Author Topic: A Homebrew Arena  (Read 8943 times)

Offline Stratovarius

  • Forum Host
  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 7678
  • Arhosan Emperor
    • View Profile
A Homebrew Arena
« on: June 21, 2014, 02:10:09 PM »
One thing I'm fairly sure a lot of us homebrew designers would like is the ability to have a good, regular, combat challenge to test all of our creations, as well as a little help with optimizing the builds, figuring out perfect items, and all of that gubbins - in other words, a homebrew arena. This is certainly something I'd find handy - I'm actually planning on running a few of my homebrew classes through various WotC Adventure Sites just as an analogue for that kind of test.

Who amongst the other homebrewers out there would want something like this, and be willing to help set it up?

Offline Amechra

  • Epic Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 4560
  • Thread Necromancy a specialty
    • View Profile
Re: A Homebrew Arena
« Reply #1 on: June 21, 2014, 03:00:51 PM »
I'd love this kind of thing.

I'd love it to pieces.

I'm bad at maintaining PbPs, though.
"There is happiness for those who accept their fate, there is glory for those that defy it."

"Now that everyone's so happy, this is probably a good time to tell you I ate your parents."

Offline Stratovarius

  • Forum Host
  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 7678
  • Arhosan Emperor
    • View Profile
Re: A Homebrew Arena
« Reply #2 on: June 21, 2014, 03:07:30 PM »
I don't think it would be a PbP so much as building a series of encounters designed for each level, complete with environmental dangers, etc. That's why I was using the adventure sites, for instance, because they already existed for a given level, but should provide a decent endurance challenge.

All anyone really needs in that case is a DM to run the combat in opposition. And I think we can manage that fairly well  :D

Offline Garryl

  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • ****
  • Posts: 4503
    • View Profile
Re: A Homebrew Arena
« Reply #3 on: June 21, 2014, 04:31:10 PM »
It would be a good idea to have a few stock characters to fill out the party so you're changing as few variables at a time (that is, changing one party member instead of all 4-5 of them). If you have a bunch of standard classes that most everyone agrees serves as a good balance point and can pass the challenges together normally, you can use that as a control group and see how different things are when you switch one out for a homebrew class, say, exchanging the party's Warblade for a Totem Master or replacing the Cleric with a Medic. At the very least, you'd have some standards to compare to when doing a quick check of what sort of combat numbers and utility abilities are reasonable.

Offline Stratovarius

  • Forum Host
  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 7678
  • Arhosan Emperor
    • View Profile
Re: A Homebrew Arena
« Reply #4 on: June 21, 2014, 04:47:25 PM »
On that front, would we say... Warblade, Bard, Beguiler/Warmage? They're all roughly Tier 3 (Warmage is sometimes lower, depends on the build), and fairly well accepted as balanced medium classes. What I don't know is what the 4th (divine) class would be. CoDZilla is clearly Tier 1 and Spirit Shaman/Favoured Soul/Shugenja Tier 2, and then you have the Healer down at 5...

Offline sirpercival

  • Epic Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 10855
  • you can't escape the miles
    • View Profile
Re: A Homebrew Arena
« Reply #5 on: June 21, 2014, 05:18:29 PM »
There are no tier 3 divine casters that I'm aware of... could make an unoptimized cleric maybe? Healbot or gish?

I have so many classes... this could be fun. Haha we could run a magipunk party through it, an Ethos party....
I am the assassin of productivity

(member in good standing of the troll-feeders guild)

It's begun — my things have overgrown the previous sig.

Offline phaedrusxy

  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • ****
  • Posts: 10708
  • The iconic spambot
    • View Profile
Re: A Homebrew Arena
« Reply #6 on: June 21, 2014, 05:41:16 PM »
The pathfinder vitalist might qualify as a tier 3 healer, if you keep the cheese out of it. It would be high tier 3, though. Some of you should take a peek at it and see how you'd rank it.
I don't pee messages into the snow often , but when I do , it's in Cyrillic with Fake Viagra.  Stay frosty my friends.

Offline Stratovarius

  • Forum Host
  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 7678
  • Arhosan Emperor
    • View Profile
Re: A Homebrew Arena
« Reply #7 on: June 21, 2014, 05:46:39 PM »
The pathfinder vitalist might qualify as a tier 3 healer, if you keep the cheese out of it. It would be high tier 3, though. Some of you should take a peek at it and see how you'd rank it.

A good suggestion, but someone who has actually looked at pathfinder before should evaluate it.

