Author Topic: Interest Check--2e Netheril  (Read 16454 times)

Offline Raineh Daze

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Re: Interest Check--2e Netheril
« Reply #20 on: May 02, 2014, 11:31:36 AM »
If you're gonna do a spreadsheet, can you also do up the Winds in case we get divine casters? (As for the Arcane ones... uh, you should probably include invention date, since this is mid-Age of Discovery).

I assume natives of Netheril is more appealing than the one-year time travel option?

Offline Mnemnosyne

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Re: Interest Check--2e Netheril
« Reply #21 on: May 02, 2014, 11:42:54 AM »
Yeah, I'll do those too, 'specially since I'm considering a divine caster myself.  If I go half-elf, I'll probably be a cleric of Mystryl/Arcanist, and if I go human, I might well want to dual-class that same combination.

And yeah, I much prefer the local characters, sticking around for only one year would be really short.  2800 is an interesting date, with most spells invented, but a few really noticeable ones still missing.  At a quick glance I see that Oberon's flawless teleport, aka teleport without error doesn't come up until 2876, for instance.  Interestingly, Oberon's teleport comes after the flawless version, by 24 years, rather than the other way around.
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Offline Raineh Daze

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Re: Interest Check--2e Netheril
« Reply #22 on: May 02, 2014, 11:48:02 AM »
We're swapping those dates. :P

Offline Gazzien

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Re: Interest Check--2e Netheril
« Reply #23 on: May 02, 2014, 11:58:46 AM »
Heheh, okie then.   2nd Edition Netheril campaign just has me a biiit excited.  :blush

Gazzien, Arcanist is basically just a modification to the Mage class.  There's like four tables in the Netheril: Empire of Magic boxed set that cover the modifications.  To sum it up: you no longer memorize spells, but spontaneously cast any spell you know, using 'arcs', which are equivalent to spell points, each worth one spell level, thus a 3rd level spell costs you 3 arcs to cast.

Arcanists are also all specialists, but not in the traditional schools.  There are only three schools: Invention, Mentalism, and Variation.  Invention creates/destroys, mentalism affects the mind, variation alters things.  At least, that's the quick description.  There's a listing of PHB spells and how they fit into the three schools in the book, but it's kind of annoying to read because you have to cross-reference that table with another table that gives the Netherese names for spells.  Maybe I'll write those into a spreadsheet while you guys are reading up on the basics, so everyone who decides to play a spellcaster can reference that.

Anyway, you specialize in one of the three schools as your major, another as your minor, and you're prohibited from learning spells from the third.  If we wind up with multiple arcanists in the party, it would probably be a really good idea to make sure we have different majors, at least, because you can only research new spells from your major.  You can learn and cast any spell in your minor (up to normal limits, and based on a learn spells roll) but you can't research new spells that are deemed to belong to the minor, so someone who doesn't major in mentalism can never research a new mind control type spell.  But if they minor in it, they can learn it from whoever researches it.
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Offline Mnemnosyne

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Re: Interest Check--2e Netheril
« Reply #24 on: May 02, 2014, 12:01:25 PM »
Oh, I don't know, in a way it makes sense.  If he made the first version for personal use, but then decided to make another version to distribute more widely and presumably make more money selling copies to lower level arcanists...  A 5th level spell has a considerably larger potential market than a 7th level spell, after all.
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Offline linklord231

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Re: Interest Check--2e Netheril
« Reply #25 on: May 02, 2014, 01:46:56 PM »
I'm thinking some kind of divine gish, maybe a Fighter/Cleric (dual or multi, not sure), or a more martial Cleric kit like the Crusader from Faiths and Avatars. 
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Offline Raineh Daze

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Re: Interest Check--2e Netheril
« Reply #26 on: May 02, 2014, 01:54:04 PM »
Oh, I don't know, in a way it makes sense.  If he made the first version for personal use, but then decided to make another version to distribute more widely and presumably make more money selling copies to lower level arcanists...  A 5th level spell has a considerably larger potential market than a 7th level spell, after all.

