Author Topic: What's your favourite "dice based resolution mechanic"?  (Read 28297 times)

Offline Shining Phoenix

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Re: What's your favourite "dice based resolution mechanic"?
« Reply #20 on: November 08, 2011, 09:14:06 AM »
I'm torn between XdY+Z and another system called, "reverse dice-pool."

The way reverse dice-pool works is this: You roll some number of dice (The instance I saw was with d6s); if none of the dice come up 1, you succeed. Difficulty is adjusted by adding and removing dice. If you care what, exactly, caused you to fail, you can use differently colored dice for different things. The more 1s you get, the worse the failure.
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Offline Mooncrow

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Re: What's your favourite "dice based resolution mechanic"?
« Reply #21 on: November 08, 2011, 11:10:20 AM »
I'm torn between XdY+Z and another system called, "reverse dice-pool."

The way reverse dice-pool works is this: You roll some number of dice (The instance I saw was with d6s); if none of the dice come up 1, you succeed. Difficulty is adjusted by adding and removing dice. If you care what, exactly, caused you to fail, you can use differently colored dice for different things. The more 1s you get, the worse the failure.

So, effectively, you're trying to roll as few dice as possible?  Hmm, I have to say from a flavor perspective, I wouldn't like that a whole lot, though I can't really comment on the mathematical aspect.

Offline Unbeliever

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Re: What's your favourite "dice based resolution mechanic"?
« Reply #22 on: November 08, 2011, 12:32:56 PM »
I like d20 b/c the probabilities are very easy to calculate.  Although they are linear, meaning it can be swingy.  But, it's very easy to eyeball what your odds are.  d100 has the same property, and is perhaps even a bit easier in this regard. 

In the dice pools world, I happen to not like WoD's bucket of dice that I have to keep track of them all to see whether they are successes or not.  That's a complaint that applies to lots of games as well -- the probabilities are hard to track (is this risky or safe for me to attempt?) and it does seem time-consuming. 

The only one along these lines that I actually enjoy is Godlike/Wild Talent's one-roll engine.  It's a d10 dice pool, but you look for matches (i.e., three 9s, two 6s, that sort of thing).  The advantage it has is that it's not just binary, success v. failure, the numbers on the dice (referred to as the "height) mean something to the game, as do the amount of dice you have in the match (the "width").  So, there's a good reason to actually look at those dice.  It's also the only game I've ever played that has the whole declaring what you do and then actually doing it in some order where you may be interrupted mechanic that actually works. 

Offline Bard

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Re: What's your favourite "dice based resolution mechanic"?
« Reply #23 on: November 08, 2011, 02:45:50 PM »
I'm torn between XdY+Z and another system called, "reverse dice-pool."

The way reverse dice-pool works is this: You roll some number of dice (The instance I saw was with d6s); if none of the dice come up 1, you succeed. Difficulty is adjusted by adding and removing dice. If you care what, exactly, caused you to fail, you can use differently colored dice for different things. The more 1s you get, the worse the failure.

So, effectively, you're trying to roll as few dice as possible?  Hmm, I have to say from a flavor perspective, I wouldn't like that a whole lot, though I can't really comment on the mathematical aspect.

So, with your best roll (1 dice) you have a 17% of failure? O_o that really doesn't float for me. Easy rolls (based on the character skill in that field) should have a 100% rate of success, with maybe 10% chance of failure if some maluses come into play, or even less/none for real experts. (basically removing the need to roll at all for trivial stuff for well built characters, thus speeding up the game)
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Offline RobbyPants

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Re: What's your favourite "dice based resolution mechanic"?
« Reply #24 on: November 08, 2011, 03:39:11 PM »
Being raised on 2E's lovely THAC0 system, I loved the shit out of 3E's d20 system. So I have a bit of bias here.

I have fun with Betrayal at House on the Hill's xd3-x system. It's simple to understand and calculate average odds, and it still yields the occasional surprise.


I would like a system where you rolled blocks of bell-curve distributed dice - i.e. a dice pool system with a pool of blocks of 3d6s. That's very complicated to physically roll, but nowadays it's easy to use a laptop at the table.
I really like the Arcanis RPG system. It is 2d10+Attribute die+skill modifier. That levels out the bell curve a fair bit, and gives skill and talent (attribute die) roughly the same level at first with skill being more consistent and surpassing talent as you go up.
I like the idea of these too, but the only thing I don't like about them is that if you get a +1 to your roll, you have no easy way to know what that means in terms of a percentage increase of success.