There are no tier 3 divine casters that I'm aware of... could make an unoptimized cleric maybe? Healbot or gish?

I have so many classes... this could be fun. Haha we could run a magipunk party through it, an Ethos party....

Well, we shall probably need a forum for this, but once we get one, I'd be happy to run them through the Forge, at least. Need to get it all ready for my own guys, anyway.

Offline Garryl

  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • ****
  • Posts: 4503
    • View Profile
Re: A Homebrew Arena
« Reply #8 on: June 21, 2014, 06:12:57 PM »
There are no tier 3 divine casters that I'm aware of... could make an unoptimized cleric maybe? Healbot or gish?

You could probably use a Core only Cleric the way it was intended as a stand-in for the Tier 3 primary support caster (no DMM, much smaller grab bag of spells for every conceivable situation, no gishing it up with tons buffs). It's the iconic class for the role, and taking away the great options while focusing on the more average ones should be more than enough for it to play like a Tier 3, which is probably sufficient.

Quote
I have so many classes... this could be fun. Haha we could run a magipunk party through it, an Ethos party....

I'd love to see those classes that are designed to work together for complete parties running through it. Seeing how a wholly Magipunk or Arhosa party works in practice would be great, as those are designed for their classes to be used without the standard D&D classes around.

Offline sirpercival

  • Epic Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 10855
  • you can't escape the miles
    • View Profile
Re: A Homebrew Arena
« Reply #9 on: June 21, 2014, 06:49:58 PM »
There are no tier 3 divine casters that I'm aware of... could make an unoptimized cleric maybe? Healbot or gish?

You could probably use a Core only Cleric the way it was intended as a stand-in for the Tier 3 primary support caster (no DMM, much smaller grab bag of spells for every conceivable situation, no gishing it up with tons buffs). It's the iconic class for the role, and taking away the great options while focusing on the more average ones should be more than enough for it to play like a Tier 3, which is probably sufficient.

Quote
I have so many classes... this could be fun. Haha we could run a magipunk party through it, an Ethos party....

I'd love to see those classes that are designed to work together for complete parties running through it. Seeing how a wholly Magipunk or Arhosa party works in practice would be great, as those are designed for their classes to be used without the standard D&D classes around.
Does this mean I need to write a divine caster for Ethos?  :pout
I am the assassin of productivity

(member in good standing of the troll-feeders guild)

It's begun — my things have overgrown the previous sig.

Offline Stratovarius

  • Forum Host
  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 7678
  • Arhosan Emperor
    • View Profile
Re: A Homebrew Arena
« Reply #10 on: June 21, 2014, 07:07:29 PM »
Does this mean I need to write a divine caster for Ethos?  :pout

Either that, or just use the nearest equivalent. :P

There are no tier 3 divine casters that I'm aware of... could make an unoptimized cleric maybe? Healbot or gish?

You could probably use a Core only Cleric the way it was intended as a stand-in for the Tier 3 primary support caster (no DMM, much smaller grab bag of spells for every conceivable situation, no gishing it up with tons buffs). It's the iconic class for the role, and taking away the great options while focusing on the more average ones should be more than enough for it to play like a Tier 3, which is probably sufficient.

Right, so that's the party more or less sorted. Who wants to build the default characters, and at what level?

Quote
Quote
I have so many classes... this could be fun. Haha we could run a magipunk party through it, an Ethos party....

I'd love to see those classes that are designed to work together for complete parties running through it. Seeing how a wholly Magipunk or Arhosa party works in practice would be great, as those are designed for their classes to be used without the standard D&D classes around.


Arhosa would be Ecclesiast, Arcanist, Gallant, and then either Savage, Totem Master, or Champion. Any preferences as to which one of the three beatsticks gets the role?

Offline sirpercival

  • Epic Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 10855
  • you can't escape the miles
    • View Profile
Re: A Homebrew Arena
« Reply #11 on: June 21, 2014, 08:00:29 PM »
Let's see... Magipunk would be:

Beatstick: Grunt or Domeskipper or Zen Fundamentalist or Morphling or Psykin
Blaster: Mentalist or Crystal Mage or Planeswalker or Holomancer
Support Caster: Powerbard or Medic or Magitechnician
Skillmonkey: Synthevolver or DivHead or Dodger

A few of those could fit in more than one category (I'm looking at you, Synthevolver and Planeswalker).

Garryl, whaddya think?
I am the assassin of productivity

(member in good standing of the troll-feeders guild)

It's begun — my things have overgrown the previous sig.

