Min/Max Boards

Gaming Discussion => D&D 3.5 and Pathfinder => You Break it You Buy it => Topic started by: nijineko on November 30, 2017, 10:00:21 PM

Title: Breaking the Dungeon
Post by: nijineko on November 30, 2017, 10:00:21 PM
With the glut of chinese, japanese, and korean light novels and comics being translated these days, more and more stories about main characters who get reincarnated as a dungeon or are otherwise somehow put in charge of one have become more common.

Turns out you can actually replicate this in D&D pretty much using straight canon and very minor tweaking.

Per the DMG section on Intelligent items: "intelligent items are treated as constructs"
Per the table in the same section: gives various costs to enchant an item with intelligence.
Per the Stronghold Builder's Guidebook: a stronghold space is a unit of measurement of a cottage, tower, castle, keep, dungeon, and more, approximately 20'x20'x10'.
Per the SBG on Wondrous Architecture: an item which can take up (fountain, statue, etc) or even be an entire stronghold space (a closet or room or even a hall).
Per the SBG if you want an magical effect to take up more than one space (for really big rooms, halls, or even the entire structure) you simply pay the listed cost for the effect times the number of spaces you want the effect to affect.

Ergo, you can enchant rooms to be intelligent.
Ergo, you can enchant your entire dungeon to be intelligent.
Ergo, once your room and/or dungeon is intelligent, it is now officially a construct.

Per the MM1 and Savage Species, creatures need to have an INT of 3 or more in order to take class levels instead of HD when advancing.
Per the MM1 and Savage Species creatures can take either HD for advancement, or levels for advancement, and according to the SS, you can also take templates for advancement when leveling up.

So not only is your dungeon an intelligent construct, it can take levels, gain construct HD, gain feats (leadership for minions, landlord for bonus funds every level to expand), gain skills, and of course, summon monsters and manifest powers. (or spells, if you really insist... sigh.)

I suggest levels in Spell to Power Erudite, Dungeon Lord, and maybe psi-Artificer.

It's not so much that this concept itself is inherently broken, but rather, once you've gotten this far, it becomes a foundation whereupon the potential for seriously advanced breakage becomes swiftly apparent.

In any case, I think I know where my next bag of devouring is going to lead to....
Title: Re: Breaking the Dungeon
Post by: Jackinthegreen on November 30, 2017, 10:51:13 PM
I'm suddenly thinking of that one giant walking construct dungeon in Final Fantasy 4.
Title: Re: Breaking the Dungeon
Post by: SorO_Lost on December 01, 2017, 10:22:57 AM
You don't really need to dig around too much. Core's Animate Object allows you to animate Colossal sized objects which allows you to effectively animate entire houses. There just isn't much in the rules to handle exploring the inside of a living creature Fantastic Voyage style.

If you like listening to people talk, Spencer of the Harmontown podcast ran a dungeoncrawl through a multiversal Infinifish (http://www.harmontown.com/category/podcasts/page/28/) which you may find helpful.
Title: Re: Breaking the Dungeon
Post by: nijineko on December 01, 2017, 08:14:33 PM
I'm suddenly thinking of that one giant walking construct dungeon in Final Fantasy 4.

You don't really need to dig around too much. Core's Animate Object allows you to animate Colossal sized objects which allows you to effectively animate entire houses. There just isn't much in the rules to handle exploring the inside of a living creature Fantastic Voyage style.

If you like listening to people talk, Spencer of the Harmontown podcast ran a dungeoncrawl through a multiversal Infinifish (http://www.harmontown.com/category/podcasts/page/28/) which you may find helpful.

Hmmm, so in other words a size titanic (found in savage species, iirc) StP Erudite Dungeon Lord dungeon complex wandering around animating and using Leadership on the structures and buildings in every village, town, and city it passes to attack the locals... sounds like a rocking epic adventure... ^^
Title: Re: Breaking the Dungeon
Post by: nijineko on December 02, 2017, 01:04:27 PM
https://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/110628/can-an-intelligent-item-multiclass-outside-of-the-intelligent-item-class/110635#110635

https://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/110493/how-can-i-have-a-sentient-dungeon-or-race-thereof-in-my-story/110561#110561

Here are the relevant links as to why I posted this....
Title: Re: Breaking the Dungeon
Post by: altpersona on December 02, 2017, 02:19:56 PM
so, an intelligent 'cave' that cant really adventure because its attached to a mountain... but tends to kill the creatures that find it... thus gaining xp and becoming more deadly. nice
Title: Re: Breaking the Dungeon
Post by: awaken_D_M_golem on December 02, 2017, 03:24:32 PM
How many HD does the Dungeon have, right before Awakening?


This is basically the Planar Vanguard PrC capstone, just better
and 10+ levels earlier (ho hum).
 :clap
Title: Re: Breaking the Dungeon
Post by: Nytemare3701 on December 02, 2017, 05:16:06 PM
so, an intelligent 'cave' that cant really adventure because its attached to a mountain... but tends to kill the creatures that find it... thus gaining xp and becoming more deadly. nice

Any structure can be a dungeon.

