Author Topic: "Dumpster-diving" through splatbooks; I want to minimize this  (Read 14950 times)

Offline Libertad

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"Dumpster-diving" through splatbooks; I want to minimize this
« on: November 13, 2011, 04:17:34 PM »
I got a lot of D&D splatbooks, both 1st and 3rd party.  I like the variety of options, both fluff and crunch, that they provide to me.

But recently I've noticed that the sheer amount of choices can be overwhelming.  I don't really spend time looking through books and trying to find the right combinations of spells, feats, and magic items to make powerful characters.  I like the option of having few books as an easy point of reference.

I'm planning on limiting the amount of non-Core books at my table for my games to a reasonable level, while still keeping options open for most classes.

Let's make six books the maximum amount.

What books provide the most options for the most characters?

For the purposes of this thread, I don't count setting books or products that are majority-fluff.  Instead I'm referring to stuff like Complete Arcane, books whose purpose is to give increased amounts of options to the game.

I assume that I'll need the Tome of Battle for melee characters to stand on their own.  The PHB II also has a good number of feats as well (hello Robilar's Gambit).

Offline Mooncrow

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Re: "Dumpster-diving" through splatbooks; I want to minimize this
« Reply #1 on: November 13, 2011, 04:21:26 PM »
I got a lot of D&D splatbooks, both 1st and 3rd party.  I like the variety of options, both fluff and crunch, that they provide to me.

But recently I've noticed that the sheer amount of choices can be overwhelming.  I don't really spend time looking through books and trying to find the right combinations of spells, feats, and magic items to make powerful characters.  I like the option of having few books as an easy point of reference.

I'm planning on limiting the amount of non-Core books at my table for my games to a reasonable level, while still keeping options open for most classes.

Let's make six books the maximum amount.

What books provide the most options for the most characters?

For the purposes of this thread, I don't count setting books or products that are majority-fluff.  Instead I'm referring to stuff like Complete Arcane, books whose purpose is to give increased amounts of options to the game.

I assume that I'll need the Tome of Battle for melee characters to stand on their own.  The PHB II also has a good number of feats as well (hello Robilar's Gambit).
Well, if you feel compelled to go this route:

Tome of Battle
Magic Item Compendium
Spell Compendium

Those are the "must have's" - the others would depend more on what your party wants to do. 

Seriously though, that's a lot of limitation.  Core + Completes + 6 would at least make things a little more viable. 

Offline Libertad

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Re: "Dumpster-diving" through splatbooks; I want to minimize this
« Reply #2 on: November 13, 2011, 05:13:44 PM »
The Complete Books give a lot of options as well.  Complete Adventurer has Leap Attack, after all.

I don't own Complete Scoundrel, Champion, or Mage.  I heard mixed results about Complete Champion, though.  Is it worth it as a book?

Also, what about Player's Handbook 2?  Is it recommended?

Alright then, it's the Core, the Complete books, Tome of Battle, Magic Item Compendium, Spell Compendium, and 3 other books.
« Last Edit: November 13, 2011, 05:16:40 PM by Libertad »

Offline Basket Burner

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Re: "Dumpster-diving" through splatbooks; I want to minimize this
« Reply #3 on: November 13, 2011, 05:23:24 PM »
Complete Champion gives a number of useful things.

Offline Mooncrow

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Re: "Dumpster-diving" through splatbooks; I want to minimize this
« Reply #4 on: November 13, 2011, 05:34:57 PM »
The Complete Books give a lot of options as well.  Complete Adventurer has Leap Attack, after all.

I don't own Complete Scoundrel, Champion, or Mage.  I heard mixed results about Complete Champion, though.  Is it worth it as a book?

Also, what about Player's Handbook 2?  Is it recommended?

Alright then, it's the Core, the Complete books, Tome of Battle, Magic Item Compendium, Spell Compendium, and 3 other books.

The biggest thing Champion brings to the table is the Devotion feats, which can let any character pick up some useful additions to their class.  PHII is another broadly useful book, just not quite as widely applicable as the other three I named. 

Offline SneeR

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Re: "Dumpster-diving" through splatbooks; I want to minimize this
« Reply #5 on: November 13, 2011, 05:38:43 PM »
I think that any book should be allowed, just makes sure they run it by you first! If you don't like it for any reason, refuse it! If they ask, you have three options:

"I think that that ability is out of place due to power/campaign/character imbalance."
"I'm not familiar with that option and don't want to take the time to get so."
"I am the DM so, no."
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Offline Basket Burner

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Re: "Dumpster-diving" through splatbooks; I want to minimize this
« Reply #6 on: November 13, 2011, 05:54:22 PM »
The Complete Books give a lot of options as well.  Complete Adventurer has Leap Attack, after all.

I don't own Complete Scoundrel, Champion, or Mage.  I heard mixed results about Complete Champion, though.  Is it worth it as a book?

Also, what about Player's Handbook 2?  Is it recommended?

Alright then, it's the Core, the Complete books, Tome of Battle, Magic Item Compendium, Spell Compendium, and 3 other books.

