Author Topic: [Practical Opt] Eberron Sovereign Crusader  (Read 5125 times)

Offline Nifft

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[Practical Opt] Eberron Sovereign Crusader
« on: October 16, 2017, 11:29:04 PM »
Preface

This is a concept that I've had in mind for a while. It's not for any specific game -- yet. But some day I might be able to play again, instead of running. This is a build to hedge that happy day.

Sovereign Speaker is a class from Faiths of Eberron which adds 9 Domains over 9 levels, and advances spellcasting by 7 levels. Getting in requires 8 ranks of Knowledge (religion) and one feat: Worldly Focus (from Faiths of Eberron).

Divine Crusader is a class from Complete Divine which gives you 9 levels of spells in 10 class levels, but your spell list is one Domain. Getting in requires BAB +7, 2 ranks of Knowledge (religion), and one feat: Weapon Focus in your patron's weapon.

According to Faiths of Eberron, the Sovereign Host can be treated as a single patron, and as such the Sovereign Host has favored weapon: longsword.
(click to show/hide)


Build Skeleton

The character must be Neutral Good to gain and retain Divine Crusader spellcasting, and since this is practical optimization that limits the prefix and postfix classes to choices which are compatible with NG alignment.

(any full-BAB) 7 / Divine Crusader 1 / Sovereign Speaker 9 / (2:3 caster advancing PrC)

Ability scores: Divine Crusader casts from Charisma, so that's going to be important. Mono-dependence on Charisma would be pretty sweet.

The 7-level prefix and 3-level postfix are the main areas where I want input.

Domain selection is another significant area.

Character race may be strongly limited by the postfix (see below).


Prefix Discussion

The obvious choice seems to be Crusader, which is strong in its own right and has Knowledge (religion) as a class skill. Seven levels in Crusader gives one level 4 Maneuver, Cha to Will, an arbitrary Smite 1/day, and access to White Raven Tactics.

Duskblade is interesting. It looks like Arcane Channel, Spell Power, and Quick Casting would also apply to our Divine Crusader spells. The Int casting requirement is a negative, but that's balanced by access to Knowledge (religion) and a generally good skill list. At level 7 we'd be able to cast level 2 Duskblade spells in Medium armor with a Heavy shield. Having a decent Int is nice for skills at all levels, but with a low point-buy this might not be viable. Still, if you can boost Int + Cha + Con, and have enough Dex or Str left over to hit things occasionally, this might be the best of all.

Warblade has some Intelligence perks, but ignoring them isn't a big downside, and if we can get even +2 Int that's not bad. Huge HD, Iron Heart Surge, and White Raven Tactics... not a bad package. Not as good as Crusader's Charisma synergy, but not bad. Possibly better Con(centration) synergy, in fact, since that investment will benefit Diamond Mind early, and benefit casting late-game.

Paladin would have great Charisma synergy, at least for 4 levels, but our NG alignment requirement seems to prohibit its use.

Oddly enough Battle Dancer (from Dragon Compendium) might have been usable, since it has some Charisma synergy and all we actually need is full BAB -- but again our NG alignment requirement seems to prohibit its use.

Ranger is usually a good choice, and with the Education feat (Eberron Campaign Setting) we'd have access to the skills we need. Mystic Ranger might be viable with an Elf, or with a few Crusader levels, for Longsword proficiency -- or if we actually spent a feat on Longsword Proficiency, but that thought hurts my soul.

Barbarian (+Education) is a fun image. With flaws, we could squeeze in Barbarian 4 / Fist of the Forest 3 and be the smelliest wandering prophet.

Swashbuckler 3 (+Education, or +Crusader) might be interesting, if you have enough Dexterity & Intelligence to make use of the bonuses.

Fighter is a class that exists. Yep. We could get some feats. Or, with the Thug + Sneak Attack variants, it's even a decent value for 7 levels, but still demands the Education feat. Still, Sneak Attack +4d6 isn't terrible.

Half-Orc Paragon is full BAB, and so is the follow up Orc Paragon. That's potentially 6 levels of base-class avoidance altogether, and up to +4 Strength, but I don't find them to be particularly compelling. Dwarf Paragon is also full BAB with +2 Con, but I think it's also not particularly compelling. Maybe I'm spoiled by high point-buys.

Anything else viable?

What early-access PrCs could fit in?


