Author Topic: [RotM] Rise of the Machines General Discussion Thread  (Read 7647 times)

Offline Garryl

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[RotM] Rise of the Machines General Discussion Thread
« on: October 25, 2012, 02:49:23 AM »
This thread is for discussion of anything related to Rise of the Machines.

Yeah, I know, there's not much to talk about yet, given that RotM is still in the concept phase. But, you know, ideas to hash out and whatnot.

Offline Nanshork

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Re: [RotM] Rise of the Machines General Discussion Thread
« Reply #1 on: April 23, 2013, 05:06:48 PM »
Have you looked at Oslecamo's mecha rules?  You might be able to pull some ideas from there.

Offline Garryl

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Re: [RotM] Rise of the Machines General Discussion Thread
« Reply #2 on: April 23, 2013, 05:21:30 PM »
I'll have to go over it again some time. I remember looking at it and seeing some things I liked and some things I didn't. Same as all the other mecha rules I've seen so far, in that regard.

Offline Nanshork

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Re: [RotM] Rise of the Machines General Discussion Thread
« Reply #3 on: April 23, 2013, 05:29:14 PM »
Fair enough.  I saw that you were working on it again and I'd just gone through Oslecamo's stuff for a PbP that I've decided against joining so I thought I'd bring it up.  He uses something similar to upgrade points.

Offline Garryl

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Re: [RotM] Rise of the Machines General Discussion Thread
« Reply #4 on: April 23, 2013, 05:39:46 PM »
That PbP's what got me thinking about this again, actually.

Offline Nanshork

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Re: [RotM] Rise of the Machines General Discussion Thread
« Reply #5 on: April 23, 2013, 05:44:55 PM »
That PbP's what got me thinking about this again, actually.

I didn't realize you were looking at that thread.   :lol

Offline Garryl

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Re: [RotM] Rise of the Machines General Discussion Thread
« Reply #6 on: April 23, 2013, 06:15:28 PM »
I look at lots of threads. I just refresh the Show unread posts since last visit page all the time. Much easier to find ways to waste my time than looking manually.

Offline sirpercival

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Re: [RotM] Rise of the Machines General Discussion Thread
« Reply #7 on: May 05, 2013, 11:35:27 AM »
I'm going to be stealing this immediately for Spelljammer.
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Offline Amechra

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Re: [RotM] Rise of the Machines General Discussion Thread
« Reply #8 on: May 05, 2013, 12:23:16 PM »
Are you removing Strength/Constitution bonuses for size? Because, quite frankly, I think that those can go the way of the dinosaur and the game will become a lot more sane.
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Offline Garryl

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Re: [RotM] Rise of the Machines General Discussion Thread
« Reply #9 on: May 05, 2013, 01:24:48 PM »
I'm going to be stealing this immediately for Spelljammer.

Go right ahead. And let me know how your spelljamming rules turn out. I'd love to have some starship rules to work with.

Are you removing Strength/Constitution bonuses for size? Because, quite frankly, I think that those can go the way of the dinosaur and the game will become a lot more sane.

Partially. It's getting toned way down for mecha, but size advancement for other creatures is outside the scope of this project. The current numbers I'm playing around with are +4 Str, +2 Con, and +1 natural armor per size category above Huge. Colossal mecha will only have a size modifier to Strength of +12 (and thus a base Strength of 26).

I can't just dump them entirely because the size modifiers are actually used for more than just pumping up stats. They're also used to even out the Strength and Constitution scores of different-sized creatures piloting the same-sized mechas (larger pilots, being stronger, will result in higher final Strength scores, but a much lesser difference than on foot).

Offline Garryl

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Re: [RotM] Rise of the Machines General Discussion Thread
« Reply #10 on: May 23, 2013, 12:27:54 AM »
I'm hammering out as much as I can in regards to scaling up for very large creatures (and very large distances). Are there any other size-related aspects of the game that should be dealt with?

