Author Topic: Trying to build a good moon druid  (Read 5080 times)

Offline NumberKruncher

  • Full Member
  • **
  • Posts: 192
  • Baruk Khazâd! Khazâd ai-mênu!
    • View Profile
Trying to build a good moon druid
« on: August 27, 2016, 03:44:06 AM »
Point buy, game will start at first level, playing in the new Frost Giants module.

I'm debating on whether or not to start as a level 1 barbarian. The CON saving throws are a boon, and raging while wildshaped is cool too.

Of course, this would mean taking a hit in spellcasting as well as my choices on what to shape shift into.

My other debate is on the optimal race for this character. Wild elf, hill dwarf, variant human and ghostwise halfling all have +1 WIS. The elf is fast and can use a bow, but I don't really care. The dwarf has a lot more HP which is nice. The variant human has a feat (warcaster, resilient CON, and magic initiate: cleric are all decent choices), and the halfling has halfling luck (which is awesome) and the very useful telepathy, which I believe can be used while wild shaped. Another option is the forest gnome. While the stats don't line up well, minor illusion is my favorite cantrip and advantage on all the mental saves is great, especially if I choose to start as a barbarian and am not proficient in any mental saves.

So, is a build based around whomping baddies in beast form worth the barbarian dip? If so, how many barbarian levels are recommended?

Secondly, what race is the best option for a shape shifting druid?

Thanks everybody. I look forward to reading your replies.
Dwarf FTW.

Offline awaken_D_M_golem

  • Epic Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 7639
  • classique style , invisible tail
    • View Profile
Re: Trying to build a good moon druid
« Reply #1 on: August 27, 2016, 03:02:21 PM »
Y'know ...  :-\ ... it occurs to me that a Druid + Barb combo
could Wildshape into something that has Insufficient Str
to still support the multiclassing from/into Barb.

That would restrict a number of the WS forms.
You could still do it, but the list would be short(-er)
and would need a fine toothed combing through.
(It's almost a 3e Polymorph + Prestige class qualifying problem.)

I'm partial to the Barb 6 Eagle into anything that works with it.
Sambojin did most work on Druid forms, that compliment.
Barb 7 is a decent get-out-of-jail ability.  Druid 11 is Druid 11.

Moon 2 / Monk 1, was spotted very early and is still tasty.
Your codpiece is a mimic.

Offline NumberKruncher

  • Full Member
  • **
  • Posts: 192
  • Baruk Khazâd! Khazâd ai-mênu!
    • View Profile
Re: Trying to build a good moon druid
« Reply #2 on: August 28, 2016, 02:34:29 PM »
I'm confused. I don't think the wildshape ability, or stats from the change, affect the barbarian abilities.
Dwarf FTW.

Offline Nunkuruji

  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • ***
  • Posts: 905
  • I shall bring great terror
    • View Profile
Re: Trying to build a good moon druid
« Reply #3 on: August 29, 2016, 05:22:51 PM »
You probably want both the Str and Con saves in melee. There are some melee things that force Str saves.

Offline awaken_D_M_golem

  • Epic Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 7639
  • classique style , invisible tail
    • View Profile
Re: Trying to build a good moon druid
« Reply #4 on: August 30, 2016, 04:35:24 PM »
I'm confused. I don't think the wildshape ability, or stats from the change, affect the barbarian abilities.

Let's say you had a Druid with this set of stats :  S 8 , D 8 , Con 8 , I 15 , W 15 , Cha 15
Then he Wildshapes into X and this happens (via 5esrd) ...
"While you are transformed, the following rules apply:
    Your game statistics are replaced by the statistics of the beast, but you retain your alignment, personality, and Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores.

OK so to multiclass into or out-of Barb, you have to have S of 13.
You re-work your stats.  Now say you decide to Wildshape.
Some of the forms have a Strength below 13.

And that's a problem, because you would have insufficient S
to have multiclassed in the first place.  Something happens here.
It isn't clear rules just yet. It might be bad, or it might be really bad.

Easiest homegame thing to do is avoid it altogether, and just not
run up against the question at all.
Barb + Druid multi doesn't pick WS forms with S below 13,
it picks one of the small pile of other forms with S above 13.
Your codpiece is a mimic.

Offline awaken_D_M_golem

  • Epic Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 7639
  • classique style , invisible tail
    • View Profile
Re: Trying to build a good moon druid
« Reply #5 on: August 31, 2016, 06:14:35 PM »
Thinkin' 'bout it s'more ...

Barb 1 / Moon 2 / Barb +2 / xyz mix and match barb 6 or 7 and/or druid 11+up

WS + Rage , go with Advantage all the time , Bear 3 eats half , WS absorbs the rest , party sits on their spells until rage proves to be unsuccessful
WS + 1 Conc spell , don't need or want to pick so many , party backliner pops another conc buff 1st on WS
Spells + 1 Summons(conc)
short rest
Repeat
long rest
Your codpiece is a mimic.

Offline NumberKruncher

  • Full Member
  • **
  • Posts: 192
  • Baruk Khazâd! Khazâd ai-mênu!
    • View Profile
Re: Trying to build a good moon druid
« Reply #6 on: September 01, 2016, 11:27:57 PM »
I'm confused. I don't think the wildshape ability, or stats from the change, affect the barbarian abilities.