Postfix Discussion

At level 17, we take Sovereign Speaker 9. That leaves us with 8/10 advancement of Divine Crusader casting, so we want 2 more levels of spellcasting advancement, plus whatever else we can get. We have access to 10 Domains at this point, and 8th level spells.

I see two different yet compelling choices:

Heir of Siberys (from Eberron Campaign Setting) - One of the most iconic Eberron classes, and a perfect fit. The spell granted keys off your race, so your race choice is severely limited to the so-called "dragonmarked races". Human is generally best, having access to Mark of Making and Mark of Storm -- but Half-Orc, Half-Elf, Elf, and Dwarf are all potentially viable.

These Siberys Dragonmarks are strong in terms of raw power, plus they're politically significant.

Requires one feat (Heroic Spirit) and 15 ranks in any two skills.


Uncanny Trickster (from Complete Scoundrel) - This can advance Sovereign Speaker, which advances spellcasting and bonus Domain access. We would end up with a total of 12 Domains at level 20. Plus, we get 3 bonus skill tricks (yawn), and we can pick 3 skill tricks that work 2/encounter instead of 1/encounter -- this latter ability is solid, since Swift action Concentration is strong for a high-level primary caster.

Domain abilities can be strong, and adding another up to 18 spells to our list is potentially the best use of these 3 levels.

Requires 4 skill tricks, which probably means a decent Int will be rewarded.


Each of these are 3/4 BAB, which leaves us with BAB +16.75 at level 20, which is a nice way to enter Epic.

But those are just two obvious capstone classes. What else could go here?


Domain Choices

So, which Domains to pick?

Sovereign Speaker has an odd requirement that you can't have more than 2 Domains from any specific deity. This means that Domains which are common to several gods are toxic -- for example, if you take the Good domain which is common to 6 gods, you're now limited to at most 1 other Domain from each of those gods.

Luckily, most Domains are exclusive to only one god. The Domains to treat carefully are:
- Good (6 gods: Arwal, Baldorei, Dol Arrah, Dol Dorn, Olidrah, Onatar)
- Law (3 gods: Aureon, Baldorei, Dol Arrah)
- Creation (2 gods: Arwal, Onatar)
- War (2 gods: Dol Arrah, Dol Dorn)

All other Domains are free & clear, and the list is a doozy -- the full list is discussed here: http://bg-archive.minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=3429

(click to show/hide)

Help me rate them, and pick an order.


Summing Up

This is a character who goes from being a nobody with a dead-end job ("Full BAB? Feh, peasant.") to being an incredibly powerful spellcaster, and possibly a politically significant player in one of the major Dragonmarked Houses.

The major support for the concept is just 10 character levels in the middle of the class build, leaving a lot of room for customization at both ends.

There are a lot of free feat slots, too.


Please help me figure out all the potential specifics.

Thanks!

Offline TC X0 Lt 0X

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Re: [Practical Opt] Eberron Sovereign Crusader
« Reply #1 on: October 17, 2017, 03:41:18 AM »
Ive thought about the concept in the past, but never got to execute it. The advantages are obvious.
If we are talking Domain abuse, you of course need to mention the other PrCs that grant Domains.
Church Inquisitor gives more skill points and Detect Evil ala Paladin, though it does have the alignment conflict. Inquisition Domain doesnt have the best spells but does have a decent granted power.
Contemplative potentially loses 1 or 2 points of HP (not anything of note) and gets Divine Health on top of any Domain your deity grants. You auto qualify for it too (minus the flavor requirement which should be easy to complete.)
Seeker of the Misty Isle requires Elf, but grants 4 more skill points. You are stuck with Travel Domain with this one though. Also grants Martial Weapon prof, but that isnt amazing and you probably already have it.
Divine Oracle gets you access to the Divination Domain which isnt on your deity domain list, along with a minor bonus to divination (scrying) DCs. You do trade out for a d6 HD and a feat prereq.

I would say Contemplative is a must as soon as you qualify. Church Inquisitor is a decent pick if you have the requirements and want Inquisiton Domain. Seeker is worth it if you were going to pick up Travel Domain anyways (and are an elf). Divine Oracle is costly but if you want the spells a decent option.
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Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: [Practical Opt] Eberron Sovereign Crusader
« Reply #2 on: October 17, 2017, 11:47:30 AM »
So I hope you don't mind but I may end up swiping the key components of your build one day, I mentioned the Speaker but didn't bother creating an example.