At a certain point, I'll have to deal with how hit points scale with respect to damage at high size categories. +2 size means x2 base damage (which, admittedly, is not 100% of all damage), so it should also mean (whether through size scaling or through expected Con scores and HD at the levels at which creatures of certain size categories start to exist) that HP and DR/hardness also doubles.
« Last Edit: May 23, 2013, 12:30:52 AM by Garryl »

Offline Nanshork

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Re: [RotM] Rise of the Machines General Discussion Thread
« Reply #11 on: January 05, 2017, 11:31:12 AM »
So, it looks like you're working on this again?

Offline Garryl

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Re: [RotM] Rise of the Machines General Discussion Thread
« Reply #12 on: January 05, 2017, 04:36:47 PM »
I had some inspiration, so I jotted down some notes. Although I did have a significant portion of that written beforehand from previous attempts.

I'm still making progress on it. The sections I just posted are actually almost done now (for a first draft, anyways).

Offline Nanshork

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Re: [RotM] Rise of the Machines General Discussion Thread
« Reply #13 on: January 05, 2017, 04:43:20 PM »
If it gets to the point of being ready for review, let me know.

Offline Garryl

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Re: [RotM] Rise of the Machines General Discussion Thread
« Reply #14 on: January 05, 2017, 10:59:08 PM »
Well, that last post I put up essentially has all of the material I'm expecting to put into that section, I think. It's just the bit at the end that I'm not sure about (what happens to the pilot when the mecha gets knocked inert and/or destroyed). It still needs some polish, and I'm pretty sure parts of it still depend on some things and assumptions about other aspects I have in my notes elsewhere, but generally speaking it should be reviewable for the basic mechanics of mechas.

Other sections for which the draft is ready for feedback include size categories. Probably also range/distance scaling for larger size categories and alternative scaling for distance of Spot/Listen checks (both of which I'll probably suggest as recommended but optional variants).

Offline Nanshork

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Re: [RotM] Rise of the Machines General Discussion Thread
« Reply #15 on: January 06, 2017, 03:50:16 PM »
Mecha Subtype should explicitly state that it is destroyed when negative hp = destruction threshold.

Any reason to have Mechas be creatures instead of Gear?

The ability score section is a little complicated.

For feats: why not just have the mecha use the pilot's feats (if the pilot is non-proficient can't use feats), and if the mecha has feats itself they are only usable by the machine spirit?  Then maybe have some PrC/feat/whatever to let you use the mecha's feats.  Seems easiest (and less like feats are a complete waste in a mecha game).

For sizes past colossal, I'm AFB but have you looked at the existing Colossal+ sizes in Draconomicon?

Distance Scaling for Very Large Creatures feels clunky, especially when you're talking about subject vs caster size.

I never pay attention to spot and distance penalties so I don't see a problem with the adjustment but I don't know if I would spot an existing problem.


Offline Garryl

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Re: [RotM] Rise of the Machines General Discussion Thread
« Reply #16 on: January 06, 2017, 10:24:01 PM »
Mecha Subtype should explicitly state that it is destroyed when negative hp = destruction threshold.

Will do.

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Any reason to have Mechas be creatures instead of Gear?

Several reasons.
- In theory, it should make it easier to have mechas acting autonomously. Whether the mecha itself is alive and active in some form or another or is just being run by a dedicated AI or autopilot, it may well be fighting on its own without a pilot per se, in which case you can straight up use the mecha's stat block.
- I want mecha to be more than just a suit of armor that upsizes you. Fighting as mecha pilot should be distinctly different from the same character fighting on foot. Much of the time, you won't be able to use a lot of your personal abilities, relying on the capabilities of the mecha instead. Your own strengths and level should influence how well you pilot a mecha, but it shouldn't be the deciding factor.
- The mecha is fighting, not the pilot. The pilot is just piloting. That's an important distinction. If the mecha gets hit with a death effect, for example, it's the mecha that gets destroyed, not the pilot. Being a distinct creature helps keep that distinction.
- A couple of other reasons that I was thinking about over supper and unfortunately forgot. I'll edit them in or something if they come back to me.

