Becoming a Werebattletitan at level one (by someone from the WOTC boards)

[Lo77o]

Note: It would be greatly appreciated if the person who created this trick could come foward. Also, while this trick is a gray area (because "it relies on being able to define lycanthropes as a new creature created by a template instead of as a creature with a template") I feel it is gray enough to be posted here. 

"Minor Shape Change keys off disguise self, not alter self or alternate form, which did not receive the same errata.

Racial Emulation allows a Changeling to, when assuming the form of a humanoid creauter (which lycanthropes are), emulate any of that humanoid's subtypes and count as that race for other purposes.

Assume Supernatural Ability allows you to gain use a single supernatural ability of any kind of creature that you take the form of with a polymorph self or similar spell, which supposedly Racial Emulation meets, since you count as being that race by using a spell.

You use Minor Shape Change to take the form of a Werebattletitan in humanoid form, and because of Racial Emulation you count as a Werebattletitan. You then choose their Alternate Form ability as the single supernatural ability you gain from Assume Supernatural ability.

So, supposedly, as a level 1 Changeling with 1 flaw, you can take the form of a 36 HD Battletitan or it's hybrid form."

Edit: Since you need to be within one size category of the battletitan you will need access to dragon so you can emulate the half minotaur template on the character. Half minotaur gives a size category while retaining the original type.

If you don't have access to dragon you can still use the legendary animals from the monster manuel 2 or the cave dinosaurs from the minis handbook.

Edit: Gah so confused. I thought I would just be transfering this here and that would be the end of it. I'll just leave this post by Ejothims here and let you guys figure it out .

I believe it was on the old BG forums that someone explained the templated restriction still applying, though I do not honestly recall it myself.

Perhaps it was defining the race you are emulating?? As, for example, Feral Minotaur is not a race, but rather means "Minotaur race with feral template applied." I honestly do not recall.

If you do find that to be a problem (or someone else points out the reason again), below is a bit more in depth about what that gray area may or may not allow, as well as a final note about why allowing the gray area means templating in order to create a valid base for a Werebattletitan is also not an issue.

To be honest though, this trick first came out so long ago as a mere aside and is so blatantly, obviously, stupidly broken that it was never regarded (even by myself and others who supported it's potentially shady legality) as anything more than a joke... Akin to IHSing away the sun if you're a Drow.

PC: I'm playing a Changeling with 1 flaw and no gear... But I didn't take VoP...
GM: Why not?
PC: You'll see... 

(click to show/hide)

The strictest (but most complicated reading) is that there is no such creature as a Werebattletitan. Just a X base creature with the Lycanthrope template used to apply a Battletitan as the base animal. Since you cannot emulate templated forms (even though the ability itself was not given errata, it specifically keys off of things that were), you could not through this reading use this trick.

The gray reading looks at how the Lycanthrope template and other creature combining templates (tauric, etc.) are actually applied. A template used to combine two creature entries to create a third. Tauric (is supposed to) create driders and centaurs, and Lycanthrope does create the Werewolves, Werebears, etc actually listed out as monsters in the entry.

Another possibility, of course, is that within the second reading Lycanthropy creates a subset of templates, each with affects dependent on the base animal used.

IF you go with the gray reading and assume a new creature is being created as the product of the template, that creature stands in it's own right with the stats it has.

So, if you think this could work, it works regardless of whether or not the base creature had to use a template to qualify for acquiring the Lycanthropy template keyed off of Battle Titan as the base creature, as the new creature created as a result is devoid of any templates used in it's creation, though it has all the benefits/penalties of stats of them.

It is a similar concept to how templates can be stacked on both sides of a Tauric creature before Tauric is applied, then onto the Tauric whole afterwards as well.

Well, i originally posted this trick to make Changelings able to take the Illithid Savant PrC. But im glad to see that people are using it to have fun with other combinations. Im looking forward to what else people might do with it.

[zook1shoe]

You could try to take the animal form of the werebattletitan, but since its not the natural form of the creature, you probably can't

[123456789blaaa]

Well, i originally posted this trick to make Changelings able to take the Illithid Savant PrC. But im glad to see that people are using it to have fun with other combinations. Im looking forward to what else people might do with it.