On a flat d20, each +1 is a flat +5% increase (until you leave the RNG entirely). On a curved roll, the closer you are to the center with your TN, the larger increase you get with a +1, and the further out you are, the smaller the increase is. Basically, you can get to the point that if you're so good or so bad, you just don't care about a +1. Maybe that's a good thing though, if you design your RNG to stick close to the center.
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Offline veekie

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Re: What's your favourite "dice based resolution mechanic"?
« Reply #25 on: November 08, 2011, 03:52:36 PM »
Bell curved systems mostly seem to use smaller bonuses than others I think. Granted, you don't see many bell curved systems using levels either.
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Offline RobbyPants

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Re: What's your favourite "dice based resolution mechanic"?
« Reply #26 on: November 09, 2011, 09:35:23 AM »
Bell curved systems mostly seem to use smaller bonuses than others I think. Granted, you don't see many bell curved systems using levels either.
The nice thing about it is, if you control your RNG well enough, you can actually get a pretty predictable idea of what will happen on like-leveled threats. It also make it so the PCs can fight "army of mooks" easily with little danger of dying. The downside is, if they fight a BBEG much higher level, they'll find themselves missing all the time, and that sort of sucks. It might be an interesting way to balance action economy between one BBEG and four PCs, however.
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Offline Bard

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Re: What's your favourite "dice based resolution mechanic"?
« Reply #27 on: November 09, 2011, 11:43:39 AM »
that's actually a big beef I have with some Bell-type dice mechanics, since (while I like that most of the rolls are less swingy) compared to linear one it lacks the chance for HUGE successes or failures that somewhat spice the game :\
Maybe adding a odd dice that determines a "critical" type of event could help.

Mhnn... I need to script something to draw bell curves and critical chances of dice systems lol
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Offline veekie

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Re: What's your favourite "dice based resolution mechanic"?
« Reply #28 on: November 09, 2011, 12:27:17 PM »
Bell curved systems mostly seem to use smaller bonuses than others I think. Granted, you don't see many bell curved systems using levels either.
The nice thing about it is, if you control your RNG well enough, you can actually get a pretty predictable idea of what will happen on like-leveled threats. It also make it so the PCs can fight "army of mooks" easily with little danger of dying. The downside is, if they fight a BBEG much higher level, they'll find themselves missing all the time, and that sort of sucks. It might be an interesting way to balance action economy between one BBEG and four PCs, however.
Possible, but beyond a very close threshold the PCs are failing to do anything at all, and gameplay wise thats not very interesting(hitting for ping damage is somewhat better).
You can also use a gentler curve and wider spread(though most curved systems use d6s for availability). 2d10 for example, has a spread almost as good as d20 but is a bit more consistent.

Another possibility is gambit mechanics. Many of the heavily curved systems also allow you to push your modifiers further with some luck modification resource you can expend at dramatic moments like action points or willpower.
Others let you put more at stake in a conflict(like, going from wounds to partial crippling to risking death) to get bigger dice to use(like from a 2d6+X to 3d6+X(cripple) to 4d6+X(death).
In such cases, the enemy is risking defeat and imprisonment(nonfatal), while the party is gambling on permanent damage to character in exchange for the greater luck they need to put it down.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2011, 12:29:04 PM by veekie »
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Offline Shining Phoenix

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Re: What's your favourite "dice based resolution mechanic"?
« Reply #29 on: November 09, 2011, 01:54:27 PM »
So, with your best roll (1 dice) you have a 17% of failure? O_o that really doesn't float for me. Easy rolls (based on the character skill in that field) should have a 100% rate of success, with maybe 10% chance of failure if some maluses come into play, or even less/none for real experts. (basically removing the need to roll at all for trivial stuff for well built characters, thus speeding up the game)
No; the best roll is no dice: automatic success.

Task difficulty adjusts the number of dice, and a character can have a negative base dicepool size.
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Offline Mooncrow

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Re: What's your favourite "dice based resolution mechanic"?
« Reply #30 on: November 09, 2011, 02:54:07 PM »
So, with your best roll (1 dice) you have a 17% of failure? O_o that really doesn't float for me. Easy rolls (based on the character skill in that field) should have a 100% rate of success, with maybe 10% chance of failure if some maluses come into play, or even less/none for real experts. (basically removing the need to roll at all for trivial stuff for well built characters, thus speeding up the game)
No; the best roll is no dice: automatic success.

