Author Topic: Affiliations Discussion  (Read 28817 times)

Offline littha

  • Epic Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 2952
  • +1 Holy Muffin
    • View Profile
Re: Affiliations Discussion
« Reply #80 on: August 13, 2012, 05:16:53 PM »
I'm hesitant to make it based on damage, but I already have the presence of a breath weapon granting a boost.

I was just thinking along the lines of the maximum spell level you used in some of the affiliations.

Something like:
Breath weapon deals 5d6 damage or higher +1
Breath weapon deals 9d6 damage or higher +2

Offline Garryl

  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • ****
  • Posts: 4503
    • View Profile
Re: Affiliations Discussion
« Reply #81 on: August 13, 2012, 05:21:41 PM »
Breath weapons come in enough different sizes, I'd go with average damage instead of strict damage dice.

Offline VennDygrem

  • Epic Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 4587
  • Exceptionally Average
    • View Profile
Re: Affiliations Discussion
« Reply #82 on: August 13, 2012, 06:07:03 PM »
Just because I'd kick myself if I didn't ask, but I'd like to see some way for Dragonheart Adepts to gain access. Both Dragonfire Adepts and my Dragon Shaman fix get Dragonblood subtype at first level, but Dragonheart Adept doesn't (an oversight, I think, that DonQ made, but one that might be difficult to convince him to change). The only other option is for DhA's to blow a feat on Dragontouched, which isn't really good enough to spend a feat on unless you get it for free or if it's really integral to your build somehow.

Maybe you could have bonuses for number/type of natural weapons, since true dragons get a lot of them and most 'dragon aspirants' tend to gain several of them as well? Or maybe bonuses for size, since true dragons increase in size as they age?

Also, a note, but in the "tooth" category, most dragons and dragon aspirants gain immunity or resistance to a dragon's frightful presence anyway, so it's redundant. And as someone mentioned earlier, most true dragons won't need to take Draconic feats, so that's a useless benefit to them as well. I'm sure you're trying to build this from the ground up again anyway, though, but felt I should reiterate just in case.


Offline Garryl

  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • ****
  • Posts: 4503
    • View Profile
Re: Affiliations Discussion
« Reply #83 on: August 14, 2012, 09:54:08 AM »
Bonuses for Idealist classes, naturally.
Penalty for having neither a flight speed nor a breath weapon. Dragons probably look down on the lesser landwyrms.


What are some of the Chorrun Char's motivations, other "we're dragons, yarr"?

Edit: How about some Eberron Dragon Prophecy feats?
Edit2: ++ for pinning some act of sedition on the Calaspers.

Give bonuses for having spell-like abilities, not spellcasting. Not all true dragons have spellcasting, but are there any that don't have SLAs?
Resistance or immunity to an energy type as a racial ability or class feature

Possible benefits?
Ability Focus (breath weapon or frightful presence)
+2 Bluff and Sense Motive when dealing with dragons and dragonblooded
Gain DR 5/magic or increase existing DR/magic by 5.
Access to the "hoard", a communal vault of treasures. You can take anything out as long as you put the same value back in, and contribute additional treasure worth the same value within 1 month.

Offline SorO_Lost

  • Epic Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 7197
  • Banned
    • View Profile
Re: Affiliations Discussion
« Reply #84 on: August 14, 2012, 10:39:10 AM »
Give bonuses for having spell-like abilities, not spellcasting. Not all true dragons have spellcasting, but are there any that don't have SLAs?
Not to bog things down into a TD discussion. But only the Rattlyer and Incarnum lack real SLAs. The latter sort of does as Incarnum as transparency rules, but the former only has a free action Ex based ability that grants the effect of a spell rather than a SLA.

You're better off with a might makes it right theme set. Dungeons and Dragons certainly has made a sizable effort to make Dragons one of the most powerful race arch types in the game. Ability Focus and SR/DR improvements are spot on, and the horde plays into flavor. But do you really need a mechanical Diplomacy bonus for dealing with dragons when you already have to be one? It's like saying two Elves should get bonuses to social checks made against one another. Maybe bonuses to natural weapon damage or caster level with same subtyped spells something would be a better fit.

