Author Topic: Hood?  (Read 13874 times)

Offline nijineko

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Re: Hood?
« Reply #20 on: November 23, 2011, 12:31:19 AM »
Avatar: The Last Airbender
Not actually anime, certainly done in an anime style but it was produced in America.

[japanese language nitpik] given that the word "anime" in japanese is simply a shortened version of the 'japanized' version of "animation"; and that animation IS what "anime" means in japanese... it most certainly is anime. [/japanese language nitpik]

now, by the re-americanized version of the word "anime" meaning 'japanese animation' specifically, then in a narrow context, your point could be conceded.

Offline littha

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Re: Hood?
« Reply #21 on: November 23, 2011, 12:49:18 AM »
By narrow context you mean the generally recognised meaning of the word by 90% of people outside of japan right?

Offline nijineko

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Re: Hood?
« Reply #22 on: November 23, 2011, 12:58:51 AM »
anime is a recognized word with that meaning in english speaking countries only, more or less. that's not even 2/3 of the world, let alone 90% =P

poking around the internet yields an english speaking to world population ratio of roughly around 8% give or take a few, or 28%-ish if you include ESL speakers too. of all of those english and esl speakers, not all of them know the word anime. and of those that do, not all of them learn the incorrect meaning.

so yeah, stance justified. =D

Offline littha

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Re: Hood?
« Reply #23 on: November 23, 2011, 01:01:14 AM »
Bearing in mind the portion of the worlds population who have never encountered it at all, most of africa, asia and south america I would have thought the ratio would be better than that.


Also, the definition of anime in english language dictionaries specifically refers to japan.
« Last Edit: November 23, 2011, 01:03:26 AM by littha »

Offline nijineko

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Re: Hood?
« Reply #24 on: November 23, 2011, 01:08:48 AM »
my figures are rough, very rough, and based on english speaking ratios, and guesswork after that, loosely based on my experiences living in other countries.

besides, english speaking is on the decline somewhat, due to drops in birthing rates in speaking countries and increases in birthing in other countries.

the vast majority of americans who do know the word, know it by that meaning. i'm an exception due to having lived there, among other places, and speaking conversational level japanese fluently. they call american animation "anime" too. or "amerikan anime" to japanize it in romaji.

Offline littha

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Re: Hood?
« Reply #25 on: November 23, 2011, 01:25:12 AM »
Oh I know that Japan does, not an entirely surprising thing either.

My point is that pretty much everyone you are going to be talking English (and thus this forum) to will think of Japanese animation first and foremost upon encountering the word.

To such an extreme as for that to be the dictionary definition of the word.

Quote from: Collins English Dictionary
anime (ˈænɪˌmeɪ)
 
—n
   a type of Japanese animated film with themes and styles similar to manga comics
 
[C20: from Japanese]
« Last Edit: November 23, 2011, 01:27:51 AM by littha »

Offline nijineko

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Re: Hood?
« Reply #26 on: November 23, 2011, 01:31:46 AM »
dictionaries have been wrong before, and will be again. unless they call that out as slang, then i'd be inclined to correct them on it. which dictionary where was that again? i'll see if i can get them to change it. =D

Offline Mooncrow

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Re: Hood?
« Reply #27 on: November 23, 2011, 01:44:05 AM »
[minor language nitpick] Since we're writing in English, we can reasonably be expected to be using the English definition of the word; if we were writing in Japanese, you would be correct. [/minor language nitpick]

Just be thankful that the English speaking world picked up on "anime" to describe Japanese animation, instead of staying with "Japanimation" :p

Offline Kethrian

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Re: Hood?
« Reply #28 on: November 23, 2011, 01:45:56 AM »
Wow, quite the debate I inadvertently started!

And here I was just using the word to describe the art style, regardless of where it was made.  I mean, when you've got shows like Spider Riders, which is produced by a combination of both Canadian and Japanese, does it really still fit the "must be from Japan" mold?  And I'm sure there are other shows that have the anime style looks but are not from Japan, so what should they be classified as, if anime is only for animation from Japan?
What do I win?
An awesome-five for mentioning Penny Arcade's On the Rain-Slick Precipice of Darkness.

Offline nijineko

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Re: Hood?
« Reply #29 on: November 23, 2011, 01:57:49 AM »
we can also expect proper research and defining of the word in the first place. "dictionaries" that define it wrong are epic fail.

agreed about "japanimation"... bleh. *shiver*

i would suggest anime-style, maybe? avatar had a number of nationalities working on it, so it makes it hard to pick. not to mention all the chinese based martial arts... i about cheered when i first saw the ba-gua moves.


oh, and i turn myself in for serious thread-jacking. sorry.

