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Creative Corner => Play By Post => Topic started by: Drammor on March 03, 2017, 05:03:19 PM

Title: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
Post by: Drammor on March 03, 2017, 05:03:19 PM
Marvel, tremble in fear and if you're unlucky enough, maybe even catch a glimpse of Orcus himself! D:

I'd like to check for a show of hands on interest in a PbP campaign. I'd like to GM for 3 or 4 players, playing from ECL 9 up to around 15. The campaign is The Exiled City, a 7 out of 10 hardness game about a faith-based expeditionary force sent to investigate the demons and undead recently being produced by the "Harrow Gate," a magical gateway in the side of a mountain that leads to an ancient city that should be all but uninhabited.

Play would include combat scaled per the Heroes of Battle supplement, with strategy and tactics, of the players and their army against forces of darkness including demons, the fey, the obyrith and the undead, as well as more "traditional" encounters featuring just the players and a few opponents at a time. Leadership is not only allowed, but comes highly recommended for this one. Despite this, the PCs will be isolated for most of the campaign, meaning that once a follower is dead, it will not be replaced. The Exiled City will have some elements of horror, including lurid descriptions and creepy stuff, but is not designed to be a horror campaign.

I have these ideas about chargen...

Character Generation
Interest, thoughts, questions, suggestions?
Title: Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
Post by: ketaro on March 03, 2017, 08:06:29 PM
All the animal companions and a lycanthrope PC?
Title: Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
Post by: Drammor on March 03, 2017, 08:28:39 PM
Doesn't lycanthrope exceed the limit of LA on templates?

Ah. I keep looking at Crystal Keep. The lycanthrope listed in RoF would work, if you were afflicted. Hehe. That might kind of fun to run, in this setting. Hehehe.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
Post by: Maelphaxerazz on March 03, 2017, 10:15:59 PM
I am interested. Probably would build a "how many followers can I get" build, because it is pretty rare to see Leadership even allowed, let alone encouraged.

While we are on this topic, I could use some clarification.

1. You have two class lists, A and B. "Base character classes will be chosen from a pair of lists as seen below." Does that mean one from A and one from B, or that one must choose A or B and get both from that list?
2. "No templates greater than LA+1". How does this interact with Savage Progressions, which divide up templates into one-level increments?
3. "average per level, rounded down". Does this mean that a d6 hit die produces 3 hit points, or does it mean that a d6 hit die produces 3.5 hit points, and if you have a .5 after adding your hit points, you round down? In other words, is it rounded down for every hit die, or is the final total rounded down?
4. What is an "anti-feat"? We cannot take Chicken-Infested as Commoner is not on the class list, and I don't think there are any other flaws that give a benefit to the PC, so I am wondering what you mean by this.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
Post by: ketaro on March 03, 2017, 10:39:23 PM
Alternatively my "one allowed homebrew item" could just be, like, one of Oslecamo's lycanthrope racial classes to make it easier by not having to deal with LA.

Probably Druid/Beastmaster/Beast Heart Adept. Maybe more, but those are all I know off the top of my head for animal companion purposes without researching. Cohorts would be awakened animals, likely using incarnum to save me some trouble in equipping them.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
Post by: Drammor on March 03, 2017, 11:37:29 PM
I am interested. Probably would build a "how many followers can I get" build, because it is pretty rare to see Leadership even allowed, let alone encouraged.

While we are on this topic, I could use some clarification.

1. You have two class lists, A and B. "Base character classes will be chosen from a pair of lists as seen below." Does that mean one from A and one from B, or that one must choose A or B and get both from that list?
2. "No templates greater than LA+1". How does this interact with Savage Progressions, which divide up templates into one-level increments?
3. "average per level, rounded down". Does this mean that a d6 hit die produces 3 hit points, or does it mean that a d6 hit die produces 3.5 hit points, and if you have a .5 after adding your hit points, you round down? In other words, is it rounded down for every hit die, or is the final total rounded down?
4. What is an "anti-feat"? We cannot take Chicken-Infested as Commoner is not on the class list, and I don't think there are any other flaws that give a benefit to the PC, so I am wondering what you mean by this.

Yeah, I'm pretty excited for a Leadership campaign. :D And hey, those are some great questions you have there. Let's see if I can knock any of them out.

1. Sorry about that. To clarify, each player will select a base class from list A, and another base class from list B. For players, no other base classes are allowed.
2. Gurgh. D: I am awful with savage progressions. For some reason, I can never account for them. I'll do my best, though. From the get-go, I'd say that templates as savage levels merely occupy the same side of the gestalt as prcs, but I would ask that you employ no savage progressions that require more than 4 total levels. If that doesn't work, I suspect it's because I just have a hard time wrapping my head around savage progressions, and would appreciate more discussion about it to work out a solid solution.
3. The latter. d6 produces 3.5 hp, and if you have a remaining .5 after adding up hp, drop it for play purposes.
4. Anti-feats are a terrible Kingdoms of Kalamar creation that do the exact opposite of what feats by the same name do, are acquired randomly, and net a bonus feat per two anti-feats. Unbelievably swingy and somewhat nonsense, they either break builds or affect them in no way. I just like to nip any requests about them in the bud.

Alternatively my "one allowed homebrew item" could just be, like, one of Oslecamo's lycanthrope racial classes to make it easier by not having to deal with LA.

Probably Druid/Beastmaster/Beast Heart Adept. Maybe more, but those are all I know off the top of my head for animal companion purposes without researching. Cohorts would be awakened animals, likely using incarnum to save me some trouble in equipping them.

If you're really dedicated to this beast pack thing, I'm sure we can find a build that will accommodate you.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
Post by: Vladeshi on March 04, 2017, 12:12:26 AM
This looks really interesting.
I would like to see about joining.

Initial build plan would be Swordsage//Dread Necromancer
or maybe a Bard//Dread Necromancer

Question: If a Dread Necromancer makes a skeleton and has room in his undead leadership pool for it, could he transfer it from his animate dead pool to his leadership pool?
Title: Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
Post by: ketaro on March 04, 2017, 12:13:09 AM
I thought that class list was what the followers/cohorts were restricted to?
Title: Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
Post by: Chemus on March 04, 2017, 12:14:34 AM
...Probably Druid/Beastmaster/Beast Heart Adept...

Remember that BHA doesn't stack w/ Druid/Beastmaster, and druid ain't on the gestalt list. Try to get BHA on the other side of the gestalt from the beastmaster.

Perhaps the Simple bard (http://dndsrd.net/unearthedCoreClass.html#simple-bard) variant would be a good base? Have Variant chained barbarian with Wild Shape (Trade Fast Movement for Pounce (CC), Trade Rage et. al. for Fav Enemy and Archery Combat Style, then Trade Combat Style for fast movement and Wild shape Small and Medium only) opposing the Bard/Beastmaster? 9th gestalt: Simple Variant Bard 5/Beastmaster 4//WS Barbarian 5/BHA 4.

No lycanthropy required, per se, if Drammor doesn't balk at the Variant chaining.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
Post by: ketaro on March 04, 2017, 12:25:28 AM
I know it doesn't stack, but there's feats for boosting animal companion effective levels.

That is a nice gestalt tho. I feel kinda set on the lycanthrope bit tho, even if I need to pull back the build a bit
Title: Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
Post by: Nanshork on March 04, 2017, 12:30:39 AM
I'm on the fence about throwing my hat in, but for consideration I'd like to put this Marshal homebrew overhaul (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=13687.0) under consideration.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
Post by: Drammor on March 04, 2017, 06:42:40 AM
This looks really interesting.
I would like to see about joining.

Initial build plan would be Swordsage//Dread Necromancer
or maybe a Bard//Dread Necromancer

Question: If a Dread Necromancer makes a skeleton and has room in his undead leadership pool for it, could he transfer it from his animate dead pool to his leadership pool?

Answer: Yes. A good way to get around the issue of isolation when your ranks need refilling. :)

Remember that BHA doesn't stack w/ Druid/Beastmaster, and druid ain't on the gestalt list. Try to get BHA on the other side of the gestalt from the beastmaster.

Perhaps the Simple bard (http://dndsrd.net/unearthedCoreClass.html#simple-bard) variant would be a good base? Have Variant chained barbarian with Wild Shape (Trade Fast Movement for Pounce (CC), Trade Rage et. al. for Fav Enemy and Archery Combat Style, then Trade Combat Style for fast movement and Wild shape Small and Medium only) opposing the Bard/Beastmaster? 9th gestalt: Simple Variant Bard 5/Beastmaster 4//WS Barbarian 5/BHA 4.

No lycanthropy required, per se, if Drammor doesn't balk at the Variant chaining.

That's some pretty fancy legerdemain you pulled, there. Just so you know, I don't mind the chain. :)

I thought that class list was what the followers/cohorts were restricted to?

I'm afraid not. Lists A and B will be used for PCs and cohorts. Followers do not use gestalt and are limited to tier 4, 5 or 6 classes.

I'm on the fence about throwing my hat in, but for consideration I'd like to put this Marshal homebrew overhaul (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=13687.0) under consideration.

That's quite a boost to the class. The class itself would count as your homebrew, though, and you wouldn't be able to use its related feats. Would that still work for you?

Also, I have an image of a basic map of the Exiled City, according to your church's records taken about 150 years ago. This was the last time the city was subject to cartographic scouting, and due to the fear and superstition surrounding the city and the Harrow Gate, no one has so much as suggested an attempt to update the record since then.

http://imgur.com/LXjGQu6
Title: Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
Post by: Maelphaxerazz on March 04, 2017, 10:55:22 AM
One homebrew item? Well... (https://www.myth-weavers.com/wiki/index.php/Lightning_Warrior)  :p
Title: Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
Post by: Nanshork on March 04, 2017, 12:25:38 PM
Having the class without its supporting material wouldn't work for me unfortunately, I just hate the base Marshal class.

Anything that I would want would involve homebrew upgrades to the tier 4 classes or extensive Pathfinder material so I'm going to bow out and leave this to people who are more easily inspired by the constraints.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
Post by: Drammor on March 04, 2017, 12:49:20 PM
One homebrew item? Well... (https://www.myth-weavers.com/wiki/index.php/Lightning_Warrior)  :p

Nope. Nope nope. Not powerful enough. Without a familiar, it just wouldn't survive.

Having the class without its supporting material wouldn't work for me unfortunately, I just hate the base Marshal class.

Anything that I would want would involve homebrew upgrades to the tier 4 classes or extensive Pathfinder material so I'm going to bow out and leave this to people who are more easily inspired by the constraints.

I thought that might be the case. Maybe another campaign another time, then. :)
Title: Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
Post by: Maelphaxerazz on March 04, 2017, 11:54:01 PM
Step 1: take the Dragon Cohort feat. Dragon cohort is treated as -3 ECL for the purpose of cohort level restrictions.
Step 2: get a Dragonwrought Kobold as your cohort (or any other LA+0 Dragon-type creature). He will, in fact, be higher level than you are.
Step 3: have the Dragonwrought Kobold take the Dragon Cohort feat
Repeat ad nauseum
Title: Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
Post by: Chemus on March 05, 2017, 03:11:23 PM
  • Optimization Level: Moderate. No broken/clearly overpowered combinations, infinite loops or...
Step 1: take the Dragon Cohort feat. Dragon cohort is treated as -3 ECL for the purpose of cohort level restrictions.
Step 2: get a Dragonwrought Kobold as your cohort (or any other LA+0 Dragon-type creature). He will, in fact, be higher level than you are.
Step 3: have the Dragonwrought Kobold take the Dragon Cohort feat
Repeat ad nauseum
Don't work w/o DM fiat in your favor; the feat uses a closed list of dragons that you can get.


Not really up on PbP much, but a Paladin ...of (S)Laughter//Marshal, with Laughter Paladin//Marshall cohort(s) and some Leadership enhancing feats (Might Makes Right, Rulership, Improved Cohort, Extra Followers, etc.) could be good. Since the Followers could also be Paladins of Laughter, then the -1 to AC aura (at 3rd level) might be good to help the mooks hit better.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
Post by: Maelphaxerazz on March 05, 2017, 06:49:56 PM
I know, I was being humerus.  ;)
There's no bones about it, infinite loops are out of the game.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
Post by: Drammor on March 05, 2017, 08:38:18 PM
It sure would be nice to see someone really focusing on their army.

Chemus, are you interested in playing, or are you just here as a friendly build adviser? I don't mind if you are, of course. I just want to be sure.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
Post by: Chemus on March 05, 2017, 10:51:23 PM
the second; I'm too impatient and erratic for PbP.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
Post by: ketaro on March 06, 2017, 05:32:57 AM
It sure would be nice to see someone really focusing on their army.

I could play an Orc Warlord instead with Extra Followers and a Cohort as a Savage Bard-barian and/or Warrior Skald dip (to deal with that pesky after-Rage fatigue) and Dragon Cohort for an appropriately fear-inducing mount? Maybe throw in Improved Cohort and if you'd allow it, Pathfinder's Extra Cohort? Having x4 the usual number of followers may require extra generals to keep the ranks from getting too unruly. Maybe put a Warchanter somewhere in those cohorts... And Dragon-Fire Inspiration..... Would the Bloodlines variant you're letting us use count for fulfilling DFI's prereq?  :D

Yes, I can play a Warhammer orc horde if you need more army stuff :p

Edit: Would Power of Faerun's Leadership variant stuff be cool? Off the top of my head it's got stuff for not being capped at a 25 leadership score, pre-epic, exclusively in regards to your access to followers.

Edit: My 1 homebrew item request is Os' Savage Trait (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=526.0)  :devil
Title: Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
Post by: Drammor on March 06, 2017, 07:47:07 AM
So, it looks like the interested parties are Vlad, Keta and Maelph. That's awesome! But here's a question... which church are all of you representing?

I could play an Orc Warlord instead with Extra Followers and a Cohort as a Savage Bard-barian and/or Warrior Skald dip (to deal with that pesky after-Rage fatigue) and Dragon Cohort for an appropriately fear-inducing mount? Maybe throw in Improved Cohort and if you'd allow it, Pathfinder's Extra Cohort? Having x4 the usual number of followers may require extra generals to keep the ranks from getting too unruly. Maybe put a Warchanter somewhere in those cohorts... And Dragon-Fire Inspiration..... Would the Bloodlines variant you're letting us use count for fulfilling DFI's prereq?  :D

Yes, I can play a Warhammer orc horde if you need more army stuff :p

Edit: Would Power of Faerun's Leadership variant stuff be cool? Off the top of my head it's got stuff for not being capped at a 25 leadership score, pre-epic, exclusively in regards to your access to followers.

Edit: My 1 homebrew item request is Os' Savage Trait (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=526.0)  :devil

I really like the thought of your wereperson, but if you'd rather go this way, you're certainly welcome to. Just keep in mind that feeding that many followers may be difficult in an isolated zone. Improved Cohort and Extra Cohort are both fine, yes a dragon bloodline qualifies as dragonblooded, Faerun's leadership variant is okay; personally, I would remove the 25-cap anyway, now that I think about it. It just doesn't fit in a warfare-based campaign.

And I'm relieved to say it's either a monster class or this trait, which requires a monster class. Not both, meaning that you can't qualify for that nightmare of a "trait."

Edit: There's nothing stopping you from taking VoP, though, if that's what you want. No alignments means you're free to use feats that are normally alignment-based.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
Post by: ketaro on March 06, 2017, 03:03:08 PM
Taking levels in orc paragon wouldn't count?  :lmao

I enjoy VoP but we not on an orc. The flavor would be all wrong. I was totally picturing a death metal theme here with a black or redskinned orc (due to bloodline choice).

As for the wereperson, I liked the idea too but I really hadn't putuch thought into it beyond the initial idea to even look into a potential build (someone else put forth a build for it instead lol) whereas I kind of jumped all over this orc plan pretty fast and have slot of the possible build already hashed out in my head.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
Post by: Vladeshi on March 06, 2017, 03:20:43 PM
But here's a question... which church are all of you representing?

Orc Horde, Undead swarm... Go Team Evil?

It sure would be nice to see someone really focusing on their army.

Weird yet serious question, as our DM would you say that baboons have hands?
Title: Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
Post by: Drammor on March 06, 2017, 05:15:57 PM
Yeah, with a horde of orcs, undead and slaughterites, you're definitely Team Evil. Which is hilarious, because it means there's no "good" side in this conflict.


Baboons? Iiieeyyyessss? Why does this feel like a trap?
Title: Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
Post by: Vladeshi on March 06, 2017, 05:57:14 PM
Baboons? Iiieeyyyessss? Why does this feel like a trap?

Because if baboons have hands then baboon skeletons have claw attacks as secondary natural weapons.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
Post by: Drammor on March 06, 2017, 07:10:34 PM
Oh, I see. Yeah, that's fine. A little obscure and weird, but fine.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
Post by: ketaro on March 06, 2017, 07:57:38 PM
Okay, how about Paragon (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?)?
I just have to give up my flaws :(
Title: Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
Post by: Chemus on March 07, 2017, 01:51:57 AM
Umm... I'm reconsidering my Interest Check roll: I can get about 5 Cohorts/sub-cohorts, with tons of followers, and if I can (ab)use Necropolitan, I don't have to feed (*some of) them...

Although I failed my Int check regarding the fact that many Leadership affecting feats require... Leadership. What's the time-frame on game start?

Also, what's the stat value for followers, 32 PB, the NPC Tables from the DMG, or what?
Title: Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
Post by: Drammor on March 07, 2017, 10:54:08 AM
Okay, how about Paragon (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?)?
I just have to give up my flaws :(

Uh. Where does that link go?

Umm... I'm reconsidering my Interest Check roll: I can get about 5 Cohorts/sub-cohorts, with tons of followers, and if I can (ab)use Necropolitan, I don't have to feed (*some of) them...

Although I failed my Int check regarding the fact that many Leadership affecting feats require... Leadership. What's the time-frame on game start?

Also, what's the stat value for followers, 32 PB, the NPC Tables from the DMG, or what?

I don't have a schedule on game start at the moment, this is an interest check and not a sign-up. Given that I've met my quota on players, though, I'd expect a tentative beginning about 10 days out, with respects to the idea that I'm moving my family to another apartment in the last half of this month, as well, so the start might be a little rocky.

Followers of 5th level and above may use the elite stat array from the DMG, followers of 4th level and below may use the standard stat array.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
Post by: Chemus on March 07, 2017, 01:09:17 PM
So, build so far:
Necropolitan Draconic Lesser Aasimar (RoF, humanoid, not an outsider, no LA) Paladin of Laughter 9//Marshal 6/Legendary Leader 3
S:16, D:12, C:--, I:10, W:14, C:24 (4th, 8th)

1st: Flaws(Inattentive, Meager Fort), Great Diplomat (OA), Iron Will, EWP Kusari-Gama (DMG)
3rd: Ecclesiarch (EBCS)
6th: Leadership
9th: Rulership (Power of Faerun), Improved Cohort (HoB) (L.Ldr Bonus)
12th: ???

PC's Leadership Score: 28 (presuming power, renown and good treatment) or 30 w/ stronghold

For Homebrew, (or even better as 'standard') I'd like to be able to treat the Substitution levels of, say Champions of Valor, as ACF's instead; trading Detect Evil for Detect Magic, Smite for Favored Enemy Devils (Demons?), Divine Health for Everbright Armor, Warhorse for Divine Spirit (That's actually an ACF in CC, so not Homebrew)

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
Post by: Drammor on March 07, 2017, 01:36:04 PM
That's fine as homebrew. Favored enemy (demons), and don't use the infinite loop. It's the hordes of Orcus vs the hordes of Pale Night. Devils will be in short supply here, but I guess there's nothing stopping you from taking them as a favored enemy o.O. You can have a stronghold if you want to pay for it out of pocket, the rest is good.

I'm still curious which deity's church you're in such good standing with.