But if he's good enough to make one like that, it shouldn't take 24 years to worsen it for mass-market applications. :rolleyes

I'm thinking some kind of divine gish, maybe a Fighter/Cleric (dual or multi, not sure), or a more martial Cleric kit like the Crusader from Faiths and Avatars. 

Don't make me try and source too many books... :(

... more importantly, I'm not even sure if the actual Netheril clerics work with other stuff, seeing how their casting works and what sort of tradeoffs those things have (basically, spontaneously cast from X number of lists, where the exact number and identity of X is determined by the god they serve; actual 'how much can you cast per day' is determined similar to arcanists)

Offline linklord231

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Re: Interest Check--2e Netheril
« Reply #27 on: May 02, 2014, 02:14:29 PM »
Oh, I don't know, in a way it makes sense.  If he made the first version for personal use, but then decided to make another version to distribute more widely and presumably make more money selling copies to lower level arcanists...  A 5th level spell has a considerably larger potential market than a 7th level spell, after all.

But if he's good enough to make one like that, it shouldn't take 24 years to worsen it for mass-market applications. :rolleyes
Not that it matters, since both spells aren't invented until 75 years after we're playing. 

I'm thinking some kind of divine gish, maybe a Fighter/Cleric (dual or multi, not sure), or a more martial Cleric kit like the Crusader from Faiths and Avatars. 
... more importantly, I'm not even sure if the actual Netheril clerics work with other stuff, seeing how their casting works and what sort of tradeoffs those things have (basically, spontaneously cast from X number of lists, where the exact number and identity of X is determined by the god they serve; actual 'how much can you cast per day' is determined similar to arcanists)

You're right, it doesn't look like that's allowed  :-\
Quote from: Netheril, Empire of Magic 18
The character classes listed in the Player’s Handbook are all available in the times of Netheril. Some of them have changed slightly from their PHB incarnation, in order to fit in better with the Netheril’s style of magic use.  In addition, none of the optional kits described in any of the various Complete books are applicable to the Netheril setting. Warriors and Priests of the Realms and Wizards and Rogues of the Realms are likewise inapplicable, since the countries those kits are based upon are not even in existence.
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Offline Mnemnosyne

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Re: Interest Check--2e Netheril
« Reply #28 on: May 02, 2014, 05:20:44 PM »
Some of the kits there's no reason for them not to be allowed, really, except to keep things simple, which is probably the best reason to not use them.

And I found several amusing semi-contradictions in the spell dates.  Under the description of the Mavin's Worldweave spell, it's noted that the spell was used hundreds of times throughout Netheril's existence in order to keep the northern climate temperate and comfortable.  ...but according to the date chart, Mavin's Worldweave was researched in 3205, only 315 years before the Fall.  The maps of Netheril also support the idea that it must have been in use much earlier.  Also hilariously, in the timeline of Netheril, it's noted that Sunrest fell in 2202 while research was being conducted on an ultra-powerful version of the meteor swarm spell...but Mavin's Meteors wasn't researched until 3384.

And then, looking through spells, some names are credited for spells from more than one school, even though arcanists are supposed to only be able to research spells from their major school.  I suppose it could be explained under some sort of collaborative effort, or simply a master or teacher taking credit for their students' work.  Of course, some spells also exist in more than one school, so that might also be part of it.

Oh, also, it doesn't seem necessary to make a spreadsheet for the winds; they don't have alternate names.  The only table for them is just listing which winds they're under, so there's no need to go back and forth cross-referencing multiple tables like there is for arcanist spells.  All you need to know is which winds your god grants access to, and reference that one table.  Also, since they're simply granted by the gods, all of them are available throughout the entire timeline.