Offline littha

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Re: Hood?
« Reply #30 on: November 23, 2011, 01:58:54 AM »
dictionaries have been wrong before, and will be again. unless they call that out as slang, then i'd be inclined to correct them on it. which dictionary where was that again? i'll see if i can get them to change it. =D

That was my paper copy of the collins english dictionary. Dictionaries are supposed to be a record of a language as it is used, not as people think it should be used which is why there are also words like "lol" in there.

Some of the online ones go out of their way to point out that your usage of anime is a proscribed use and thus to be avoided.

Offline Mooncrow

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Re: Hood?
« Reply #31 on: November 23, 2011, 02:00:57 AM »
Borrowed words become what they become, regardless of what the meaning in the original language was.  Similar to how sake means rice wine in English, but is just the general term for alcohol in Japan (at least until very recently)

Offline littha

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Re: Hood?
« Reply #32 on: November 23, 2011, 02:02:44 AM »
Borrowed words become what they become, regardless of what the meaning in the original language was.  Similar to how sake means rice wine in English, but is just the general term for alcohol in Japan (at least until very recently)

Along those lines, see Sushi

Offline nijineko

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Re: Hood?
« Reply #33 on: November 23, 2011, 03:01:24 AM »
heheh.

along the same lines. look up "dork".

^^

Offline Mooncrow

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Re: Hood?
« Reply #34 on: November 23, 2011, 03:03:11 AM »
heheh.

along the same lines. look up "dork".

^^

Indeed^^

Offline nijineko

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Re: Hood?
« Reply #35 on: November 23, 2011, 03:11:46 AM »
sigh. i get all prickly about language sometimes. sorry. i can barely tolerate watching dubs, and even subs will grate on me sometimes, especially when they differ in translating styles from my preferences. (for example: japanese has no actual swear words. to pick one example, "kuso" literally means feces, hence the usual translation. but it is not a swear word in any sense like english has swear words.)

even miyazaki flicks, which have pretty quality dubs and subs via disney, cannot be listened to without muffled cries of "that's not what they really said!!" the wife even knows when to cover my mouth. (a slight exaggeration, but you get the point.)

if i haven't seen the original, i'm usually fine, aside from the obvious cultural misses, that is. My pattern of cringes is telling.

i'm one of those sad JSL speakers who actually get the jokes in the old samurai flicks... in the original japanese....
« Last Edit: November 23, 2011, 03:16:34 AM by nijineko »

Offline McBeardly

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Re: Hood?
« Reply #36 on: November 24, 2011, 09:12:30 PM »
All of this argument aside Avatar is still a good show that's worth checking out and has similar themes to many shonen anime series. Additionally it has a native english voice cast making the inflections and tones easier for a native english speaker to understand.

Also just an aside if a word is said in frustration and is considered inappropriate to use in polite company it is a swear word. Swear words existed before religious organizations attached extra meaning to them, so if the person is saying a word that means feces after something bad happens to them unless it's a case of cultural osmosis from the west it's a swearword.
« Last Edit: November 24, 2011, 09:15:57 PM by McBeardly »

Offline nijineko

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Re: Hood?
« Reply #37 on: November 25, 2011, 01:33:13 AM »
exactly. hence, japanese has no swear words. the meaning attached to differing levels of politeness do not qualify in the same way at all, even without religious overtones.

Offline McBeardly

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Re: Hood?
« Reply #38 on: November 25, 2011, 11:19:41 AM »
exactly. hence, japanese has no swear words. the meaning attached to differing levels of politeness do not qualify in the same way at all, even without religious overtones.

So wait most of the time I hear kuso used it's by a character who lost in a Japanese fighting game. Is that just the result of WEstern influence or is there something I'm not getting?

Offline Mooncrow

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Re: Hood?
« Reply #39 on: November 25, 2011, 11:23:08 AM »
exactly. hence, japanese has no swear words. the meaning attached to differing levels of politeness do not qualify in the same way at all, even without religious overtones.

So wait most of the time I hear kuso used it's by a character who lost in a Japanese fighting game. Is that just the result of WEstern influence or is there something I'm not getting?

It's all about context and inflection.  Kuso can be used as an expletive, but it's not inherently a swear word.