Okay, how about Paragon (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?)?
I just have to give up my flaws :(

Found it. Wow is that ever worth not having flaws. I'm generally leery of Oslecamo's material (he seems to balance around TO, I like to balance around tier 3), but let's see how it goes. Sure thing. Take Paragon levels.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
Post by: Chemus on March 07, 2017, 01:48:01 PM
Dunno. Are the PCs supposed to be from the same church, or from 'any' church?

Since alignment and its restrictions are gone, I guess I'd be in St Cuthbert's or Heironeous's Church, given a choice. But this army'd fit almost anywhere.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
Post by: Drammor on March 07, 2017, 01:52:00 PM
All of the PCs and their followers serve the same church.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
Post by: Chemus on March 07, 2017, 02:26:28 PM
Alright, then if this were to get off the ground, we'd need to agree on the Church.

Hmm, Draconic Necropolitan Aasimar 'Paladin', Ketaro's Orc Warlord or Lycanthrope, Vladeshi's Dread Necro., (Malephaxerazz has only said '..."how many followers can I get" build...')

Anyone interested in re-fluffing to 'Team Good' since Drammor said this is a 'Save the World' campaign? How about the church of the Ruby Lady? Wee Jas seems like she'd want to oppose an invasion, is likely fairly pragmatic, and she's OK with undead ain't she?

If not, I'm guessing Erythnul fits the Evil Church pretty well, as we'd all be pretty murderous. Why'd we be sent to stop an invasion of Demons/Undead though?
Title: Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
Post by: Vladeshi on March 07, 2017, 02:40:36 PM
Alright, then if this were to get off the ground, we'd need to agree on the Church.

Anyone interested in re-fluffing to 'Team Good' since Drammor said this is a 'Save the World' campaign? How about the church of the Ruby Lady? Wee Jas seems like she'd want to oppose an invasion, is likely fairly pragmatic, and she's OK with undead ain't she?

One of these days I will play someone who doesn't worship Wee Jas and my real life DM will have a heart attack.
Sounds good, I just mentioned "Team Evil" because with Orc Hordes and undead swarms we fit the archetype well.

I could play an Orc Warlord instead with Extra Followers and a Cohort as a Savage Bard-barian and/or Warrior Skald dip (to deal with that pesky after-Rage fatigue) and Dragon Cohort for an appropriately fear-inducing mount? Maybe throw in Improved Cohort and if you'd allow it, Pathfinder's Extra Cohort? Having x4 the usual number of followers may require extra generals to keep the ranks from getting too unruly. Maybe put a Warchanter somewhere in those cohorts... And Dragon-Fire Inspiration..... Would the Bloodlines variant you're letting us use count for fulfilling DFI's prereq?  :D

Is there room in your Bards build for the Requiem feat and an Alphorn? :devil
Title: Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
Post by: ketaro on March 07, 2017, 03:23:30 PM
We don't have to "re-fluff" to team good. What if team evil is only saving the world because team good got killed? And we need the world to continue to conquer it ourselves later? Or if team good only consists of a single person and the only other people he knows powerful enough to help him here are all his arch-rivals? :p

@Vlad: I was legit playing with the idea of having Undead Leadership as well just so that every last orc can continue having the honor of serving me even in death!

@Drammor: Are Cohorts actually allowed to take Leadership? If so, that's not something I'd have ever realized. I'd love to give my bard Undead Leadership and his own legion of gravediggers  :lmao

Yay, thank you for Paragon~ I made that post on my phone so I guess the linking stuff didn't work out right >.>
I'll figure out a build order when I get home tonight.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
Post by: Maelphaxerazz on March 07, 2017, 03:29:50 PM
Incidentally, the "how many followers I can get build" WAS the Orc Warlord, so now I'd probably play something else.  :tongue Maybe a Chameleon.

So. Religion. I didn't want to specify since I wasn't sure what pantheons we're using, but if we are sticking with Greyhawk ones we might want to follow something more obscure, just for the fun of it.

For example, Wee Jas is indeed a Neutral goddess of death, and thus popular among necromancers (which we will have at least one of). However, another suitable undead-themed deity is the Evening Glory, from Libris Mortis page 17, the goddess of undying love.
(http://www.colton3d.com/syrawiki/images/thumb/e/eb/Evening_Glory_Symbol.jpg/200px-Evening_Glory_Symbol.jpg)

Another idea is following a heretical variant of a good-aligned religion. For example, we could be the Wandering Crusade of Pelor the Burning Hate.

Here's Wikipedia's List of D&D Deities (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Dungeons_%26_Dragons_deities). There are plenty to choose from.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
Post by: Drammor on March 07, 2017, 05:49:16 PM
@Drammor: Are Cohorts actually allowed to take Leadership? If so, that's not something I'd have ever realized. I'd love to give my bard Undead Leadership and his own legion of gravediggers  :lmao

Yay, thank you for Paragon~ I made that post on my phone so I guess the linking stuff didn't work out right >.>
I'll figure out a build order when I get home tonight.

Cohorts are allowed to take Leadership, but that doesn't mean I'll take it lying down. If, heaven forbid, anything should happen to the cohorts supporting those followers while you're in the Exiled City (such as assassination, disintegration, mind control, blackmail, misinformation, kaortic transformation...), you could be facing some splintering among your own faction. :devil
Title: Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
Post by: ketaro on March 07, 2017, 06:19:55 PM
Heh, that sounds fun. I was only considering risking one extra layer of leadership.

I realized I dont have levels for side b before paragon kicks in...Since you have ToB on side b list, would path of war be acceptable as well? Likely a warlord
Title: Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
Post by: Maelphaxerazz on March 07, 2017, 06:35:40 PM
The real question is if followers can take Leadership. There isn't any rule against it anywhere, but technically, followers having Leadership could lead to an infinite Leadership chain (where "infinite" is "until the DM throws a book at you", of course).
Title: Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
Post by: Drammor on March 07, 2017, 07:16:24 PM
Heh, that sounds fun. I was only considering risking one extra layer of leadership.

I realized I dont have levels for side b before paragon kicks in...Since you have ToB on side b list, would path of war be acceptable as well? Likely a warlord

Those guys are great, warlord would be acceptable. :)

The real question is if followers can take Leadership. There isn't any rule against it anywhere, but technically, followers having Leadership could lead to an infinite Leadership chain (where "infinite" is "until the DM throws a book at you", of course).

I know there's no rule against it, but I'd appreciate it if you could refrain. I'm fine with you having "lieutenants," but followers with leadership creates a kind of political environment that I am not prepared for.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
Post by: Chemus on March 07, 2017, 11:08:00 PM
...another suitable undead-themed deity is the Evening Glory, from Libris Mortis page 17, the goddess of undying love.
(http://www.colton3d.com/syrawiki/images/thumb/e/eb/Evening_Glory_Symbol.jpg/200px-Evening_Glory_Symbol.jpg)...

hmm, I don't recall looking at the fluff of LM; I'll have to remedy that. Undying love could truly be obscure enough to be fun.

I vote her, even though her theme doesn't fit Orks[tm] well...



The real question is if followers can take Leadership. There isn't any rule against it anywhere, but technically, followers having Leadership could lead to an infinite Leadership chain (where "infinite" is "until the DM throws a book at you", of course).

I know there's no rule against it, but I'd appreciate it if you could refrain. I'm fine with you having "lieutenants," but followers with leadership creates a kind of political environment that I am not prepared for.

Unless you can get a 6th level follower's leadership score up to 21 (and they don't gain levels, so it has to be built-in), then they don't get 6th level followers, so don't loop to infinity. My calculation is that by giving my, and my Cohort's (and Co-Cohort's), eligible followers Leadership, I gain 6 'loops' of leadership.

As you prefer not, then I'll limit the Leadership feats to just Me, my Cohorts and their eligible Cohorts. That is to the Characters that can be Gestalt.



Undead Leadership is better for me than Leadership, as I'm planning to be using Necropolitans.

And I found this gem of a PrC, regarding Turn resistance: Lady/Lord of the Dead (http://archive.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/dx20021031x). Same prerequisites as Legendary Leader, so that's good, and it's also only 5 levels.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
Post by: Maelphaxerazz on March 08, 2017, 01:03:30 AM
Unless you can get a 6th level follower's leadership score up to 21 (and they don't gain levels, so it has to be built-in), then they don't get 6th level followers, so don't loop to infinity.

Leadership Score 21 at level 6: 6 from level + 5 from Cha modifier (15 base score + 2 racial + 2 from Magic-Blooded template from Dragon 306 + 1 increase at lvl 4), that leaves only 10 left to go. + 2 Great Diplomat (http://www.realmshelps.net/charbuild/feat/Great_Diplomat) feat + 2 Might Makes Right (http://alcyius.com/dndtools/feats/races-of-faerun--23/might-makes-right--1942/index.html) feat, + 2 Ecclesiarch (http://) feat, + 2 Improved Leadership (http://www.realmshelps.net/charbuild/feat/Improved_Leadership) feat, + 2 Natural Leader (Dragon 346) feat. If you are wondering how I got 6 feats, consider: 3 base, + 2 from flaws, +1 bonus feat from a class (for example, Savant level 2, with Savant being appropriately Tier 4).

Therefore, you can in fact have a Leadership score of 21 at level 6.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
Post by: ketaro on March 08, 2017, 03:08:55 AM
Death(Storm) Giant Blooded (Major) Paragon Orc Orc Warlord Warlord  :lmao
Side A: Barbarion 5/Orc Warlord 4
Side B: Warlord 5/Paragon 4
Str: 27 Dex: 10 Con: 18 Int: 10 Wis: 8 Cha: 14
Stats include level-up bonuses, racial bonuses, Paragon bonuses, Major (Death)Storm Giant Bloodline bonuses. (Worth it~)


1st) Warlord Bonus: Power Attack -> Retrained at 2nd to Kyber's Fury (Raging: +2 Str -2 AC cannot end voluntarily)
1st) Daunting Presence
2nd) Bloodline Bonus: Power Attack
3rd) Cleave -> Retrained at 8th to Reckless Rage (Raging: +2 Str +2 Con -2 AC)
6th) Leadership -> Retrained at 8 to Might Makes Right
8th) Orc Warlord Bonus: Leadership
8th) Bloodline Bonus: Cleave
9th) Extra Followers

Base Leadership Score: 19 (23 if Renown, Fairness/Generosity, Power; 25 if Stronghold/Base of Operations)

So I may have somehow missed that the 3rd level of Orc Warlord grants Leadership as a bonus feat. So either retraining an earlier grab of Leadership or let picking up any feat with Leadership as a prereq if already had Leadership. Either way, somehow both Leadership and Might Makes Right gets wedged in their, it just changes the order :p

I sacked Dragon Cohort upon realizing this really only gives you something on par with a familiar. In that's it's god damn tiny. I'll just steal a giant flying monster to ride on for thematic purposes instead~ Maybe the necromancer can build me a zombie dragon in exchange for giving him a bard with Requiem & an Alphorn  :devil
Title: Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
Post by: Chemus on March 08, 2017, 11:53:35 AM
...Therefore, you can in fact have a Leadership score of 21 at level 6.

Sure, but make sure that you have the prerequisites prior to taking the feats (Imp. Leadership, Might Makes Right). In fact, when I mentioned potentially having a 'loop' of Leadershipped followers, I hadn't gotten there. I think you'd have to DCFS some earlier feats in order to get...

Magic Blooded? So Draconic Magic-Blooded Lesser Aasimar have +2 Str, +2 Con, +6 Cha, and LA +1? I soooo often neglect Dragon material that I forget that it exists.

I also didn't know that Leader feats bump Leadership scores by 1.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
Post by: Drammor on March 08, 2017, 10:31:51 PM
I hope you guys are bringing your coats, because I've been doing nothing but building NPCs for the last two days. It's going to rain weals and woes for sessions.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
Post by: Chemus on March 08, 2017, 11:54:45 PM
Doh! and I don't think augury is on my list.

So, I neglected Undead Leadership; are you OK with both Leadersihp and Undead Leadership on the chracters?. How does UL interact with Extra Followers ('You can lead twice as many followers as indicated for your Leadership score...')? And how about Improved Cohort ('...maximum level of the cohort you gain from the Leadership feat...is one lower than your character level.')?

I'm assuming that the first feat doubles both, but that the second feat doesn't influence the Undead Leadership Cohort, only the Leadership Cohort.

I'm looking at Drakkensteed ACF for flying Paladins. If the Undead Leadership + Leadership feats each double from extra followers, then I'd have about 30 flying mounted pally's for 10-12 hours per day, each with spirited charge and masterwork or better lances. If not, then I have ~25, plus my character.

Is there going to be a lot of above-ground fighting? Otherwise Underdark Knight looks promising.

And here's a revised build
(click to show/hide)

Title: Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
Post by: Drammor on March 09, 2017, 12:39:31 AM
I'm fine with both Leadership and Undead Leadership on characters. To be a bit transparent, it's a trick I've used on some of the villains in the campaign. But you should note that taking UL has a negative impact on your living Leadership score. Improved Cohort is also fine, and does work the way you guessed.

There will be a lot of above-ground, and indoors fighting. Underground fighting will be rather limited. And that's a nice little cavalry unit you've got there. Hopefully they'll survive.

Edit: Ah, and remember to check back on the OP from time to time. I've been updating it with information.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
Post by: ketaro on March 09, 2017, 01:24:45 AM
Do Cohorts and Followers get Traits & Flaws?
Title: Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
Post by: Drammor on March 09, 2017, 09:58:44 AM
Cohorts do, and followers of 5th level and above, but followers of 4th level and below do not.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
Post by: Maelphaxerazz on March 09, 2017, 12:17:47 PM
you should note that taking UL has a negative impact on your living Leadership score.
How does that work? Do we apply Undead Leadership's modifiers to both the leadership scores (i.e. taking Leadership and Undead Leadership is like Undead Leadership x2)?
Title: Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
Post by: Drammor on March 09, 2017, 01:23:49 PM
"Your leadership score is treated as 2 higher than it otherwise would be for the purposes of attracting undead followers and treated as 4 lower than it otherwise would be for the purposes of attracting living followers."

So, your Leadership score gets -4 if you have UL, and your Undead Leadership score gets +2.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
Post by: Chemus on March 09, 2017, 01:50:27 PM
I read the sentence to say that the penalty should impact only if your followers are living; undead followers, which should be available under Leadership too, would not be diminished, but bolstered. Effectively 2 sets of Undead (say, Necropolitan) followers at +2. Or are you saying that Leadership can't attract intelligent Undead followers/Cohorts, so would be automatically diminished?

My stated plan has been to have Necropolitan (+0 LA), Magic Blooded (+0 LA), Lesser Aasimar (+0 LA) Cohorts and followers. For those starting above 2nd level, I was planning on having Draconic Templated (+1 LA) Cohorts and Followers.

[Edit] Upon consideration, the Half Nymph Template (DR 313, p95, +2 LA) instead of the Draconic Template looks rather promising for my PC and any Cohorts (and Followers who begin play at 6th or higher); +2 to Dex, Int and Wis, +4 to Cha, minor version of Nymph's Blinding Beauty (causes shaken in Humanoids). Loses +2 to str, but that's not necessarily too bad, and allows reflow of the PB chars' stats around it (dex & wis, mostly)...

My PC and Cohorts would have any un-bought-off LA on the Marshal/Legendary Leader side of the Gestalt, so PC is at full, Cohorts at LA 1 until 9th.[/Edit]

Having undead followers is why I have L. of the Dead on my char and my Cohorts over 6th level; it boosts Turn resistance for the character, and also bolsters Turn Resistance for 'Undead allies within 30 feet...'
Title: Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
Post by: ketaro on March 09, 2017, 03:13:19 PM
So how's the adding templates to PC work here? We get up to +2 for free or something?
Title: Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
Post by: Maelphaxerazz on March 09, 2017, 05:39:24 PM
One question: approximately how long, level-wise, do you plan the campaign to be? It is important for planning ahead for prestige classes: some are worth pursuing mostly for their capstone, and thus the choice depends on what level we expect to finish on.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
Post by: Drammor on March 09, 2017, 05:47:54 PM
So how's the adding templates to PC work here? We get up to +2 for free or something?

They're not free. Nothing is free. :3 Level adjustment fills in on one side of the gestalt, the same side that you use for prcs and racial hit dice. If you choose to buy off a level adjustment pre-gameplay, the requisite XP comes out of your XP total, which can decrease your ECL until you have enough XP again.

One question: approximately how long, level-wise, do you plan the campaign to be? It is important for planning ahead for prestige classes: some are worth pursuing mostly for their capstone, and thus the choice depends on what level we expect to finish on.

Per the OP, I'm planning to go up to level 15. We might not stop there, because I don't have everything charted out mathemagically, but that's the target.

Semi-relatedly, what are you guys planning to do for healing? Leave it up to the bard?

I read the sentence to say that the penalty should impact only if your followers are living; undead followers, which should be available under Leadership too, would not be diminished, but bolstered. Effectively 2 sets of Undead (say, Necropolitan) followers at +2. Or are you saying that Leadership can't attract intelligent Undead followers/Cohorts, so would be automatically diminished?

My stated plan has been to have Necropolitan (+0 LA), Magic Blooded (+0 LA), Lesser Aasimar (+0 LA) Cohorts and followers. For those starting above 2nd level, I was planning on having Draconic Templated (+1 LA) Cohorts and Followers.

[Edit] Upon consideration, the Half Nymph Template (DR 313, p95, +2 LA) instead of the Draconic Template looks rather promising for my PC and any Cohorts (and Followers who begin play at 6th or higher); +2 to Dex, Int and Wis, +4 to Cha, minor version of Nymph's Blinding Beauty (causes shaken in Humanoids). Loses +2 to str, but that's not necessarily too bad, and allows reflow of the PB chars' stats around it (dex & wis, mostly)...

My PC and Cohorts would have any un-bought-off LA on the Marshal/Legendary Leader side of the Gestalt, so PC is at full, Cohorts at LA 1 until 9th.[/Edit]

Having undead followers is why I have L. of the Dead on my char and my Cohorts over 6th level; it boosts Turn resistance for the character, and also bolsters Turn Resistance for 'Undead allies within 30 feet...'

I, uh... hm. Had an oversight. Sure, go ahead with undead followers under normal leadership. Necropolitan usually costs a life level, but that gets confusing, so I'll just skip over even thinking about that part for sanity's sake.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
Post by: Maelphaxerazz on March 09, 2017, 06:12:58 PM
Semi-relatedly, what are you guys planning to do for healing? Leave it up to the bard?
Healer (http://alcyius.com/dndtools/classes/healer/index.html) is considered Tier 5, and thus can be taken by followers. Thus, our followers can take care of healing.

EDIT: also, it looks like many of us might be undead, in which case the necromancer takes care of healing.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
Post by: ketaro on March 09, 2017, 06:22:17 PM
Just have a cadre of orcs for medical purposes!

And considering a bard/warlock cohort.

We can have our equipment crafted pregame?
Title: Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
Post by: Drammor on March 09, 2017, 06:26:41 PM
You can craft gear pre-game. I was just working on that for the NPCs, as it happens. :banghead
Title: Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
Post by: Maelphaxerazz on March 09, 2017, 06:39:49 PM
How does reducing level adjustment work when level adjustment is kept on one side of the gestalt? Does a person get a class level in the LA's place as soon as one buys the LA off?

EDIT: nvm, I now realise what happens, as the XP cost would cause him to drop a level. So a Fighter 3//Ranger 2/Divine Minion 1 who buys off his LA would become a Fighter 2//Ranger 2 that works like a Fighter 2//Ranger 2 Divine Minion. I think.

EDITEDIT: Thought Bottles make buying off LA hilarious.

Sidenote: Organizations/affiliations are allowed in this game, but I found a funny thing about this subsystem: one can actually be part of many affiliations, but you can only benefit from one at a time... and you can switch benefits once per day. This can lead to really exotic backstories, as one tries to justify a high score in every affiliation.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
Post by: ketaro on March 09, 2017, 08:59:05 PM
And do cohorts have their own wbl or am I taking from my own for them?