Offline Nifft

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Re: [Practical Opt] Eberron Sovereign Crusader
« Reply #3 on: October 17, 2017, 12:32:50 PM »
Ive thought about the concept in the past, but never got to execute it. The advantages are obvious.
If we are talking Domain abuse, you of course need to mention the other PrCs that grant Domains.
Church Inquisitor gives more skill points and Detect Evil ala Paladin, though it does have the alignment conflict. Inquisition Domain doesnt have the best spells but does have a decent granted power.
Yeah the alignment makes this no good:
Alignment: Lawful good or lawful neutral

Contemplative potentially loses 1 or 2 points of HP (not anything of note) and gets Divine Health on top of any Domain your deity grants. You auto qualify for it too (minus the flavor requirement which should be easy to complete.)
GREAT idea. Contemplative is fantastic, and gives you any Domain you want -- off-list from the Sovereign Speaker group, or (if you take it after) as a way to exceed the 2/god limit.

With fractional BAB, we'd still get BAB +16 at level 20.

Seeker of the Misty Isle requires Elf, but grants 4 more skill points. You are stuck with Travel Domain with this one though. Also grants Martial Weapon prof, but that isnt amazing and you probably already have it.
Travel is a great Domain, but yeah, being an Elf isn't usually optimal.

The flavor is a bit problematic, too -- it's questionable whether joining Corellon's special club is appropriate for an Eberron PC.

Divine Oracle gets you access to the Divination Domain which isnt on your deity domain list, along with a minor bonus to divination (scrying) DCs. You do trade out for a d6 HD and a feat prereq.
Oracle is there, under Aureon, so it could cause conflict if you're after 2 other Aureon domains -- and Aureon gets enough good stuff that you could plausibly want to get 3 of his -- Mind, Spell, Force, and Oracle all seem pretty good (at a glance).

That aside, Divine Oracle is a great idea, and the horrible feat prereq is not that bad on this skeleton -- we have a lot of unclaimed Feat slots.

I would say Contemplative is a must as soon as you qualify. Church Inquisitor is a decent pick if you have the requirements and want Inquisiton Domain. Seeker is worth it if you were going to pick up Travel Domain anyways (and are an elf). Divine Oracle is costly but if you want the spells a decent option.
  Aside from the one bad feat, is anything else costly about Divine Oracle?


So I hope you don't mind but I may end up swiping the key components of your build one day, I mentioned the Speaker but didn't bother creating an example.
Please be my guest.

I've seen this build mentioned before, but I haven't really seen it discussed in depth.

I can't really claim credit for any original ideas here, I'm just trying to organize what exists into something I can use (eventually).

Offline TC X0 Lt 0X

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Re: [Practical Opt] Eberron Sovereign Crusader
« Reply #4 on: October 17, 2017, 01:46:56 PM »
(click to show/hide)

Ah I see they renamed the Divination Domain to Oracle Domain on 3e > 3.5 conversion of the class. That being the case I would  imagine it even less desirable if you can take a Soverign Speaker level instead. It is still definitely a option, but I feel like that Skill Focus Feat can go to something else more useful. But if the feat and class level are open then Oracle does add a great deal of utility.



For Level 5 and 6 we can qualify for Soldier of Light, which will get us Turn Undead and Divine Grace. It overall fits thematically as well, though it does have a different deity prereq, but it is a non eberron deity and it would be reasonable to re-adapt it for Sovereign in Eberron perhaps.
« Last Edit: October 17, 2017, 02:02:43 PM by TC X0 Lt 0X »
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Offline Nifft

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Re: [Practical Opt] Eberron Sovereign Crusader
« Reply #5 on: October 17, 2017, 04:15:09 PM »
Ah I see they renamed the Divination Domain to Oracle Domain on 3e > 3.5 conversion of the class. That being the case I would  imagine it even less desirable if you can take a Soverign Speaker level instead. It is still definitely a option, but I feel like that Skill Focus Feat can go to something else more useful. But if the feat and class level are open then Oracle does add a great deal of utility.
Yeah the Skill Focus is a painful waste, but Oracle is a good domain.



For Level 5 and 6 we can qualify for Soldier of Light, which will get us Turn Undead and Divine Grace. It overall fits thematically as well, though it does have a different deity prereq, but it is a non eberron deity and it would be reasonable to re-adapt it for Sovereign in Eberron perhaps.
You mean level 6 and 7 right? Since the entry prereq is BAB +5?

