Author Topic: Necromantic Index & General Discussion  (Read 32346 times)

Offline Garryl

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Re: Necromantic General Discussion
« Reply #40 on: June 07, 2014, 10:52:00 AM »
I have a couple of quick questions about necromantic companions.

Companions scale using your ECL, right? So that means you get a fully powered companion whether you take 20 levels of a necromantic class or just 1, right?

If you take levels in multiple necromantic classes, do the number of companion you get for each of them stack, or do you just use the highest number of companions any one class offers? If it's the latter, how do you select which companions you can choose (different classes have different access to veins, and consequently different companions available)?

Necromantic companions can take any class once they've finished their companions class, right? So is there anything preventing them from taking levels of necromantic classes and having necromantic companions of their own?

Offline Stratovarius

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Re: Necromantic General Discussion
« Reply #41 on: June 07, 2014, 11:27:22 AM »
Currently yes. Which is a mistake on my part, since it should really be "levels in a companion granting class" or something similar. When I get back from vacation, I'll revise the rules on that score.

Haven't really thought about it, although what they should do is stack for purposes of level, but not for purposes of number of minions. In which case they should just use the highest number granted (ie, Overlord).

Right now they can, although I should change that so they can take the classes, but do not get any minions (companions, thralls, cohorts, etc).

Offline VennDygrem

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Re: Necromantic General Discussion
« Reply #42 on: June 08, 2014, 06:34:05 PM »
How is character generation done for Necromantic Companions? Are they handled like PC's, or do they, for instance, get a Stat array like most cohorts and NPC's are usually created with?

Offline Stratovarius

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Re: Necromantic General Discussion
« Reply #43 on: June 09, 2014, 01:20:26 AM »
Use the normal Cohort array - it's what they're based off of. For now, anywhere something isn't described, default to normal cohort rules.

There's a few things with them I know I need to clear up, and will do when I get home.

Offline Stratovarius

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Re: Necromantic General Discussion
« Reply #44 on: June 10, 2014, 04:22:11 AM »
Cleared up the Necromantic Companion section of the rules. Hopefully that makes things a little easier to understand and use now. And it deals with MCing.

Offline Garryl

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Re: Necromantic General Discussion
« Reply #45 on: June 10, 2014, 12:46:59 PM »
The new way that the number of necromantic companions works seems a little off to me. Since it's based on the highest level class only, you can actually lose companions by going up in level (ex: Overlord 6/Necromant 6 has 2 10th level minions, but adding 1 more levels of Necromant would drop that to 1 minion at 11th level). I'd like to see some way for the extra companions to stick around but just not progress as fast or something so that they don't just suddenly disappear. Something like you get a number of cohorts equal to the max grants by any necromantic class, but levels in a necromantic class only add their level to those in other classes when determining companion level for a number of companions equal the amount granted by that class (and optionally, adding 1/2 their level for any companions beyond that). For example, an Overlord 6/Necromant 2 would have one 6th level companion and one 4th level companion (or 6th + 5th). An Overlord 6/Necromant 10 would have one at 14th level and one at 4th level (or 14th + 9th), instead of just a single cohort at 14th level. You may or may not also want to add that 1/2 progression to companion level for non-necromantic classes, too (ex: so a Vivisector 5/Fighter 4 would have a 5rd level companion instead of 3rd).

Offline Stratovarius

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Re: Necromantic General Discussion
« Reply #46 on: June 16, 2014, 09:43:41 AM »
So, finally back from vacation, which means I can start giving this system a poke again.  :D

On the subject of multiclassing, given that low level companions are mostly restricted to out of combat uses, I'm not sure it makes much in the way of a practical difference. And at the moment it's like joining a Sorcerer and a Wizard together, which only works if you have the Ultimate Magus class there to assist, so I'm not really too worried about it, since it's a situation that will almost never come up (how many times do people grab two casters that overlap, like an Incarnate/Totemist combo?).

Next on the list is finishing the Necromant, since there's a decent amount of material there, but the flavour is off from the mechanics.

Offline Stratovarius

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Re: Necromantic General Discussion
« Reply #47 on: June 16, 2014, 02:19:00 PM »
Just rebuilt the Necromant into an entirely different class. Still have a ways to go on developing a lot of the signature abilities though.

Venn, I know that means a rebuild of your character. Feel free to yell at me as much as you.  :bigeyes

Offline VennDygrem

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Re: Necromantic General Discussion
« Reply #48 on: June 16, 2014, 06:11:17 PM »
So far the only immediate change to my character is the loss of the first Spiritwalker ability. It's nice not being entirely bound to just the spirit vien and have to focus on that, even though I probably still will, though I've got to say, Gravebond is so situational that it's almost silly. Now without the Spirit Walker ability, I feel even more useless. That ability at least gave me some utility in using the Companion as a scout/short-range,visible scrying beacon. Gravebond's only really useful if you do even a small amount of your fighting in a graveyard, or if you go out of your way to find a graveyard in each town you visit so you can buff your companion, other minions, or allies every week. Even then, most buffs I'm seeing that don't simply add bonus damage tend to add static bonuses or other numerically arbitrary abilities. So, the major boon of the class feature is in direct damage Necros. It could be useful if you're making an NPC Necromant who lures the players into his Graveyard lair, but most players will never see any direct benefit from the class feature, except from once or twice in the adventure, maybe.

