventure was released some time ago and I figured I'd share some information about it. There is a Potion of Giant Size (legendary) that when drunk makes you become Huge, Str is set to 25, your current HP is doubled, your Reach is increased by 5th, it affects all your items, and your weapons deal triple their base damage (like a long sword deals 3d8 now). No notation on how long it lasts but any HP left over is kept as Temporary HP which is nice.

Items with multiple effects is also the new standard. Like the Ingot of Skold Rune gives you a +1 bonus to AC and it can be used as a Bonus Action to reduce the damage to an ally to 1 point but you take half of the prevented damage. But I kind of like the Stein Rune, anyone moving within 10ft of you need to make a DC12 Str Check to continue moving forward, negates Petrify, 1/rest Meld Into Stone, and like the rest you can destroy it to add a bonus to another item. I guess theoretically you can gather all of the runes and burn them all to create some very powerful gear like a DDO ingredient grind.

Also there is a floating Artifact throne that, and I shit you not on any of this, can fly through stone walls and summon ghostly blue dragon appendages to beat the crap out of your opponents. It has 9 charges and by expending three of them it produces a Ancient Blue Dragon's Bite & 2 claws for one minute. Imagine burning all your charges for an Asura-Dragon that makes nine extra attacks during your turn.

Buried on Page 35 is Pixie Dust which has a 70% chance of granting someone Fly 60ft for 10 minutes. 10% chance of puts you to sleep, confuses you, or renders you invisible for one hour. get out your butterfly nets and capture Tinkerbell for all kinds of abuse.

Like any MMO the adventure has a bunch of side quests you can undertake now offer by certain NPCs. You "unlock" the ability to pick and choose which ones to start after reaching the 5th level (aka chapter 2). There is also a list of random Events Encounters, they are scripted much closer to DDO/Skyrim which is honestly a step up from the typical roll for X monster. And there is even per-programmed NPC dialogue with a 6 charge Oracle with 22 preset answers for what the PCs should be asking about. They even give you the ability to DDO style recall out of a dungeon after completion in the form of a horn that teleports you to the next quest.

Airships return too, OotS current arc probably gives you all the needed information of the setting (probably). The NPC stat blocks are now pretty cut outs with a photo of their head.

No new Class stuff through.

Offline jameswastaken

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Re: Fun Finds: 5e Edition
« Reply #254 on: September 13, 2016, 08:21:08 PM »
Found a pretty sweet combo multi classing with the new ranger re work.

If you take 3 levels in Rogue (assassin) and 6 levels in Ranger (deep stalker) you can do a lot of damage on a surprise round at 9th level.

Hope i'm reading the rules on assassinate properly.



Here is how it goes:
*All of these attacks will have advantage and auto crit (ill double all the dice numbers) due to assassinate.


Bonus Action: Cast hunter's mark on enemy who is surprised +1d6 for each hit against target

Action: Attack
2d8(longbow)+4d6(sneak attack) +2d6(hunter's mark) +4 (assuming greater favored enemy).

Extra Attack (level 5 ranger ability.)
2d8(longbow) 2d6(hunter's mark)  +4 (assuming greater favored enemy).

Additional Attack (level 3 Deep Stalker ability "Underdark Scout".)
2d8(longbow) 2d6(hunter's mark)  +4 (assuming greater favored enemy).

Total: 6d8 + 10d6 + 12

Total without auto crit: 3d8 +5d6 + 12
« Last Edit: September 13, 2016, 11:22:30 PM by jameswastaken »

Offline linklord231

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Re: Fun Finds: 5e Edition
« Reply #255 on: September 13, 2016, 09:22:50 PM »
I don't think Extra Attack from different sources stack. Don't have the books with me to check though.
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Offline jameswastaken

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Re: Fun Finds: 5e Edition
« Reply #256 on: September 13, 2016, 10:10:47 PM »
Thanks for pointing that out, I have mislabel it calling it "Extra Attack". Here is a description of the Deep Stalker ability that gives you the additional attack on page 8 of the pdf.

"Underdark Scout
At 3rd level, you master the art of the ambush.
On your first turn during combat, you gain a +10 bonus to your speed, and if you use the attack action, you can make one additional attack."

http://media.wizards.com/2016/dnd/downloads/UA_RevisedRanger.pdf


You are correct, I just checked the phb and that is a rule (pg 164).

"If you gain the Extra Attack class feature from more than one class, the Features don't add together. You can't make more than two attacks with this feature unless it says you do (as the fighter's version of Extra Attack does). Similarly, the warlock's eldritch invocation Thirsting Blade doesn't give you additional attacks if you also have Extra Attack."


You gain the additional attack (Underdark Scout) and extra attack both from the same class/ranger conclave so i think this rule doesn't apply? I may be wrong.

I have edited my post to make this more clear.

Offline TenaciousJ

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Re: Fun Finds: 5e Edition
« Reply #257 on: September 13, 2016, 11:11:57 PM »
Winning initiative isn't sufficient to make the enemies surprised for Assassinate, just fyi.  It's a less reliable feature RAW than people make it out to be, but for theoretical purposes it's powerful.

If you're theorycrafting, don't even bother with level 6 of Deep Stalker.  Go 3 Assassin, 3 Deep Stalker, 11 Battle Master.  The Deep Stalker's level 3 feature works with Extra Attack, so get the best Extra Attack from fighter with superiority dice that can be included in the critical rolls.  4 attacks with fighter's Extra Attack plus Deep Stalker's Underdark Scout.  Action Surge for 4 more attacks, since Underdark Scout works when you take the Attack action on the first round of combat.
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Offline sambojin

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Re: Fun Finds: 5e Edition
« Reply #258 on: September 17, 2016, 12:00:00 AM »
Just for funsies:

Be a Ranger with the MI feat and choose the Friends cantrip. Level into Beast Conclave. Immediately cast Friends on your new pal, and at every available opportunity. You are theoretically still in control of their actions.

Congratulations, you are the worst pet owner ever! They hate you so much......

They probably should too......
« Last Edit: September 17, 2016, 12:01:51 AM by sambojin »

Offline 8wGremlin

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Re: Fun Finds: 5e Edition
« Reply #259 on: September 22, 2016, 11:29:29 PM »
Fun Find:

Fighter: Scout from http://media.wizards.com/2015/downloads/dnd/04_UA_Classics_Revisited.pdf

it's 3rd level ability states
Quote
Natural Explorer
At 3rd level, you gain the ranger class feature of the same name, with the following alteration: You choose additional favored terrain types at 7th and  15th level.

Now with the revised ranger http://media.wizards.com/2016/dnd/UA_RevisedRanger.pdf That becomes
Quote
Natural Explorer
You are a master of navigating the natural world,
and you react with swift and decisive action
when attacked. This grants you the following
benefits:
• You ignore difficult terrain.
• You have advantage on initiative rolls.
• On your first turn during combat, you have
advantage on attack rolls against creatures
that have not yet acted.
In addition, you are skilled at navigating the
wilderness. You gain the following benefits when
traveling for an hour or more:
• Difficult terrain doesn’t slow your group’s
travel.
• Your group can’t become lost except by
magical means.
• Even when you are engaged in another activity
while traveling (such as foraging, navigating,
or tracking), you remain alert to danger.
• If you are traveling alone, you can move
stealthily at a normal pace.
• When you forage, you find twice as much food
as you normally would.
• While tracking other creatures, you also learn
their exact number, their sizes, and how long
ago they passed through the area.

not bad on the fighter chassis...