Task difficulty adjusts the number of dice, and a character can have a negative base dicepool size.

But anything that you do have a chance of failing on starts at 17% and quickly ramps up from there.  That's a pretty huge gap; I think I prefer to have my systems with better incremental control over success and failure rates.

Offline SneeR

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Re: What's your favourite "dice based resolution mechanic"?
« Reply #31 on: November 09, 2011, 03:22:48 PM »
The more dice you roll, the more centralized the results and the more pronounced the bell curve, right? So rolling 5d6 would have a more pronounced bell curve than 3 d10? Just curious.

Anyways, I have debated making a combat reolution mechanic based on Demon's Souls, where damage is at a set amount, and all defenses are only damage reduction to varying degrees. However, that game judges attacks hitting on the player's skill, being a video game, meaning the weapon you are using and the attack animation (time of wielding the weapon, how it swings or stabs, etc.) are the only variables that matter besides skill.

But such a thing I fear would devolve into the realms of thac0, with chance of hit based upon what kind of weapon you use. Big weapons take a lot of time to wield, may have a small hit area, but deal a lot of base damage... It really becomes whether you can guarantee yourself a hit with skill, or if you want to use weapons with a high base chance of hitting and put skills into other aspects of character creation...
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Offline Shining Phoenix

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Re: What's your favourite "dice based resolution mechanic"?
« Reply #32 on: November 09, 2011, 04:48:14 PM »
Another dice based resolution mechanic, especially for situations where the outcomes can't be divided into 'strictly better' or 'strictly worse': Roll and remove.

You start off rolling one die for a random outcome. You can add more dice; other people can add additional dice. Once all dice are rolled, each person who added a die beyond the first removes that many dice of their choice. You are left with one die, which is the result.

But anything that you do have a chance of failing on starts at 17% and quickly ramps up from there.  That's a pretty huge gap; I think I prefer to have my systems with better incremental control over success and failure rates.
  • What does having 5% and 10% failure chances add to the game?
  • If there is a case where you do want a failure chance greater than zero but less than ~15%, would it make more sense to make your victim roll the dice?
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Offline Mooncrow

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Re: What's your favourite "dice based resolution mechanic"?
« Reply #33 on: November 09, 2011, 04:55:52 PM »
Another dice based resolution mechanic, especially for situations where the outcomes can't be divided into 'strictly better' or 'strictly worse': Roll and remove.

You start off rolling one die for a random outcome. You can add more dice; other people can add additional dice. Once all dice are rolled, each person who added a die beyond the first removes that many dice of their choice. You are left with one die, which is the result.

But anything that you do have a chance of failing on starts at 17% and quickly ramps up from there.  That's a pretty huge gap; I think I prefer to have my systems with better incremental control over success and failure rates.
  • What does having 5% and 10% failure chances add to the game?
  • If there is a case where you do want a failure chance greater than zero but less than ~15%, would it make more sense to make your victim roll the dice?

It's not just the first increment - having two dice means the chance of failure is ~30%, 3 means ~42%, etc.  The increments are simply too large at all levels.

Offline Shining Phoenix

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Re: What's your favourite "dice based resolution mechanic"?
« Reply #34 on: November 09, 2011, 05:43:13 PM »
It's not just the first increment - having two dice means the chance of failure is ~30%, 3 means ~42%, etc.  The increments are simply too large at all levels.

~15%, ~30%, ~40%, ~50%, ~60%, ~65%...

I'm not terribly concerned about the space between those values. Sure, you could make a more complicated system (d20 pool, for example...), but I really don't think it's worth the extra effort. You kind of sort of have a point at the low (<15%) failure probabilities, but the equivalent of a single +-1 around the middle of the range on a d20 isn't something that a game actually needs.

EDIT: On second thought, a d20 reverse-die-pool is equivalent to lots of Save-or-Die attacks in a battle in D&D if you have good enough saves.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2011, 05:46:07 PM by Shining Phoenix »
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Offline brainpiercing

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Re: What's your favourite "dice based resolution mechanic"?
« Reply #35 on: November 09, 2011, 07:28:52 PM »
Being raised on 2E's lovely THAC0 system, I loved the shit out of 3E's d20 system. So I have a bit of bias here.

I have fun with Betrayal at House on the Hill's xd3-x system. It's simple to understand and calculate average odds, and it still yields the occasional surprise.


