Author Topic: [3.5] 'Unlimited' Wizard, e6 'friendly.' Sorta.  (Read 11226 times)

Offline Chemus

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[3.5] 'Unlimited' Wizard, e6 'friendly.' Sorta.
« on: August 12, 2016, 05:50:47 AM »
This character can cast 'unlimited' 3rd level spells at 6th level. Presuming that 4th level spells exist in E6 play, this works with that as well.

(click to show/hide)

Necropolitan Human Wizard
F: Invisible Spell
F: Rapid Spell (Has no other MM prereq., all the others do)
H: Repeat Spell
W1: Scribe Scroll
1: Collegiate Wizard
2: (Get Mnem Enh via Collegiate Wiz)
Moderate Taint Feat: Spell Mastery (Mnem Enh)
Severe Taint Feat: Sig. Spell (Mnem Enh)
3: (Open)
4:
W5: (Open)
5:
6: Arcane Thesis (Mnemonic Enhancer) (Cast Sanctum Mnem Enh from 3rd slot)

(If Collegiate Wizard is unnecessary to get a 4th level spell in an e6 Spellbook, dump it. In case you're unable to use it to learn 4th's in e6, there's always Arcane Disciple (Spell), which has Mnem. Enh as a 4th. Outside e6, Arcane thesis (M's Lucub.) for when you have actual 5th slots. Perhaps delay things by not being a Necropolitan so that you can actually use DCFS.)

Trick:
1. By 'losing' 3rd level prepared spell, cast (Invisible -1 slot, Sanctum -1 slot and -1 spell level, Rapid +0, Repeat +2 slot) Mnemonic Enhancer.

2. Use the 3-levels' worth of slots to prepare a spell.

3. The following round, Mnemonic Enhancer re-casts.

4. Get Mnem. Enh. 'back' with the Retain function (prepares Invis, Sanctum, Rapid, Repeat Mnem Enh).

5. Cast the prepared (Invis, Sanctum, Rapid, Repeat) Mnem Enh., See 2-4

Do it again. Each minute+2rds, you have an extra 3rd level spell prepped. Be sure not to skip prepping an I.S.R.R Mnem. Enh to recharge again later. Rapid Spell makes this 1 3rd slot/minute, rather than 1/10 mins, so be sure to use it.



Past 6th play/non-e6 games:

Take Arcane Thesis (Mage's Lucubration), Sig. Spell M's Lucub. Lose a prepped 5th spells to Cast it once (Repeat, invisible, sanctum), to get it 'back' as a 5th (sanctum) level spell, then get any other 5th (6th w/ sanctum applied) or lower spell, you've cast within the last 24h. You will pretty much never run out of '6th' or lower spells, as long as you apply sanctum to them! (-1 to saves is hard. It's the price, though)

Edited to clean up, and effectively put back to orig.
« Last Edit: August 17, 2016, 05:32:20 AM by Chemus »
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Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: [3.5] 'Unlimited' Wizard, e6 'friendly.' Sorta.
« Reply #1 on: August 12, 2016, 12:40:39 PM »
Other than A wizard cannot take VA and you're probably trying to use Sanctum in a way you can't, what's the sell over any other generic reduced-Twined/Repeated Lubrication or even Spell Storing Arrows & downtime? E6? Hmm...

A Sorcerer can use VA, Arcane Disciple(spell) to learn Rary's Mnemonic Enhancer, Arcane Preparation to benefit from it, and any form of Metamagic reduction ftw. Like there is something out there in D&D that lets you get one extra Rank in a Skill above normal, I seriously need to add it to my Skill section to make recalling it easier, but maybe it can be used for a Sorcerer to snag two levels of Tainted Scholar in an E6 game. I just can't think of the name of what I'm thinking of to check.

