3.5 Outer Planes Analysis: feedback please?

[BeldakSerpenthelm]

Wow! Not only was that awesome, I think I actually kinda understand Acheron now. If all the "intermediate" outer planes got that kind of treatment, I doubt there would be anywhere near as many critics of their utility.

I found this signature (and the discussion referenced) on the GiantITP forums a while ago. I wasn't aware of complaints towards the design of the Outer Planes until then, but I've been going over descriptions of them and their corresponding alignments to see if I could come up with better explanations for each that the original designers apparently didn't provide.

What I wanted to do, instead of looking separately at what each plane's environment looked like vs. what each population acted like, I wanted to look at how both of those could develop naturally from what the plane fundamentally was like, and I was wondering if anybody on the forum would like to critique what I have so far. Is there anything that doesn't make as much sense as I thought it did? Is there anything I haven't considered that would make anything make even more sense? Is anything too long? Too short?

My sources for the Outer Planes specifically come primarily from ObsidianPortal and PathGuy, while my sources for the Alignments associated with each come primarily from EasyDamus (my favorite article of which is found here).

[BeldakSerpenthelm]

Alignments:

The Outer Planes in 3.5 are based on the extreme ends of the alignment system, but this is where the game gets a lot of full-fledged arguments instead of just a befuddled "what." Allegedly, the people who've been responsible for developing the alignments since the introduction of the system were worried about offending people who didn't understand that they were referring to a fictional construct (similar to the "Satanism-Suicide" scare) and would be angry at the writers for being "wrong" about real-life philosophy, so they ended up trying to describe the alignments in terms of as many of the conflicting, contradictory philosophical schools as possible that have been developed and ended up not saying anything meaningful.

This could be taken as a good thing, as people with different views on both real-world philosophy and how should it correspond to their fictional stories could each have their own examples for how to use alignment is their games differently than others do, but mostly that just makes it harder for people to run a game together if they don't agree before hand. Even more commonly - and this is the problem with putting it in the "singular" rule-book instead of emphasizing multiple possibilities - it's used as a way for people to boast about how the fictional rule-books confirm their real-life philosophies and get into arguments about people saying exactly the same thing about their conflicting world-view.

If you define the alignments differently, and therefore interpret their perfect worlds differently, then I would ask that you take that as a good thing; this is just the way I defined the system when I analyzed the Outer Planes corresponding to each:


Law-Chaos:

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Lawful: Systematic; loves the strong


Believes that very clear authority and efficient institutions are the best way to make society the way that it "should be," whether for Good or Evil, that any problems with the system should be solved exclusively from within using the system's own procedures, and that the procedures should be as comprehensive as possible so that everybody knows what's supposed to happen

Neutral (Lawful tendencies): Organized; cares about the strong more than most others do


Believes that efficient institutions are an extremely important tool, but not important in their own right, and so prefers a general chain of command - with the same respect for authority but more focus on flexibility and efficiency then on procedure and detail - to the more Systematic approach of trying to address every potential conflict ahead of time

Neutral: Average/normal; tolerates the strong about as much as the next guy does

Supports "the system" about as much as the next guy does; if he thinks that he can get away with breaking a rule that he deems unimportant enough, he might try it, but he generally tries to accommodate those in power and avoid trouble about as much as anybody else does

Neutral (Chaotic tendencies): Independent; doesn't care about the strong


Believes that the authorities aren't any better than anybody else and doesn't go out of his way to support them, but generally tries to stay out of their way instead of challenging them outright unless they feel that isn't working, as it would still be viewed as letting the system win to waste time fighting for permission to something for himself or his friends instead of just doing it without permission

Chaotic: Disruptive; hates the strong


Believes that any sufficiently formal, impersonal, bureaucratic institutions just get in the way of those who are in the right, that they should be shown enough resistance that overstepping is not viewed as being worth the effort (even if the regulations right now are currently just inconvenient instead of intolerable, as authority used to being unchallenged could still cross the line in the future), and would only want to join organizations based on personal loyalty rather than bureaucratic positioning.