If they have their own, is it the PC wbl chart or the npc one?

Same for followers?
Title: Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
Post by: Drammor on March 09, 2017, 10:52:13 PM
Cohorts and followers have their own wealth by level. They use the NPC charts. Characters may not share their wealth with one another, regardless of whether they are PCs or NPCs.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
Post by: ketaro on March 09, 2017, 11:18:30 PM
But can a cohort pregame craft for me using my own money?
Title: Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
Post by: Drammor on March 09, 2017, 11:24:59 PM
Yes, they can.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
Post by: Chemus on March 10, 2017, 01:35:09 AM
Cool, that's what I'd assumed re: WBL (NPC Gear Value, DMG p127)

I'd forgotten the 'only 1 PrC per gestalt level' rule. I'll have to fix that in my build.

And yeah, I'd never really dealt with the lovely math regarding LA Buy-Off. I'll have to fix that too. Having looked it up and basically checked the generic math, in single-class, buying 1 LA off evens out by about 13th. The loss of both sides of the gestalt for even just 1 LA doesn't seem worth it...

How does buy-off interact with gestalt?

I'm tempted to go Evolved (as the characters' 6th levels) Necropolitan Magic Blooded Draconic Lesser Aasimar, for LA +2, and just not buy it off for my PC and Cohorts. As far as I can tell, they'd only qualify for contagion, haste or see invisibility when they evolved (6HD equaling 3rd level or lower spells).

As LA Buyoff is such a pain, for the followers, I'll just go Necr. MB Lesser Aasimar.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
Post by: Rekmond on March 10, 2017, 10:19:29 AM
Ok, for my entry into the lot I have an idea, and a question or two

at very basic level

Dvati   Crusader/Barbarian

you mentioned Pathfinder material as possible, so I'd like to ask about the Barbarian archetype Invulnerable Rager
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/barbarian/archetypes/paizo-barbarian-archetypes/invulnerable-rager/

And for a template, would the White Dragonspawn be out of line?
Title: Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
Post by: Drammor on March 10, 2017, 12:21:12 PM
How does buy-off interact with gestalt?

One of the wonderfully undefined things in 3.5, here it works just as Maelph described.

...the XP cost would cause him to drop a level. So a Fighter 3//Ranger 2/Divine Minion 1 who buys off his LA would become a Fighter 2//Ranger 2 that works like a Fighter 2//Ranger 2 Divine Minion.

White dragonspawn dvati Crusader//Invulnerable Rager Barbarian is okay with me. Quite the battle turtle, too.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
Post by: Chemus on March 10, 2017, 02:04:13 PM
Fixed Build, Unequipped: Evolved Necropolitan Magic Blooded Draconic Lesser Aasimar
S: 18 (6pts, +4 Rac), D: 12 (4pts), C: -- (0pts, +2 Rac), I: 10 (2pts), W: 12 (4pts, +2, -2 Rac), C: 26 (16pts, +6 Rac, 4th, 8th)

Paladin of Slaughter 9//Draconic 1/Marshal 2/Fighter 2/Evolved 1/Legendary Leader 3
10 Cohorts: 1 8th, 1 7th, 2 6th, 2 5th, 4 4th, each using lower level version of same build.

Followers numbers TBD; ~50 5th+ (Summoning a Drakkensteed Mount for 10+h/day, Spirited Charge)

Commander Aura: Melee Commander (+1 melee AB for lower ranked allies in 30')
Lesser Marshal Aura: Over the Top (+Cha (8) Damage on a charge for self and allies in 60'.)
Greater Marshal Aura: Motivate Attack (+1 Melee AB for self and allies in 60')

Lance Charge Damage for PC (two handed): 3d8+42 piercing, +1d8+14 when diving 30'/10' down.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
Post by: Rekmond on March 10, 2017, 02:11:41 PM
How does buy-off interact with gestalt?

One of the wonderfully undefined things in 3.5, here it works just as Maelph described.

...the XP cost would cause him to drop a level. So a Fighter 3//Ranger 2/Divine Minion 1 who buys off his LA would become a Fighter 2//Ranger 2 that works like a Fighter 2//Ranger 2 Divine Minion.

confuses me too. So let me see, my first buyoff at level 6 would cost 7K xp.

Does that mean that I am 7K xp from level 9, where I will pay 9K xp to stay at level 8 until I earn another 9K?
Title: Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
Post by: Drammor on March 10, 2017, 02:59:01 PM
If you bought off at level 6, it cost you 7kxp, putting you at level 8 now, 7kxp short of 9.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
Post by: SorO_Lost on March 10, 2017, 03:19:38 PM
So I know you wanted four and you may have a 5th, but I suppose if a Human Mystic Ranger 4 / Bone Knight 5 // Dread Necromancer 8 / LA 1(?) with Toughness, Troll-Blooded, Extend Spell, Persist Spell, Undead Battery, Corpsecrafter, & Undead Leadership would work I'll toss my hat in as a back up.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
Post by: Drammor on March 10, 2017, 04:21:05 PM
I'll accept that backup :V I love the Bone Knight. But Undead Battery is, as you yourself have said, a bit insane. How about capping it at your HD/day?

Edit: This isn't a requirement, but some advice. Don't spend too much time on the followers/cohorts of 4th level and below. The game is calibrated for 4 level 9 gestalt PCs. Anything too low-level can generally be thought of as fodder, and it will be treated as such.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
Post by: SorO_Lost on March 10, 2017, 09:26:58 PM
I'll accept that backup :V I love the Bone Knight. But Undead Battery is, as you yourself have said, a bit insane. How about capping it at your HD/day?
I figured it might have been banned, the cap is fine.

Looked the Feat up, it requires 6th level Spells & Greater Spell Focus so it can't be taken anyway.
I still like the idea of a Bone Knight through, well I suppose I have plenty of time to think ;)

Title: Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
Post by: ketaro on March 10, 2017, 10:29:31 PM
Oh my gosh can all of my orc casters be muscle-mages?
Yanno, that Lost Tradition feat.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
Post by: Chemus on March 10, 2017, 11:51:00 PM
Since I can only have PrC's on one side of the gestalt at a time, how does a +1 Caster Level PrC (The Lord/Lady of the Dead (http://archive.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/dx20021031x), for this Character) interact with Paladin if they're opposite each other? Since Paladin casting ain't great shakes anyway, does it just improve it? Perhaps since the caster level only increases every other level for paladin, they stack, but the spells per day don't?

[Definitely OT] That said, I find no rules on what does happen with a Wizard 20//Rogue 1/Shadowcraft Mage 5/Shadowcrafter 9/Nightmare Spinner 5. Does he get any boost to casting from the second side of the gestalt, or is that covered by the 'Class features that two classes share (such as uncanny dodge) accrue at the rate of the faster class' rule? [/OT]

Back to topic, I still like Malephaxerazz's (?) suggestion of Evening Glory as the Church we're from. Even the Orks could be explained as the only folks who'd tolerate the church; though it's awfully touchy-feely for them. SorO's Bone Knight would fit the theme rather well as well.

[Edit] Since they're weenies anyway, my 1st-4th followers (not the 4th Cohorts) will likely be warlocks with Eldritch Spear (250'), Summon Swarm (only 25-35' range, but can cause bleeding or poison), and See the Unseen(?). I'm considering Necropolitan Sparrow Hengeyokai as the race, unless you object to Fine Sized 23 Dex sharpshooters. Otherwise Necropolitan Anthropomorphic Ravens would work. [/Edit]
Title: Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
Post by: ketaro on March 11, 2017, 12:31:43 AM
Well maybe my orcs are of a more macabre variety? Yanno, wearing our enemies corpses into the next battle. Wanting a giant flying zombie dragon from my necromancer buddies. Having an orchestra of barbarians that scream at dead people in harmonious unison.

I realized I changed my plan for DFI on my main PC so I'ma switch over to another bloodline. Or none at all. I'm suddenly realizing I can't figure out how the hell bloodlines work. Yay.

Edit: Are they basically 'null' levels that you pay exp for to get the bonuses for? As compared  to LA which gives you everything upfront and you can pay exp later. Maybe a little moot on remembering OP says they only incur a penalty to gained exp rather than having to 'purchase' the levels.....Anyways....
Title: Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
Post by: Chemus on March 11, 2017, 12:45:28 AM
Re: bloodlines, Drammor actually fixed the issue by having them cost 10, 15 or 20% XP for Minor, Intermediate, and Major respectively.

You just get the listed stuff at the listed levels and forget about the Not-LA LA that most of the rules are blathering about.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
Post by: ketaro on March 11, 2017, 12:50:14 AM
Cool, thank you thank you. Yeah, once I reread it enough times to click, I realized, yeah, moot question hahah.

Anyways....

Is UA the only book with Bloodlines?
Does it count as homebrew to use UA's own rules to fashion together a bloodline not already charted out? :p
Title: Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
Post by: Drammor on March 11, 2017, 12:58:01 AM
Re: caster level+ and gestalt; you just need to look at benefits of gaining a level on a by-level basis. The short answer is that getting +1 caster level at the same time as a level in a caster class doesn't accelerate your caster level.

Conceptually, the slightly longer answer is that gestalt only gives you the benefits of the things that don't overlap. +1 caster level overlaps +1 caster level the same way that d10 HD overlaps d6 HD, so you only get one of them. Technically it can be either one, since the values are equal, but gestalt only gives you the better or disparate of two class levels' gains at any given level.

Re: new bloodlines, yes.

Title: Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
Post by: ketaro on March 11, 2017, 01:03:27 AM
Yes what?  :huh
Title: Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
Post by: Drammor on March 11, 2017, 01:07:13 AM
Yes it counts as homebrew. But that shouldn't stop you from charting out a moderate gray render bloodline or a major kraken bloodline just to see if I'll go for it.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
Post by: ketaro on March 11, 2017, 01:10:40 AM
Haha, oh well. I'd rather keep my Paragon.

Honestly I want to just go for Storm Giant Major Bloodline because it'd give me both Power Attack & Cleave so I can free up two feat slots for...real feats -_-'
But can I just change the name? The party is going so undead focused so I'm all like "Isn't a Death Giant a thing? Oooooh, that'd be cool."

Title: Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
Post by: Drammor on March 11, 2017, 12:56:53 PM
Of course, fluff is pretty mutable.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
Post by: Drammor on March 11, 2017, 01:09:51 PM
[Edit] Since they're weenies anyway, my 1st-4th followers (not the 4th Cohorts) will likely be warlocks with Eldritch Spear (250'), Summon Swarm (only 25-35' range, but can cause bleeding or poison), and See the Unseen(?). I'm considering Necropolitan Sparrow Hengeyokai as the race, unless you object to Fine Sized 23 Dex sharpshooters. Otherwise Necropolitan Anthropomorphic Ravens would work. [/Edit]

You do know that this whole exercise is supposed to be medium op, right? :P I'd prefer the ravens over the swarm of fine-sized warlock death, if you don't mind. :)
Title: Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
Post by: Vladeshi on March 11, 2017, 04:07:45 PM
Wow, I am gone for a few days and the Optimization level goes crazy. :p

Since Aasimar Paragon is not a thing I would like to know if either I would be allowed to use Human Paragon or this (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Aasimar_Paragon_%283.5e_Racial_Paragon_Class%29) to count as my homebrew allowed.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
Post by: Chemus on March 11, 2017, 05:44:47 PM
...I'd prefer the ravens over the swarm of fine-sized warlock death, if you don't mind. :)
Ah well, I was hoping that it'd be otherwise, but not very realistically.

Honestly, thematically, the ravens fit better, but I mis-remembered how bad their flight is. Necropolitan Anthropomorphic Bats, though they get no Dex bump, might be better. I'd prefer to re-fluff to ravens, they fit the death theme better and are 'prettier' (a la evening Glory).
Title: Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
Post by: SorO_Lost on March 11, 2017, 05:46:43 PM
Wow, I am gone for a few days and the Optimization level goes crazy. :p
Chemus sort of started it on page 2 :p

Here is the current status.
Ketaro: Major Red Dragon Blooded Orc, Barbarian 5 / Orc Warlord 4 // Warlord 5 / Paragon 4
Chemus: Evolved Necropolitan Magic Blooded Draconic Lesser Aasimar, Paladin of Slaughter 9 // Draconic 1 / Marshal 2 / Fighter 2 / Evolved 1 / Legendary Leader 3
Rekmond: White Dragonspawn Dvati, Crusader ? / PF's Invulnerable Rager Barbarian ?
Vladeshi: Lesser Aasmir, Aasimar Paragon Dread Necromancer ? // Bard or Swordsage ?
Maelphaxerazz: ?
------------------------------
Nanshork: Marshal Homebrew X // ?
SorO_Lost: Likely Magic-Blooded Human, Mystic Ranger 4 / Bone Knight 5 // Dread Necromancer 8 / Fire-Souled(?) 1

Feel free to swipe Bone Knight build if you like. Maybe Drammor will allow a Dread's Lesser Undead Battery (as undead battery but 1 use per hd per day, requires 4th level spells & dread necro 6th) or something. Then you can Persist Fireshield(cold) so really you only have to worry about Acid damage from hurting you, plus all of those paperworknightmare lovely undead that get 12.5hp/hd should last awhile.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
Post by: Rekmond on March 11, 2017, 06:56:06 PM
Rekmond: White Dragonspawn Dvati, Crusader ? / PF's Invulnerable Rager Barbarian ?

I have hence added Major Fey Blooded to this

so

Major Fey Blooded White Dragonspawn Dvait, Crusader 8 / Invulnerable Rager Barbarian 8

I might dip a level or two on the Crusader side of things...but not currently planning on it.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
Post by: Chemus on March 11, 2017, 07:24:01 PM
SorO, having looked myself (I was gonna add it instead of Evolved), Crystalkeep had Fire Souled incorrect; it's LA +3 (at least the version in Dragon 315)

And my optimization had initially been trying to not have to do the paperwork of Army logistics. The Aerial Ubercharger Cavalry just sort of crept up on me, and the flying monkeys warlocks are an afterthought to give my mooks a chance at relevance.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
Post by: ketaro on March 11, 2017, 07:27:49 PM
Revised build

Death(Storm) Giant Blooded (Major) Paragon Orc Orc Warlord Warlord  :lmao
Side A: Barbarion 5/Orc Warlord 4
Side B: Warlord 5/Paragon 4
Str: 27 Dex: 10 Con: 18 Int: 10 Wis: 8 Cha: 14
Stats include level-up bonuses, racial bonuses, Paragon bonuses, Major (Death)Storm Giant Bloodline bonuses. (Worth it~)


1st) Warlord Bonus: Power Attack -> Retrained at 2nd to Kyber's Fury (Raging: +2 Str -2 AC cannot end voluntarily)
1st) Daunting Presence
2nd) Bloodline Bonus: Power Attack
3rd) Cleave -> Retrained at 8th to Reckless Rage (Raging: +2 Str +2 Con -2 AC)
6th) Leadership -> Retrained at 8 to Might Makes Right
8th) Orc Warlord Bonus: Leadership
8th) Bloodline Bonus: Cleave
9th) Extra Followers
Title: Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
Post by: Vladeshi on March 11, 2017, 07:44:00 PM
Feel free to swipe Bone Knight build if you like.

I will admit to loving that build but my plans were

Necropolitan Magic Blooded Lesser Aasimar
Swordsage 4/Dread Witch 3/Pale Master 2//Dread Necromancer 8/Aasimar Paragon 1
Str:10 Dex:14 Con:- Int:14 Wis:10 Cha:24(4th & 8th)
with the next 2 levels to finish off Dread Witch and Aasimar Paragon

Feats I was thinking

1st) Dreadful Wrath
1st) Skill Focus(Knowledge(Religion))(Flaw TBD)
1st) Corpsecrafter(Flaw TBD)
3rd) Lifesense
6th) Undead Leadership(again obviously)
9th) Leadership

Trait: Spellgifted(Necromancy)   :P
Unnatural Aura(Dragon 356)

Cohorts I was thinking

Necropolitan (Race TBD)
Crusader//Warlock or Warmage

Second cohort TBD

Death(Storm) Giant Blooded (Major) Paragon Orc Orc Warlord Warlord  :lmao

Will you be taking Orc Paragon to finish it off?  :lol
Title: Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
Post by: ketaro on March 11, 2017, 10:19:38 PM
@Vlad: I was looking at it just to get rid of my Light Sensitivity  :lmao

@Drammor: I just looked at the NPC Gear Value chart and is that really the chart that Cohorts use for their equipment? I can understand for followers but....7,200 gp for a 7th level Cohort? -_-'
Title: Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
Post by: Vladeshi on March 11, 2017, 10:27:52 PM
@Vlad: I was looking at it just to get rid of my Light Sensitivity  :lmao

Sundark Goggles from Races of the Dragon removes it for 10 gp with the bonus of your orc having a pair of killer shades. :cool
Title: Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
Post by: ketaro on March 11, 2017, 10:38:59 PM
Oh, thank you :D
Edit: Ohmygosh I just started picturing an entire orc horde charging into battle all wearing some sick shades  :lmao

@Drammor again: I know OP only said some Pathfinder and I guess I'm looking at a bit of some Pathfinder...Anyways I get a bonus teamwork feat (which can also be granted to nearby allies) and I wanted to check and see if I needed to keep getting "okays" on each specific instance of PF content?  :tongue

I was looking at picking up Phalanx Fighting (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/phalanx-fighter-teamwork/) but was wondering how'd it work since you kicked alignments to the curb for this game. I was also looking at literally my entire army running this feat.....

Can Cohorts & Followers also have bloodlines?

Edit: I came across a weapon in Dragon Magazine (I think...113?) called the Executioner's Mace and can I have this?
Title: Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
Post by: Vladeshi on March 11, 2017, 11:32:25 PM
Necropolitan usually costs a life level, but that gets confusing, so I'll just skip over even thinking about that part for sanity's sake.

I don't know how I missed you saying this, so I guess my build will be changing some.

As yet another question, am I allowed to start with undead in my Animate Dead pool or will I have to fill it as we go?

Hit Points: Max at 1st level, average per level, rounded down.

Does this apply to followers and undead I make as well?

Edit: I came across a weapon in Dragon Magazine (I think...113?) called the Executioner's Mace and can I have this?

It is in Dungeon #135 on page 61.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
Post by: ketaro on March 12, 2017, 12:48:12 AM
Close enough, thank you xD

Further question.

Does Protection from X not work in this game then?
Title: Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
Post by: Chemus on March 12, 2017, 03:55:20 AM
Re-edited to complete Equipment (probably) and added leadership scores for PC and Cohorts; I got concerned about me and my Cavalry getting turned/rebuked, so switched L. Leader for L of the Dead. I'll finish L. of the Dead, then take L. Leader from 12th to 15th
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Title: Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
Post by: Drammor on March 12, 2017, 03:52:42 PM
Wow, I am gone for a few days and the Optimization level goes crazy. :p

Since Aasimar Paragon is not a thing I would like to know if either I would be allowed to use Human Paragon or this (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Aasimar_Paragon_%283.5e_Racial_Paragon_Class%29) to count as my homebrew allowed.

I know what you mean. @_@

And wow, something on dandwiki that isn't crazy broken. Sure, go for it.

Ah well, I was hoping that it'd be otherwise, but not very realistically.

Honestly, thematically, the ravens fit better, but I mis-remembered how bad their flight is. Necropolitan Anthropomorphic Bats, though they get no Dex bump, might be better. I'd prefer to re-fluff to ravens, they fit the death theme better and are 'prettier' (a la evening Glory).

Refluffing is fine, but you know that if they're somehow grounded, they'll be all but crippled, right? 5 move makes entire regiments sitting ducks.