Offline sirpercival

  • Honorary Mod
  • *****
  • Posts: 10855
  • you can't escape the miles
    • View Profile
Re: Affiliations Discussion
« Reply #85 on: August 14, 2012, 11:16:57 AM »
Give bonuses for having spell-like abilities, not spellcasting. Not all true dragons have spellcasting, but are there any that don't have SLAs?
Not to bog things down into a TD discussion. But only the Rattlyer and Incarnum lack real SLAs. The latter sort of does as Incarnum as transparency rules, but the former only has a free action Ex based ability that grants the effect of a spell rather than a SLA.

You're better off with a might makes it right theme set. Dungeons and Dragons certainly has made a sizable effort to make Dragons one of the most powerful race arch types in the game. Ability Focus and SR/DR improvements are spot on, and the horde plays into flavor. But do you really need a mechanical Diplomacy bonus for dealing with dragons when you already have to be one? It's like saying two Elves should get bonuses to social checks made against one another. Maybe bonuses to natural weapon damage or caster level with same subtyped spells something would be a better fit.

Yeah, I was going to be changing the benefits too.  They are quite crappy.
I am the assassin of productivity

(member in good standing of the troll-feeders guild)

It's begun — my things have overgrown the previous sig.

Offline sirpercival

  • Honorary Mod
  • *****
  • Posts: 10855
  • you can't escape the miles
    • View Profile
Re: Affiliations Discussion
« Reply #86 on: August 15, 2012, 12:02:46 PM »
Hokay!  Chorrun Char is done.  Now I need to do the Sisterhood and the Fallen (no one's involved with the Forsaken or the Order of the Dawn yet).  Anyone have suggestions for either?
I am the assassin of productivity

(member in good standing of the troll-feeders guild)

It's begun — my things have overgrown the previous sig.

Offline Garryl

  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • ****
  • Posts: 4503
    • View Profile
Re: Affiliations Discussion
« Reply #87 on: August 15, 2012, 12:36:04 PM »
Char: Heart says 19-23 score, should be 30+.

Just to confirm, the Fallen are with the demons only (CE), not devils (LE), right?

Fallen score boosters:
Immunity to fire: +1
Ability to cast any Planar Binding or Planar Ally spells: +1
Ability to use lesser invocations: +1
Corrupts a good-aligned Outsider to evil, taking significant part in its change to an evil alignment: +1+1/4 CR each
Captures a good-aligned Outsider alive and delivers it to the Fallen for whatever unspeakable rituals they may have in store: +1/6 CR each
Blackguard, Demonbinder, Nar Demonbinder, or Malconvoker classes: +1 each
Ability to rage or frenzy: +2
Banishes or Dismisses a neutral evil or chaotic evil outsider from a plane: -2 each
Calls a non-evil outsider: -2 each

Offline sirpercival

  • Honorary Mod
  • *****
  • Posts: 10855
  • you can't escape the miles
    • View Profile
Re: Affiliations Discussion
« Reply #88 on: August 15, 2012, 01:05:15 PM »
Char: Heart says 19-23 score, should be 30+.
Fixed.

Quote
Just to confirm, the Fallen are with the demons only (CE), not devils (LE), right?
I think they're using that as a catch-all for evil outsiders, mostly... though LE outsiders are much more likely to mainstream due to the alignment of the gov't.

Quote
Fallen score boosters:
Immunity to fire: +1
Ability to cast any Planar Binding or Planar Ally spells: +1
Ability to use lesser invocations: +1
Corrupts a good-aligned Outsider to evil, taking significant part in its change to an evil alignment: +1+1/4 CR each
Captures a good-aligned Outsider alive and delivers it to the Fallen for whatever unspeakable rituals they may have in store: +1/6 CR each
Blackguard, Demonbinder, Nar Demonbinder, or Malconvoker classes: +1 each
Ability to rage or frenzy: +2
Banishes or Dismisses a neutral evil or chaotic evil outsider from a plane: -2 each
Calls a non-evil outsider: -2 each
Many of these are pretty awesome.  However, Malconvoker is non-evil and is all about using evil against evil.  Not really the right thing, I think.