Anyway, here's the link to the excel spreadsheet: Netherese Arcanist Spell Reference.  And in case someone can't open excel sheets, here's an HTML form.
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Offline Raineh Daze

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Re: Interest Check--2e Netheril
« Reply #29 on: May 02, 2014, 05:23:27 PM »
Was more a case of having everything in one page rather than spread halfway across the book.

Entertaining me currently is the suggestion that no-one would ever play a human/humans would be wiped out if the demihumans didn't have class/level restrictions. Riiiiiiight, because humans are not the humanoid rabbit. :lmao

Updated version of the above text with colour-coded boxes to show which spells haven't been invented yet.
« Last Edit: May 02, 2014, 05:35:57 PM by Raineh Daze »

Offline Mnemnosyne

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Re: Interest Check--2e Netheril
« Reply #30 on: May 02, 2014, 06:09:10 PM »
Well, in 2nd Edition, demihumans were at least as superior to humans as humans tend to be superior to other races in 3.5.  If you're going for optimization, it's often difficult to justify not being human in 3.5, and similarly in 2nd Edition, without level limits, it can be difficult to justify not being an elf, or a dwarf, or even a gnome or halfling.  So there is some reason for that statement, it's not entirely baseless.

However, humans can dual-class.  If you've got the stats for it, it's flat out superior to multiclass, because it allows you to stop dumping xp into a class once you have everything you want out of it.  A Fighter/Mage dual-class can level fighter up to as high as they want to gain benefits from fighter from, then dual-class out into mage, and never have to spend xp on Fighter again.  7, 9, and 13 are great drop-points.  An elven Fighter/Mage requires 7,500,000 xp to get to 20th level as a wizard, but a human Fighter 13/Mage 20 only requires 4,750,000 xp.  The latter will have a THAC0 of 8 instead of 1, but otherwise won't have missed out on much that the elven Fighter/Mage has.  When the human has earned a total of 7,500,000 xp like the elf, the human will be a Fighter 13/Mage 27.

Ironically, this seems like an ability far more suited to the long-lived races.  An elf is likely to spend a human lifetime perfecting her skill at thievery, then set that aside once she's rich, practicing swordplay instead and becoming a famous warrior...then set that aside to focus the remainder of her life on mastering the secrets of the arcane.  While a human seems much more likely to want to do all of those at the same time.  It's one of the funny things I always thought to be backwards about 2nd Edition.  Love a lot about it, but the racial class and level limits always left me scratching my head.  Things like elves (renowned for their music and poetry) not being able to be bards.

In any case, if the character has the stats for it, being human for dual classing is usually worth it.  The stats, of course, are the big limiter: you need 17 in the prime requisite of what you're dual-classing into, and 15 in your previous class's prime requisite.  My own stat rolls won't let me dual-class unless I somehow increase Int by at least one point.  Still, I would suspect that there's enough reason to play humans purely for the advantages of dual-classing, although the full strength of it only comes into play in a long-running campaign.  Of course, racial level limits will also only become noticeable in a long-running campaign.
« Last Edit: May 02, 2014, 06:12:33 PM by Mnemnosyne »
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Offline Raineh Daze

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Re: Interest Check--2e Netheril
« Reply #31 on: May 02, 2014, 06:12:33 PM »
And right now, picking a non-human means you're a foreigner in a rather insular empire that has 20+ level arcanists ruling over city-states. So it's not the biggest problem. :lmao

And can you show me your stat rolls? It would be nice to know where you've done this stuff. :p

Offline Mnemnosyne

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Re: Interest Check--2e Netheril
« Reply #32 on: May 02, 2014, 06:17:03 PM »
Yeah, I rolled on Invisible Castle earlier on, guess you missed the link up above: http://invisiblecastle.com/roller/view/4488365/

The local dice roller mentioned it wasn't secure and could be edited, and I didn't see a way to format 'drop lowest' in it.
-Do you honestly think that we believe ourselves evil? My friend, we seek only good. It's just that our definitions don't quite match.-
Ailanreanter, Arcanaloth

Offline Garryl

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Re: Interest Check--2e Netheril
« Reply #33 on: May 02, 2014, 06:24:41 PM »
Here's another version of your spell spreadsheet, Mnemnosyne. I added the ability to select which year it color-codes for, and to select which of the three schools are your major/minor/banned. Spells that have been invented but aren't one of your allowed schools have the year in gold, but the background in red. It's in OpenOffice, not Excel, though, as I don't have Excel.