Chemus sort of started it on page 2 :p

Here is the current status.
Ketaro: Major Red Dragon Blooded Orc, Barbarian 5 / Orc Warlord 4 // Warlord 5 / Paragon 4
Chemus: Evolved Necropolitan Magic Blooded Draconic Lesser Aasimar, Paladin of Slaughter 9 // Draconic 1 / Marshal 2 / Fighter 2 / Evolved 1 / Legendary Leader 3
Rekmond: White Dragonspawn Dvati, Crusader ? / PF's Invulnerable Rager Barbarian ?
Vladeshi: Lesser Aasmir, Aasimar Paragon Dread Necromancer ? // Bard or Swordsage ?
Maelphaxerazz: ?
------------------------------
Nanshork: Marshal Homebrew X // ?
SorO_Lost: Likely Magic-Blooded Human, Mystic Ranger 4 / Bone Knight 5 // Dread Necromancer 8 / Fire-Souled(?) 1

Feel free to swipe Bone Knight build if you like. Maybe Drammor will allow a Dread's Lesser Undead Battery (as undead battery but 1 use per hd per day, requires 4th level spells & dread necro 6th) or something. Then you can Persist Fireshield(cold) so really you only have to worry about Acid damage from hurting you, plus all of those paperworknightmare lovely undead that get 12.5hp/hd should last awhile.

Jeez, Chemus. That template stacking... anyway, no on the lesser undead battery. The regular one becomes available during the campaign's lifetime; you're welcome to look forward to it.

@Drammor: I just looked at the NPC Gear Value chart and is that really the chart that Cohorts use for their equipment? I can understand for followers but....7,200 gp for a 7th level Cohort? -_-'

That's the one! Although if you're not even trying, you can easily stretch that as far as 14,400. I believe someone's got a warlock cohort.

@Drammor again: I know OP only said some Pathfinder and I guess I'm looking at a bit of some Pathfinder...Anyways I get a bonus teamwork feat (which can also be granted to nearby allies) and I wanted to check and see if I needed to keep getting "okays" on each specific instance of PF content?  :tongue

Unfortunately for us both, yes.

Quote
I was looking at picking up Phalanx Fighting (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/phalanx-fighter-teamwork/) but was wondering how'd it work since you kicked alignments to the curb for this game. I was also looking at literally my entire army running this feat.....

Can Cohorts & Followers also have bloodlines?

Edit: I came across a weapon in Dragon Magazine (I think...113?) called the Executioner's Mace and can I have this?

We have no alignment. Die, Alignment, die.

When battling terrifying hordes of enemies, you find strength in your shield brothers and sisters.
Prerequisites: Base attack bonus +3, good alignment.
Benefit: You gain a sacred bonus to your AC against the attacks of evil creatures and a sacred bonus to saves against the spells and abilities of evil creatures equal to the number of adjacent allies who also have this feat.

I only feel lucky that it does require BAB +3, meaning that thousands of troops won't have this ability.

The PCs are Special. Cohorts and followers may not have bloodlines.

Yeah, you're good on the executioner's mace.

As yet another question, am I allowed to start with undead in my Animate Dead pool or will I have to fill it as we go?

Does this apply to followers and undead I make as well?

Fill it as you go, and yes.

Close enough, thank you xD

Further question.

Does Protection from X not work in this game then?

Right. Spells and effects dependent on alignment, such as Protection from Evil, simply do not exist in this version of the game. There's no alignment for them to protect you from, and no alignment for them to have.

(Added 2 CL, when Paladin failed to?)

(I'd like to pick haste, and the Template says you can pick or roll...)

Text is supposed to trump table; should I use that here? If so, I'd like to keep the ravens...

Okay; then pick; text does trump table, go ahead and keep the ravens.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
Post by: Garryl on March 12, 2017, 04:32:46 PM
Quote
I was looking at picking up Phalanx Fighting (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/phalanx-fighter-teamwork/) but was wondering how'd it work since you kicked alignments to the curb for this game. I was also looking at literally my entire army running this feat.....

Can Cohorts & Followers also have bloodlines?

Edit: I came across a weapon in Dragon Magazine (I think...113?) called the Executioner's Mace and can I have this?

We have no alignment. Die, Alignment, die.

When battling terrifying hordes of enemies, you find strength in your shield brothers and sisters.
Prerequisites: Base attack bonus +3, good alignment.
Benefit: You gain a sacred bonus to your AC against the attacks of evil creatures and a sacred bonus to saves against the spells and abilities of evil creatures equal to the number of adjacent allies who also have this feat.

I only feel lucky that it does require BAB +3, meaning that thousands of troops won't have this ability.

The PCs are Special. Cohorts and followers may not have bloodlines.

Yeah, you're good on the executioner's mace.
Quote
Close enough, thank you xD

Further question.

Does Protection from X not work in this game then?

Right. Spells and effects dependent on alignment, such as Protection from Evil, simply do not exist in this version of the game. There's no alignment for them to protect you from, and no alignment for them to have.

Which is it? Do things that function against a specific alignment do nothing or do they apply against everything? Is it a case-by-case basis thing?
Title: Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
Post by: phaedrusxy on March 12, 2017, 05:25:31 PM
The best parts of Protection from Evil have nothing to do with alignment, anyway (protection from mind control/possession).

(I don't have a dog in this fight... just chiming in from the popcorn gallery :P)
Title: Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
Post by: Vladeshi on March 12, 2017, 05:30:18 PM
Since Aasimar Paragon is not a thing I would like to know if either I would be allowed to use Human Paragon or this (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Aasimar_Paragon_%283.5e_Racial_Paragon_Class%29) to count as my homebrew allowed.

And wow, something on dandwiki that isn't crazy broken. Sure, go for it.

Thank you.

As yet another question, am I allowed to start with undead in my Animate Dead pool or will I have to fill it as we go?

Fill it as you go.

That is what I was expecting.

I'll just steal a giant flying monster to ride on for thematic purposes instead~ Maybe the necromancer can build me a zombie dragon in exchange for giving him a bard with Requiem & an Alphorn  :devil

I won't be starting with one, but I can earmark the first dragon we kill for you. :D

Title: Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
Post by: Maelphaxerazz on March 12, 2017, 09:12:26 PM
Here is the current status.
Ketaro: Major Red Dragon Blooded Orc, Barbarian 5 / Orc Warlord 4 // Warlord 5 / Paragon 4
Chemus: Evolved Necropolitan Magic Blooded Draconic Lesser Aasimar, Paladin of Slaughter 9 // Draconic 1 / Marshal 2 / Fighter 2 / Evolved 1 / Legendary Leader 3
Rekmond: White Dragonspawn Dvati, Crusader ? / PF's Invulnerable Rager Barbarian ?
Vladeshi: Lesser Aasmir, Aasimar Paragon Dread Necromancer ? // Bard or Swordsage ?
Maelphaxerazz: ?
------------------------------
Nanshork: Marshal Homebrew X // ?
SorO_Lost: Likely Magic-Blooded Human, Mystic Ranger 4 / Bone Knight 5 // Dread Necromancer 8 / Fire-Souled(?) 1
Gosh, I am way behind everybody else, aren't I  :o
You can put me down as a Venerable Dragonwrought Kobold Factotum 9 // Dragon Warlord* 5/Chameleon 4 for now.

*that'll be my one homebrew. It is actually just Orc Warlord without me being an orc, with Dragonblood replacing the Rage prereq, and with the Final Rage capstone replaced with Dread Pirate's "Pirate King" capstone (except it is renamed Dragon King). Because why use somebody else's one homebrew when I can (lazily) homebrew something myself?

(If you are wondering how I put nine levels of prestige class in the other side, consider the interaction of PHBII's class rebuilding rules with gestalt. As written, you could lose one side's classes and use the other side's classes to meet the prereqs.)
Title: Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
Post by: Drammor on March 12, 2017, 09:59:41 PM
Quote
I was looking at picking up Phalanx Fighting (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/phalanx-fighter-teamwork/) but was wondering how'd it work since you kicked alignments to the curb for this game. I was also looking at literally my entire army running this feat.....

Can Cohorts & Followers also have bloodlines?

Edit: I came across a weapon in Dragon Magazine (I think...113?) called the Executioner's Mace and can I have this?

We have no alignment. Die, Alignment, die.

When battling terrifying hordes of enemies, you find strength in your shield brothers and sisters.
Prerequisites: Base attack bonus +3, good alignment.
Benefit: You gain a sacred bonus to your AC against the attacks of evil creatures and a sacred bonus to saves against the spells and abilities of evil creatures equal to the number of adjacent allies who also have this feat.

I only feel lucky that it does require BAB +3, meaning that thousands of troops won't have this ability.

The PCs are Special. Cohorts and followers may not have bloodlines.

Yeah, you're good on the executioner's mace.
Quote
Close enough, thank you xD

Further question.

Does Protection from X not work in this game then?

Right. Spells and effects dependent on alignment, such as Protection from Evil, simply do not exist in this version of the game. There's no alignment for them to protect you from, and no alignment for them to have.

Which is it? Do things that function against a specific alignment do nothing or do they apply against everything? Is it a case-by-case basis thing?

I contradicted myself?? Of all the continuity errors possible in this wide, wide internet, how could I have fallen victim to this one iconic blunder? :sobbing :p

I'm tempted to say it's a case-by-case situation, but I'm also loathe to not solve those with rules. So let's say they apply against everything, for now. If a situation comes up when that doesn't work, we'll address it at that time. So in this case, there's a "Protection" spell, since "from X" isn't really necessary. How does that sound?

And thanks for catching that, Garryl.

Here is the current status.
Ketaro: Major Red Dragon Blooded Orc, Barbarian 5 / Orc Warlord 4 // Warlord 5 / Paragon 4
Chemus: Evolved Necropolitan Magic Blooded Draconic Lesser Aasimar, Paladin of Slaughter 9 // Draconic 1 / Marshal 2 / Fighter 2 / Evolved 1 / Legendary Leader 3
Rekmond: White Dragonspawn Dvati, Crusader ? / PF's Invulnerable Rager Barbarian ?
Vladeshi: Lesser Aasmir, Aasimar Paragon Dread Necromancer ? // Bard or Swordsage ?
Maelphaxerazz: ?
------------------------------
Nanshork: Marshal Homebrew X // ?
SorO_Lost: Likely Magic-Blooded Human, Mystic Ranger 4 / Bone Knight 5 // Dread Necromancer 8 / Fire-Souled(?) 1
Gosh, I am way behind everybody else, aren't I  :o
You can put me down as a Venerable Dragonwrought Kobold Factotum 9 // Dragon Warlord* 5/Chameleon 4 for now.

*that'll be my one homebrew. It is actually just Orc Warlord without me being an orc, with Dragonblood replacing the Rage prereq, and with the Final Rage capstone replaced with Dread Pirate's "Pirate King" capstone (except it is renamed Dragon King). Because why use somebody else's one homebrew when I can (lazily) homebrew something myself?

(If you are wondering how I put nine levels of prestige class in the other side, consider the interaction of PHBII's class rebuilding rules with gestalt. As written, you could lose one side's classes and use the other side's classes to meet the prereqs.)

Sounds good to me.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
Post by: Garryl on March 12, 2017, 10:05:23 PM
I contradicted myself?? Of all the continuity errors possible in this wide, wide internet, how could I have fallen victim to this one iconic blunder? :sobbing :p

At least you didn't get involved in a land war in Asia or go up against a Sicilian when death was on the line.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
Post by: SorO_Lost on March 12, 2017, 11:47:31 PM
You can put me down as a Venerable Dragonwrought Kobold Factotum 9 // Dragon Warlord* 5/Chameleon 4 for now.
(If you are wondering how I put nine levels of prestige class in the other side, consider the interaction of PHBII's class rebuilding rules with gestalt. As written, you could lose one side's classes and use the other side's classes to meet the prereqs.)
Sounds good to me.
And now shoving eight levels of Bone Knight on the second side sounds awesome.
Mystic Ranger 1 / Dread Necromancer 8 // Bone Knight 6 / Feat-Adaption Uncanny Trickster(bone knight) 3 would actually lose a CL but heck you get three defense/mobility feats and Bone's 8th level list of immunities.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
Post by: Chemus on March 13, 2017, 02:10:46 AM
Updated build (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=17829.msg321918#msg321918)... if anyone cares ;)
Title: Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
Post by: Rekmond on March 13, 2017, 01:15:02 PM
ok, one or two things to run through atm.

1. Do we have the ability to select the same homebrew piece as someone else for our 1 item?

2. The PF feat Master Craftsman, would this be permitted (I know you keep chatting about my Warlock Cohort and crafting, but that only kicks in at Warlock...12. Imbue Item won't be in play for a while unless I missed a trick)

I'll likely have other points later, but those are the foremost of the things I need Yes/No answers to so I can get more work done.

edit, will be off until late tonight. Taking mother out for her B-day dinner.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
Post by: Drammor on March 13, 2017, 04:04:29 PM
I keep forgetting Imbue is such a high level ability... hm. Shrug. I guess someone will have to build an actual crafter if you want those discounts.

Yeah, you can totally select the same homebrew as someone else.
Master Craftsman is fine. If you're doing this for faster crafting, you might also consider Craft Expertise from Dragon 339, p34.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
Post by: Rekmond on March 13, 2017, 04:46:43 PM
I'll likely have other points later, but those are the foremost of the things I need Yes/No answers to so I can get more work done.

Remembered one point that had occupied my thoughts.

Normally you can Rage only once per encounter.

As a Dvati I have two bodies, would I still be limited to once per encounter as a whole, or would each body be capable of doing so once?

Or would rage affect both of me at the same time? (interesting thought)
Title: Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
Post by: Drammor on March 13, 2017, 05:00:24 PM
Ugh. My brain, Rek. That's not even nice.

I don't know on this one. I'd love to get some input on the options, here.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
Post by: Maelphaxerazz on March 13, 2017, 05:00:50 PM
I guess someone will have to build an actual crafter if you want those discounts.
Possibly. However, one could also just say they used to have a crafter, then later dismissed the crafter and found a different follower in its place. It depends on whether we want a crafter coming with us to this campaign.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
Post by: Vladeshi on March 13, 2017, 05:17:08 PM
It depends on whether we want a crafter coming with us to this campaign.

Despite this, the PCs will be isolated for most of the campaign,

It might not be a bad idea to have one. I think that it depends on how much downtime we get while isolated.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
Post by: Maelphaxerazz on March 13, 2017, 05:30:27 PM
Moved to a separate post, on the topic of Dvati Rage, I quote:

Quote from: Dragon Magazine Compendium
A pair of dvati twins shares all class abilities and spells slots between them. For example, a 3rd-level dvati bard can use bardic music three times per day in total, not three times for each twin. Personal spells (those with a target of "you") affect both twins as long as they are on the same plane. Otherwise, they affect only the caster. Other spells function as normal. For example, a touch spell normally affects only the specific twin touched. The spell conductor ability (detailed below) allows the dvati to share some spells.

A mind-affecting ability or spell that affects one twin affects both of them. If a single such ability targets both twins at the same time, they make only one save between them. Dvati twins share one mind.

Rage is a class ability, and like other class abilities its uses (including uses per encounter) would be shared between the Dvati. However, Rage grants morale bonuses, and thus is mind-affecting.
Quote from: d20srd
Immunity to all mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, phantasms, patterns, and morale effects).

Therefore, the Dvati can only rage once per encounter, but when one dvati twin rages, both of them do.

Related to this, I recommend that all bards in our undead-heavy army take the Requiem (http://alcyius.com/dndtools/feats/libris-mortis-the-book-of-undead--71/requiem--2431/index.html) feat, because otherwise a lot of their spells and music abilities will not work on our troops.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
Post by: ketaro on March 13, 2017, 07:39:29 PM
Hopefully I can squeeze in requiem. My cohort is going to be a bard/warlock and at least have craft arms and armor
Title: Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
Post by: Rekmond on March 13, 2017, 09:29:01 PM
Hopefully I can squeeze in requiem. My cohort is going to be a bard/warlock and at least have craft arms and armor

That cohort setup seems familiar......

*looks at half built cohort*

hmm, yeah...I guess that'll point me to Craft Wondrous instead.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
Post by: Drammor on March 13, 2017, 10:34:07 PM
I won't be starting with one, but I can earmark the first dragon we kill for you. :D

I'm not a big fan of dragons, and they won't be featuring much at all in this campaign. There will be at least one, but I'm not sure if it's something you'll want to fight. Maybe more like... avoid.

Edit: I see you, Chemus. Postin.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
Post by: ketaro on March 13, 2017, 11:50:58 PM
Hopefully I can squeeze in requiem. My cohort is going to be a bard/warlock and at least have craft arms and armor

That cohort setup seems familiar......

*looks at half built cohort*

hmm, yeah...I guess that'll point me to Craft Wondrous instead.

Oh are you making a bard with requiem? Cause that's save me some space as I was only doing it for vlad's sake  :lmao
Title: Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
Post by: Chemus on March 14, 2017, 12:37:05 AM
Uhm, since I have a... few... Cohorts, perhaps one could be a Warlock//Chameleon. Too bad artificer is (correctly) considered too high tier... Anyone else note how expensive the Chameleon's Spellbook would have to be? 100gp x Spell Level, with no free spells gained.

Due to crafting costs, if all the encounters are Exactly level appropriate, the crafting cohort will be hard pressed to catch up, since they get a portion of your XP rather than more when they're lower.

Dark Craft (Sacrifice) or distilled joy/liquid pain or whatever might be useful there. Distilled joy is Joy 3, Sor/Wiz 3, whereas liquid pain is Pain 4, Sor/Wiz 4. Just have to figure a way to accelerate the casting of distilled joy...

If the casting time of 1 day counts as 'casting time measured in hours (24h)' then Arcane Thesis + Rapid Spell would reduce the casting time to 1 hour. Otherwise a 4kGP item takes 84 days to create using distilled joy in place of XP, rather than 4 days. That's still 20 castings per 1kgp, if no crafting reducers (Legendary Artisan, Master Artisan) are used.

(click to show/hide)
In fact, this build eats not 1 but 3 of my Charging cohorts (6th and 2 4ths), and about 150 followers (144 mooks and 6 5th+ Chargers), as there's no room for Leadership and Undead Leadership.

Not complaining, but checking if this trade-off valuable to the Army we're raising. I strongly suspect it is.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
Post by: ketaro on March 14, 2017, 02:56:31 AM
I don't know how to judge it sorry -_-'

@Drammor
I've gotten to the point of browsing spells for my Cohort's bard side atm. I may edit this before you respond. I'm exhausting D&D sources for interesting stuff before browsing Pathfinder >> Yes, whatever is linked below is me asking for a PF spell...