I would like a system where you rolled blocks of bell-curve distributed dice - i.e. a dice pool system with a pool of blocks of 3d6s. That's very complicated to physically roll, but nowadays it's easy to use a laptop at the table.
I like the idea of these too, but the only thing I don't like about them is that if you get a +1 to your roll, you have no easy way to know what that means in terms of a percentage increase of success.

On a flat d20, each +1 is a flat +5% increase (until you leave the RNG entirely). On a curved roll, the closer you are to the center with your TN, the larger increase you get with a +1, and the further out you are, the smaller the increase is. Basically, you can get to the point that if you're so good or so bad, you just don't care about a +1. Maybe that's a good thing though, if you design your RNG to stick close to the center.
The point is I'm wanting to use a dice pool system with stat+skill.

For instance, you have Stat 3 + Skill 3, so you roll 6 blocks of 3d6 each vs a TN determined by the difficulty of the task (via table or opposed roll). Each block that makes or exceeds the TN is a hit. Compare hits to threshold or opposing hits to determine the outcome, as usually for a DP system.

Why do I want this?
Dice-pool mechanics with only d6s are really random. Also, you can't vary the TN very much or you get into explode or pure luck territory. With 3d6 you reliably manage easy tasks, but you can vary the TN right up to 18 without exploding dice. The other nice thing is two types of mods plus thresholds: TN mods and DP mods. TN mods simulate the actual difficulty of the task (or increment task), whereas DP mods simulate stuff that affects the character and his chances - at least that's the idea.

With this I want to bring back shadowrun3s power/damage code system again: Weapon power determines the TN for damage resistance, but the damage code determines the initial damage before being staged up or down. This system is excellent for representing firearms.

Offline veekie

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Re: What's your favourite "dice based resolution mechanic"?
« Reply #36 on: November 10, 2011, 12:28:06 AM »
Quote
You start off rolling one die for a random outcome. You can add more dice; other people can add additional dice. Once all dice are rolled, each person who added a die beyond the first removes that many dice of their choice. You are left with one die, which is the result.
Seems most useful for a roll-light game, that is, you expect to roll just once per exchange, otherwise complexity shoots up.
Quote
For instance, you have Stat 3 + Skill 3, so you roll 6 blocks of 3d6 each vs a TN determined by the difficulty of the task (via table or opposed roll). Each block that makes or exceeds the TN is a hit. Compare hits to threshold or opposing hits to determine the outcome, as usually for a DP system.
Somewhat like oWoD? I think theres a big clunk factor there though. You're rolling a total of 18 dice on an average roll(3 is pretty average is most stat+skill), with 54 number additions, a third of which would be a teen number added to a single digit number, then capping it off with 6 comparisons. An optimized roll would be working with 5+5 for 30 dice, 90 additions, and 10 comparisons.

Dicepool + target number adjustment works better if your dicepool is for single dice, not groups of dice. And they're already fairly clunky to start with
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Offline brainpiercing

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Re: What's your favourite "dice based resolution mechanic"?
« Reply #37 on: November 10, 2011, 09:01:58 AM »
Somewhat like oWoD? I think theres a big clunk factor there though. You're rolling a total of 18 dice on an average roll(3 is pretty average is most stat+skill), with 54 number additions, a third of which would be a teen number added to a single digit number, then capping it off with 6 comparisons. An optimized roll would be working with 5+5 for 30 dice, 90 additions, and 10 comparisons.

Dicepool + target number adjustment works better if your dicepool is for single dice, not groups of dice. And they're already fairly clunky to start with
That's why I said it's rather useless for rolling physical dice, in fact I'm very much suggesting to use a roller script or program. I think even P&P games have to move with the time, and there is nothing wrong with rolling electronically at the table, too.

Offline veekie

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Re: What's your favourite "dice based resolution mechanic"?
« Reply #38 on: November 10, 2011, 09:05:30 AM »
Then unless its a custom or advanced roller, its still 6-10 comparisons per roll though.
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Offline brainpiercing

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Re: What's your favourite "dice based resolution mechanic"?
« Reply #39 on: November 10, 2011, 11:16:56 AM »
Then unless its a custom or advanced roller, its still 6-10 comparisons per roll though.
You roll the sum of 3d6 a few times, compare to TN. So yes, the larger the DP, the more comparisons, obviously. However, you could easily just input TN as well and have the roller compare and simply output the number of successes. This is a practical problem, that is largely identical to any dice pool mechanic.