The biggest thing Champion brings to the table is the Devotion feats, which can let any character pick up some useful additions to their class.  PHII is another broadly useful book, just not quite as widely applicable as the other three I named.

And Pounce. Don't forget that.

Offline Mooncrow

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Re: "Dumpster-diving" through splatbooks; I want to minimize this
« Reply #7 on: November 13, 2011, 06:02:20 PM »
The Complete Books give a lot of options as well.  Complete Adventurer has Leap Attack, after all.

I don't own Complete Scoundrel, Champion, or Mage.  I heard mixed results about Complete Champion, though.  Is it worth it as a book?

Also, what about Player's Handbook 2?  Is it recommended?

Alright then, it's the Core, the Complete books, Tome of Battle, Magic Item Compendium, Spell Compendium, and 3 other books.

The biggest thing Champion brings to the table is the Devotion feats, which can let any character pick up some useful additions to their class.  PHII is another broadly useful book, just not quite as widely applicable as the other three I named.

And Pounce. Don't forget that.

Yeah, Lion Totem is another big deal from CC.

Offline Libertad

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Re: "Dumpster-diving" through splatbooks; I want to minimize this
« Reply #8 on: November 13, 2011, 06:36:09 PM »
Is Lion Totem something anybody can get, or just for Barbarians?

Offline Basket Burner

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Re: "Dumpster-diving" through splatbooks; I want to minimize this
« Reply #9 on: November 13, 2011, 06:45:30 PM »
Is Lion Totem something anybody can get, or just for Barbarians?

Anyone with one level of Barbarian. Which means any non Lawful melee character. It's worth including just for that.

Offline Libertad

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Re: "Dumpster-diving" through splatbooks; I want to minimize this
« Reply #10 on: November 13, 2011, 06:49:40 PM »
What's the word on Complete Scoundrel and Mage?

Offline Dan2

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Re: "Dumpster-diving" through splatbooks; I want to minimize this
« Reply #11 on: November 13, 2011, 11:42:11 PM »
Can't say about Complete Scoundrel, but I use Complete Mage all the time.  Focused Specialist and Master Specialist make it a big draw for me.
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Offline SneeR

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Re: "Dumpster-diving" through splatbooks; I want to minimize this
« Reply #12 on: November 14, 2011, 12:02:27 AM »
There is nothing to dive for in Complete Scoundrel. If people want something out of the Complete Scoundrel, they have no ulterior motives, because evrythign is straightforward.

However, avoid all of its luck feats and luck points and whatever. Undue complication.

Although, Skill Tricks make skills viable at much higher levels, so don't get rid of those.

Mixed bag, really.
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Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: "Dumpster-diving" through splatbooks; I want to minimize this
« Reply #13 on: November 14, 2011, 12:09:14 AM »
1. Click on Start. Mouse over all Program, click Accessories to expend, now click on Paint.
2. Open the PDF, select the Snapshot tool, press Ctrl+A, toggle your window to Paint.
3. Press Ctrl+V, click on any tool then the select box again and draw a box over the area you want.
4. Under Image at the top, hit Crop, now use the Text tool to note the source directly into the image and save it.
5. Repeat till you compiled your own single book of images containing everything you care to ever use.
Optionally, get the OCRed versions and be text based.

Tip, real image editors (like painshop) let you handle images well enough to do things like create a 1kx3k blank and layer three pages of material, like a class, into it or even recompile several small feat images into one. Like I have the Dragon Heritage feat & table compiled with the Kobold racial rules complete with the text from the online article all in a single image marked Race - Kobold. Srsly easy in the digital world as you can copy your image library into a character's folder and toss it all on a flash drive for DM inspection while citing sources and full rules. An OCRed PDF means you can readily provide rules quotes regardless so you don't have to be image based, I just prefer it.

Offline Libertad

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Re: "Dumpster-diving" through splatbooks; I want to minimize this
« Reply #14 on: November 14, 2011, 12:28:42 AM »
Sounds nifty, SorO_Lost!  Thanks!

I'll keep this in mind in the future!

Offline Unbeliever

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Re: "Dumpster-diving" through splatbooks; I want to minimize this
« Reply #15 on: November 14, 2011, 12:26:27 PM »
I think limiting splatbooks has perverse effects.  It helps out characters whose abilities are self-contained in a single book or two, and hurts those builds who are, coincidentally, spread out all over the place.  A side effect is that it also hurts spellcasters less (I know we're all shocked) -- nearly everything they need is in the Spell Compendium, PHB, and maybe another book or two.  Other abilities are often essentially randomly distributed among books.

One solution is to have a decent gentleman's agreement about how good your characters need to be.  Then, you know you can stop diving after you've reached that point.  I know I always have a temptation for more diving, often of books I already know well, to find some fun and interesting options, but I find that having a decent sense of when to "stop" helps whittle things down a lot.

P.S.:  I use digital copies for all my books, even the ones I already own.  There are also handy compendiums out there that compile nearly every feat, spell, or item in one source.  They're searchable, and I find that very handy.  Part of me suspects that the iPad was secretly designed for D&D, since that's probably where it's made the biggest impact in my life. 