0th Level Signal (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/3rd-party-spells/rite-publishing-3rd-party-spells/s/signal/)
2nd Level Lay of the Land (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/l/lay-of-the-land/)
3rd Level Arcane Concordance (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/a/arcane-concordance/)

That is all please & thank you~

Edit: Hmm, not counting a few more spells (above), yay I finished my cohort. With a very appropriate spell selection for largescale war :p
God damn is he both squishy and easy to hit...
Title: Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
Post by: Maelphaxerazz on March 14, 2017, 11:19:22 AM
There is a way around Chameleon's spellbook expense, which I plan to use. The Apprentice (http://alcyius.com/dndtools/feats/dungeon-masters-guide-ii--40/apprentice--3265/index.html) feat lets a character copy from their mentor's spellbook at no charge. At level 5, you may also exchange it for Mentor, which gives you another cohort. Two birds with one stone.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
Post by: Chemus on March 14, 2017, 01:12:41 PM
Actually, I see that that negates the Copying fee, but does it also negate scribing costs? If not, then the 'Chameleon Extra Spell' trick should do to get some spells, and Warlock 12's Imbue Item (if he survives that far) should take care of the rest (by making scrolls of any arcane spell he needs, then either using it or scribing it)

[Edit] I'm considering having the character create a Boccob's Blessed Book (http://dndsrd.net/magicItemsWI.html#blessed-book), but even at the reduced cost, it's 4686.5 gp (unless I can fit Extraordinary Artisan, in which case it's 3515.63gp), plus the 300-450gp price of scribing secret page (for the crafting of the book). So if we can use 47 (or 36) spell levels of spells, for crafting or whatever, the BBB pays for itself. A 20th level sorcerer knows 42 'pages' worth of spells, counting 0-level spells as 1 page. [/Edit]

[Edit2] Duh! Extraordinary Artisan is much more necessary than Legendary Artisan, as it's only going from 3% XP cost down to 2.25% XP cost. I'll update that build. [/edit2]

@Drammor: If a character takes the Improved Cohort feat, it still abides by the Cohort XP rules. Thus, an existing cohort can't catch up unless the PC gets more XP than he can use (more than 2 level's worth). Will that be addressed, or am I somehow incorrect?
Title: Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
Post by: ketaro on March 14, 2017, 04:33:53 PM
Can't you use other nonfeat cost reduction to make that BBB cheaper? Like making it x class only.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
Post by: Garryl on March 14, 2017, 05:03:15 PM
The Spellcraft skill lets you memorize spells from another person's spellbook. The DC is 15 + spell level for each spell, one check per day. IIRC, Complete Arcane lets you permanently work from someone else's spellbook with a DC 25 + spell level Spellcraft check, too. It's a little unreliable without a high Spellcraft modifier, but it should help cut down costs for having large numbers of spellcasters around.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
Post by: Drammor on March 14, 2017, 06:42:05 PM
I don't know how to judge it sorry -_-'

@Drammor
I've gotten to the point of browsing spells for my Cohort's bard side atm. I may edit this before you respond. I'm exhausting D&D sources for interesting stuff before browsing Pathfinder >> Yes, whatever is linked below is me asking for a PF spell...

0th Level Signal (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/3rd-party-spells/rite-publishing-3rd-party-spells/s/signal/)
2nd Level Lay of the Land (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/l/lay-of-the-land/)
3rd Level Arcane Concordance (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/a/arcane-concordance/)

That is all please & thank you~

Edit: Hmm, not counting a few more spells (above), yay I finished my cohort. With a very appropriate spell selection for largescale war :p
God damn is he both squishy and easy to hit...

Excellent spells for war. You may get some weirdness going on with the second one, but hey, weirdness is why we have a game at all. These are definitely approved, yes.

@Drammor: If a character takes the Improved Cohort feat, it still abides by the Cohort XP rules. Thus, an existing cohort can't catch up unless the PC gets more XP than he can use (more than 2 level's worth). Will that be addressed, or am I somehow incorrect?

No, you're right.

We could just fix cohorts at their maximum level and give them an XP pool that puts them "halfway to their next level", and have them gain/lose a permanent level when you do. Their pool could gain or lose XP as it was gained/spent but it wouldn't affect their level. And I'm not majorly concerned about what that means for cohort crafting.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
Post by: ketaro on March 14, 2017, 08:42:15 PM
Oh no, I have 18 AC as a frontline dps that drops to 12 when I rage  :lmao
Title: Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
Post by: Rekmond on March 14, 2017, 09:06:35 PM
Oh no, I have 18 AC as a frontline dps that drops to 12 when I rage  :lmao

you lose 6 AC while raging?
Title: Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
Post by: ketaro on March 14, 2017, 09:24:35 PM
In return I gain +8 Str/+6 Con >.>

Edit: Well, I can also somewhat undo and/or bump the AC loss with Phalanx Fighter if I grant it to everybody and just make ya'll huddle up  :plotting
Title: Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
Post by: Chemus on March 15, 2017, 12:28:33 AM
Can't you use other nonfeat cost reduction to make that BBB cheaper? Like making it x class only.
Um... it can require a DC... 15? ...21? spellcraft, or ...forgery, check to scribe... that knocks off 10% (~350gp), But I can't see a way to get a 'specific class' (and alignment is right out!) requirement in there well (which could knock off 30%) Unless they meant a class feature (such as arcane casting) in which case, the book only functions for those who prepare and scribe spells as a wizard does... if I could do that it would get it to 2214gp.

The Spellcraft skill lets you memorize spells from another person's spellbook. The DC is 15 + spell level for each spell, one check per day. IIRC, Complete Arcane lets you permanently work from someone else's spellbook with a DC 25 + spell level Spellcraft check, too. It's a little unreliable without a high Spellcraft modifier, but it should help cut down costs for having large numbers of spellcasters around.

So sharing the BBB could be good... I'd not reread the entry, just got the price and linked it; it's 1000 pages, not 100 (I'd misremembered that instead of 1k pages, that each spell took 1 page in the book) so the cost of unique arcane spells is 3.5gp (or 2.2gp) per spell level. Who all has need of a spellbook, and of those who's got the lowest spellcraft? I'd need to get +21 to permanently use the BBB with 6th level spells I'd not scribed myself.

And though the DC to prepare from it is only 15+level, the DC to decipher is 20+spell level, and deciphering must be done first. However it says "A read magic spell automatically deciphers a magical writing without a skill check. If the person who created the magical writing is on hand to help the reader, success is also automatic." so if anyone else needs to decipher my cohorts handwriting just ask ;)

So the BBB can be shared with only +11 to spellcraft (my cohort can only get to 6th level spells, so unless someone else needs to get higher, the DC is 21, and you can take 10 on spellcraft). Anyone's character/cohort gonna have less that that on spellcraft?
Title: Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
Post by: ketaro on March 15, 2017, 01:12:24 AM
I'm done. Welcome to the field of battle: Dedstorm Ted (https://www.myth-weavers.com/sheet.html#id=1141398) and Bannerlord Zed (https://www.myth-weavers.com/sheet.html#id=1141733)


Orc names weren't doing it for me so I went to a goblin name gen. It works, they're basically the same thing :p
Did you know Ted is considered a legit goblin name?  :lmao
I also did not expect building my followers to take over 8 hours -_-' my gosh...
Title: Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
Post by: Drammor on March 15, 2017, 03:58:17 AM
A heads-up, it's taking longer than I thought to get a firm understanding of all the large-scale battle rules. This is due in part to the volume in content, and to the amount of other stuff I'm working on. The starting date may change, depending on how long it takes me to wrap my head around it all, but I want to make sure I'm not leading you all into a mire of mistakes.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
Post by: ketaro on March 15, 2017, 05:04:48 AM
Is cool~ I haven't even touched heroes of battle yet ;)

Gosh, it sure is fun imagining hundreds of orcs ominously chanting "Ted, Ted, TED, TED" ever louder and becoming a cacophonous, bloodthirsty roar of just there boss's name. Terrifyingly fun fanfare  :plotting
Title: Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
Post by: Rekmond on March 15, 2017, 10:33:32 AM
@Drammor: If a character takes the Improved Cohort feat, it still abides by the Cohort XP rules. Thus, an existing cohort can't catch up unless the PC gets more XP than he can use (more than 2 level's worth). Will that be addressed, or am I somehow incorrect?

No, you're right.

We could just fix cohorts at their maximum level and give them an XP pool that puts them "halfway to their next level", and have them gain/lose a permanent level when you do. Their pool could gain or lose XP as it was gained/spent but it wouldn't affect their level. And I'm not majorly concerned about what that means for cohort crafting.

Weighing in on this. I'm a bit fond of the always maximum level for Cohort myself. Even if it just means less bookkeeping.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
Post by: Chemus on March 15, 2017, 11:06:47 AM
Yeah, I'd be happy for this to be the case.

Everyone, I remembered that he said Taint is in play! That means that Undead and Evil Outsiders are immune to the negative effects of Taint (HoH, 62), but can still gain bonus feats at moderate and again at severe Taint (HoH 67).

Now to get the HoB rules read...
Title: Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
Post by: Rekmond on March 15, 2017, 04:37:36 PM
um so, I was looking at equipping my Dvati and ended up stumbling over one thing that REALLY needs to be decided on.

How does having two bodies interact with ability score enhancing items like the Cloak of Charisma?

Does the bonus apply to both bodies? Does it apply to whichever body is wearing it while the other keeps normal scores? Can each body wear one thus doubling the bonus? (not bloody likely)
Title: Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
Post by: Drammor on March 15, 2017, 05:01:14 PM
Only the body wearing the item receives the bonus. The other body keeps their normal scores.

Also, max level cohort for less bookkeeping is go.

Edit: Have you guys put any thought into a companion spirit?
Title: Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
Post by: Chemus on March 15, 2017, 11:24:49 PM
Companion spirit? Uhh... never really read that part of DMGII. Does that interact with Practiced Cohort at all (HoB)?

I'm looking at using PsyRef as a Magic Device (1/Day) to fix my PC's and its Cohorts' feats  to maximize Leadership. If I do, then it'd have ~160+ 5th level+ followers, capping out at 9th level followers, and 12 Cohorts from 4th to 8th level, only one of which has to be that crafting cohort (otherwise there'd be a few more), and if we can attract followers later on, then as we advance, there'll be even more.

The PC would have over 6k followers at 9th level. Is this taking things too far?

Title: Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
Post by: Drammor on March 16, 2017, 02:44:34 AM
I can appreciate doubling down on the followers aspect of the game, but that really is going too far with the concept.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
Post by: Chemus on March 16, 2017, 03:30:19 AM
That's what I thought, but once I saw the possibility, I kinda had to check. I'll limit the followerness-ness of my feat picks then.

Since alignment ain't in the game, would an item in MIC that's limited to Turn undead (Not Rebuke Undead) still have that limit, and would it be homebrew to have the same item in reverse? (Ephod of Authority, Part of Vestments of Divinity (Set for 'fighting evil creatures'), MIC 215, +1 Turn Undead).
Title: Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
Post by: Maelphaxerazz on March 16, 2017, 12:48:23 PM
I can appreciate doubling down on the followers aspect of the game, but that really is going too far with the concept.
Could you clarify this? My current also has a similar horde of followers (and more), so I would like to know how many followers is too many, so I can guide my choices.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
Post by: Rekmond on March 16, 2017, 12:50:33 PM
Sans equipment, These (two, three?) should be done for now. Hardly optimized but eh...

Anyways

PC  Muh'Ty and Ka'lam (https://www.myth-weavers.com/sheet.html#id=1140890)
Major Fey Blooded White Dragonspawn Dvati
LA 1 - Crusader 4 - Paragon 3 / Barbarian 8

Cohort Saxifrage (https://www.myth-weavers.com/sheet.html#id=1143277)
Petal
LA 1 - Bard 5 / Warlock 6

thoughts? opinions? ......complaints?
Title: Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
Post by: Drammor on March 16, 2017, 03:33:50 PM
Could you clarify this? My current also has a similar horde of followers (and more), so I would like to know how many followers is too many, so I can guide my choices.
That's what I thought, but once I saw the possibility, I kinda had to check. I'll limit the followerness-ness of my feat picks then.

Since alignment ain't in the game, would an item in MIC that's limited to Turn undead (Not Rebuke Undead) still have that limit, and would it be homebrew to have the same item in reverse? (Ephod of Authority, Part of Vestments of Divinity (Set for 'fighting evil creatures'), MIC 215, +1 Turn Undead).

First, an item limited to turn undead is still thusly limited.

Second, could I see a breakdown of those rosters, by leadership score? It might not be as bad as it looks from first blush. And those cohorts aren't all "yours," right? They are, more specifically, the cohort of your cohort, and their cohort, and their cohort's cohort? Ugh. Semantic saturation.

It's more like you're the General, your cohorts are Colonels, theirs are Majors, and theirs are Captains. Is that right? Or have you somehow found a way to give a single PC 12 different cohorts?

About companion spirits and practiced cohort... no. The companion spirit is shared between specific members of a group, but it is not a teamwork benefit. Sort of like how Fell Conspiracy isn't a teamwork benefit. They all affect groups, but don't (directly) interact.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
Post by: Maelphaxerazz on March 16, 2017, 09:42:30 PM
could I see a breakdown of those rosters, by leadership score?
You could, but it might take me some time to run up the numbers. Until now, the build was entirely in my head, with all the things I was thinking of putting in it (pending DM's discretion, of course.) Now that I actually start working through the implications, it is a bit overwhelming
Quote
It might not be as bad as it looks from first blush.
ha, ha Hahahahaha HAHAHAHAa ahaHAHAHAHAHAHAA
Quote
have you somehow found a way to give a single PC 12 different cohorts?
Five. Dragon Cohort + Undead Leadership + Great Diplomat (http://www.realmshelps.net/charbuild/feat/Great_Diplomat) + Mentor + Leadership.

PC: level 9, one person. Has Leadership, Undead Leadership, Dragon Cohort, Mentor, Great Diplomat.
Cohorts: Level 8, five persons (one is a pseudodragon). Have Leadership, Undead Leadership, Mentor, Great Diplomat.
Sub-Cohorts: level 7, twenty persons. Have Leadership, Undead Leadership, Mentor, Great Diplomat.
Sub-Sub-Cohorts: level 6, eighty persons. Have Leadership, Undead Leadership, Mentor, Great Diplomat.
Sub-Sub-Sub-Cohorts: Level 5, 320 persons. Have Leadership, Mentor.
Sub-Sub-Sub-Sub-Cohorts: Level 4. 640 persons. No cohorts or followers.

That's cohorts. Their followers will take a bit of processing time to calculate, as there are 426 follower-bearing persons.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
Post by: Chemus on March 17, 2017, 02:14:38 AM
Hmm I'd already edited the doc.

Feats were Iron Will at 1st, Great Diplomat (Flaw), Mounted Combat (Flaw), Ride-by Attack (From Moderate Taint), Spirited Charge (3rd), Leadership (6th), Undead Leadership (From Severe Taint), Extra Cohort (PsyRef'd from Mounted combat), Improved Cohort (Psyref'd from Ride-by attack, after getting Riding boots), and Might Makes Right (9th).

Got the crafting cohort to craft a Lyre of Building, which once per week can do the work of 100 human laborers doing 3 days work in 30 mins, requiring only a DC 18 Perform check (+10 bonus, it's a MW lyre, taking 10=22), check every hour. Being undead, and not needing sleep, the PC can fairly quickly and cheaply build a stronghold. Several in fact.

Leadership for determining Followers, counting items (Just a Helm of Charisma & Wisdom +4 (26->32), and a belt of Str +4 (18->22), got to 38 (Level 9, + 11 Cha, + 6 Str (MMR), +2 Great Diplomat, +2 for Undead, +1 for Extra Followers, +1 for Improved Cohort (Leader Feats give +1), +1 for Power, +1 for fairnessness, +2 for renown (the -2 for a steed is only for cohorts, and thats... unimportant), +2 for that stronghold = 38 for two doubled pools of followers.

2 Lvl 8 Cohorts had same build, so no MMR (-6), None of the boosting gear (But having the feat replacing gear, so they're still Spirited Chargers) (-2), and 1 level lower (Lshp 28), 7th Cohort -2 (no Cha bump and lower Level) 26. Those were the direct Cohorts. For 2 pools of doubled followers each.

2 Lv 8s had 2 7ths and a 6th set of cohorts, one of whom is the Crafting Co-Cohort which has no staff (the taint feats are for Legendary Artisan (XP), and Craft Wand).

5 Lvl 7s (PC's + Cohorts) Were also the same build, w/ 26 Lshp, and each having 2 6ths Cohort and a 5th cohort.

11 6th CoCohorts w/Leadership @25 Lshp, had a 5th CoCoCohort each, and a 4th CoCoCohort each, each with the same build in earlier stages (so no followers or cohorts yet).



All the Leadership scores were pretty high, and each was x4 followers:
9th (PC)8th8th7th7th7th7th7th6th6th6th6th6th6th6th6th6th6th6thTotal
Lshp37282826262626262525252525252525252525
1st296088088064064064064064052052052052052052052052052052052013640
2nd2968888646464646452525252525252525252521364
3rd148444432323232322828282828282828282828704
4th76242416161616161616161616161616161616380
5th4012128888888888888888192
6th20888888888888888888164
7th1244444444444444444484
8th8------------------------------------8
9th4------------------------------------4

PC Had 3564 followers of her own, and a chain of 57 Cohorts 3 direct, the rest via Cohort Chains, and the PC's army had 16540 Followers: 16088 mooks (warlocks) and 452 5th+ Paladins of Laughter ready to dive-bomb with lances for 10-14h/day, 12 of which could keep their mount for up to 24-26h (via call mount).

Title: Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
Post by: Chemus on March 17, 2017, 02:28:52 AM
have you somehow found a way to give a single PC 12 different cohorts?
Five. Dragon Cohort + Undead Leadership + Great Diplomat (http://www.realmshelps.net/charbuild/feat/Great_Diplomat) + Mentor + Leadership.

Sub-Sub-Sub-Cohorts: Level 5, 320 persons. Have Leadership, Mentor.
Regarding Great Diplomat: Oh MY. I hadn't seen that in the update (But it is in the update!)

...5th level Characters can't get Leadership usually; how are you making that work?

Edited the roster requested, as per the update info that Malephaxerazz had pointed out. The build was the same, but the results... amplified. Thanks Maleph!

Considering those numbers, I'd probably have make each secondary (the one from Undead Leadership) cohort a Crafting Cohort, just to get anything done! That'd cut out 2680 Followers (2600 mooks, and 80 Chargers), but add 14 crafting Cohorts, levels 4-7th.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
Post by: Drammor on March 17, 2017, 04:50:29 AM
ha, ha Hahahahaha HAHAHAHAa ahaHAHAHAHAHAHAA
Welp.

I am strangely okay with ~60 cohorts, and maybe even upwards of 75, but 1067 cohorts is around a thousand too many. I mean, I appreciate your passion for the system, but there's just a limit to the number of military-capable people/corpses in a nation.

Objectively, though, wow. That's just insane. Congratulations on what you did there. :clap


@Chemus, x4 followers? Are you using Extra Followers and Warlord to multiply 200% by 2? If so, please remember that in this system, two doublings equals a tripling.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
Post by: Chemus on March 17, 2017, 05:01:07 AM
I'm using Extra followers w/Leadership and Undead Leadership. They have independent follower pools, but they interact directly with the leadership score and Extra followers by that score.

Hadn't we gone over this and Improved Cohort? EF affects both, but IC only affects Leadership (as that's how each is written). I'm really happy that Great Diplomat got that bump though... :)

Title: Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
Post by: Drammor on March 17, 2017, 05:07:26 AM
Ah good. I thought that you had meant x4 followers per pool. Carry on then. :blush
Title: Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
Post by: Garryl on March 17, 2017, 11:36:55 AM
@Chemus, x4 followers? Are you using Extra Followers and Warlord to multiply 200% by 2? If so, please remember that in this system, two doublings equals a tripling.

D&D's additive multiplication only applies for abstract quantities, like damage. Real-world units, like distance, multiply multiplicatively, like in reality.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
Post by: ketaro on March 17, 2017, 11:39:36 AM
Gosh, I have only a humble horde of just under 500. But I suppose it'd show that there aren't many orcs following undead gods :p

Unless anybody recommends putting more Leadership's into my 6 lvl 6th & 7th followers :v
Hmm.... Heh, that'd be funny. Nongestalt followers with gestalt cohorts.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
Post by: Maelphaxerazz on March 17, 2017, 11:51:58 AM
...5th level Characters can't get Leadership usually; how are you making that work?
Despot paladin variant, from Dragon 312. Has Leadership as a class feature at level 5.
Also: Improved Cohort indeed affects only the Leadership cohort, which is why I take Close Cohort (http://www.realmshelps.net/charbuild/feat/Close_Cohort) instead.

I am strangely okay with ~60 cohorts, and maybe even upwards of 75, but 1067 cohorts is around a thousand too many. I mean, I appreciate your passion for the system, but there's just a limit to the number of military-capable people/corpses in a nation.
That's fair. I did not realise how many it was until I sat down to do the math. D&D 3.5 is the sort of game which has enough different ways to do the same thing that if any character specialized completely, that person warps the universe around their specialty.
I'll cut down the cohort count to 75. Technically, 1067 is "upwards of (https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/upwards%20of)" 75, but that's obviously not what you meant  :tongue
Title: Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
Post by: SorO_Lost on March 17, 2017, 01:32:49 PM
Objectively, though, wow. That's just insane. Congratulations on what you did there.
It's what I was trying to do that one day in chat. Using a 6th level Follower as an artillery commander, a 5th level cohort bard to inspire the crew, their leadership pools to secure the wealth to buy several siege engines, and still have enough lower level followers to act as a defensive meat grinder.