EDIT: How do the Char benefits look?
I am the assassin of productivity

(member in good standing of the troll-feeders guild)

It's begun — my things have overgrown the previous sig.

Offline sirpercival

  • Honorary Mod
  • *****
  • Posts: 10855
  • you can't escape the miles
    • View Profile
Re: Affiliations Discussion
« Reply #89 on: August 15, 2012, 01:24:42 PM »
Fallen are done.
I am the assassin of productivity

(member in good standing of the troll-feeders guild)

It's begun — my things have overgrown the previous sig.

Offline littha

  • Epic Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 2952
  • +1 Holy Muffin
    • View Profile
Re: Affiliations Discussion
« Reply #90 on: August 15, 2012, 01:49:52 PM »
The Char benefits look good though now I really need to take levels in Wyrm Warrior /sigh...

Offline Garryl

  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • ****
  • Posts: 4503
    • View Profile
Re: Affiliations Discussion
« Reply #91 on: August 15, 2012, 01:51:49 PM »
Any chance you could soil the huge pics in the affiliation thread? The ones just above the spoilers showing the affiliation's symbol are fine, but the ones below showing off the location or members or whatever are big and distracting when scrolling through the page to the affiliation you want. Plus, the tiny spoiler is sandwiched between the two, making it easy to miss.

Many of these are pretty awesome.  However, Malconvoker is non-evil and is all about using evil against evil.  Not really the right thing, I think.

Thanks. I did not know that. All I knew was that they were about summoning lots of evil outsiders.

Fallen are done.

Check Brotherhood of Redemption for the correct wording on the capture/corrupt good outsider score bonuses.

Upworlder should grant a +2 bonus against any non-evil creature that sees the mark, not for any.

I'd just give the Evil subtype, not also the Outsider type, with Downworlder. That way you don't have to worry about affiliation score feedback, sudden weapon proficiency, changing racial HD, inability to be raised, etc.

The imp/quasit should be bluffable, too. Truth and diplomacy are fun and all, but going off on your own hidden agenda is so in character with evil outsiders.

What attitude does the imp/quasit have toward you? I'd expect either Ally (-5) or Acquaintance (positive) (-2).

Diplomacy wouldn't be used to convince the imp/quasit that a mission is in the interests of the Fallen. It would be used to convince the imp/quasit to go along with the mission anyways, despite it not being in the direct interests of the Fallen. Bluff should be used to make it think that all is according to plan.

How can you summon a new imp/quasit if the original dies? Like Leadership (as it's a cohort), as Wild Cohort (as that's what's used for the benefits), as a familiar (since Improved Familiar is how imps and quasits are usually gained as companions), or some other way?

Fallen Lord: Currently seems to imply that you COP once per day whether you want to or not. Use this instead:
   Once per day, you can use contact other plane as a supernatural ability, but only to contact outer-planar creatures.
Might also want to add some resistance or immunity to the Int/Cha decrease, increase the odds of not getting a lie, or just swap to Commune instead. Note that your imp/quasit companion has already been asking 6 questions/week with Commune since Downworlder rank.

Offline sirpercival

  • Honorary Mod
  • *****
  • Posts: 10855
  • you can't escape the miles
    • View Profile
Re: Affiliations Discussion
« Reply #92 on: August 15, 2012, 02:52:59 PM »
OK, I edited Fallen (including changing the benefit of Fallen Lord completely, I forgot about the Commune of the imp/quasit).
I am the assassin of productivity

(member in good standing of the troll-feeders guild)

It's begun — my things have overgrown the previous sig.

Offline sirpercival

  • Honorary Mod
  • *****
  • Posts: 10855
  • you can't escape the miles
    • View Profile
Re: Affiliations Discussion
« Reply #93 on: August 15, 2012, 03:37:13 PM »
The Char benefits look good though now I really need to take levels in Wyrm Warrior /sigh...
  Why?  Do you need them to get a high-enough score?  What do you have which I could add in?  You're a fricking True Dragon, you shouldn't have to take levels in WW.
I am the assassin of productivity

(member in good standing of the troll-feeders guild)

It's begun — my things have overgrown the previous sig.