Offline Libertad

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Re: "Dumpster-diving" through splatbooks; I want to minimize this
« Reply #16 on: November 14, 2011, 02:35:05 PM »
I think limiting splatbooks has perverse effects.  It helps out characters whose abilities are self-contained in a single book or two, and hurts those builds who are, coincidentally, spread out all over the place.  A side effect is that it also hurts spellcasters less (I know we're all shocked) -- nearly everything they need is in the Spell Compendium, PHB, and maybe another book or two.  Other abilities are often essentially randomly distributed among books.

One solution is to have a decent gentleman's agreement about how good your characters need to be.  Then, you know you can stop diving after you've reached that point.  I know I always have a temptation for more diving, often of books I already know well, to find some fun and interesting options, but I find that having a decent sense of when to "stop" helps whittle things down a lot.

P.S.:  I use digital copies for all my books, even the ones I already own.  There are also handy compendiums out there that compile nearly every feat, spell, or item in one source.  They're searchable, and I find that very handy.  Part of me suspects that the iPad was secretly designed for D&D, since that's probably where it's made the biggest impact in my life.

Such a shame I don't own an iPad.

Now that I think of it, my original post was an over-reaction.  In some groups over the years I had gamers take over an hour just to create a character; they looked through book after book after book for the right combination.  Nothing's wrong with this during spare time, but I tend to want to start the game earlier than that!

I think that many melee characters need access to stuff like the Complete Series and Tome of Battle.  Alas, the Wizards and Druids will be least affected by a Core Only game.

Offline archangel.arcanis

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Re: "Dumpster-diving" through splatbooks; I want to minimize this
« Reply #17 on: November 14, 2011, 05:23:54 PM »
I think limiting splatbooks has perverse effects.  It helps out characters whose abilities are self-contained in a single book or two, and hurts those builds who are, coincidentally, spread out all over the place.  A side effect is that it also hurts spellcasters less (I know we're all shocked) -- nearly everything they need is in the Spell Compendium, PHB, and maybe another book or two.  Other abilities are often essentially randomly distributed among books.

One solution is to have a decent gentleman's agreement about how good your characters need to be.  Then, you know you can stop diving after you've reached that point.  I know I always have a temptation for more diving, often of books I already know well, to find some fun and interesting options, but I find that having a decent sense of when to "stop" helps whittle things down a lot.

P.S.:  I use digital copies for all my books, even the ones I already own.  There are also handy compendiums out there that compile nearly every feat, spell, or item in one source.  They're searchable, and I find that very handy.  Part of me suspects that the iPad was secretly designed for D&D, since that's probably where it's made the biggest impact in my life.

Such a shame I don't own an iPad.

Now that I think of it, my original post was an over-reaction.  In some groups over the years I had gamers take over an hour just to create a character; they looked through book after book after book for the right combination.  Nothing's wrong with this during spare time, but I tend to want to start the game earlier than that!

I think that many melee characters need access to stuff like the Complete Series and Tome of Battle.  Alas, the Wizards and Druids will be least affected by a Core Only game.
You don't need an iPad for a tablet. There are other tablets that function just as well or better depending on your needs, and they are certainly cheaper than the amount apple wants. I have a tablet with a full sized SD card slot, so I got a large capacity SD card and put ALL of my gaming books on it. Everything for multiple game systems. Now on the drop of a hat I can play or run any system I have pdf copies of the books for. I still prefer the dead tree format for my home game as it is easier to switch which book I'm and and cross reference between books as well.

For your problem of people taking too long to make characters there are a couple of solutions. First let them know say a week ahead of time to do all of their sifting through books and have most everything they need ready. Second just give them a time limit and if their character isn't ready they lose out on XP and play time.

Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: "Dumpster-diving" through splatbooks; I want to minimize this
« Reply #18 on: November 14, 2011, 06:22:51 PM »
Hell a Kindle can do it too. You could recompile your own PDF of stuff and port it over onto your Kindle. That like a $79 dollar pirate every book ever device with D&D support. Hells yeah.

Offline RobbyPants

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Re: "Dumpster-diving" through splatbooks; I want to minimize this
« Reply #19 on: November 14, 2011, 09:30:17 PM »
I think limiting splatbooks has perverse effects.  It helps out characters whose abilities are self-contained in a single book or two, and hurts those builds who are, coincidentally, spread out all over the place.  A side effect is that it also hurts spellcasters less (I know we're all shocked) -- nearly everything they need is in the Spell Compendium, PHB, and maybe another book or two.  Other abilities are often essentially randomly distributed among books. 
This is very true. A core caster is pretty awesome. Give them the SC and they're even better. They can do better with other books, but the gap isn't as big as it is for non-casters and splatbook dependency.


One solution is to have a decent gentleman's agreement about how good your characters need to be.  Then, you know you can stop diving after you've reached that point.  I know I always have a temptation for more diving, often of books I already know well, to find some fun and interesting options, but I find that having a decent sense of when to "stop" helps whittle things down a lot.
This is the only way, really. As a DM, I care a lot more about what a PC can do and not really about how many books it uses. If all of those books are available at the session, I'm generally fine (assuming the material isn't crazy).
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