Btw, speaking of things I've said in chat, that infinite loop I spoke of works like this. Court of Thieves (CS, 6,000gp) doubles your Charisma Modifier for Cohort/Followers if the minion has a level of Bard or Rogue. So say you have a nearly modest 18 base, +2 via +0 template, +2 racial, +2 level, +2 age, +4 enhancement and that yields a +20 bonus to your Leadership Score. Everyone has a "special power" since Bards are awesome and call them all fair for another +2 and then another +6 for the level bonus and congratulations a 6th level Follower can have a 7th level Follower. The bonus from the Court of Thieve only exists so long as it's a secret. But as is, this one tiny branch contains 256 people and only one guy knows about it or 0.3% of the population. Used four times, only 0.09% of the population knows about it, the knowledge of it literally becomes more exclusive the more times it's used. Now just use some levels to pick up some more Charisma and you can secure 9th level Followers. Obviously it's possible simply using enough Charisma, but the Magical Location just makes it easier. Also he banned infinite loops so this is just an fyi.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
Post by: Chemus on March 17, 2017, 02:48:24 PM
Gosh, I have only a humble horde of just under 500. But I suppose it'd show that there aren't many orcs following undead gods :p

Unless anybody recommends putting more Leadership's into my 6 lvl 6th & 7th followers :v
Hmm.... Heh, that'd be funny. Nongestalt followers with gestalt cohorts.
The followers can't take Leadership, per Drammor's ruling.

PC, Equipped, Here: Slûnwe the Lovely (https://www.myth-weavers.com/sheet.html#id=1146128)
Title: Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
Post by: Drammor on March 17, 2017, 04:07:27 PM
D&D's additive multiplication only applies for abstract quantities, like damage. Real-world units, like distance, multiply multiplicatively, like in reality.

Uuuugh. This is like... the 6th time I've had to recalculate followers for these villains. Thanks though, that's good information.

Gosh, I have only a humble horde of just under 500. But I suppose it'd show that there aren't many orcs following undead gods :p

Unless anybody recommends putting more Leadership's into my 6 lvl 6th & 7th followers :v
Hmm.... Heh, that'd be funny. Nongestalt followers with gestalt cohorts.

Your restraint is greatly appreciated.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
Post by: Maelphaxerazz on March 17, 2017, 04:57:53 PM
D&D's additive multiplication only applies for abstract quantities, like damage. Real-world units, like distance, multiply multiplicatively, like in reality.

Uuuugh. This is like... the 6th time I've had to recalculate followers for these villains. Thanks though, that's good information.
Which, of course, means that I also have to recalculate my follower count, because I have the horde and Extra Followers. This may become a bloodbath of Mongol proportions :cool
Title: Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
Post by: Rekmond on March 17, 2017, 05:00:12 PM
And I'm over here with less than 50 mooks at present wondering if I need to up the ante.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
Post by: Maelphaxerazz on March 17, 2017, 05:36:07 PM
  • Sources Allowed: ... some Pathfinder (ask).
May I take Racial Heritage (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/racial-feats/racial-heritage/) feat?

EDIT: also, I want to modify my homebrew. Chameleon basically needs to be human (or changeling, or doppelganger), so the "dragon" theme of my not-orc-warlord prestige class isn't fitting very well. So, I'd like to rename it to Human Warlord, changing the prerequisites appropriately. It will look less silly when the leader of the army is not a four-foot-tall lizard. 
:thought
Title: Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
Post by: ketaro on March 17, 2017, 05:54:44 PM
Good. I actually didn't want to do more work  :lmao
Title: Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
Post by: Drammor on March 17, 2017, 06:57:27 PM
  • Sources Allowed: ... some Pathfinder (ask).
May I take Racial Heritage (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/racial-feats/racial-heritage/) feat?

EDIT: also, I want to modify my homebrew. Chameleon basically needs to be human (or changeling, or doppelganger), so the "dragon" theme of my not-orc-warlord prestige class isn't fitting very well. So, I'd like to rename it to Human Warlord, changing the prerequisites appropriately. It will look less silly when the leader of the army is not a four-foot-tall lizard. 
:thought

Sure thing. :thumbsup
Title: Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
Post by: Maelphaxerazz on March 18, 2017, 03:49:30 PM
I've had a change of heart, and am dropping my Homebrew Warlord prestige class from the build. For one thing, it really is just "More followers: the prestige class", which is fun to calculate but in actual gameplay will just mean the antagonists will have more followers to match. The DM isn't going to zerg rush us to death (because then the game would just be over), so simply increasing the population of my army is a meaningless exercise.

The other reason is that I'm realising that I'm making my army more complicated than I will really have the time to manage. I still have papers to write, after all.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
Post by: Chemus on March 18, 2017, 04:17:47 PM
I was having a similar idea: Maximize my cohorts (3-4 at 1 level behind me via Close Cohort (http://www.realmshelps.net/charbuild/feat/Close_Cohort) and Extra Cohort (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/3rd-party-feats/rogue-genius-games/general-feats/extra-cohort/) (since close cohort doesn't refer to the cohort being gained from the leadership feat, it should improve the one from Undead Leadership properly, and might improve the one from extra cohort as well)), and have only the PC with cohorts and followers.

That removes the leadership chaining (wasn't too concerned, as they have good saves, but they can die), and limits the followers a bit, as I was planning on replacing extra Followers with Extra Cohort, if Extra Cohort is compatible with Close Cohort (haven't calc'd the lower followers yet). Eases the item strain on the Cohorts too, since I don't have to PsyRef them or give 'em Items to get them to Spirited Charge.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
Post by: Vladeshi on March 19, 2017, 11:10:55 PM
Just a handful more questions and I should be about done with my characters and army.

Do mindless skeleton followers still have their NPC follower wealth in order to get their equipment?

Do followers and cohorts count as undead under my control for the purpose of the necromantic prowess and necromantic might feats?

Will we be expected to keep track of ammo for our ranged attacking followers?

Can anyone think of any good names for a creepy little girl and her bodyguard? :bigeyes
I already have one for the other cohort. This is always one of the hardest parts for me.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
Post by: Drammor on March 19, 2017, 11:45:18 PM
Yes, no, only if the individual ammos are magical or cost more than 2 gold, and no. :)
Title: Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
Post by: Garryl on March 20, 2017, 12:04:38 AM
Can anyone think of any good names for a creepy little girl and her bodyguard? :bigeyes
I already have one for the other cohort. This is always one of the hardest parts for me.

You mean like Bioshock's little sisters and big daddys?
Title: Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
Post by: Chemus on March 20, 2017, 12:15:02 AM
...Can anyone think of any good names for a creepy little girl and her bodyguard? :bigeyes...

If she's a little girl, give her a little girl name... it could enhance her creepiness a little. (Skyrim had Babette for example, Just have an innocuous name attached to your miniscule horror)

As for her bodyguard, what is it? Is it a family retainer, a soldier, a monster? Fluffy, or Mr. Wiggums if it's a monster, Sgt (Cpt, etc) Nostrum (or w/e) if it's a soldier, and Higgins or Gerard if it's a retainer.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
Post by: Maelphaxerazz on March 20, 2017, 10:53:27 AM
On Dvati: what happens when one Dvati twin dies and, while the other is still alive, a friendly druid casts Last Breath (http://dnd.arkalseif.info/spells/spell-compendium--86/last-breath--4336/index.html) on the slain twin. Does the Dvati retain its twin connection if he or she becomes, say, a Changeling?

(I'm basically thinking of also being Dvati, but not exactly a Dvati. A +1 LA for a PC in two bodies)
Title: Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
Post by: Rekmond on March 20, 2017, 02:16:39 PM
On Dvati: what happens when one Dvati twin dies and, while the other is still alive, a friendly druid casts Last Breath (http://dnd.arkalseif.info/spells/spell-compendium--86/last-breath--4336/index.html) on the slain twin. Does the Dvati retain its twin connection if he or she becomes, say, a Changeling?

(I'm basically thinking of also being Dvati, but not exactly a Dvati. A +1 LA for a PC in two bodies)

That's one of those many uncovered situations that having one soul and mind in charge of two bodies spawns. I personally think the spell will fail since you wouldn't be working with a full soul, but I suppose it is open to interpretation.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
Post by: Drammor on March 20, 2017, 09:00:30 PM
On Dvati: what happens when one Dvati twin dies and, while the other is still alive, a friendly druid casts Last Breath (http://dnd.arkalseif.info/spells/spell-compendium--86/last-breath--4336/index.html) on the slain twin. Does the Dvati retain its twin connection if he or she becomes, say, a Changeling?

(I'm basically thinking of also being Dvati, but not exactly a Dvati. A +1 LA for a PC in two bodies)

Uuuuuh. The dead one comes back to life, but unless the living one "agrees" to the spell, race doesn't change. If race does change, the two bodies fuse into one being.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
Post by: Chemus on March 20, 2017, 11:44:22 PM
I like it Drammor; the body created is influenced by the soul of the attached twin. Keeps things neat (and since they have LA, it's not 'unbalanced' that they get a special dispensation for Reincarnation)

If I made some Cohorts into Paladins of Laughter//Blackguards, would the Fallen Paladins Section apply (...added goodies)? Additionally, could the Fiendish Companion ability be folded into the Special Mount ability? Ideally, swapping the Fiendish Template with the Necropolitan template (or similar).

For paladins, how does Detect [alignment] work? Just detects Clerics and outsiders as well as those with strong intentions? Would Aura of Evil change to just Aura? And would Smite [alignment] become just Smite? (The smites are per day, so not too powerful... though a Binder with Andras could get 1/5rds)
Title: Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
Post by: Drammor on March 21, 2017, 09:50:31 PM
Yes, the fallen paladins section still applies. I don't see any problems with having a fiendish mount, if you're a blackguard; those abilities can easily be folded together.

Detect [alignment] is one of the things that suffers from there not being alignment. It could detect things with Aura and similar creatures, but that is it. On the other hand, Smite benefits, just as you described.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
Post by: Maelphaxerazz on March 21, 2017, 09:56:43 PM
Notably, there are ACFs you can trade Detect Alignment for that are not alignment-based. You could take Detect Undead instead, or Detect Magic, or Detect Night Creatures, or Detect Lies, or Know Greatest Enemy.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
Post by: Chemus on March 22, 2017, 12:27:42 AM
@Drammor: That's cool, so it'll detect Clerics, Paladins, Favored Souls, Undead(?) and Outsiders(?), but not level X characters, right? And overwhelming auras don't depend on either party's alignment; if they're twice the Detector's ECL, and their aura is overwhelming, then the Detector is at risk of being stunned (obviously not when undead, but for clarity).

@Maelphaxerazz: Thanks, most of my paladins already have Know Greatest Enemy, but if some of my Cohorts aren't taking Leadership, and so won't qualify for L(ord/ady) of the Dead, then they might take levels of Blackguard on the PrC/LA Side. BG's don't have much in the way of ACF's, and I wanted to know what I'd get outta of using Detect Good. It appears that the words 'good', 'evil', 'lawful', 'cHa0t1k' and 'alignment' are excised from the rules and the rest of the rules surrounding them are pressed gently together to see if they make enough sense.

[Edit] Since the Tressym (LEoF 191) are +0 LA (Cohort), and intelligent to boot, I'm trying to find a way for Magical Beasts to qualify for a cheap Undead template so that they can replace the Anthropomorphic Ravens as warlock mooks. Any ideas? (Necropolitan needs Humanoids and Monstr. Hum., and Bone Creature (BoVD) is unupdated, so no LA listed, and Corpse Creature (also BoVD) is also Unupdated)
Title: Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
Post by: Drammor on March 22, 2017, 04:15:48 AM
Yes, all correct there.

No ideas on the turning-tressyms-into-undeads front, though.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
Post by: ketaro on March 22, 2017, 05:59:50 AM
Does it have to list an LA for the template?  :tongue
Title: Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
Post by: Chemus on March 22, 2017, 12:51:52 PM
Does it have to list an LA for the template?  :tongue
Dunno, but prolly.

Upon looking relatively thoroughly, I don't find much except:

bonesinger (orig creature must have been a bard, no LA listed, even after the ghostwalk update to 3.5, and the dwarf ghost has a listed LA +0; LA only mentioned 3 times in the update)

crypt spawn (http://www.realmshelps.net/monsters/templates/cryptspawn.shtml) (MoF, exactly like necropolitan, except that the +2 to saves vs control undead is replaced with Nat AC by HD (+1), and a +4 Intimidate, created with a 7th level Initiate of Bane divine spell (Undeath after Death), 50gp/HD) +2 LA after the FR Update in the PGtF WE (dammit)

Zin-carla (F&P, necropolitan, except control undead resistance -> DR 5/magic, LA +4! after update WE).

Even Ghost savage progression only works for level 2 critters since it gives no HD at any level. LA buyback makes level 2 followers for 'free', but I don't guess that that's what Drammor's going for.

The crypt spawn is the best, but for that NAC and LA. *mumble mumble WotC*

[edited for accuracy and to link crypt spawn]
Title: Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
Post by: Chemus on March 24, 2017, 02:08:16 AM
...I'd forgotten PAO; if PAO'd into, say doppelgangers (Same Kingdom +5, Same Class +2, larger size and higher Int, so stop there for Duration: 1 week), then Necropolitan'd, the tressym would stay Necropolitan'd, right? (Alter Self (http://dndsrd.net/spellsAtoB.html#alter-self) -> polymorph (http://dndsrd.net/spellsPtoR.html#polymorph) -> PAO (http://dndsrd.net/spellsPtoR.html#polymorph-any-object))

...I should stay with the Fly 40 (poor/average) AM Ravens, rather than the Fly 80 (good/perfect) Tressym, shouldn't I?
Title: Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
Post by: Drammor on March 24, 2017, 05:07:00 AM
Yeah, you're getting into some serious fondue territory here, Chemus. Stick with the ravenfolk, that should be safe ;)
Title: Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
Post by: Maelphaxerazz on March 26, 2017, 04:49:41 PM
I know you guys liked the idea of following Evening glory, but guys

what if

we follow Tem-Et-Nu (http://alcyius.com/dndtools/feats/sandstorm--85/blessed-by-tem-et-nu--219/index.html)
Title: Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
Post by: Vladeshi on March 26, 2017, 05:18:33 PM
crypt spawn (http://www.realmshelps.net/monsters/templates/cryptspawn.shtml) (MoF, exactly like necropolitan, except that the +2 to saves vs control undead is replaced with Nat AC by HD (+1), and a +4 Intimidate, created with a 7th level Initiate of Bane divine spell (Undeath after Death), 50gp/HD) +2 LA after the FR Update in the PGtF WE (dammit)

The crypt spawn is the best, but for that NAC and LA. *mumble mumble WotC*

If that LA was not there I would be using that over Necropolitan in an instant.
Because my Intimidate check is already +30.

what if
we follow Tem-Et-Nu (http://alcyius.com/dndtools/feats/sandstorm--85/blessed-by-tem-et-nu--219/index.html)

The phrase "Oh yes, we worship the Holy Hippo!" comes to mind.  :lmao

@Drammor: In that vein, how serious do we want this campaign to be?
Title: Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
Post by: Drammor on March 26, 2017, 08:44:34 PM
I know you guys liked the idea of following Evening glory, but guys

what if

we follow Tem-Et-Nu (http://alcyius.com/dndtools/feats/sandstorm--85/blessed-by-tem-et-nu--219/index.html)

I will unleash the revived fossil hippopotamuses, then.

If that LA was not there I would be using that over Necropolitan in an instant.
Because my Intimidate check is already +30.

The phrase "Oh yes, we worship the Holy Hippo!" comes to mind.  :lmao

@Drammor: In that vein, how serious do we want this campaign to be?

I was aiming for more serious than that. Not quite dire, though. I mean, there will be moral issues that come up, even if you're playing Team Evil in the Land without Alignments.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
Post by: Chemus on March 26, 2017, 11:52:25 PM
Yeah... I like that evening Glory ain't EEEEvill, just... goal oriented. If I hadn't thrown in with her, I'd be seriously considering those troll-blooded Bone Knights  (Damage immunity to all but fire and acid, mooks avoid fatigue with either Tireless (if Aasimar are considered human as in Races of Destiny) or an item of No Light (0-lvl, normal light sources don't illuminate the area), with Paladin or...Warblade on the other. The taint (and it's built-in Flaws), with the inability of anything except wish or miracle to get rid of it, makes EG's 'Undead of Love' the 'best' IMO. We're not team evil; we're trying to show the world that Undead are/were People too!

If'n I did go with the troll-blooded, Cha would get hurt, but Str and Con would bump (Lolth-touched >> Evolved, but no Cha bump)

I'm kinda goin' off the deep end on items: can we use the Item Creation Cost Estimation Rules (http://dndsrd.net/magicItemsCreation.html) as written?
Semi Extreme examples:

Continuous Shirt of the Shield Spell (1st level, CL 1, lasts minutes per level; Cost 1x1x2000x2=4000, then modified by crafting costs)
Item of Extended Mordenkainen's Capable Caravel (Stormwrack) (8th=>9th level, CL 17, Lasts 1day/level, usable 1/17 days: Cost 9*17*1800/(5*17)=3240, for a 'permanent' ship w/ extradimensional space (More likely to use Extended Ice Castle (Frostburn) 1/2days at 21000, unless there's always a river/ocean)
Cloak of Continuous Knight Unburdened (Forge of War) (1st level, CL 1, lasts hours/level: Cost 1x1x2000=2000)

That last is priced almost exactly as the Tooth of Savnok, but ain't slotless, and doesn't affect carry-weight, but also isn't unique.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
Post by: Drammor on March 28, 2017, 05:00:30 AM
Yeah, go ahead and use those rules. If anything stands out or doesn't feel right, I'll bring it up. :)
Title: Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
Post by: Maelphaxerazz on April 02, 2017, 07:30:52 PM
Sources Allowed: ... some Pathfinder (ask).
An army of Russians (http://pathfinderwiki.com/wiki/Rasputin_Must_Die!) armed with machine guns, flamethrowers, and rifles (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment/weapons/firearms/modern-firearms/). Yea or nay? 

(http://i65.tinypic.com/28045g.jpg)
Title: Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
Post by: Drammor on April 02, 2017, 09:22:23 PM
Nay :|
Title: Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
Post by: Maelphaxerazz on April 02, 2017, 10:16:38 PM
Aww.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
Post by: Chemus on April 03, 2017, 04:58:34 AM
Umm...are we using Fractional BAB and Saves, or Whole Numbers? (With the Fractional, it's harder to get +22/12 (Good/Poor) to saves in 20 levels in Gestalt, and 2 half BAB classes 1 level apart don't get to BAB 19)
Title: Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
Post by: Drammor on April 03, 2017, 07:21:40 PM
Always fractional BAB/Saves :)
Title: Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
Post by: SorO_Lost on April 03, 2017, 07:57:17 PM
He probably only wanted the increase in BAB anyway, players trend towards asking for bonuses not nerfs :p
Title: Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
Post by: Chemus on April 03, 2017, 08:57:13 PM
Perhaps, but I can't get better than Full BAB, and So far my build has been Pal only on one side. I wanted the fractional saves to make the saves easier to calculate (for me) as I've been using a spreadsheet to set-up the PC, cohorts, Mounts, followers and equipment.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
Post by: SorO_Lost on April 04, 2017, 09:33:22 PM
I've been using a spreadsheet to set-up the PC, cohorts, Mounts, followers and equipment.
I can imagine the mess of paperwork, it's the main reason I didn't sign up as a primary player :p
Title: Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
Post by: ketaro on June 30, 2017, 08:15:00 PM
Bumping this incase Drammor shows back up cause I want to orc horde all over the place  :D
Title: Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
Post by: Rekmond on July 03, 2017, 11:41:29 AM
I'd have to dig up what happened to my stuff honestly. But yeah, I'd still be interested in seeing this happen.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
Post by: Archon on July 04, 2017, 07:20:17 AM
Okay, this seems really cool. I'd kinda like to do this.