But anyway, you're probably wanting a Wizard. Well of course the easy method is the "official" E6 rules reduce PB to pay for LA, thus for +4 LA your PB is reduced to 0 but you can start as a Spellcasting monster. Combine with Energy and failed Saves to reduce your HD you can pull something like a Hobgoblin Warcaster / Wizard 5 and access 5th level Spells which can give you a lot of lee way to do things. Without negative levels, I'm not entirely sure what could be useful for a Wizard in this area since most creatures use Sorcerer or even Cleric casting. Again a little more investigation may turn up something.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2016, 12:42:27 PM by SorO_Lost »

Offline Chemus

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Re: [3.5] 'Unlimited' Wizard, e6 'friendly.' Sorta.
« Reply #2 on: August 12, 2016, 02:44:04 PM »
...A wizard cannot take VA...
Versatile Spellcaster is qualified for via Signature Spell: "...You may now convert prepared arcane spells of that spell's level or higher into your signature spell, just as a good cleric can spontaneously cast prepared spells as cure spells...", which satisfies VS's requirement "Ability to spontaneously cast spells"

Quote
... and you're probably trying to use Sanctum in a way you can't ...
How I'm using it is to get a 4th level spell to be a 3rd level spell for 'all effects dependent on spell level... Hmm... damn, you appear to be right; sanctum, alone, doesn't allow higher level spells to be cast from lower slots, even spontaneously. The Metamagic section shows that. Fortunately, it's still useful early-on to pay for Repeat Spell via Arcane Thesis. The trick is getting 3rd level slots from Mnem. Enh. for free, which Versatile Spellcaster still does. The repeat spell will let you get the Mnem. Enh. 'back' because of Sanctum spell, and the fact that Mnem. Enh. has an effect related to spell level. I'll fix the trick's wording to reflect this later.

Later, past e6, it's good for getting your 6th level spells back via M's Lucub., as that too has an effect related to spell level.

Quote
... what's the sell over any other generic reduced-Twined/Repeated Lubrication or even Spell Storing Arrows & downtime? E6? ...
You got it. This is a low-level build that can pull off 9 extra 3rd level spells per 10 minutes, as long as it has a 3rd level spell prepared. By leaving slots open as per the wizard spell prep section, Versatile Spellcaster can have slots available.

Quote
... Hmm... A Sorcerer can use VA, Arcane Disciple(spell) to learn Rary's Mnemonic Enhancer, Arcane Preparation to benefit from it, and any form of Metamagic reduction ftw ...
That's a very nice catch! I ignored the Spell Domain re: sorcerers. I'll have to look if that can tighten the build. Perhaps use the Web Kobold Feat+rituals to get even casting levels w/ wiz.

However, the sorcer can't know spells of a level it can't cast. You've often pointed out that you must be high enough level to gain the ability to cast X level spells. While I don't concede that argument, or even really want to get into it in this thread, this build sidesteps it due to the wizard getting free spells for his spellbook via Collegiate Wizard.

Arcane Thesis only requires the ability to cast the specific spell in question, which Versatile Spellcaster (2 3rds to cast a 4th known) plus Collegiate Wizard (known spells) satisfies, so that method's good for Wizard only, AFAIK.

Quote
... there is something out there in D&D that lets you get one extra Rank in a Skill above normal ...
You are almost definitely thinking of:
Favored (Feat, City) You are an organization or guild member. +2 competence bonus to a related skill, plus other benefit.

Which is required for Primary Contact (Feat, City) You gain 1 bonus Rank in a skill related to your organization.

Quote
... anyway, you're probably wanting a Wizard. Well of course the easy method is the "official" E6 rules reduce PB to pay for LA, thus for +4 LA your PB is reduced to 0 but you can start as a Spellcasting monster. Combine with Energy and failed Saves to reduce your HD you can pull something like a Hobgoblin Warcaster / Wizard 5 and access 5th level Spells which can give you a lot of lee way to do things. Without negative levels, I'm not entirely sure what could be useful for a Wizard in this area since most creatures use Sorcerer or even Cleric casting. Again a little more investigation may turn up something.

Good idea on the LA and HD reductions. You're right that Hob Warcaster looks hot!

Thanks for the input.
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Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: [3.5] 'Unlimited' Wizard, e6 'friendly.' Sorta.
« Reply #3 on: August 13, 2016, 10:35:51 AM »
Versatile Spellcaster is qualified for via Signature Spell:
Spontaneous Spells are defined as not needing preparation and what you have is a substitution of one prepared spell into another that's incapable of working without preparation, there are also other details that'll negate the idea forming in your head (like RC flat out says pusdo-spon still your normal casting or tldrpt2 requirements check base ability not added exceptions) but that's a quick tl;dr of it.

However, the sorcer can't know spells of a level it can't cast.
That's entirely right it needs a forced known mechanic, like being a Warmage should do it since they auto-know their entire List and I'm pretty sure Disciple directly adds those Spells. Just watch your Wisdom score.