Sorry if I sound harsh or particularly upset, but you did invite my criticism. :P
Everything else actually fits the idea of the class being the caster archetype a lot better, and Vein Bound is likely to improve upon things as well, but so far the above is my major, immediate gripe.  :hide

Offline Stratovarius

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Re: Necromantic General Discussion
« Reply #49 on: June 16, 2014, 06:53:25 PM »
Well, the problem with the Necromant (and with the Overlord too) is that they are effectively two characters at first level. Admittedly, the Necromantic Companion isn't quite as good as a normal PC, but it's a fair bit stronger than most 1st level class features. Which results in giving the main class a strong and effective class feature at 1st level meaning that it's barely a level 1 character any more. Especially as a few of the companions aren't very balanced (hello, Angel of Decay and your 1d10 claws), which is a problem that needs fixing. It's mostly the companions based on high CR brutes that are the problem, since they get most of their natural attacks at a low level. Currently, Angel of Decay, Atropal Scion, Boneyard, and Wheep are first up on the fix list, since a level in those classes would shred most low CR encounters.

Gravebond does need a boost of some kind - the easiest is probably a +1 bonus to necromant level, and have it apply always, rather than only when in the boundaries of an area.

Is there a preference for which of the Vein Bounds I finish first?

Offline VennDygrem

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Re: Necromantic General Discussion
« Reply #50 on: June 16, 2014, 09:40:29 PM »
Preference will fall mainly on Spirit and Curses, which I have as my Major veins right now. ;)

My problem isn't so much losing something that's powerful, it's about losing utility. The best classes mix power with utility, in my experience. Is there some way that Gravebond could grant something that's useful outside of combat? For what it's worth, though the Necromant has its Necros and its Necromantic Companion even at first level, both are fairly limited in use right away and are almost entirely skewed toward in-combat usefulness. Having something, anything, that is useful outside of battle would be indispensable. Battle isn't the only place characters find themselves in RPGs, and a Necromant would, I imagine, want to avoid battle if possible. Probably too busy studying lost and forbidden secrets of Necromantic lore, or hiding their studies from society.

Offline Stratovarius

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Re: Necromantic General Discussion
« Reply #51 on: June 16, 2014, 09:59:25 PM »
Out of Combat utility could be provided via class abilities Speak with Dead, or some kind of undead knowledge feature gained from interrogating the spirits of the dead that it deals with. Might also have some ability that lets him cross over into the realm of the dead for a while... but that depends on how I do the cosmology (at least a little), and that's more campaign setting material than I want to deal with right away. Never ending, that is.

One thing on that front to remember, though, is that classes in this system (or at least the Necromant and Overlord) aren't really traditional fantasy necromancers, hiding in grave sites, but rather are Priests of Rathma (better known as the Diablo II Necro), so as a class they're built on a very combat oriented ideal. And they're built to get as far away from the annoyingly bad D&D necromancy as possible. Why yes, I would like to play the crippled Mystic Theurge known as a True Necromancer :bash

Offline VennDygrem

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Re: Necromantic General Discussion
« Reply #52 on: June 16, 2014, 10:30:40 PM »
If that's the case, then they need some ability to survive in combat. Having a powerful minion and some week-long buffs on your allies isn't gonna do squat if you get squashed. :)

Offline Stratovarius

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Re: Necromantic General Discussion
« Reply #53 on: June 17, 2014, 06:31:37 AM »
There's a decent amount of buffs that apply to the Necromant as well as to his allies, especially in the Flesh vein. As is always the case, classes get changed after they first encounter the enemy (hello, Chronomancer).

I'm also thinking I might introduce a Death Knight ACF for the Necromant, much as I did Time's Warden for the Chronomancer. Also debating something like this:

Let Death Rain Down
There are moments when the Necromant needs to be more proactive in his interaction with the world, rather than relying upon his necromantic minions to protect and succor him. To that end, he moves beyond their cloying embrace, focusing himself entirely on the utilization of his death-granted magics.

The Necromant loses his necromantic companion, Dark Ritual, and both of his Minor Veins. In return, he gains a third Major Vein, and doubles the number of necros known and grave tokens per week at each level.

As a side note, I'm looking up at this giant pile of material that needs to be completed, and almost getting ready to stick my head in the sand and wish it all away. There's so much to do. Blah. :banghead

Offline Stratovarius

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Re: Necromantic General Discussion
« Reply #54 on: June 17, 2014, 07:15:33 AM »
And here's the final set of ACFs for the Necromant.

Although I'm debating whether the heavy melee variants might be better off as a separate class. We shall see.

Offline Stratovarius

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Re: Necromantic General Discussion
« Reply #55 on: June 17, 2014, 02:35:52 PM »
Preference will fall mainly on Spirit and Curses, which I have as my Major veins right now. ;)

Curses is done. Spirit is done. Flesh is done. Bone is up next.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2014, 05:22:25 PM by Stratovarius »

Offline Stratovarius

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Re: Necromantic General Discussion
« Reply #56 on: June 19, 2014, 07:52:07 PM »
Bone abilities for the Necromant are now done. Poison will have to wait until I do that vein. I also need to finish the Bone vein.

Whispers of the Dead next.

Offline Stratovarius

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Re: Necromantic General Discussion
« Reply #57 on: June 19, 2014, 08:34:44 PM »
At long last, the Necromant is done (aside from a few minor items). And it should have some flavour abilities that can be used everywhere.

Offline Stratovarius

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Re: Necromantic General Discussion
« Reply #58 on: June 19, 2014, 08:45:28 PM »
And there's the first prestige class of the system up, built on the remains of the Necromant's old class features.

Offline Stratovarius

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Re: Necromantic General Discussion
« Reply #59 on: June 19, 2014, 09:20:02 PM »
Make that two, although the Ossified Warrior is supposed to be entered at level 4 and run until 8, more or less. So it's a fun easy one for a low level campaign that a fighter or similar can snag. Or a companion wanting more brute force.