Note: since this part of the alignment system causes more arguments than the Good/Evil half, I would also like to clarify what I don't mean by the Law/Chaos half: I don't believe that Lawfuls categorically plan ahead while Chaotics categorically don't plan anything, in my definitions there are Lawfuls that don't make their own plans because they feel that it's not their place as subordinates, and there are Chaotics that make brilliant plans as long as they feel their allies were involved in making them.

In my book, plans are about intelligence, not ethics; ethical Law vs. Chaos are about loyalty, whether you care exclusively about people (for good or ill) or if bureaucratic procedures and positioning is just as important. Chaotics can certainly be willing to lead others, just in a more personal, informal way that says "I'm the boss because you obey me," rather than a more Lawful "You obey me because I'm the boss."

For example: in most Batman adaptations, the Clown Prince of Crime is extremely organized and systematic in terms of making intelligent plans, and he maintains a surprisingly large army of minions, so accomplishing his Chaotic goals with methods traditionally viewed as Lawful (plans+minions) could make the Joker look more Neutral Evil than Chaotic.

However, since he demands their obedience out of fear of him personally rather than by establishing titles and codes of conduct within his gangs, and since the plans that he uses them for revolve around the idea that his personal power is more important than any regulations and that everybody else should know it, I'd peg him as a Chaotic mastermind-leader instead of saying that being a mastermind-leader ipso facto makes him more Lawful.

Good-Evil

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Good: Selfless; loves the weak


Devote themselves completely to making the world a better place for everybody, even at great personal cost

Neutral (Good tendencies): Giving; cares more about the weak than most others do


Believes that society should build up as many people as effectively as possible and puts great effort into making the world better, but are not giving as much of themselves as they could (however much more they are doing than most), possibly by investing too much more time and energy in challenging potential evil than in building definitive good

Neutral: Normal/average; tolerates the weak about as much as the other guy does


Believe that society's only duty is to ensure that enough people survive, and that it's on individuals and their personal connections whether or not they thrive (while they might certainly choose to give charity, they would not want to be told to)

Neutral (Evil tendencies): Selfish; doesn't care about the weak


Believe that they can take whatever they want as long as they aren't actively hurting anybody in the process

Evil: Destructive; hates the weak


Believe that they have the right to take anything that they can, hurt anybody that they "have to" in order to do so, and destroy anything that they cannot have

Values:

Cross-cultural psychologist Shalom Schwartz is most noted for his description of 10 primary values that he believed to be shared by the human race regardless of cultural differences. Rather than focusing on "in this and only this culture, people hold this and only this value," he worked on describing universal values for which people who preferred any combination could be found in every culture. The values identified are as follows:

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Self-Direction - Independent thought and action; choosing, creating, exploring. Associated single values are: freedom, creativity, independence, choosing one's own goals, being curious, having self-respect.

Stimulation - Excitement, novelty, and challenge in life. Associate single values are: having an exciting and varied life, being daring.

Hedonism - Pleasure and sensuous gratification for oneself. Associated single values are: experiencing pleasure and enjoying life.

Achievement - Personal success through demonstrating competence according to social standards. Associated single values are: being ambitious, influential, capable, successful, intelligence, and having self-respect.

Power - Social status and prestige, control or dominance over people and resources. Associate single values are: having social power, wealth, and authority, preserving one's own public image, and having social recognition.

Security - Safety, harmony, and stability of society, of relationships, and of self. Associate single values are: ensuring national security, reciprocation of favors, ensuring family security, having a sense of belonging, preserving the social order, being healthy and clean.

Conformity - Restraint of actions, inclinations, and impulses likely to upset or harm others and violate social expectations or norms. Associated single values are: being obedient, having self-discipline, being polite, honoring parents and elders.

Tradition - Respect, commitment, and acceptance of the customs and ideas that traditional culture or religion provide the self. Associated single values are: respecting tradition, being devout, accepting one's own portion in life, being humble, and taking life in moderation.

Benevolence - Preserving and enhancing the welfare of those with whom one is in frequent personal contact (the "in-group"). Associated single values are: being helpful, responsible, forgiving, honest loyal, and having mature love for others and true friendships.

Universalism - Understanding, appreciation, tolerance, and protection for the welfare of all people and for nature. Associated single values are: advancing equality, being one with nature, having wisdom, filling the world with beauty, advancing social justice, being broad-minded, protecting the environment, and see the world at peace.