Can mecha be done as just really fancy equipment/objects? Yes. Lots of people have done it that way. It might even be easier. It's certainly worth considering, at least. I don't think that mechas as gear quite captures the distinction I'm looking for, though.

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The ability score section is a little complicated.

It is. And that's after paring it down from its original complexity a couple of times. Still more room to reduce complexity, though.

The goal is to let the parts of your ability scores that are wholly you still matter. If you have an 18 Strength because you rolled an 18 or you put your 16 points to buy it at character creation, the mecha's effective stats should reflect that when you're piloting it. That way, the stats a mecha cares about don't become dump stats for a pilot and remain important.

The size adjustments add a significant amount of complexity on their own, I think. The goal for that is separating out the parts of Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution that just come from being very big. The mecha is already very big, so it already gets a bunch of modifiers baked into its ability scores (baked into racial modifiers) as a result of that size. Of course, those conceptual components are never called out as distinct things, so I need to identify them on the spot so they don't count double.

An 18 Str human (size Medium) piloting a Colossal mecha should add more to the mecha's Strength score than an 18 Str ogre (size Large) piloting the same Colossal mecha after normalizing for size, since the human is really really strong for a Medium creature, but the ogre is only a little above average for a Large creature. An 18 Str size Colossal creature would even be giving a penalty, since for its Colossal size it's an extremely weak creature.

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For feats: why not just have the mecha use the pilot's feats (if the pilot is non-proficient can't use feats), and if the mecha has feats itself they are only usable by the machine spirit?  Then maybe have some PrC/feat/whatever to let you use the mecha's feats.  Seems easiest (and less like feats are a complete waste in a mecha game).

Sounds good. I had feats transferring over in earlier drafts. I think I took them out of this one because I found some loopholes with double dipping on things like per-day limitations, and due to some oddities with the more magical feats that are a lot more personal and inherent than a learned skill. Thinking on it more there's also issues with racial feats and feats that the mecha itself wouldn't qualify for. I think I have some appropriate rules wording that should account for all of that, so I'll put feat sharing in once I can get it typed out.

As a side note, feat sharing to mechas means that you can pilot a mecha with a mecha. I don't think that comes up much in fiction, as the only instance of it I can think of is in The Simpsons's parody of Avatar. I wouldn't be surprised if Megas XLR or Gurren Laggan did it, too. Either way, it certainly sounds like a cool concept, in theory. It might take some adjustments or ruling so you don't get to stack things up with each layer to a ridiculous extent so that it becomes far and away the optimal play to have your larger robots just be nesting dolls.

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For sizes past colossal, I'm AFB but have you looked at the existing Colossal+ sizes in Draconomicon?

I don't have Draconomicon, so I'm not familiar with them. What's the story with Draconomicon's take on it?

The only official size category above Colossal I'm aware of is Colossal+ for epic dragons in the ELH, and that's more of a pseudo-category since, if I remember correctly, only some of the size-based parameters change, and the dragon's space, reach, and attack and AC penalties actually stay the same.

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Distance Scaling for Very Large Creatures feels clunky, especially when you're talking about subject vs caster size.

Yeah, I can probably explain that clearer. The high concept goal is to let distances scale up with the creatures using them, so that you don't need a whole new slew of spells just to deal with the larger scale that mechas will work it if you're a spellcaster casting your spells through the mecha you're piloting. The more specific intent is for scaling to apply based on the size of the most relevant creature. A Large spellcaster would make a 30-foot Solid Fog instead of 20-foot radius, because they're bigger than the norm and they're producing the effect, so the only creature that part of the effect actually cares about is the caster. The part of the fog relating to impeding movement is, in my mind, more a factor of the creature pushing its way through the Solid Fog. If you're twice the size, with twice the reach and twice the speed (and, I dunno, around 6 times the mass and volume 'cause square cube law means you have to grow less vertically to not collapse on yourself or something I've never bothered to fully understand), shouldn't you be pushing through it twice as fast, too?