(Also: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?204158-3-5e-Bloodline-Noble-Blood-(PEACH)&p=11258328#post11258328). Just putting that out there.

I have some nice ideas for a bard//various type build with that. Gets up to leadership 36 if I did the math right.

Edit: I didn't do the math right. Thought Firesoul was a +1 La Template. Oh well, I think I can still make it, if I make other trade-offs.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
Post by: Drammor on July 07, 2017, 08:34:56 AM
I have been distracted by MHX and thought the general interest here had been lost. I would be happy to reboot the 3.5 corner of my brain and figure out where I was with this, though.

Title: Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
Post by: ketaro on July 07, 2017, 09:08:44 AM
 :jumping
Title: Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
Post by: sirpercival on July 07, 2017, 09:12:35 AM
If there's room, I'd be all over this. Ley Engineer is just BEGGING to go into a campaign like this...
Title: Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
Post by: Archon on July 07, 2017, 09:48:24 AM
Yay!

(Current Character concept stands at Orog Bard//Warblade/dips with the noble blood line at major (and the draconian template, and might makes right as a feat). This gets up to leadership 36. Level 9 Followers! (well, 2, with extra followers).). I think. Probably best that someone check my math. I guess I will post the full build when things get going a bit more?).


Title: Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
Post by: Drammor on July 07, 2017, 10:07:49 AM
That bloodline would interact... interestingly, with the campaign rules. I mean, it would open up the PC classes for NPCs, but they wouldn't be able to gestalt, and they would be able to take PrCs, but they'd naturally still be subject to approval.

Hi Sirp!

Since it's been a while, we should double check on who's still able to and interested in playing. So, a roll call of sorts. And I'll talk to someone about getting a board.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
Post by: Archon on July 07, 2017, 10:28:25 AM
That bloodline would interact... interestingly, with the campaign rules. I mean, it would open up the PC classes for NPCs, but they wouldn't be able to gestalt, and they would be able to take PrCs, but they'd naturally still be subject to approval.

Hi Sirp!

Since it's been a while, we should double check on who's still able to and interested in playing. So, a roll call of sorts. And I'll talk to someone about getting a board.

Ah. I assumed that that effect wouldn't be relevant- I assumed, that since it was removing a restriction that functioned differently, it would be ignored.

But if you think it has a effect, well who am I to disagree?

So you think it should add on the classes from the PC gestalt lists to the possible follower classes? That will require some thought.

(and I am, of course, on board)

Title: Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
Post by: Rekmond on July 07, 2017, 10:37:42 AM
I've still got my sheets saved over on mythweavers. And I have an expense sheet for items in my documents (unfinished, but it is a start).

So I'd still be game.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
Post by: sirpercival on July 07, 2017, 10:47:11 AM
OK so I just looked again at the chargen guidelines, and I see that there's a very restricted list of allowed classes. Would you be open to accepting homebrew substitutes? I'm thinking a Jongleur (side A) // Wardancer (side B)? Jongleur is basically bard-meets-totemist, and wardancer is a barbarian/warblade with a dancey theme.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
Post by: Rekmond on July 07, 2017, 10:58:23 AM
Did you also notice the 1 approved homebrew per person rule?

This setup was quite interesting to build for lemme tell you.

Lets see.

I was building a Fey Blooded White Dragonspawn Dvati. Crusader/Barbarian with Paragon as my allowed homebrew. Though I was very close to using the Rage Powers from Pathfinder instead of Paragon.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
Post by: ketaro on July 07, 2017, 11:00:01 AM
My characters still exist so I'm still in~
Title: Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
Post by: sirpercival on July 07, 2017, 11:05:45 AM
Did you also notice the 1 approved homebrew per person rule?

This setup was quite interesting to build for lemme tell you.

Lets see.

I was building a Fey Blooded White Dragonspawn Dvati. Crusader/Barbarian with Paragon as my allowed homebrew. Though I was very close to using the Rage Powers from Pathfinder instead of Paragon.
Gah! Reading fail. I notice that base classes aren't on the example list, though...

EDIT: Drammor, would you approve the Bladecraft (http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?board=245.0) subsystem as my one piece of homebrew? I've been wanting to give it a try. If so, then I'll go Fighter // Binder.

(There are a couple of edits I made during the Interregnum which haven't been back-ported yet. It'll be a quick fix, and then writing the special combat rules is priority 1.)
Title: Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
Post by: Rekmond on July 07, 2017, 11:14:11 AM
Yeah, I'm pretty excited for a Leadership campaign. :D And hey, those are some great questions you have there. Let's see if I can knock any of them out.

1. Sorry about that. To clarify, each player will select a base class from list A, and another base class from list B. For players, no other base classes are allowed.

Quote from one of Drammor's first posts. So I think not. Could be wrong, but that's his words.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
Post by: Vladeshi on July 07, 2017, 11:18:17 AM
Still here, still ready.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
Post by: Drammor on July 07, 2017, 11:26:23 AM
I'm reading the Bladecraft system now, but it's going to take me at least a half hour to absorb what I'm looking at.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
Post by: sirpercival on July 07, 2017, 11:40:32 AM
I'm reading the Bladecraft system now, but it's going to take me at least a half hour to absorb what I'm looking at.
No worries :)
Title: Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
Post by: Rekmond on July 07, 2017, 11:43:08 AM
I forgot, but were we doing cross crafting?

My companion has Craft Wondrous and Extraordinary Artisan. If we have someone bardlike taking Requiem that'll free her up for Craft Magical Arms and Armor as well.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
Post by: Archon on July 07, 2017, 11:49:18 AM
I forgot, but were we doing cross crafting?

My companion has Craft Wondrous and Extraordinary Artisan. If we have someone bardlike taking Requiem that'll free her up for Craft Magical Arms and Armor as well.

My main is a bard. I can take requiem if I retrain a lower level feat slot for it.

Crafting sounds good. Can I put in a commission for +4 cha and str gear? I really need that, but it's a big chunk out of 9th level wbl.


Actually -. How does crafting XP work for followers. They don't have XP totals, but I have plenty of mid-level adept and warmage followers who could do lots of useful crafting.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
Post by: Rekmond on July 07, 2017, 11:55:17 AM
I forgot, but were we doing cross crafting?

My companion has Craft Wondrous and Extraordinary Artisan. If we have someone bardlike taking Requiem that'll free her up for Craft Magical Arms and Armor as well.

My main is a bard. I can take requiem if I retrain a lower level feat slot for it.

Crafting sounds good. Can I put in a commission for +4 cha and str gear? I really need that, but it's a big chunk out of 9th level wbl.


Actually -. How does crafting XP work for followers. They don't have XP totals, but I have plenty of mid-level adept and warmage followers who could do lots of useful crafting.

She can do that. Would be 6150 apiece unless you can provide the spells. (I include the scroll cost) still would be a third of your wbl.

mark 150 off the total price, forgot she had Eagle's Splendor on her list. doi.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
Post by: Archon on July 07, 2017, 12:00:24 PM
It's just bears strength and eagles splendor, right?

Can you get those from a adept follower? I forget how supplying prerequisite spells works. I have several followers who can cast that though.

Also, it's tottaly worth it, since it gets me up to that magic 36 leadership, which grants 9th level healer followers, and raise dead/revivify spells.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
Post by: Rekmond on July 07, 2017, 12:03:51 PM
Just a 2nd level arcane spell. But uh, you don't need to use npc classes for followers.

"Non-gestalt tier 4-6 and no prcs for followers."

That is back in Drammor's initial post on the Classes line.


But yeah, 12150 if you don't have Bear's Strength. 12K if you do.

I'm also investing in a few Field Provision Boxes to supply myself and my camp makers. (I don't have an army. Just people who maintain camp)
Title: Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
Post by: Archon on July 07, 2017, 12:08:51 PM
Adept, the NPC class, is a tier 4 class which gets these spells, along with a variety of other ones. It had versitility and a nice spell list.

Most of my army is warlocks, warmages and barbarians.

If what was talked about for my bloodline upthread goes ahead, probably some dread Necro and warblade too.

But adepts have a niche. So I have some, as level 6-8 followers.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
Post by: Rekmond on July 07, 2017, 12:14:53 PM
*shrugs* works for me.

Might go ahead and stat out my full list of items and then see what scrolls I might be able to bypass with a visit to your minion instead.

Right now I only need Create Food and Water, and Control Water. Divine spells levels 3 & 4.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
Post by: Archon on July 07, 2017, 12:37:22 PM
Oh yeah. I have to do gear also. I guess I'll do that tomorrow when I have some more free time and my laptop.

The follower crafting thing has some potential.

(Also, what class is your crafter?)
Title: Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
Post by: Rekmond on July 07, 2017, 12:40:38 PM
My cohort is a Pixie Bard/Warlock.


Kinda funny when I picture her crafting me a full sized set of fullplate or two.

But hey, small hands must mean more precision.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
Post by: Drammor on July 07, 2017, 12:48:42 PM
Gah! Reading fail. I notice that base classes aren't on the example list, though...

EDIT: Drammor, would you approve the Bladecraft (http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?board=245.0) subsystem as my one piece of homebrew? I've been wanting to give it a try. If so, then I'll go Fighter // Binder.

(There are a couple of edits I made during the Interregnum which haven't been back-ported yet. It'll be a quick fix, and then writing the special combat rules is priority 1.)

I'm still not perfect on how Bladecraft works, but I believe I have a rudimentary understanding, and would also like to see how it goes in practice. You can use the subsystem, sure.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
Post by: Chemus on July 07, 2017, 01:02:00 PM
I'm still here... gotta re-look at crafting focused cohort(s).
Title: Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
Post by: sirpercival on July 07, 2017, 01:17:30 PM
Gah! Reading fail. I notice that base classes aren't on the example list, though...

EDIT: Drammor, would you approve the Bladecraft (http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?board=245.0) subsystem as my one piece of homebrew? I've been wanting to give it a try. If so, then I'll go Fighter // Binder.

(There are a couple of edits I made during the Interregnum which haven't been back-ported yet. It'll be a quick fix, and then writing the special combat rules is priority 1.)

I'm still not perfect on how Bladecraft works, but I believe I have a rudimentary understanding, and would also like to see how it goes in practice. You can use the subsystem, sure.
AWESOME. OK, one fighter/binder coming up. :D
Title: Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
Post by: Drammor on July 07, 2017, 01:27:38 PM
I seriously have to stop accepting new players after this, though. I won't be able to handle any more. :tongue


On the other side of the spectrum, let me introduce you to one of the NPCs. He is a nameless man so unfortunate that he was exiled for the crime of being too ugly. Not even the most blind or deranged mother could love him. He's one of the few truly neutral characters you'll meet, and how your relationship with him goes is entirely up to you.

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
Post by: Rekmond on July 07, 2017, 01:45:02 PM
Quite the description. Not someone I'd like talking to in real life.

As an aside, to boost the utility of my few troops, all 23 of them. I am debating picking up a few siege weapons. Possibly a Heavy Mangonel and a pair of Heavy Ballista. Have the rest of my troops as replacement operators/defenders. Maybe lay some traps using Blast Disks or Exploding Spikes.

Thoughts and opinions?
Title: Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
Post by: Drammor on July 07, 2017, 02:27:54 PM
It would be a good choice once you get to defending a keep or other settlement in the city, yeah. Depending on if you go that route.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
Post by: sirpercival on July 07, 2017, 02:48:10 PM
I'm considering Warlock as an alternative to Binder (though I'm not sold yet either way). Drammor, would you rule that eldritch glaive can be used to make Assaults, Parries, etc.?

EDIT: Also, is PrCs on both sides of the gestalt kosher?
Title: Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
Post by: Drammor on July 07, 2017, 07:14:39 PM
Well, the easy one to answer is that prcs can occupy only one side of the gestalt.

The question about the eldritch glaive invocation is quite a bit more complicated. On one hand, it acts in several respects like a weapon, but it's not a weapon, and there is a large number of things it cannot do as a result. On the other, it is weapon-like enough to make multiple attacks if your BAB is high enough, and you can apply a few feats to it as if it were a weapon. In the end, though, I'm going to say it's a gray area and rule against it in general.

In specific, though, I think that the number of things it can't do should be examined in detail, and a feat or two to ameliorate the difference should be provided. I say this because there is quite a number of "this is not a weapon" details behind eldritch glaive, and allowing it would be a great boost in raw damage for a martial character. As a result, how it works with Bladecraft should be carefully calibrated, if you want to go in that direction at all.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
Post by: sirpercival on July 07, 2017, 07:27:18 PM
I just realized - you've okayed Bladecraft, but does that include the feats/ACFs/Blademaster PrC which make up the supporting material?
Title: Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
Post by: Rekmond on July 07, 2017, 07:37:02 PM
Upon careful consideration of the rules and many math. I have decided to drop the Siege Weapon idea for my mooks. It simply won't work 80% of the time.

the DC 10 Str part of the reloading check, I can get an Orc with +2 str and a +1 from a Marshall support...and for people to aid him requires a DC 10 profession check which can't be done untrained. +5 to this check at best without tooling them up.

and that doesn't even go into the dc 15 profession checks to Aim and reload. Much less if you ever need to repair the weapon.

I just can't see it working with a group of Level 1 characters.

edit. Even if I hash out the gold for the +2 bonus self-reloading (which isn't happening) the aiming would likely flop and they would hit the target once in every 6 or 7 shots.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
Post by: sirpercival on July 07, 2017, 07:43:27 PM
Upon careful consideration of the rules and many math. I have decided to drop the Siege Weapon idea for my mooks. It simply won't work 80% of the time.

the DC 10 Str part of the reloading check, I can get an Orc with +2 str and a +1 from a Marshall support...and for people to aid him requires a DC 10 profession check which can't be done untrained. +5 to this check at best without tooling them up.

and that doesn't even go into the dc 15 profession checks to Aim and reload. Much less if you ever need to repair the weapon.

I just can't see it working with a group of Level 1 characters.
Improved Aid Another improves the bonus to +4? The Superior Team Effort teamwork benefit from PHB2?
Title: Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
Post by: Rekmond on July 07, 2017, 07:45:57 PM
Upon careful consideration of the rules and many math. I have decided to drop the Siege Weapon idea for my mooks. It simply won't work 80% of the time.

the DC 10 Str part of the reloading check, I can get an Orc with +2 str and a +1 from a Marshall support...and for people to aid him requires a DC 10 profession check which can't be done untrained. +5 to this check at best without tooling them up.

and that doesn't even go into the dc 15 profession checks to Aim and reload. Much less if you ever need to repair the weapon.

I just can't see it working with a group of Level 1 characters.
Improved Aid Another improves the bonus to +4? The Superior Team Effort teamwork benefit from PHB2?

Yeah, but here's the thing. Standard stat array.
for that +1 aura from Marshal I have to give them a Cha boost which is easiest from race. Skill focus to make the check easier could work, but the odds are still gimped.

actually, .....4 ranks in Profession, +3 from SF, +1 from a Wis boosting Marshal, and I would have a +8 for those Profession checks. So I 'might' be able to make it work. forgot Skill Focus honestly.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
Post by: Drammor on July 07, 2017, 07:47:05 PM
I just realized - you've okayed Bladecraft, but does that include the feats/ACFs/Blademaster PrC which make up the supporting material?

The feats are fine, but the ACFs and PrC will have to wait for another occasion, I'm afraid.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
Post by: sirpercival on July 07, 2017, 10:20:06 PM
I just realized - you've okayed Bladecraft, but does that include the feats/ACFs/Blademaster PrC which make up the supporting material?

The feats are fine, but the ACFs and PrC will have to wait for another occasion, I'm afraid.
OK, no worries. I probably wasn't going to use the ACFs anyway, and the PrC (while awesome) would only have contributed one level to the build anyway.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
Post by: Archon on July 08, 2017, 01:05:08 AM
Okay, so currently my build is looking like this: (Sorry for the terrible formating)



Race: Draconic Orog With Major Noble Bloodline

Bard 9 // LA 2 Orog / LA 1 Draconic / Binder 1 / Warlock 1 / Warblade 4


target leadership score of 31 (Now 36)
9 (Level) + 9 (Natural Leader) + Cha  +Str (Might makes right) = 36


Native Stats:

    Starting   Bloodline   Orog Racial   Draconic Racial   Level-up    Items   Total
Str 15          +1          +6          +2                         +4       =28 (+9)
Dex 12                      -2                                              =10 (+0)
Con 12                                  +2                                  =14 (+2)
Int 12                                                                      =12 (+1)
Wis 7                       -2                                              =5  (-3)
Cha 17          +1          +2          +2             +2          +4       =28 (+9)


Level    Class 1   Class 2         Feats               
1      Bard     Orog LA       RETRAIN:Requiem         
2      Bard     Orog LA       BONUS:Force of Personality   
3      Bard     Binder      RETRAIN:Improved Cohort   
4      Bard    Draconic LA    BONUS:Leadership            
5      Bard    Warlock                         
6      Bard    Warblade      Might Makes Right        
7      Bard    Warblade                        
8      Bard    Warblade                        
9      Bard    Warblade      Extra Followers       

(The Bonus feats are from the bloodline, and I haven't noted the song of creations feats here)



(click to show/hide)



Gear: 16k +4 cha, 16k +4 str. Some other things. (I know these costs will be dropped - haven't done gear properly yet)

[/font]
Title: Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
Post by: Rekmond on July 08, 2017, 01:17:10 AM
Okay, so currently my build is looking like this: (Sorry for the terrible formating)

target leadership score of 31 (Now 36)
9 (Level) + 9 (Natural Leader) + Cha  +Str (Might makes right) = 36

The Leadership feats you have (aside from leadership itself) increase your score by 1 apiece. So Improved Cohort and Extra Followers add another +2 to your score.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
Post by: Archon on July 08, 2017, 01:20:10 AM
Okay, so currently my build is looking like this: (Sorry for the terrible formating)

target leadership score of 31 (Now 36)
9 (Level) + 9 (Natural Leader) + Cha  +Str (Might makes right) = 36

The Leadership feats you have (aside from leadership itself) increase your score by 1 apiece. So Improved Cohort and Extra Followers add another +2 to your score.

Do they? I didn't know that. That's really good. I'll start integrating the extra troops. No extra high levels, but another two companies doesn't go amiss.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
Post by: Rekmond on July 08, 2017, 01:23:57 AM
Okay, so currently my build is looking like this: (Sorry for the terrible formating)

target leadership score of 31 (Now 36)
9 (Level) + 9 (Natural Leader) + Cha  +Str (Might makes right) = 36

The Leadership feats you have (aside from leadership itself) increase your score by 1 apiece. So Improved Cohort and Extra Followers add another +2 to your score.

Do they? I didn't know that. That's really good. I'll start integrating the extra troops. No extra high levels, but another two companies doesn't go amiss.


"LEADER FEATS
This book introduces a new type of feat called leader feats.
Leader feats augment or alter the effects of the Leadership feat
(as presented on page 97 of the Player’s Handbook and described
in more detail on page 106 of the Dungeon Master’s Guide). Typically,
a leader feat affects your cohort and/or your followers but
has no effect on other allies.
 Since all leader feats include Leadership as a prerequisite,
their presence in the game is subject to the DM’s approval. If the
DM prefers not to include the Leadership feat in the campaign,
then all feats of the leader type are similarly off limits.
 In addition to their listed benefits, each leader feat taken by a
character improves his Leadership score by +1
."

Bottom paragraph on page 96 of Heroes of Battle.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
Post by: Archon on July 08, 2017, 01:27:39 AM
Thank you for pointing that out. I haven't read the book through yet. Add that too the to-do list.