D&D specifically, this list of values has been used with great approval for defining the alignments of 3.5 in a new way according to which values are more important to which kinds of people. For example:

• People who care about Conformity and Tradition above all else, and don't care about Universalism (respect for all others, regardless of personal differences) as much as truly Good people do, are Lawful with Good tendencies
• People care about Power and Achievement the most, superiority over others for it's own sake while even sacrificing the safety to indulge in personal pleasures as a possible benefit of superiority, are Neutral Evil

[BeldakSerpenthelm]

Good Planes:

Mount Celestia: Lawful (Systematic instead of just Organized) Good (Selfless instead of just Giving)
Those who care primarily about Benevolence, Conformity, and Tradition, secondarily about Universalism and Security

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An infinite mountain plotted into very specifically defined layers, each based around a few of the specific ways that people need to better themselves in order that they may better help the people around them, and each home to great civilizations where the people work to make each other better in a unique way according to their society's level upon the mountain.



In life these people believed that neither individuals nor society in general could help the people that needed the most without a clear, efficient structure and a disciplined, compassionate population, and they constantly pushed themselves and each other to become better through superior discipline, efficiency, and collaboration. So too in death are they challenged to climb as much of the mountain as possible to purify themselves as much as possible of the specific flaws - in specific ways - that had held them back in life from helping the people around them even more than they already were.

Bytopia: Good (Selfless instead of just Giving) with Lawful tendencies (Organized instead of completely Systematic)
Those who care primarily about Benevolence, secondarily about Conformity, Tradition, and Universalism 


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A world perhaps best resembling what the ideal Material world would look like if pain, need, and destruction were actively minimized by all, as opposed to the other Celestial Realms whose environments depend on the fact that there is already no pain, need, or destruction to worry about. This is a world where everybody wants to work as hard as possible, with as many people as possible and with as much innovation as possible, to ensure that everybody else is as well off as possible.



In life, they believed that structure and discipline were simply very important to ensuring the best for everybody, rather than all-important, that hard work was the most important thing in life while too much regulation and minutiae just made it harder to start anything. So too in death are they allowed to build a world of streamlined societies where everyone gladly works as efficiently as possible to help everybody else without becoming overly rigid.

Elysium: Neutral (Normal, average) Good (Selfless instead of just Giving)
Those who care primarily about Benevolence and Universalism, secondarily about Conformity, Tradition, and Self-direction




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Even Lawful Good types care about themselves in the sense of needing to "become better" so that they can help even more people even more effectively, lest they be unable to do something that somebody else desperately needs, and even Chaotic Good types care about themselves in the sense of needing to be one of the people creating new ideas for how people can help each other more effectively, lest anybody else not be allowed to contribute new ideas either.



Elysium functions as the natural, un-indoctrinated paradise for the people who think exclusively about their ability to help people, rather than about themselves for having that ability, and gladly lose themselves in the ecstasy of their love for the rest of the world around them.

Beastlands: Good (Selfless instead of just Giving) with Chaotic tendencies (Independent instead of completely Disruptive)
Those who care primarily about Universalism, secondarily about Benevolence and Self-direction



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Simplicity. For those who care exclusively about people, and feel that any formal, impersonal institutions to either support or to fight against only gets in the way of helping people directly, the idealized view of the natural world serves as the perfect model of compassionate simplicity in a plane where the only thing that matters is the people in it, not some procedure dictated by somebody who's not part of what's actually happening.



This is a world where anybody can help each other anytime they meet without getting slowed down by either doing what they're told instead of what works best or by challenging something potentially bad instead of directly making something definitely good.

Arborea: Chaotic (Disruptive instead of just Independent) Good (Selfless instead of just Giving)
Those who care primarily about Universalism and Self-direction, secondarily about Benevolence and Stimulation



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A wild, sensual party world for the people who always wanted to help everybody that they could, however different from themselves, and to make sure that no potential bullies - however popular, however "considerate" at the moment - would try to stop them.

These are the people who worked tirelessly to balance helping people directly though personal charity and indirectly by making sure, often at great personal risk, that no organized institutions felt comfortable taking too much from anybody or doing too much too them. However, they also viewed the conflict with oppressors merely as a chore that they did - however gladly - for the sake of the other people, rather than enjoying on it's own, and looked forward instead to a world where everybody could be as vibrant and creative as they wanted without having to worry about anybody getting hurt by bullies.