Offline Stratovarius

  • Forum Host
  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 7678
  • Arhosan Emperor
    • View Profile
Re: A Homebrew Arena
« Reply #12 on: June 21, 2014, 08:04:40 PM »
I don't think you have enough classes there, Percy  :P

Offline sirpercival

  • Epic Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 10855
  • you can't escape the miles
    • View Profile
Re: A Homebrew Arena
« Reply #13 on: June 21, 2014, 08:24:17 PM »
I don't think you have enough classes there, Percy  :P
Granted that's my largest project, but it's far from everything...  :smirk

Also I dunno what I would do with the prestige classes.  :bigeyes
I am the assassin of productivity

(member in good standing of the troll-feeders guild)

It's begun — my things have overgrown the previous sig.

Offline Garryl

  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • ****
  • Posts: 4503
    • View Profile
Re: A Homebrew Arena
« Reply #14 on: June 21, 2014, 08:32:01 PM »
There are no tier 3 divine casters that I'm aware of... could make an unoptimized cleric maybe? Healbot or gish?

You could probably use a Core only Cleric the way it was intended as a stand-in for the Tier 3 primary support caster (no DMM, much smaller grab bag of spells for every conceivable situation, no gishing it up with tons buffs). It's the iconic class for the role, and taking away the great options while focusing on the more average ones should be more than enough for it to play like a Tier 3, which is probably sufficient.

Right, so that's the party more or less sorted. Who wants to build the default characters, and at what level?

A few levels would be good. Levels 3, 6, 10, and 15 should be a decent spread, although everyone has their own preferred level they often play at. Lower levels will probably see more testing because they're easier to build and most games seem to start between 1st and 7th level.

We talking about Warblade, Bard, Warmage, Beguiler, and PAI Core Cleric, right?

Let's see... Magipunk would be:

Beatstick: Grunt or Domeskipper or Zen Fundamentalist or Morphling or Psykin
Blaster: Mentalist or Crystal Mage or Planeswalker or Holomancer
Support Caster: Powerbard or Medic or Magitechnician
Skillmonkey: Synthevolver or DivHead or Dodger

A few of those could fit in more than one category (I'm looking at you, Synthevolver and Planeswalker).

Garryl, whaddya think?

It's been a while since I thought about Magipunk. Synthevolver definitely can do both beatstick and skillmonkey. Crystal Mage has a wide enough geode selection to do support caster as well, and Magitechnician can certainly blast away or go skillmonkey with items and weird science-emulated spells. Planeswalker has enough options to fill any of the roles, although I didn't see much support in a quick perusal for what I commonly view as the skillmonkey role.

A lot of the classes can also fill in as a backup character for one or more of the roles, where 2+ characters pool their skills to do the job. I need to recheck the spell list, but I think DivHead can do a decent job as a support caster on top of the standard jobs expected of a skillmonkey. Domeskipper is about as good a skillmonkey as a Ranger.

Offline sirpercival

  • Epic Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 10855
  • you can't escape the miles
    • View Profile
Re: A Homebrew Arena
« Reply #15 on: June 21, 2014, 08:41:43 PM »
I agree with your analysis. I was, however, asking what you thought would be a good 4-party for this arena. :)
I am the assassin of productivity

(member in good standing of the troll-feeders guild)

It's begun — my things have overgrown the previous sig.

Offline Stratovarius

  • Forum Host
  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 7678
  • Arhosan Emperor
    • View Profile
Re: A Homebrew Arena
« Reply #16 on: June 21, 2014, 08:44:43 PM »
A few levels would be good. Levels 3, 6, 10, and 15 should be a decent spread, although everyone has their own preferred level they often play at. Lower levels will probably see more testing because they're easier to build and most games seem to start between 1st and 7th level.

We talking about Warblade, Bard, Warmage, Beguiler, and PAI Core Cleric, right?

Warmage and Beguiler swapping out for one another, probably. Any preferences for one or the other?

Do we want to have a L1 run as well, or is that too dependent on the dice?

I don't think you have enough classes there, Percy  :P
Granted that's my largest project, but it's far from everything...  :smirk

Also I dunno what I would do with the prestige classes.  :bigeyes

Skip the prestige classes. I know I've got 45-50 base classes, and you've probably got even more. That's enough testy for a lifetime.