Let's say you had a Druid with this set of stats :  S 8 , D 8 , Con 8 , I 15 , W 15 , Cha 15
Then he Wildshapes into X and this happens (via 5esrd) ...
"While you are transformed, the following rules apply:
    Your game statistics are replaced by the statistics of the beast, but you retain your alignment, personality, and Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores.

OK so to multiclass into or out-of Barb, you have to have S of 13.
You re-work your stats.  Now say you decide to Wildshape.
Some of the forms have a Strength below 13.

And that's a problem, because you would have insufficient S
to have multiclassed in the first place.  Something happens here.
It isn't clear rules just yet. It might be bad, or it might be really bad.

Easiest homegame thing to do is avoid it altogether, and just not
run up against the question at all.
Barb + Druid multi doesn't pick WS forms with S below 13,
it picks one of the small pile of other forms with S above 13.
I'm pretty sure most would rule your natural form would need the 13 STR to multiclass.

If a DM wanted to pick some nits, he might disallow the character to rage while in a form with <13 STR (which you probably wouldn't do anyway).

If I were set on this class combo, and the DM said "sure, but you can NEVER wild shape into anything with a STR <13, I'd just play something else. How is that balanced? How is that fun? There's no rule remotely similar to this in 5e.
Dwarf FTW.

Offline awaken_D_M_golem

  • Epic Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 7639
  • classique style , invisible tail
    • View Profile
Re: Trying to build a good moon druid
« Reply #7 on: September 09, 2016, 02:16:39 PM »
hmmm ... well you clearly feel that the rules over here that say you have to have an STR of 13 to multiclass into/out-of Barbarian are OK, and the WIS to multiclass into/out-of Druid are OK.

So the problem with the rules over there that say you have to have an STR of 13 to multiclass into/out-of Barbarian , are NOT o.k.


Yes of course you can respond with I'll Take My Ball And Go Home.
You could also just plain old Not break the rules.

If you intend to do so, then go right ahead.
Be honest that you're making a houserule.
There's nothing wrong with Houserules at all.
I like houserules.  I use houserules.  I call houserules to be houserules.
There is a distinction between Houserules and Not Houserules.

"I'm pretty sure most would rule your natural form would need the 13 STR to multiclass. "
Maybe so maybe not.  It's a houserule and maybe it's a good one (maybe not , who knows).
The rules mention normal form, and there is no need for a houserule, the rules already exists. 
Shifters come to mind as a possibility, might be a reasonable exception, might not be.

"If a DM wanted to pick some nits, he might disallow the character to rage while in a form with <13 STR (which you probably wouldn't do anyway)."
Again it's houserules, maybe good ones maybe not.
Your codpiece is a mimic.

Offline NumberKruncher

  • Full Member
  • **
  • Posts: 192
  • Baruk Khazâd! Khazâd ai-mênu!
    • View Profile
Re: Trying to build a good moon druid
« Reply #8 on: September 10, 2016, 10:44:26 PM »
Wait, you were serious?

You seriously think if I start with a 13 STR/WIS barbarian, and then multiclass into a druid, advance a few levels, and then shape change into a squirrel (or whatever) with a STR <13 the game is broken in some way?

Holy shitsnacks, that's funny.
Dwarf FTW.

Offline awaken_D_M_golem

  • Epic Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 7639
  • classique style , invisible tail
    • View Profile
Re: Trying to build a good moon druid
« Reply #9 on: September 13, 2016, 04:16:26 PM »
(sigh)
Houserules it is, then.

I don't see any implication of "broken" in what I posted, I was talking about rules.
However, since you've opened that can of worms ...

Lets say you Wildshaped into a Frog.
http://www.5esrd.com/gamemastering/monsters-foes/monsters-alphabetical/monsters-a/animals/animal-frog
Strength of 1 is bad, and causes all sorts of problems.
If you whoopsied on retaining some of your gear into your form, you're now overburdened.
Otherwise drop all of your gear, and good luck picking them up in combat when your WS runs out.
And it will because your Barb based AC is 10.  That's bad.
You also have to take your Armor off, to keep from being even more overburdened.
Can't really do that in combat.
You'd have to have a shield only when in non WS form.

And be careful dropping the shield else this happens :

Oh my shield's too big !!


** apologies, Frog-in-a-box is not an internet meme.

And don't forget the DM Fiat that comes into play if some things are done differently
5esrd "Worn equipment functions as normal, but the GM decides whether it is practical for the new form to wear a piece of equipment, based on the creature’s shape and size."
Your codpiece is a mimic.

Offline sambojin

  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 472
  • It's a game. Have fun.
    • View Profile
Re: Trying to build a good moon druid
« Reply #10 on: September 13, 2016, 07:39:53 PM »
I can't see there being a problem multiclassing into Barb if your base stats are high enough, and once you're a Barb, you can do barbarian things.

I don't think you'd lose your ability to Rage in different wildshapes (you don't get un-Barb'd by temporarily changing strength, the same as how you can't multiclass into it from temporary boosts), it just wouldn't be useful in some forms. It's a DM choice thing, but I think most would let you Rage in any form.

Otherwise it gets silly (taking a Monk level because you WS into something dex'y, although your base stats aren't usually high enough would be equally allowable then). And abilities would turn on and off due to form.

So, multiclassing is always worked off base stats where I play, and when you've got the class level, you get its abilities. Stat changes can effect outcomes, but not switch on or off abilities. Whether we are playing that correctly or not, I don't know.


The equipment thing is 100% true though.