In life, they wanted people to celebrate that they are all unique instead of feeling the need to sacrifice themselves to create clones of whomever happened to be loudest or strongest at the moment, that the world is richer when it has more ways for people to build each other up instead of having fewer. So too in death do they have eternity to celebrate that they can help each other do anything they want, have anything they want, experience anything they want, and create anything they want, now that there are no bullies to worry about anymore.

[BeldakSerpenthelm]

Neutral-ish Planes:

Arcadia: Lawful (Systematic instead of just Organized) with Good tendencies (Giving instead of completely Selfless)
Those who care primarily for Conformity and Tradition, secondarily about Benevolence and Security




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A meticulously planned, mathematically precise world of harmony and community for people who believe in sacrificing freedom for the legitimate Greater Good for all people, as opposed to an imaginary "Greater Good" for justifying cruelty, who truly understand that the system exists to benefit the people as opposed to the other way around, but who go too far in regulating too much of each other's lives based on too comprehensive a definition of "Evil," not always being able to distinguish between truly "dangerous" and merely "different."



They would certainly not want to threaten "undesirables" with violence, for fear of creating a true tyranny where anybody could be victimized next, but they don't see why those different from themselves would not want to either become "better" - adapting themselves to a system that allegedly works better when everybody is the same as each other - or to go someplace else to form their own society where both groups can be out of each other's way.

These are still basically good people, and benevolence and morality are still important to them, it's just that control and appearances are even more important.



In life these legalists gave more time and energy to challenging the potential evil of disorder and disobedience than to building the definitive good of all people regardless of differences. So too in death do they stay in a "perfected" community to take care of each other far from anybody considered "excessively" different from themselves.

Ysgard: Chaotic (Disruptive instead of just Independent) with Good tendencies (Giving instead of completely Selfless)
Those who care primarily about Self-direction, secondarily about Universalism and Stimulation



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The battlefield of those who care too much about the victims of oppression, and who risk too much antagonizing bullies, to qualify as Chaotic Neutral (who challenge the powerful primarily for the sake of their friends and families, rather than strangers, and won't go so far as to put their personal safety in danger unless their loved ones are already in danger), but who get too excited about the resulting conflict and spend too much time and energy on it to qualify as perfectly Good (who - even at their most Chaotic - use conflict only as a tool against further oppression, rather than as an end in of itself, and wish that it was completely unnecessary).

These are the people who don't leave an injured person near a hornet's nest because "why should he forced me to risk myself when the hornets aren't doing anything yet" like a Chaotic Neutral (or worse, kicking the nest at the person if they would get away with it like a Chaotic Evil), they kick the hornet's nest away from the person so that even when they get angry, he is still keeping them away from the other person by making them go through him first. Now, a truly Good person's first thought would be to carry the injured person out of harm's way before doing anything to the nest specifically that could make things worse, but the fact that putting himself in harm's way to protect another was truly important to him still counts for something, even if the way he went about it was more important to him.

These are still basically good people, and helping the little guy is still important to them, it's just that fighting the big guy is even more important.



In life these rabble-rousers gave too much more to challenging the potential evil of order and oppression than to building the definitive good of the innocent people who needed more help rather than less harm. So too in death are they thrown into the greatest boxing ring in the universe, where billions and billions of like-minded competitors can beat each other senseless with whatever brutal, nasty weapons they can come up with specifically because nobody's actually getting hurt in this realm of violence without victims.

Mechanus: Lawful (Systematic instead of just Organized) Neutral (Normal, average)
Those who care primarily about Conformity, Tradition, and Security, secondarily about Benevolence and Power

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A clockwork world of those who felt that everybody owed their complete obedience and loyalty to a bureaucratic system that ensured only their basic survival in return - while fully thriving would require that they work even harder than that - and expected them to be thankful for the privilege, as allegedly the system invented people for it's own betterment as opposed to the other way around.



In life they cared only for predictability and obedience over common decency and human empathy. So too in death do they become mechanical constructs in a world where everybody else is as thoughtless towards them as they had been in life towards everybody else.