When the combatants are scaled up by a factor of 10, so should their effects. The issues seem to relate to when not everyone's scaled up the same way (say, some of the combatants are only scaled up by a factor of 5). What parts of each effect should scale up based on the attacker, and what parts based on the defender? That's a pretty tricky question. I tried to sum it up there in one or two sentences, but while that might be plenty enough to remind myself of what I intended, it's obviously woefully insufficient to actually explain and define it.

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I never pay attention to spot and distance penalties so I don't see a problem with the adjustment but I don't know if I would spot an existing problem.

Well, normally it's -1 per 10 feet, but size categories are +/-4 to Hide checks per size category, so if you can't see a 4 foot tall thing hiding 1000 feet away, you can't (assuming sizes double every 2 size categories) see a 1000 foot tall thing hiding 1640 feet away. Real world logic says that something might be a little fishy about that. Also, you know, all of those numerous internet arguments about D&D rules saying you can't see the sun.

A couple of notes to myself I'm thinking of here:
- Initiative: Instead of the mecha using the pilot's initiative which includes all of the mecha's modifiers, the pilot just uses the mecha's initiative. This removes the need for the pilot's initiative to be the only thing that the mecha's modifiers are shared over to the pilot.
- Modifiers: Instead of only specific modifier types (insight, morale, etc.) being shared with the mecha, all modifiers except for those resulting from the pilot's size get shared with the mecha.
- Ability Scores: If I go with the above of letting all non-size-based modifiers carry over, ability score adjustments can simplify a little.
   Edit: Also need to filter out armor, shield, and natural armor bonuses. Probably also deflection and alchemical. I definitely need to take another look. I'm going to add in enhancement bonuses, at least, I think.
- Spot/Listen w/ Distance: Once I figure out exactly what the size category scaling rate is (double size per category or per 2 categories or what), adjust the Spot/Listen penalties by distance formula. It's currently tuned for doubling every size category (-4 per doubling of distance).
« Last Edit: January 07, 2017, 01:57:48 AM by Garryl »

Offline Nanshork

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Re: [RotM] Rise of the Machines General Discussion Thread
« Reply #17 on: January 06, 2017, 11:52:47 PM »
Those are reasonable reasons for the Mecha being a creature instead of gear.

One way to simplify the size adjustments of the ability score section would be to scrap the table about what size the pilot is and make an extra adjustment based off of the pilot size compared to the mecha size.  I'm not sure the best way to implement that (if it can be implemented well) to get what you want without making something just as complicated.

On nesting doll mechas, maybe make it so that you can only use your feats while directly within a mecha (so you can nesting doll if you want but that has the downside of not using your feats except on the mecha you are directly inside)?

Hmm, the Colossal+ rules in Draconomicon aren't as comprehensive as I thought they were, unless I'm missing something from another book they won't work for you.

Your spellcasting area adjustments sound complicated.


Offline Garryl

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Re: [RotM] Rise of the Machines General Discussion Thread
« Reply #18 on: January 07, 2017, 01:55:57 AM »
Those are reasonable reasons for the Mecha being a creature instead of gear.

One way to simplify the size adjustments of the ability score section would be to scrap the table about what size the pilot is and make an extra adjustment based off of the pilot size compared to the mecha size.  I'm not sure the best way to implement that (if it can be implemented well) to get what you want without making something just as complicated.

Nah, the mecha's size doesn't actually factor into it at all. The mecha's ability scores already implicitly have that all factored in. It's a matter of factoring it out of the pilot, normalizing their ability scores to an arbitrary, size-independent value representing how strong or fast or tough they would be relative to the norm if they were all the same size.

You'd just wind up taking the table as it is now and adding (or subtracting) it to the mecha's stats after the adjustments from the pilot's base stats. So, with the simplification to what modifiers are going around I proposed above, let's say you've got a mecha piloted by an ogre PC (Large, +10 racial Str) in a rage (+4 Str) with Bull's Strength (+4 enchantement Str) who initially rolled a 16 for Str (for a total of 34 Str after all of that). The base Str of 16 and the racial size of Large are all you'll need to look at for the pilot's adjustment. 16 - 10 = a +6 bonus, then you get -4 for the size, and finally the mecha shares the rest of the modifiers form the pilot (+10 racial, +4 rage, +4 enhancement) for a final total +20 bonus to its normal Strength score (+10 racial, +4 rage, +4 enhancement, and +2 pilot), regardless of whether the mecha is Huge or Colossal or what. The actual special part (+2) is just from the base score and size. The rest is just the same modifiers that are being applied to the pilot's ability score, but shared with the mecha.