Title: Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
Post by: Rekmond on July 08, 2017, 01:36:11 AM
No problem. I've still got a bit of work to do myself. Figuring out if I really want to run some siege engines for one. They'll be pricey and annoying. And I already have to equip two bodies since I'm fielding a Dvati as my pc.

I might just go with giving all my people Far Longbows with weapon focus and call it done.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
Post by: Archon on July 08, 2017, 01:52:10 AM
I have enough new troops for a third new company - I might make that siege, once I have read the rules. How effectively could 90 level 1-2's do siege, do you think?

Otherwise, it will be rouges and factotums, set up for infiltration.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
Post by: Rekmond on July 08, 2017, 02:00:46 AM
I have enough new troops for a third new company - I might make that siege, once I have read the rules. How effectively could 90 level 1-2's do siege, do you think?

Otherwise, it will be rouges and factotums, set up for infiltration.

for using Heavy Mangonels...you could easily do 6 per Engine and get your hits in. Heavy Trebuchet is where you'd want 10 per, but it also costs 3K base instead of 800. But has higher damage and distance. (1000 ft, 6d6 vs 1500 ft 14d6)

My setup is level 1s doing the labor while my level 3 and the pair of 2s are the crew Chiefs who do the actual firing.

And to craft any engine takes a dc 20 Craft Siege Engine check.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
Post by: Archon on July 08, 2017, 02:09:59 AM
Level one NPC's have 900gp WBL, according to this (https://www.dndarchive.com/forums/depth-roleplay-qa/character-wealth-level), which is what I have been using. If each crew member contributes 500gp of that to the siege engine fund, that pays for a lot of kit.

I'm thinking of 1 squad of 3 of the ten-man big ones, and 2 squads of 5 of the six-man ones, plus bards and marshals to buff, and a squad of hostlers to keep the horses and mobility for these things.

Also, speaking of NPC WBL, each of my 1500+ soldiers is contributing 100gp to the diamond fund, in exchange for a chance at getting resurrected out of it if they die in battle. (since my 9th level healers knows raise dead, this gives us a good fund to keep the main party members, and the better followers going even in hard times). And its good for morale, if the prize for "Most Glorious death that left a reasonably intact body" is being brought back to life.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
Post by: Rekmond on July 08, 2017, 02:12:56 AM
Also, speaking of NPC WBL, each of my 1500+ soldiers is contributing 100gp to the diamond fund, in exchange for a chance at getting resurrected out of it if they die in battle. (since my 9th level healers knows raise dead, this gives us a good fund to keep the main party members, and the better followers going even in hard times). And its good for morale, if the prize for "Most Glorious death that left a reasonably intact body" is being brought back to life.

And suddenly I'm wondering if I can use a catapult launch as a springboard for me to get to the battlefield faster. I do have flight, but well...a little assistance never hurt.

Hey wait, how are you using Bards for followers, they're tier 3.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
Post by: Archon on July 08, 2017, 02:18:16 AM
Also, speaking of NPC WBL, each of my 1500+ soldiers is contributing 100gp to the diamond fund, in exchange for a chance at getting resurrected out of it if they die in battle. (since my 9th level healers knows raise dead, this gives us a good fund to keep the main party members, and the better followers going even in hard times). And its good for morale, if the prize for "Most Glorious death that left a reasonably intact body" is being brought back to life.

And suddenly I'm wondering if I can use a catapult launch as a springboard for me to get to the battlefield faster. I do have flight, but well...a little assistance never hurt.


Hmm... Raptoran warmage 5. Or warblade 5. That would make for a good tie-break with the rapid deployment.

Assuming that they don't die painfully. That might happen too.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
Post by: Archon on July 08, 2017, 02:19:37 AM
My bloodline gives me:

Quote
Trained Followers: There's nothing worse than incompetents. They're useless and hardly worth the effort of subjecting them to the aura of command which the Noble-Blood emits. They're weak-willed enough to follow on their own, anyways. The Noble-Blood seeks more skilled followers. The followers attracted by the Leadership feat all have PC class levels instead of NPC class levels, at no level penalty. Followers with levels in prestige classes are treated as three levels higher than they actually are for terms of Leadership instead of five levels. Cohorts may freely have prestige classes.

Edit: Its this one:http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?204158-3-5e-Bloodline-Noble-Blood-(PEACH)&p=11258328#post11258328
Title: Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
Post by: Rekmond on July 08, 2017, 02:27:18 AM
Huh, so Drammor is letting that override his limitations. Useful.

I'll give you my notes on siege crew. I can say that Orcs are your best choice for ammo loaders, being the only LA 0 race with a +4 Str. Comes in handy for that DC 10 Str check.

Unless you want to splurge to get the +2 Autoloading enchant, which would require you to have a +1 as well. More than a bit pricey.

And Skill Focus Profession (Siege Engineer) is your friend.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
Post by: Archon on July 08, 2017, 02:29:52 AM
And then half-orcs to lead? that avoids the hit to wisdom, if firing is a profession check, and the fluff works better that way that suddenly switching to anthropomorphic toads or something.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
Post by: Rekmond on July 08, 2017, 02:33:23 AM
And then half-orcs to lead? that avoids the hit to wisdom, if firing is a profession check, and the fluff works better that way that suddenly switching to anthropomorphic toads or something.

Firing is actually 1d20 + BAB + Int mod with other modifiers as normal. Against the AC 15 square you are aiming for. (-6 if it is say, over a wall) You still need Siege Engineer with the crew chief for the loading and aiming though.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
Post by: Archon on July 08, 2017, 02:36:22 AM
And then half-orcs to lead? that avoids the hit to wisdom, if firing is a profession check, and the fluff works better that way that suddenly switching to anthropomorphic toads or something.

Firing is actually 1d20 + BAB + Int mod with other modifiers as normal. Against the AC 15 square you are aiming for. (-6 if it is say, over a wall) You still need Siege Engineer with the crew chief for the loading and aiming though.

Sure, Sure. Maybe tieflings then. I dunno. I'll think about it more, once I've read the rules myself. But 90 level ones, and 30 level twos have been set aside for this purpose, now.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
Post by: Drammor on July 08, 2017, 03:11:05 AM
Otherwise, it will be rouges and factotums, set up for infiltration.

Oh good. I was starting to worry no player would bring this up.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
Post by: Archon on July 08, 2017, 03:13:29 AM
Otherwise, it will be rouges and factotums, set up for infiltration.

Oh good. I was starting to worry no player would bring this up.

Oh, you think we need infiltrators? I can reassign one of the Shock Troop companies, I don't need 180 orc barbarians.

(also, I am going to have so many low-level NPC's to build. I will have to do pretty rough sketches. Do we get to pick feats and flaws for the followers?
Title: Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
Post by: Rekmond on July 08, 2017, 03:22:21 AM
I feel a grin stretching across my face. Hey Drammor, what is your opinion on Exotic Pets?

I think my cohort can quite effectively keep a few animals trained, so what kind of options might I have?
Title: Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
Post by: Archon on July 08, 2017, 03:25:29 AM
Pets sound good, but I will leave that to you. I will have lots of nice slow heavy.


Also, I want to say a bit about how I am making my army.

I am deriving inspiration from the praesi in a practical guide to evil - my forces are heavy infantry and mages mostly, focusing on power and versatility over speed or numbers (though there are lots of them). Tactics often involve using infantry (currently mostly consisting of lesser grey dwarf warblades) to screen large numbers of war-mages and warlocks, whose magic is the main element in defeating the enemy.

Forces are stiffened with heroes, marshals, bards, and levelled casters (mostly war-mages), when possible.

Any comments? what forces are other players fielding?
Title: Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
Post by: Rekmond on July 08, 2017, 03:29:44 AM
I have less than 30 archers. And myselves.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
Post by: Drammor on July 08, 2017, 03:30:24 AM
And suddenly I'm wondering if I can use a catapult launch as a springboard for me to get to the battlefield faster. I do have flight, but well...a little assistance never hurt.

You'd never survive the attempt. The Tumble check for such a thing is just too harsh. You are, of course, welcome to try.

Oh, you think we need infiltrators? I can reassign one of the Shock Troop companies, I don't need 180 orc barbarians.

(also, I am going to have so many low-level NPC's to build. I will have to do pretty rough sketches. Do we get to pick feats and flaws for the followers?

It's an army. Infiltration and sabotage are completely valid tactics.

(You may if you like.)

I feel a grin stretching across my face. Hey Drammor, what is your opinion on Exotic Pets?

I think my cohort can quite effectively keep a few animals trained, so what kind of options might I have?

Oh goodie! I finally get to use the rules for exotic pets! This came up in a different campaign once, so let me grab the files I need from the other computer. As it turns out, the game does have rules for them, you just have to know where to look. :D

Edit: It turns out this computer cannot read pdfs. I'm fixing that now.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
Post by: Archon on July 08, 2017, 03:40:16 AM
Yay for the feats.

(Is having all of my heavy infantry take Bind vestige, improved bind vestige and practised binder, with two flaws, fluffed as dwarvern ancestral armour, which is effectively +1 full plate and DR2/piercing for every one of my tanks, too much cheese?)

warrior of the phalanx and Shaky seem like appropriate Flaws.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
Post by: Drammor on July 08, 2017, 03:51:14 AM
It would be hard to fluff it that way, since it wouldn't be lootable gear. I'm afraid if that's what you want to do, you'll have to go about it head on.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
Post by: Archon on July 08, 2017, 03:54:45 AM
It would be hard to fluff it that way, since it wouldn't be lootable gear. I'm afraid if that's what you want to do, you'll have to go about it head on.

I'm happy to have the binders in the army - but by ancestral armour, I mean, they were summoning the power of their ancestors in the form of armour. (as opposed to summoning the power of a vestige in the form of armour)

Either way is fine with me.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
Post by: Drammor on July 08, 2017, 03:59:15 AM
Oh yeah, that's fine then.

Edit: Okay, to get this, I had to combine rules from the PHB, MM2 and A&EG.

If you want pets/exotic pets/et cetera, you'll need someone who can train them. This means either maintaining a hireling, or build followers for the purpose of training your pets. I think it's probably fair to say that a follower can train as many HD of pets as they have HD, themselves (so particularly HD-heavy pets would require multiple trainers all on their own).

If you want an exotic pet, you must pay the cost of training and rearing it. If you want it to be battle-capable, then it needs to be a warbeast (otherwise it will flee unless it makes a DC 15 Will save every time it feels threatened).

The market price of a warbeast is a function of its Hit Dice: 50 gp/HD for a warbeast of 3 HD or less, or 100 gp + 75 gp/HD for one of 4 HD or more.

There are no rules listed for what to do if you don't want a warbeast, other than to look at the various creatures that have specific costs listed, so I'd just say halve the cost/HD for a non-warbeast.

You also need to take these surcharges into account:

Handle Animal DC: 15–19 125 gp
Handle Animal DC: 20–24 250 gp
Handle Animal DC: 25–29 500 gp
Handle Animal DC: 30–35 1,000 gp
Unusual movement: 500 gp
(fly, swim, burrow)
Difficult special ability: 500 gp
(per special ability)
Vicious creature: 1,000 gp
Assistant required: 100 gp
(per assistant)
Charm monster scroll: 700 gp

And you should take this into account: Creatures with alien mindsets or ecologies (such as those from other planes) or those requiring unique equipment, can drive the price up even farther.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
Post by: Archon on July 08, 2017, 04:46:54 AM
Quick poll: Do I use spellscales or lesser assimar as the race for the Cha-needed followers. Currently my marshals and bards are spellscales, and my healers are lesser aasimar. (the only two +2 cha, LA 0 races I can find. )

But fluff-wise, spellscales are kinda chaotic, and aasimar are kinda good. What to do, with regard to having officers in the army of darkness which we seem to be forming here?
Title: Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
Post by: Drammor on July 08, 2017, 04:55:35 AM
Well, we aren't meant to be burdened by alignment, since personality is so much more complicated than that. So personally I'd say it's really up to you.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
Post by: Archon on July 08, 2017, 04:58:45 AM
Yeah, but the feel of a race still matters. But that, said, I like lesser aasimar, so if they will be loyal to me over their ancestors, I will go with that.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
Post by: sirpercival on July 08, 2017, 07:17:14 AM
As I dive into building this character for serious, can I have a quick rundown of what we already have? Including some basic army setups?

By the way, we should probably specialize, based on our respective builds, rather than trying to construct complete armies that all do everything. For example, since I'm rocking Bladecraft, my best bet is to max out on heavy & light infantry, and possibly cavalry as well (which would make me finish writing some of the special combat rules).
Title: Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
Post by: Archon on July 08, 2017, 07:24:31 AM
My character is a bard//warblade. I have mages up the wazoo (many warlocks and warmages, healers , a few dread necro and adepts). I also have heavy infantry to protect my mages, and a few specialists my numbers are from leadership 38 (which means like 1500+ troops, and level 9 followers - used for two healers). I can do blasting, but not manoeuvrability, or matching numbers in a fair melee.

I hope to win at least one fight with massed magic missile.

Light infantry and cavalry would be an ideal match.

Edit: My bloodline lets me take classes from the PC list as followers, so if you have suggestions re:PC classes worth throwing at things en mass, feel free to sing out. Right now, it mostly means all my fighters are actually warblades
Title: Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
Post by: sirpercival on July 08, 2017, 07:35:06 AM
Awesome. Infantry & cavalry I shall provide.

Hey Drammor, since there's no alignment, can I have a substitute class feature for Knight of the Sacred Seal's Aligned Strike? It's basically the only real class feature at KoSS 1.

EDIT: Is it kosher to build our own bloodlines (since the bloodline building rules are right there in the SRD)?

EDIT EDIT: Similar to the KoSS thing, how does Smite Evil/Good/etc. work?

EDIT EDIT EDIT: And aligned damage reduction?
Title: Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
Post by: Rekmond on July 08, 2017, 10:31:16 AM
Quick poll: Do I use spellscales or lesser assimar as the race for the Cha-needed followers. Currently my marshals and bards are spellscales, and my healers are lesser aasimar. (the only two +2 cha, LA 0 races I can find. )

But fluff-wise, spellscales are kinda chaotic, and aasimar are kinda good. What to do, with regard to having officers in the army of darkness which we seem to be forming here?

For the Marshalls and Bards on your Siege crews I'd definitely use the Aasimar. Extra +1 wis mod for that Profession check.

Oh yeah, that's fine then.

Edit: Okay, to get this, I had to combine rules from the PHB, MM2 and A&EG.

If you want pets/exotic pets/et cetera, you'll need someone who can train them. This means either maintaining a hireling, or build followers for the purpose of training your pets. I think it's probably fair to say that a follower can train as many HD of pets as they have HD, themselves (so particularly HD-heavy pets would require multiple trainers all on their own).

If you want an exotic pet, you must pay the cost of training and rearing it. If you want it to be battle-capable, then it needs to be a warbeast (otherwise it will flee unless it makes a DC 15 Will save every time it feels threatened).

The market price of a warbeast is a function of its Hit Dice: 50 gp/HD for a warbeast of 3 HD or less, or 100 gp + 75 gp/HD for one of 4 HD or more.

There are no rules listed for what to do if you don't want a warbeast, other than to look at the various creatures that have specific costs listed, so I'd just say halve the cost/HD for a non-warbeast.

You also need to take these surcharges into account:

Handle Animal DC: 15–19 125 gp
Handle Animal DC: 20–24 250 gp
Handle Animal DC: 25–29 500 gp
Handle Animal DC: 30–35 1,000 gp
Unusual movement: 500 gp
(fly, swim, burrow)
Difficult special ability: 500 gp
(per special ability)
Vicious creature: 1,000 gp
Assistant required: 100 gp
(per assistant)
Charm monster scroll: 700 gp

And you should take this into account: Creatures with alien mindsets or ecologies (such as those from other planes) or those requiring unique equipment, can drive the price up even farther.

My cohort currently has a +19 Wild Empathy check, and a +15 Handle Animal, while I have a +11 HA on my own without items.

If I can boost my leadership score 4 points. 2 is easily done with a cloak, the other 2 points, well options. I can either go with reputation or try for a Guildhouse etc. Or just pick it up via more items.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
Post by: Vladeshi on July 08, 2017, 11:58:30 AM
As I dive into building this character for serious, can I have a quick rundown of what we already have? Including some basic army setups?

My character is a Swordsage//Dread Necromancer specializing in fear, a Crusader//Rogue specializing in fear cohort(His cohort is a Bard//Rogue in charge of engineering),
and a Wildshaping Ranger//Warmage cohort(Think magical Stuka)

My plan for my army was
(click to show/hide)

The planned use for my army was Engineers, Army Trail, and Fire Brigades/Kampfgruppe/Defense in depth.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
Post by: Drammor on July 08, 2017, 12:26:38 PM
Awesome. Infantry & cavalry I shall provide.

Hey Drammor, since there's no alignment, can I have a substitute class feature for Knight of the Sacred Seal's Aligned Strike? It's basically the only real class feature at KoSS 1.

EDIT: Is it kosher to build our own bloodlines (since the bloodline building rules are right there in the SRD)?

EDIT EDIT: Similar to the KoSS thing, how does Smite Evil/Good/etc. work?

EDIT EDIT EDIT: And aligned damage reduction?

KoSS's Aligned Strike is now Aura Strike, without specific typing.

It is, but doing so counts as homebrew.

Smite Evil/Good/etc is Smite.

It's DR/Aura.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
Post by: Rekmond on July 08, 2017, 01:35:33 PM
Kinda curious if I could make THIS (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/story-feats/dynasty-founder-story/) work.

It would give me the boost I need to get a 5th level follower without item dipping, and since it can be taken before Leadership, it would work for me (As I only have 1 feat slot after grabbing Leadership at 6).
Title: Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
Post by: Drammor on July 08, 2017, 01:54:41 PM
Not that one, I'm afraid. You'll never be in a position to rule or manage your city, so you'd be ignoring the de facto costs of the feat.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
Post by: Rekmond on July 08, 2017, 01:57:05 PM
ah well. I'll spend a few K for that +3 competence bonus then. Diadem of Inspiring Rule (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/c-d/diadem-of-inspiring-rule/)
Title: Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
Post by: Drammor on July 08, 2017, 02:01:08 PM
Is everyone still agreed on worshiping Evening Glory?
Title: Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
Post by: Vladeshi on July 08, 2017, 02:25:15 PM
Is everyone still agreed on worshiping Evening Glory?

Changing the deity worshiped at this point would involve a complete personality rewrite of my character, so I would prefer that we stick with Evening Glory.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
Post by: Drammor on July 08, 2017, 02:29:58 PM
Oh boy oh boy oh boy. (http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?board=248.0)
Title: Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
Post by: Rekmond on July 08, 2017, 02:34:37 PM
yes and YAY, we gots a board.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
Post by: ketaro on July 08, 2017, 03:58:03 PM
"LEADER FEATS
This book introduces a new type of feat called leader feats.
Leader feats augment or alter the effects of the Leadership feat
(as presented on page 97 of the Player’s Handbook and described
in more detail on page 106 of the Dungeon Master’s Guide). Typically,
a leader feat affects your cohort and/or your followers but
has no effect on other allies.
 Since all leader feats include Leadership as a prerequisite,
their presence in the game is subject to the DM’s approval. If the
DM prefers not to include the Leadership feat in the campaign,
then all feats of the leader type are similarly off limits.
 In addition to their listed benefits, each leader feat taken by a
character improves his Leadership score by +1
."

Bottom paragraph on page 96 of Heroes of Battle.

So that counts Extra Followers, but does Might Makes Right count?
Gosh I just realized I didn't pick one of my bonus feats from Warlord and I never added in my Bloodline abilities, excluding the bonus feats.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
Post by: Rekmond on July 08, 2017, 04:09:01 PM
RAW, no Might Make Right isn't a Leader feat.

Drammor might rule otherwise though since it fits every marker of a Leader feat.