Limbo: Chaotic (Disruptive instead of just Independent) Neutral (Normal, Average)
Those who care primarily about Stimulation and Self-direction, secondarily about Universalism and Hedonism

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An artistic, exuberant madhouse molded by those who spent their lives concerned mostly about their own freedom to explore new and exciting activities, who valued true creativity over baser pleasures, who didn't want to be forced to help others but still didn't want anyone to get hurt except in self-defense, and who made sure that everybody knew that they wouldn't be repressed without a fight.



In life they wanted mostly to live in their own little worlds, reciprocating the care they got from others and resisting any attempt to be controlled. So too in death are they given an infinite space based entirely around creating absolutely anything they want with whomever they want, co-operating with people who agree with them about what would be the coolest thing to make or do and having infinite space to stay out of the way of people who disagree too strongly to stay friendly.

Acheron:Lawful (Systematic instead of just Organized) with Evil tendencies (Selfish instead of completely Destructive)
Those who care primarily about Security, secondarily about Conformity, Tradition, and Power

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The plane that started all of this in the first place.



Endless fields of battle fought by those who herded the desperate masses in life for personal benefit, building powerful institutions so that they could exploit the "resource" that is basic human life and labor.



This is not the "reward" of continuing a life of waging war for it's own sake, as those who care primarily about the destruction and violence over loyalty to a cause are probably going to Gehenna or the Gray Waste: they are not truly, Systematically Lawful as they did not want the conflict - however well structured and organized in of itself - to ultimately be made into anything, such as a tyranny where those on top will eventually not have to worry about conflict against rebellions.



Thus, favoring Systematic exploitation over pure Destruction, Acheron is for completely different people: those who had spent their lives working to build something incredibly useful to themselves, yet all but useless to those who served the machine out of desperation. The warriors and generals who go here are not the ones who waged war for the sake of waging war, but 
rather the ones who focused exclusively on how to make themselves benefit if they are already drawn into a war.

In life, these industrialists and politicians cared for their legion of minions only enough to ensure that they themselves still had a system to support themselves. So too in death are they driven by remote commanding officers whose victories are meaningless to those who have become the minions, just as their own victories in life had been meaningless to their own minions.

Pandemonium: Chaotic (Disruptive instead of just Independent) with Evil tendencies (Selfish instead of completely Destructive)
Those who care primarily about Hedonism and Stimulation, secondarily about Self-direction and Achievement.



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A network of caves pulverized by gale-force winds that toss and fling eternally those who had spent their lives consumed by - and drawing others into - the tempests of their own appetites for novel experiences and substances, never wanting to work for anything not part of one of their "games" and constantly trying to persuade those around them to become equally thoughtless towards the future of the real world in the name of more intense "games."

[BeldakSerpenthelm]

Evil Planes:

Baator: Lawful (Systematic instead of just Organized) Evil (Destructive instead of just Selfish)
Those who care primarily about Security and Power, secondarily about Conformity, Tradition, and Achievement



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Where Mount Celestia serves as the backdrop for great, righteous civilizations at every level, the pits of Baator are delineated into the most cultured, bureaucratic tyrannies imaginable, with non-devils as second-class citizens and the souls of the damned as mere resources not even elevated to slaves. Where citizens of Mount Celestia work at each level to purify themselves of the flaws that had been holding them back in life, Baator has the devil castes exploiting/tormenting the damned in the level based systematically around whichever sin the mortal had primarily relished inflicting in life.

These are the people who convinced themselves that they belonged to a superior group: one for which all members were expected to watch each other for signs of weakness/betrayal and to handle personal disputes in secret - possibly exploiting the system but never allowing outside sources to appear or be treated as more important - so as to maintain the group's united front.

In life, they convinced themselves that loyalty to their own group was the only thing that mattered, that this superior group - be it a racially-based crime syndicate or a clique within an official aristocracy - could take whatever they wanted from the unworthy, inflict whatever cruelty they felt was "necessary" to keep their victims under control, and that it should be incredibly difficult for outsiders to become true members. So too in death are they tormented by an even more efficient system where the new ruling class is even higher above the ones who are now victims and is even more difficult to join than was the one they themselves had established in life.