It would be a mechanically fantastic combo, yeah -- the Divine Grace + Turn Undead is awesome.

However, the Eberron adaptation is unclear -- there is a Path of Light religion over in Sarlona, which might be more appropriate.

But yeah, if you can get the Soldier of Light adapted to fit the Sovereign Host, then it's just plain brilliant (pun fully intended with malice aforethought).



Over on GitP, these suggestions came up:

- Paragnostic Initiate for levels 5-6-7, which seems like a mechanically solid and flavor-perfect way to transition from full BAB into Divine spellcasting. The features are a bit 'meh' but the skeleton is good -- full BAB and 6+Int skill points, and no feat tax to enter.

- Ordained Champion was mentioned. How would the class features work, though? Modified spontaneous casting is non-functional for Divine Crusader; the War domain specification doesn't seem to apply (since we have no Cleric levels, and we have only Domain slots); we can't Smite without any Turn Undead (which DC doesn't grant). But if the features did work, they might be nice. Also, the required devotion to one god seems antithetical to the pantheonic worship mandated by Sovereign Speaker.

- A variant Paladin with a Neutral Good alignment (Sentinel) from Dragon #310, p.50 -- it gets Divine Grace and Turn Fiends, plus some anti-fiend powers which seem like a good anti-Khyber platform. It's Dragon content but it's not that bad.

Offline awaken_D_M_golem

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Re: [Practical Opt] Eberron Sovereign Crusader
« Reply #6 on: October 17, 2017, 05:13:44 PM »
Legacy Champion prc advances a 1 level dip of Sovereign Speaker, by 8/10.
Then ToB +1 early or late, or any +1 caster prc.
Not necessarily down a tier, via the build + weapon synergy.

I wonder about Ur-Priest 2 working with Eberron cosmology
otherwise subbing straight into the Div Crusader 1.
Nar Demonbinder basically doesn't fit Eberron.
Sublime Chord if you stretched in a little Bard 3 or 4.
Same with Ardent 3 or 4 with the typical tricks.
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Offline Nifft

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Re: [Practical Opt] Eberron Sovereign Crusader
« Reply #7 on: October 18, 2017, 04:39:05 PM »
New thought: Warshaper 4 as part of the prefix.

One Changeling plus four levels of any full-BAB class ought to be sufficient to get in; we'd get all the good stuff from Warshaper, but delay casting by 1 level, and remove 1 level of non-casting slack from the post-fix.


Legacy Champion prc advances a 1 level dip of Sovereign Speaker, by 8/10.
Then ToB +1 early or late, or any +1 caster prc.
Not necessarily down a tier, via the build + weapon synergy.

I wonder about Ur-Priest 2 working with Eberron cosmology
otherwise subbing straight into the Div Crusader 1.
Nar Demonbinder basically doesn't fit Eberron.
Sublime Chord if you stretched in a little Bard 3 or 4.
Same with Ardent 3 or 4 with the typical tricks.

Ur-Priest: fuck all the gods.

Sovereign Speaker: love all the gods.

That seems like a conflict in motivation, unless you're using the Book of Erotic Fantasy.

But seriously, no, the alignment conflict alone would kill that match-up -- I'm sure there are ways to fit Ur-Priest into Eberron, but it's not going to mesh with Sovereign Speaker.


Legacy Champion seems interesting, what's that full build look like? (From level 8+, after Divine Crusader 1.)

I think you'd lose out on a level of spellcasting, but maybe I'm counting wrong.
« Last Edit: October 18, 2017, 05:59:41 PM by Nifft »

Offline TC X0 Lt 0X

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Re: [Practical Opt] Eberron Sovereign Crusader
« Reply #8 on: October 19, 2017, 06:49:32 PM »
Alternatively there is the Uncanny Trickster as well, which avoids the need for the Legacy Weapon a DM might not allow. If we are taking all levels of  Sovereign it is taking up the same number of levels as Legacy Champion in a standard 20 level build.