Offline littha

  • Epic Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 2952
  • +1 Holy Muffin
    • View Profile
Re: Affiliations Discussion
« Reply #94 on: August 15, 2012, 03:40:14 PM »
Just because I like the class and want to hit the Draconic Ideals/Invocations/Shape Formula thing. It sucks that I would end up with an overwritten natural armor bonus and a breath weapon I would never use but manuvers are cool and I wanted to test out some of my ideals :D.

Pyroclastic Dragon 5/Wyrm Warrior 1 can hit 12 or 13 points on that table without any of the multiple use bonuses.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2012, 03:42:30 PM by littha »

Offline Garryl

  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • ****
  • Posts: 4503
    • View Profile
Re: Affiliations Discussion
« Reply #95 on: August 15, 2012, 03:48:20 PM »
House of B&W has a typo in Seer (Seer is repeated twice).
What exactly do you mean by maximizing the chance of correct divinations? Most divinations have fixed chances of correct answers. Maybe instead increase the chance of a correct, truthful answer by 10% for any divination that has a percentage chance of giving a correct, truthful answer?

Offline sirpercival

  • Honorary Mod
  • *****
  • Posts: 10855
  • you can't escape the miles
    • View Profile
Re: Affiliations Discussion
« Reply #96 on: August 15, 2012, 03:55:28 PM »
Just because I like the class and want to hit the Draconic Ideals/Invocations/Shape Formula thing. It sucks that I would end up with an overwritten natural armor bonus and a breath weapon I would never use but manuvers are cool and I wanted to test out some of my ideals :D.

Pyroclastic Dragon 5/Wyrm Warrior 1 can hit 12 or 13 points on that table without any of the multiple use bonuses.

You know, you could use the WW breath weapon to get different damage types.  Pick Ideals that don't overlap, obviously.

House of B&W has a typo in Seer (Seer is repeated twice).
What exactly do you mean by maximizing the chance of correct divinations? Most divinations have fixed chances of correct answers. Maybe instead increase the chance of a correct, truthful answer by 10% for any divination that has a percentage chance of giving a correct, truthful answer?
Fixed.

OK, we only have three left, folks.  Let's bang these out!  Hit me with suggestions :D
I am the assassin of productivity

(member in good standing of the troll-feeders guild)

It's begun — my things have overgrown the previous sig.

Offline littha

  • Epic Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 2952
  • +1 Holy Muffin
    • View Profile
Re: Affiliations Discussion
« Reply #97 on: August 15, 2012, 04:01:10 PM »
Just because I like the class and want to hit the Draconic Ideals/Invocations/Shape Formula thing. It sucks that I would end up with an overwritten natural armor bonus and a breath weapon I would never use but manuvers are cool and I wanted to test out some of my ideals :D.

Pyroclastic Dragon 5/Wyrm Warrior 1 can hit 12 or 13 points on that table without any of the multiple use bonuses.

You know, you could use the WW breath weapon to get different damage types.  Pick Ideals that don't overlap, obviously.
True enough but a little weird thematically, I would imagin a Fire/Sound dragon would probably pick Fire/Sound Ideals rather than cold or piercing or whatever.

I was half way through writing a special racial adaptation section to go with all those ideals a while back but seem to have lost the .txt file before I could send it to you...

Offline sirpercival

  • Honorary Mod
  • *****
  • Posts: 10855
  • you can't escape the miles
    • View Profile
Re: Affiliations Discussion
« Reply #98 on: August 15, 2012, 04:03:49 PM »
...find it!!
I am the assassin of productivity

(member in good standing of the troll-feeders guild)

It's begun — my things have overgrown the previous sig.

Offline littha

  • Epic Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 2952
  • +1 Holy Muffin
    • View Profile
Re: Affiliations Discussion
« Reply #99 on: August 15, 2012, 04:38:44 PM »
Sent it you in a PM. It is really rough and rather sprawling. Never got around to finishing the scalethief stuff and a lot of the wording is rather raw.