Gehenna: Evil (Destructive instead of just Selfish) with Lawful tendencies (Organized instead of completely Systematic)
Those who care primarily about Power, secondarily about Security and Achievement



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Violently active volcanoes and not a single square foot of ground sloping less than 45º to be endured by those who gladly joined tyrannies and crime syndicates, believing not that the system had it's own right to exist but simply that climbing through the ranks would be the most effective way for them to take for themselves, believing that surely they wouldn't fail enough to be punished as severely as they were instructed to punish others, that surely they would be able to navigate a system that looks for even the most remote sign of weakness or betrayal to protect itself from with lethal efficiency.



In life, they chose to invest their time and energy not into a world where people build each other up to make the whole world better but into an environment that wanted to kill them if they were (sometimes very creatively) deemed "unreliable." While they would not risk disrupting the system that was established, they did not truly want to build anything, merely to navigate what was already there.

So too in death are they are given a landscape of infinite mountains on which they need either to stay exactly where they are - for fear of losing grip and falling however long it takes to reach a lava flow - or to continue climbing, hoping falsely that being at the top would be any safer. In this world, they are completely dependent on each other to catch them from falling, but know perfectly well that the others don't want to for fear of losing their own grip.

Hades: Neutral (Normal, Average) Evil (Destructive instead of just Selfish)
Those who care primarily about Power and Achievement, secondarily about Hedonism and Security



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A vast emptiness that is commonly considered to be "pointless" compared to the better defined, more vibrant Planes. I'm going to take the view that the whole point of the Gray Waste is that the Gray Waste is incredibly pointless, that while there is a reason - however sickening - to be Lawful Evil or Chaotic Evil, Neutral Evil is ultimately about not having a reason.



"But the point of Neutral Evil is that you care very much about advancing yourself by any means necessary, that sounds like a very effective reason." No, that is not Evil, that is Selfish. Selfish would certainly be on the eviler side of Neutral, but merely being selfish instead of fully evil only gets you sent to Acheron, Pandemonium or the Outlands, not the Infernal Realms like Hades. You don't qualify as Evil unless you are as spiteful and destructive about what you can't have as you are miserly about what you can.

All of those going to the Evil Realms are the ones whose first is to steal, threaten and destroy so that they can have more for themselves - in one form or another - and make somebody else have less, but what makes Neutral Evils of the Grey Waste so different is what they do when that is not an option.

If the primary sin of Baator, Acheron, and Gehenna is that of Pride in one's allies, loyalty and position, and that of the Abyss, Carceri, and Pandemonium is the Lust for new pleasures and challenges no matter who gets hurt, then the primary sin of the Grey Waste of Hades would be Envy: the willingness - if taking more for the self is not an option - to take a loss and expend personal effort just to make somebody else take an even bigger loss. Lawful Evils are not taking a loss if they are the gaining control over those around the victim, and Chaotic Evils are not taking a loss if they are enjoying the means employed against the victim, but Neutral Evils are willing to destroy at no benefit, however intangible.



If all you care about is making everybody else have less than yourself, no matter how you have to do it or how they got it, then there's not a reason anymore. If Neutral Evil is all about having more than someone else, and making them have less will be easier than making yourself have more, then in a world of billions and billions of those people tearing each other down for billions and billions of years, there's not going to be anything left for anybody.



This is not Chaotic, because those at least enjoy the conflict with those they can get away with attacking for being weaker. They still add something to themselves, however intangible, in the sense of how much fun they are having becoming legitimately stronger, rather than just appearing so through lowering the basis for comparison. Lawful Evils care about advancing themselves through cruelty, Chaotic Evils care about enjoying themselves through cruelty, but Neutral Evils don't truly care about using their cruelty for either purpose, they just do it.



Pure Evil without true profit or pleasure - attempting to take and/or destroy as much as possible by alternately building what could eventually get in the way and disrupting what could've benefited them later - is ultimately pointless, and every single atom of Earth and Air and Fire and Water in the entire plane of the Gray Waste is molded from this fundamental pointlessness.

Carceri: Evil (Destructive instead of just Selfish) with Chaotic tendencies (Independent instead of completely Disruptive)
Those who care primarily about Hedonism and Achievement, secondarily about Stimulation and Power




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The only plane in the universe that functions specifically as a prison, Carceri is used as containment for those neither personally reliable enough for the tyrannies of Gehenna and Baator nor inter-personally active enough for the orgies of Pandemonium and the Abyss; those who took what they could when they could from whomever they could and didn't risk drawing attention to themselves for fear of being stopped by others who would become equally afraid of them.