They told me I could be anything I wanted, so I became a boat.
Title: Re: Breaking the Dungeon
Post by: altpersona on December 02, 2017, 06:14:06 PM
so, an intelligent 'cave' that cant really adventure because its attached to a mountain... but tends to kill the creatures that find it... thus gaining xp and becoming more deadly. nice

Any structure can be a dungeon.

They told me I could be anything I wanted, so I became a boat.

We're gonna need a bigger shark
Title: Re: Breaking the Dungeon
Post by: altpersona on December 02, 2017, 06:15:05 PM
the shark is a druid, the boat is the monster attacking the coast.
Title: Re: Breaking the Dungeon
Post by: nijineko on December 03, 2017, 05:01:04 PM
the shark is a druid, the boat is the monster attacking the coast.

a Psion Shark so it can shoot Energy Ray... Laser sharks anyone?

I have a Folding Boat (Pinnance in Stormwrack) which is conveniently just the size of a single Stronghold Space, enchanted with multiple Magnificent Mansions fireproof, teleports, planeshifts, regenerates itself, and has a huge number of other effects I'll skip unless anyone wants details.

It also occurs to me that with this trick one could duplicate that giant fortress from the movie Krull, should there be any fans.
Title: Re: Breaking the Dungeon
Post by: altpersona on December 03, 2017, 05:14:28 PM
yup lasers for the win
Title: Re: Breaking the Dungeon
Post by: phaedrusxy on December 03, 2017, 07:44:22 PM
I played something like this (http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=813.msg82635#msg82635) in a game on here once... except I was an airship, instead of an immobile dungeon.
Title: Re: Breaking the Dungeon
Post by: KellKheraptis on December 09, 2017, 12:47:31 AM
Do you want Trypticon?  Because this is how you get Trypticon...

Seriously though, having this as a centerpiece of a truly monster dungeon would be absolutely amazing if you then had it transform into humanoid shape for the final series of battles a la Unicron.  Make it big enough and see about having Dungeon Lord affecting chunks of the planet its on :D
Title: Re: Breaking the Dungeon
Post by: awaken_D_M_golem on December 09, 2017, 02:42:01 PM
hmm ...


At the end of 2e , Orcus dies and his body is something ginormous out on the astral.
Maybe what he (it?) did was make a dungeon that looked like him
plus do this trick to it + Mind Switch (or somethin' like that).
Title: Re: Breaking the Dungeon
Post by: altpersona on December 09, 2017, 05:07:33 PM
now i thinking a carriage instead of a boat. ruby red 'eye' in front, w. high charisma cohort 'driver' probably a bard 'knight' who hums their theme song.
Title: Re: Breaking the Dungeon
Post by: nijineko on December 09, 2017, 07:35:36 PM
now i thinking a carriage instead of a boat. ruby red 'eye' in front, w. high charisma cohort 'driver' probably a bard 'knight' who hums their theme song.

You mean humming his own theme song like this? (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=km40jvV5lhM) ;D

Maybe wields this:

(http://www.infendo.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/09/guitaraxe-495x274.jpg)

Maybe a bard paladin who smites with a power chord?

(I did get the actual reference, btw)
Title: Re: Breaking the Dungeon
Post by: nijineko on December 09, 2017, 07:46:21 PM
Do you want Trypticon?  Because this is how you get Trypticon...

Seriously though, having this as a centerpiece of a truly monster dungeon would be absolutely amazing if you then had it transform into humanoid shape for the final series of battles a la Unicron.  Make it big enough and see about having Dungeon Lord affecting chunks of the planet its on :D

You know, if you could manage to enchant with intelligence every stronghold space on the planet, you'd probably wind up with something like this:

(https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11119/111192816/4126346-3023267-6696755301-plane.jpg)


or this:

(https://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net/transformers/images/2/28/UnicronDeathstarII.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20060305214245)
Title: Re: Breaking the Dungeon
Post by: SorO_Lost on December 10, 2017, 08:52:48 PM
A living planet casts Simulacrum and names his clone Ego?
Title: Re: Breaking the Dungeon
Post by: nijineko on December 11, 2017, 04:18:30 PM
A living planet casts Simulacrum and names his clone Ego?

Getting the caster level to 1/2 of the HD of a planet seems somewhat difficult to pull off, but would certainly be interesting. ^^

nice counter-reference, btw.
Title: Re: Breaking the Dungeon
Post by: phaedrusxy on December 17, 2017, 10:42:50 PM
A living planet casts Simulacrum and names his clone Ego?

Getting the caster level to 1/2 of the HD of a planet seems somewhat difficult to pull off, but would certainly be interesting. ^^
Delay Death, Beastland's Ferocity, and Masochism or something? Then some way to do infinite damage to yourself... and a bucket of water to drown yourself back to 0 HP at the end in. :D
Title: Re: Breaking the Dungeon
Post by: nijineko on December 18, 2017, 11:36:04 AM
A living planet casts Simulacrum and names his clone Ego?