So what feats are good in this build. I don't think Divine Crusader spell slots count as Domain slots, so the Spontaneous Domains feat is not of much use. Domain Spontaneity only applies to one domain and needs turn undead to boot.
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Offline awaken_D_M_golem

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Re: [Practical Opt] Eberron Sovereign Crusader
« Reply #9 on: October 20, 2017, 04:26:15 PM »
Same start :

X 7 / DC 1 / SS 1 / LC 10 / Y 1
LC advances the class at 8/10 so you'd get all 9 levels of SS this way.
If Y is a +1 caster level prc (like DC too) that would be all of the DC casting.
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Offline Surreal

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Re: [Practical Opt] Eberron Sovereign Crusader
« Reply #10 on: October 20, 2017, 07:32:38 PM »
Maybe my CO rust is showing... but how about the oft forgotten Dragon Disciple? You need one more single level PrC dip to advance your Divine Crusader to 9th level spells, but then using two levels at the end with Dragon Disciple nets you two L9 spells rather than using a PrC to net one L8 and one L9. Duskblade would be the easiest entry and flavourwise you've all all the dragon schtuff happening.

edit: or actually, use a PrC for two more casting levels to max out Divine Crusader casting, then for your last level take Dragon Disciple to nab one more 9th level spell.

Offline Nifft

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Re: [Practical Opt] Eberron Sovereign Crusader
« Reply #11 on: October 20, 2017, 09:02:36 PM »
Same start :

X 7 / DC 1 / SS 1 / LC 10 / Y 1
LC advances the class at 8/10 so you'd get all 9 levels of SS this way.
If Y is a +1 caster level prc (like DC too) that would be all of the DC casting.
My swords will kill you, or my Lords will kill you.

LC advances SS 8/10, but SS only advances casting 7/9.

So you're losing 4 total caster advancements over 12 levels.

Even with straight Sovereign Speaker advancement, we need 2 additional PrC levels to get all 10 levels of Divine Crusader casting.

Maybe my CO rust is showing... but how about the oft forgotten Dragon Disciple? You need one more single level PrC dip to advance your Divine Crusader to 9th level spells, but then using two levels at the end with Dragon Disciple nets you two L9 spells rather than using a PrC to net one L8 and one L9. Duskblade would be the easiest entry and flavourwise you've all all the dragon schtuff happening.

edit: or actually, use a PrC for two more casting levels to max out Divine Crusader casting, then for your last level take Dragon Disciple to nab one more 9th level spell.
Yep, I'd totally forgotten Dragon Disciple.

You're right that 1 level at ECL 20 could be great, because more level 9 spells are great.

Also, the Sovereign Host has some kind of connection with the various dragons of Eberron, so it's even got a decent flavor-fit.


In that vein, the next best thing would be, I dunno... maybe Dread Witch 1, for +1 spell at each level, but only an Illusion...  (are there even Illusions on the Domain lists?)


Anyway, thanks!

Offline Surreal

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Re: [Practical Opt] Eberron Sovereign Crusader
« Reply #12 on: November 06, 2017, 12:51:27 AM »
I wonder if wrangling in turning for divine metamagic is too feat intensive for this build.

Offline Nifft

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Re: [Practical Opt] Eberron Sovereign Crusader
« Reply #13 on: November 06, 2017, 01:10:43 AM »
I wonder if wrangling in turning for divine metamagic is too feat intensive for this build.

You could take Extend Spell and Persistent Spell in the prefix, before you get any spellcasting, then DMM: Persist any time after Sacred Exorcist 1 (which requires no feats to enter).


EDIT: The main penalty is that the Good domain is very common among the Sovereign Host, so obtaining Dispel Evil is potentially a fairly nasty restriction on Domain choices.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2017, 01:14:28 AM by Nifft »

Offline DavidWL

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Re: [Practical Opt] Eberron Sovereign Crusader
« Reply #14 on: November 12, 2017, 04:07:49 AM »
Some things that may be interesting:

I vaguely remember a Dragon magazine article that allowed for custom domains w/ some substitution.  For example, Magic domain allowed any spell 1 or 2 level lower as sub.

Substitute domain would be useful:  http://dnd.arkalseif.info/spells/complete-champion--57/substitute-domain--629/

Also heretic of the faith to potentially customize a domain some more: http://dnd.arkalseif.info/feats/power-of-faerun--31/heretic-of-the-faith--1379/index.html

Best,
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Offline Endarire

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Re: [Practical Opt] Eberron Sovereign Crusader
« Reply #15 on: November 23, 2017, 02:14:53 AM »
Whatever you take for your postfix/suffix, I strongly advise you ensure you get level 9 casting.  I know that you have such already, but this is a reminder to follow through on your plan.
« Last Edit: November 23, 2017, 02:36:31 AM by Endarire »