I'd do it even simpler by saying the bonus was equal to your final ability score - 10 + the size adjustment, no worrying about removing the bonuses to calculate anything, except that would allow some things to stack the way they shouldn't. For example, if you had a +4 enhancement bonus from Bull's Strength and your mecha was also buffed, you'd be giving it an extra +4 in addition to its own +4 enhancement bonus from its own Bull's Strength.

[/quote]
On nesting doll mechas, maybe make it so that you can only use your feats while directly within a mecha (so you can nesting doll if you want but that has the downside of not using your feats except on the mecha you are directly inside)?
[/quote]

It's not just feats. Ability scores will be shared outward, too. There's also the issue of additional magic item slots, since many effects of items are of the sort that can get shared from the pilot the the piloted mecha (and thus from the mecha to the mecha its piloting). There are probably tons more issues. It's a complicated problem. I doubt I'll get close to tackling it now, but it's something to consider down the line.

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Hmm, the Colossal+ rules in Draconomicon aren't as comprehensive as I thought they were, unless I'm missing something from another book they won't work for you.

Your spellcasting area adjustments sound complicated.

It is. Fortunately, it was always going to just be a variant, albeit a recommended one.



Edit: Some thoughts about which bonus types get shared with the mecha and which don't.
- Bonuses relating to skill make sense. A skillful pilot can pilot the mecha more effectively when doing things they are skilled at. So competence and probably also dodge and enhancement bonuses are in.
- Bonuses relating to knowledge are also in, for similar reasons as above. So that's good for insight bonuses.
- Morale bonuses are kinda in the generally better at things because you're inspired or feel good about it. Logically, it's a sort of improved function that should translate. Also, inspiring speeches, hot-blooded pilots, and so on are all so heavily part of the mecha concept that it would be a sin to deny it anyways.
- Good fortune shouldn't care if the pilot is doing something himself or via a mechanical proxy. That should account for luck, sacred, and profane bonuses.
- Armor, shield, deflection, resistance, and natural armor are all personal protection things. The fact that you're wearing plate mail, or holding a shield, or have really thick skin shouldn't have any bearing on how heavy your mecha's armor plating is. They're out.
- Racial modifiers can go either way. It's a bit of a grey zone. I think, mechanically, it would work out better to allow them, and there's certainly a majority that should make sense.
- Size modifiers are removed because anything size-based is replaced with the mecha's own size modifiers for its own massive size.

Also, a reminder to myself about power levels. In theory, a level X pilot in a level-appropriate mecha should be a level X challenge. It should be mechanically reasonable for a level 20 pilot and a level 20 Warblade to fight alongside each other (or against each other), despite the fact that one is on foot and the other is in a 50 foot robot. D&D is already about exceptional folks taking on gigantic monsters, be they giants or dragons or what have you, at high levels. A piloted mecha should just be another character, except one that is as big as or bigger than the monsters instead of the other way around.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2017, 02:14:24 AM by Garryl »

Offline Nanshork

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Re: [RotM] Rise of the Machines General Discussion Thread
« Reply #19 on: January 07, 2017, 12:18:24 PM »
On the stat stacking:

I meant more like "If your mecha is one size larger than you, gain an additional +2 to Str" or whatever to get the bonuses that you want.


On Nesting Mechas:

Well just make it so that you only share anything with the mecha you're directly piloting, outward mechas don't get any bonuses from the pilot in any way.


On your other stacking suggestions:

We need to sort out the flavor of your mecha system.  Is it A) I am inside of the mecha and actively control all of it's actions as a pilot or B) I am inside of the mecha and try to tell it what to do and then it does it.