Getting the caster level to 1/2 of the HD of a planet seems somewhat difficult to pull off, but would certainly be interesting. ^^
Delay Death, Beastland's Ferocity, and Masochism or something? Then some way to do infinite damage to yourself... and a bucket of water to drown yourself back to 0 HP at the end in. :D

Oh, so now you're explaining the Great Flood as a planet sized bucket of water? Only, I don't think a construct would drown, normally.

Still, that's classy.
Title: Re: Breaking the Dungeon
Post by: awaken_D_M_golem on December 18, 2017, 05:05:11 PM
What's that Monty Python line ... better get a bigger bucket (?)  :puke


Just a thought :  Mind Switch.
Title: Re: Breaking the Dungeon
Post by: phaedrusxy on December 19, 2017, 01:16:28 PM
What's that Monty Python line ... better get a bigger bucket (?)  :puke


Just a thought :  Mind Switch.
Or Polymorph/etc.

And yeah... loved that scene in the Meaning of Life. My favorite Monty Python movie, for sure. :D

Waiter: "How are you feeling Sir?"
Obese patron: "Better."
Waiter: "Better, Sir?"
Patron: "Better bring me a bucket... I think I'm gonna be sick."
Title: Re: Breaking the Dungeon
Post by: nijineko on December 19, 2017, 02:20:48 PM
What's that Monty Python line ... better get a bigger bucket (?)  :puke


Just a thought :  Mind Switch.
Or Polymorph/etc.

And yeah... loved that scene in the Meaning of Life. My favorite Monty Python movie, for sure. :D

Waiter: "How are you feeling Sir?"
Obese patron: "Better."
Waiter: "Better, Sir?"
Patron: "Better bring me a bucket... I think I'm gonna be sick."

Combining that quote with our current concept put a really trippy image in my head of our theoretical dungeon sitting in a bar and asking for a reeeeaaaally big bucket, and the look on the waiter's face as the dungeon starts to heave.

(anyone know any good "dungeon walks into a bar" jokes and/or puns?)

Though, really, what would cause a dungeon to vomit? After all those orcs and goblins and kobolds, slimes, oozes, undead, and whatnot that have been crawling around inside for who knows how long.... What would actually give a dungeon the hurls?

... Paladins, maybe?
Title: Re: Breaking the Dungeon
Post by: Archon on December 19, 2017, 08:33:12 PM
What's that Monty Python line ... better get a bigger bucket (?)  :puke


Just a thought :  Mind Switch.
Or Polymorph/etc.

And yeah... loved that scene in the Meaning of Life. My favorite Monty Python movie, for sure. :D

Waiter: "How are you feeling Sir?"
Obese patron: "Better."
Waiter: "Better, Sir?"
Patron: "Better bring me a bucket... I think I'm gonna be sick."

Combining that quote with our current concept put a really trippy image in my head of our theoretical dungeon sitting in a bar and asking for a reeeeaaaally big bucket, and the look on the waiter's face as the dungeon starts to heave.

(anyone know any good "dungeon walks into a bar" jokes and/or puns?)

Though, really, what would cause a dungeon to vomit? After all those orcs and goblins and kobolds, slimes, oozes, undead, and whatnot that have been crawling around inside for who knows how long.... What would actually give a dungeon the hurls?

... Paladins, maybe?

Paladins weaken the vital macrobiome  (https://xkcd.com/1471/)of a dungeon's internal organs, leading to weakness, starvation, and lack of treasure.
Title: Re: Breaking the Dungeon
Post by: Endarire on January 11, 2018, 07:02:49 PM
Final Fantasy IV had the Giant of Bab-il (SNES American translation).

Epic rules sorta do this with the living vault (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/livingVault.htm), but no sentience.

The living planet Ego seems like an Earthbound reference to an Ego Orb (http://earthbound.wikia.com/wiki/Ego_Orb).
Title: Re: Breaking the Dungeon
Post by: PlzBreakMyCampaign on February 21, 2018, 03:26:05 AM
I'm suddenly thinking of that one giant walking construct dungeon in Final Fantasy 4.
Final Fantasy IV had the Giant of Bab-il (SNES American translation).
And it was basically a planet-attacking monstrosity requiring multiple kingdom's of high tech armies to check it before you to infiltrate. It's basically an elder evil, but old school.

That Mogo picture makes me wonder if he had an evil counterpart? Like Atropus, the elder evil. I wonder if we could reverse-engineer the actual atropus stats from the aspect stats. The little (gargantuan) aspect has 58 strength... The real deal is 700miles in diameter.

Hmm. reverse engineering the "aspect" template via FCI web enh:
(click to show/hide)

Reversing that is tricky since applying the pseudo template removes information similar to derivatives. So when we integrate back the original (x^1 +C -> x^0+0), it won't be exact. Still it's close enough if you assume the original to not have absurd starting values in the grey area. Here's the real Atropus' stats:
(click to show/hide)
It also has low gravity, can eat you, and has a non-impulse engines speed of 40,000 ft (2,438 m/s)