In life they viewed the world around them as simply an obstacle to be avoided and navigated in order that they be able to hurt anybody they wanted anytime they wanted without getting noticed. So too in death are they kept in an infinite prison the way they pretended throughout their lives to be obstructed by already.

Abyss: Chaotic (Disruptive instead of just Independent) Evil (Destructive instead of just Selfish)
Those who care primarily about Hedonism, Stimulation, and Achievement, secondarily about Power and Self-direction



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Those who enjoyed simultaneously murdering dozens and terrifying thousands with dramatic performances of anarchic violence - forcing the survivors to clean up the mess instead of having more time to build something new - are sent to a barbaric, tumultuous, frenetic nightmare world of not just a finite number of infinitely-sized sub-planes, but an infinite again number of them, none remotely stable or consistent for even the slightest amount of time except to be more cruel and torturous then any of the levels above them.

If one does not know exactly how to get from one level to another specifically - and sometimes even then, considering the violent turbulence in the very fabric of this world - then they will never reach a level safer, as the finite number of levels above their current is absolutely meaningless in the face of the infinite number below.



In life they wanted only to swallow the world around them into their own sadistic temper and violence, rarely if ever slowing down, only pushing the boundaries of what they had already done and found boring through repetition. So too in death are they rapidly swallowed by the tortures of increasingly horrible monsters that can only get worse even if they somehow escape those previous.

[phaedrusxy]

I haven't read everything yet, but I really like what I have read so far. Excellent reinterpretation.

[veekie]

I would argue that the Chaotic planes are more Achievement oriented than the Lawful ones. Achievement is how you distinguish yourself as a distinct individual, rather than one of the crowd. On Lawful planes there are established mechanisms for recognition and power, but Chaotic ones have to seize the day.

Also, on Good planes, virtue defines strength. You are powerful because you are virtuous, by being pure of ideals and deeds, you attain the strength needed to be that pure. Evil planes are the opposite, with strength defining virtue. Might IS right.

[Unbeliever]

I like a lot of the descriptions.  But, the lingo isn't all that helpful.  Some of it works really well:  Benevolence and Tradition are nice, nuanced ways of describing the values of Mount Celestia.  They are intuitive in that they make use of the words in their common usage.  Universalism, or Giving Instead of Selfless or the distinction between Organized and Systematic are opaque.

I'm not doubting there is a subtle and rich vocabulary at work there.  But, from an RPG perspective, it's best to be able to convey ideas without forcing the table to learn yet another code language. 

Also, and I come at this mostly from the perspective of a Planescape player, the outer planes are supposed to be pretty batshit insane.  This is a place where philosophies define reality, can affect the world around them, and can lead to massive interminable wars. 

That being said, some way to distinguish Gehenna and Baator besides the window dressing is very nice.

[BeldakSerpenthelm]

I like a lot of the descriptions.  But, the lingo isn't all that helpful.  Some of it works really well:  Benevolence and Tradition are nice, nuanced ways of describing the values of Mount Celestia.  They are intuitive in that they make use of the words in their common usage.  Universalism, or Giving Instead of Selfless or the distinction between Organized and Systematic are opaque.

I'm not doubting there is a subtle and rich vocabulary at work there.  But, from an RPG perspective, it's best to be able to convey ideas without forcing the table to learn yet another code language.

Thanks for pointing that out. I'll get on that.

[phaedrusxy]

I actually like that. It's not like you have to learn and use this terminology (just like many players don't know the fluff of the outer planes right now), but it's nice to have it if you want to dig into things a bit "deeper". I wouldn't change a thing. You're never going to please everyone.

[BeldakSerpenthelm]

I actually like that. It's not like you have to learn and use this terminology (just like many players don't know the fluff of the outer planes right now), but it's nice to have it if you want to dig into things a bit "deeper". I wouldn't change a thing. You're never going to please everyone.

Thanks. And don't worry, I was clarifying, not changing, does that help? Looking at it again, I really did need to clarify more than I thought I did at first.