Author Topic: Hmm... This is an idea...  (Read 1982 times)

Offline Amechra

  • Epic Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 4560
  • Thread Necromancy a specialty
    • View Profile
Hmm... This is an idea...
« on: March 12, 2013, 09:27:53 AM »
Alright, I was trawling through homebrew threads on GitP (it's a hobby...), and I came across the following:

Quote from: Ashtagon
Personally, I favour a flat DC 15 + caster's spellcasting ability modifier. No modifier for spell level or class level. That way, save or suck gradually gets phased out as meaningless. At high levels, PCs no longer have "I win" buttons at their disposal, and likewise NPCs can;'t accidentally slay a cherished PC because of a lucky die roll.

It was in a thread about auto-scaling spell DCs based on class levels. Now, I'm just wondering, how would something like this (taking spell level out of the equation, as it were), combined with a houserule that caster level equals character level, no higher, no lower, affect in combat play with a wizard?
"There is happiness for those who accept their fate, there is glory for those that defy it."

"Now that everyone's so happy, this is probably a good time to tell you I ate your parents."

Offline Garryl

  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • ****
  • Posts: 4511
    • View Profile
Re: Hmm... This is an idea...
« Reply #1 on: March 12, 2013, 11:08:46 AM »
Save or suck already gradually gets phased out. Semi-fixed DCs like that make them stronger at low levels when they rock hard already, and weaker at higher levels when you can stack many save boosters relatively easily (+6 base, +2 stat, +5 resistance, +5 morale is a total of +18 on a bad save without even trying). Monster save DCs usually cap out at around 25-28 by CR 20, and most player spellcasters are around 5 points above that with level 9 spells at level 20. Of course, optimized DCs will blow that out of the water, but they're extremely variable and go off the RNG no matter what you do to the formula.

Quote from: Ashtagon
Personally, I favour a flat DC 15 + caster's spellcasting ability modifier. No modifier for spell level or class level. That way, save or suck gradually gets phased out as meaningless. At high levels, PCs no longer have "I win" buttons at their disposal, and likewise NPCs can;'t accidentally slay a cherished PC because of a lucky die roll.

This is wrong. The proposed solution solves none of the identified issues. At high levels, PCs still throw around no-save-just-sucks, or optimize their DCs to make up for losing up to 4 points on the high end. Meanwhile, a lucky (or unlucky) roll still means players can roll a natural 1 against that Finger of Death.

Also note that at low levels, you can easily be looking at DC 19-21 saves. Meanwhile, save modifiers are still between -1 and +7. This kind of seals it in favor of the spellcaster.

Offline Amechra

  • Epic Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 4560
  • Thread Necromancy a specialty
    • View Profile
Re: Hmm... This is an idea...
« Reply #2 on: March 12, 2013, 11:33:38 AM »
I kinda thought of that after I posted.

I still think the basic idea is a nice one; it's easier to remember, at least.
"There is happiness for those who accept their fate, there is glory for those that defy it."

"Now that everyone's so happy, this is probably a good time to tell you I ate your parents."

Offline phaedrusxy

  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • ****
  • Posts: 10708
  • The iconic spambot
    • View Profile
Re: Hmm... This is an idea...
« Reply #3 on: March 12, 2013, 12:10:00 PM »
Why have it totally fixed? I use 10 + 1/2 character level + casting ability modifier for everything. That way it still scales, but the lower level "save or suck" abilities don't become totally useless as you level up. It's also easy to remember.

I also get rid of a bunch of the modifier types, so it is harder to crank your saving throw modifiers (and everything else) to insane levels.
I don't pee messages into the snow often , but when I do , it's in Cyrillic with Fake Viagra.  Stay frosty my friends.

Offline Amechra

  • Epic Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 4560
  • Thread Necromancy a specialty
    • View Profile
Re: Hmm... This is an idea...
« Reply #4 on: March 12, 2013, 12:25:33 PM »
The funny thing is, that was what the OP in the thread was suggesting; and then a bunch of people got on his/her case that it just made Wizards stronger (because their early level spells are more potent, so they have OMFG number of SoDs/SoSs.)

I already use that progression for initiators if I'm running them, so...
"There is happiness for those who accept their fate, there is glory for those that defy it."

"Now that everyone's so happy, this is probably a good time to tell you I ate your parents."

Offline phaedrusxy

  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • ****
  • Posts: 10708
  • The iconic spambot
    • View Profile
Re: Hmm... This is an idea...
« Reply #5 on: March 12, 2013, 01:04:57 PM »
yeah well... gitp...
I don't pee messages into the snow often , but when I do , it's in Cyrillic with Fake Viagra.  Stay frosty my friends.

Offline Nunkuruji

  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • ***
  • Posts: 905
  • I shall bring great terror
    • View Profile
Re: Hmm... This is an idea...
« Reply #6 on: March 26, 2013, 03:11:36 PM »
In my mind I see a ballet of 1st level Wizards dancing about shouting Color Spray!