What are the character creation guidelines? Stat generation, starting xp total, that sort of thing? Starting equipment and spells can come a bit later.

Offline Raineh Daze

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Re: Interest Check--2e Netheril
« Reply #34 on: May 02, 2014, 06:53:26 PM »
Stat generation is 4d6, best three. Starting XP total... probably 0?

Offline linklord231

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Re: Interest Check--2e Netheril
« Reply #35 on: May 02, 2014, 07:17:58 PM »
How do you feel about non-human characters?  Can a Dwarf cleric use a kit, or be a specialty priest of a Dwarven god? 
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Offline Raineh Daze

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Re: Interest Check--2e Netheril
« Reply #36 on: May 02, 2014, 07:23:02 PM »
How do you feel about non-human characters?  Can a Dwarf cleric use a kit, or be a specialty priest of a Dwarven god? 

We're in Netheril. I'm not sure a dwarven priest would be popular or very happy at all. For one, insane magic usage; two, these are bloody flying cities; three, this is a human empire and thus I kinda doubt the amount of attention a Dwarven god would get. How would a dwarf fit into it? A half elf at least has the excuse that the elves do have some desire to try and stop the Netherese from blowing themselves and everyone else up now and then. O_o

As for speciality priest: since Mystryl has yet to die and Mystra thus hasn't reconfigured magic, essentially (I think), that's what all priests kind of are. They cast spontaneously from a selection of spells dependent upon their god.

Offline linklord231

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Re: Interest Check--2e Netheril
« Reply #37 on: May 02, 2014, 07:52:34 PM »
My idea for a dwarf was basically that Netheril has very good relations with the Delzoun dwarves, who traded gems and such for magic items.  A Dwarf in Netheril could be there as part of a trading company, sent there to appraise the magic items his clan is considering purchasing, or perhaps guarding a shipment of gems.  Alternatively, he could be a refuge from Illusk (I think that was recently sacked by a horde of orcs, if I got my timeline right).
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Offline Raineh Daze

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Re: Interest Check--2e Netheril
« Reply #38 on: May 02, 2014, 08:00:06 PM »
My idea for a dwarf was basically that Netheril has very good relations with the Delzoun dwarves, who traded gems and such for magic items.  A Dwarf in Netheril could be there as part of a trading company, sent there to appraise the magic items his clan is considering purchasing, or perhaps guarding a shipment of gems.  Alternatively, he could be a refuge from Illusk (I think that was recently sacked by a horde of orcs, if I got my timeline right).

I think you're about 1000 years out for Illusk on either side*. Though the clan thing seems plausible, I'm not really sure why you'd send a priest, or why you'd stay on one of the flying cities.

We'd better not end up with a party of entirely nonhumans, because I can't imagine you'd get trusted with all that much. Even worse if any humans are all thieves or something... :rolleyes

*Barbarians got it about 1700, Phaerimm 3500.

On a side note, I'd have to work out what damn spells you have access to, since the book only has it for the human gods at the time. :p
« Last Edit: May 02, 2014, 08:13:20 PM by Raineh Daze »

Offline linklord231

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Re: Interest Check--2e Netheril
« Reply #39 on: May 02, 2014, 08:26:59 PM »
Why send a priest? Because who better to check out the quality of the items you're buying than a priest of the god of Craftsdwarfship? Good point about the spells thing though.

My other idea was a priest of Mystryl, in case that doesn't work out.
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