So you were the one who originally came up with this trick?

[Lo77o]

Yes, and the post should be on this forum. One of the first i made here on the minmaxboards.

[Lo77o]

Ohh im mistaken. Appear i havent posted it here. Its still on BG's forum. http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=3466.40;wap2

Short version is this.

Step 1: Play as a changeling.

The changeling has the "Minor Change Shape" ability. This uses the restriction from the disguise self spell, but the changes are physical and real. This wont give me any abilities from the race i turn into, other than i look like the race, and get +10 to disguise.

The only restrictions in disguise self is size and general shape. So you will be able to look like templated forms, so long as you stick with a size and general shape that is humanoid and medium.

Step 2: Use "Minor Change Shape" to take on the appearance of an [Incarnate Construct] [Sandform] Mind Flayer.

You are now disguised as a medium humanoid.

Step 3: Pick the "Racial Emulation" feat from RoE, and you now count as the race your disguised as, so long as it is a humanoid race.

[zook1shoe]

So it seems it would work on a Slaadi Brooder if you can turn a Grey or Death into a construct for Incarnate Construct? (i'm afb)

[123456789blaaa]

So it seems it would work on a Slaadi Brooder if you can turn a Grey or Death into a construct for Incarnate Construct? (i'm afb)

I actually made a thread about that on the front page of minmax 3.5 a few weeks ago. I also suggested yuan ti cultist

[EjoThims]

Assume Supernatural Ability states it works when you use polymorph or a similar ability.  But I think you'd be hard pressed to get Disguise Self to count as a polymorph effect.  It is an illusion effect after all, not Transmutation.  Granted this is all TO anyway, but it takes a pretty liberal reading of the feat for this to work.

The spell is an illusion, but the racial ability is not. And with Racial Emulation, you actually count as a member of that race, so it actually isn't much of a stretch to think it falls under the "or a similar effect" clause of Assume Supernatural Ability, because while the ability you use is keying off a different spell, you are, quite rules literally physically changing to count as a member of another race.

Ohh im mistaken. Appear i havent posted it here. Its still on BG's forum. http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=3466.40;wap2

While you did indeed make that post, it's barely a year old, but this trick was first being tossed around... Let's see, according to a quick search for "werebattletitan" I see references on BG as far back as 2008...

By me...

And I'm pretty sure I recall first having seen the idea before the BG split...

[Lo77o]

I dont know if anyone else has been using the "trick", but i know it was an original idea in my meta. First i heard of it now that someone else has been using it before me.

[Lo77o]

Turns out i shouldent reply to posts when a bit drunk. I just read the OP's post again, and this is about using "Assume Supernatural Ability" with the Minor Change Shape ability.

What i made a post about was finding a way to count as other races than humanoids.

So just ignore me. Move along.

[Mithril Leaf]

In case you still need a large humanoid http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20040717a

[zook1shoe]

That helps if you can't have dragon magazine access

[Ananse]

OA Naga were not updated in 3.5.

Only the Shinomen Naga were, which would only apply to DMs accepting Dragon magazine.

The Naga described in the Campaign Setting were specifically mechanically distinct from the Shinomen Naga in order to allow the former to be a more accessible PC race. This was explicitly stated.* And while their stats were lower, their LAs were also lower (though ridiculously excessive, save for the Greensnake) and they were all Large. (Note that Shinomen Naga Greensnakes were not Large, but Naga Greensnakes of the OA Campaign Setting were, like all other Naga, Large -- with 40 ft. movespeed).

*The update of the Shinomen Naga has no bearing on the existence of the Campaign Setting Naga for this reason. The Shinomen Naga were listed as monsters and updated as monsters. The CA Naga were a PC race and were mechanically distinct. (Indeed, their powers and stats don't match up between them, making the entire concept incoherent. Shoddy doesn't begin to describe the design incompetence.)

So there is, in fact, one 3.5 Large 0 LA race in existence, fully legal, not updated from 3.0.