Offline phaedrusxy

  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • ****
  • Posts: 10708
  • The iconic spambot
    • View Profile
Re: A Homebrew Arena
« Reply #17 on: June 21, 2014, 08:45:20 PM »
I would love to see mind pirate tried out as skills/support. I suspect it's a decent tier 3, but fear it might be a tad strong against things vulnerable to neg. levels.
I don't pee messages into the snow often , but when I do , it's in Cyrillic with Fake Viagra.  Stay frosty my friends.

Offline UserShadow7989

  • Lurker
  • *
  • Posts: 11
  • I have no idea what I'm doing
    • View Profile
Re: A Homebrew Arena
« Reply #18 on: June 21, 2014, 08:48:03 PM »
On that front, would we say... Warblade, Bard, Beguiler/Warmage? They're all roughly Tier 3 (Warmage is sometimes lower, depends on the build), and fairly well accepted as balanced medium classes. What I don't know is what the 4th (divine) class would be. CoDZilla is clearly Tier 1 and Spirit Shaman/Favoured Soul/Shugenja Tier 2, and then you have the Healer down at 5...

I don't think that covering each power source (martial/arcane/divine/etc) should be the goal for the control group, so much as party role. Beatstick/Meatshield, Crowd Control, Support/Buffer, Skill Monkey, and possibly a Generalist 5th wheel.

Warblade, Beguiler, Bard, and Factotum cover the first four roles well if you don't mind some minor overlap between Beguiler/Bard. If you want to include tier 4 classes, Barbarian, Warmage, Dragon Shaman and Rogue, fit the bill for each respective role.

Thinking on it, should there be more than one control group, if only for the sake of weeding out obstacles that are a bit oddball and end up easy for one group but difficult for another of the same tier? It might also be a good idea to test things twice, once with 'ideal' conditions (32 point buy, 2 flaws, all books) and once with non-ideal conditions (26 point buy, no flaws, limited books) to make sure the class doesn't experience an especially jarring jump or drop in effectiveness under different games (at least no more than normal).

Offline Stratovarius

  • Forum Host
  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 7678
  • Arhosan Emperor
    • View Profile
Re: A Homebrew Arena
« Reply #19 on: June 21, 2014, 08:59:30 PM »
So, given I've got a fair amount of AMS with 3 class structures (Ritual, Necromantic, PPF), any suggestions for fill-ins for the 4th class in each case?

Ritualist, Ritual Warrior, Martyr would need a skill monkey (roughly).
PPF could be Historian, Historian, Chrono, Echo, since the Historian can double or even triple up.
Overlord, Necromancer, Overlord is already a 4 person party, or even a 5 person, but should probably have one more just because. Skill monkey is decidedly missing.

And as a random side note, having Jack and Cokes with a 2L bottle of Jack makes one feel rather like a drunkard, even when only having one or two.

On that front, would we say... Warblade, Bard, Beguiler/Warmage? They're all roughly Tier 3 (Warmage is sometimes lower, depends on the build), and fairly well accepted as balanced medium classes. What I don't know is what the 4th (divine) class would be. CoDZilla is clearly Tier 1 and Spirit Shaman/Favoured Soul/Shugenja Tier 2, and then you have the Healer down at 5...

I don't think that covering each power source (martial/arcane/divine/etc) should be the goal for the control group, so much as party role. Beatstick/Meatshield, Crowd Control, Support/Buffer, Skill Monkey, and possibly a Generalist 5th wheel.

Warblade, Beguiler, Bard, and Factotum cover the first four roles well if you don't mind some minor overlap between Beguiler/Bard. If you want to include tier 4 classes, Barbarian, Warmage, Dragon Shaman and Rogue, fit the bill for each respective role.

Thinking on it, should there be more than one control group, if only for the sake of weeding out obstacles that are a bit oddball and end up easy for one group but difficult for another of the same tier? It might also be a good idea to test things twice, once with 'ideal' conditions (32 point buy, 2 flaws, all books) and once with non-ideal conditions (26 point buy, no flaws, limited books) to make sure the class doesn't experience an especially jarring jump or drop in effectiveness under different games (at least no more than normal).

I think the problem with running everything with 2-4 groups (Tier 3 vs Tier 4, 32pb vs 26pb) is just the amount of time required before we even get to running homebrew classes through the arena. Especially with 5 or 6 different attempts required per group.

My personal preference (which I always run my games with) is 32pb, no flaws, but like many homebrewers, I'm doing this at least partially because I think the WotC classes & material are usually broken in various ways.

The group suggestion works fine for me, I just don't know Factotum that well, so I'd need someone else to run that class, at least, through the arena. Although I'd prefer to stick with 4 people in the party, since it is what D&D always says it's aimed at.