Which is required for Primary Contact (Feat, City) You gain 1 bonus Rank in a skill related to your organization.
Yeah that's it. Think of how useful it'd be for early PrC entry in a normal game, then consider E6 which pretty much prevents most people from even obtaining a second PrC level but hands out bonus Feats. And yet, no one has ever written a handbook or even a quick mention guide-of-use on it.

So to combine, Warmage 4 / Tainted Scholar 2 w/ Arcane Disciple/Preparation from Flaws, Favored/Primary as Human/1st/3rd, then VA and either Twin or Repeat in whatever remains up to a E6 Bonus with Rapid being a later on luxury. Alternatively, Warmage 5 / Spelldancer 1 delves much further into E6 and pretty much requires selling your soul to a Devil for Feats since you need six of them before the 6th level but using E6's LA rules you might find a good creature to use as a fallen angel anti-hero for some nice fluff.

Thanks for the input.
Your welcome.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2016, 12:01:02 PM by SorO_Lost »

Offline Chemus

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Re: [3.5] 'Unlimited' Wizard, e6 'friendly.' Sorta.
« Reply #4 on: August 13, 2016, 12:59:16 PM »
Versatile Spellcaster doesn't require 'spontaneous spellcaster' nor does it say 'you must not prepare spells' but merely requires the "ability to spontaneously cast spells", which Signature Spell and Spontaneous Divination each satisfy. Your reading of RC's 139 clause 'otherwise functions as normal spellcasting' is in error; it comes after two sentences calling the casting spontaneous, and under the heading 'Other Spontaneous Casting'. You may feel it's too powerful, but it's spontaneous casting of spells, and qualifies for the feat. Additionally, wizards have spell slots with which to power the feat's casting, and know any spell they've learned. They just have to take Spon. Div., or Sp. Mas.+Sig. Sp. in order to take VS.

That's not to say that this makes the wizard a 'spontaneous spellcaster'; that's precluded by another section above. Learning Spells says "Spontaneous casters gain spells by gaining levels in their class. They never gain spells any other way." That's what precludes Wizards, Clerics, Druids, Archivists, etc. from counting as spontaneous spellcasters or having levels in a spontaneous spellcasting class. But if a feat or class requires the spontaneous casting, then Spon Div/Sig Sp qualifies.

My contention that the Sig Spell wizard was a spontaneous caster was incorrect, but it does have the ability to cast spells spontaneously.


Regarding warmage, unfortunately they don't know their list until they gain access to spells of that level (8th level for 4th spells).
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Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: [3.5] 'Unlimited' Wizard, e6 'friendly.' Sorta.
« Reply #5 on: August 13, 2016, 02:59:11 PM »
I like how your argument is at odds with it's self. One part asserting that "ability to spontaneously cast spells" can mean something but VA's access to the next Spell Level doesn't, it's a very fine line of hypocritical. Can you please you remain consistent long enough for me to find an answer that works within your houserules?

Offline Chemus

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Re: [3.5] 'Unlimited' Wizard, e6 'friendly.' Sorta.
« Reply #6 on: August 13, 2016, 04:42:24 PM »
I hadn't considered that Versatile Spellcaster could be generic enough to open up the Warmage's 4th level knowledge. That's pretty good; Sor/Brd, etc., have that pesky spells known table to contend with. That's not bad at all for the often hosed warmage. That lets a Warmage get the recharge too.

So you're suggesting Warmage 4 (CArc)/Tainted Scholar 2 (HoH).

Presuming that you're paying for Rapid Spell with the Blooded MM secret, then note that "You cannot enhance a spell to a level higher than you can cast...", and you'd need to cast Mnem Enh as a 6th for this. So perhaps ignore Tainted Scholar for your build.

Your Warmage could be Necropolitan, get moderate and severe Depravity, for 2 bonus feats. If human/strongheart halfling, he has 6 feats by 6th, without flaws. He needs:
Sanctum Spell (to make Mnem Enh 3rd for effects, like Mnem Enh)
Repeat Spell (to get Mnem twice per cast. It's cheaper than Twin, and doesn't force all identical decisions)
Arcane Disciple (Spell, for Mnem Enh on list)
Arcane Preparation (To use Mnem. Enh to prepare rather than retrieve last round's spell)
0-adjustment MM feat (Invisible or Cooperative) or Practical MM (Repeat Spell)
Arcane Thesis (Mnem. Enh., to reduce the cost of Repeat Spell to 0)
[optional] Rapid Spell (to take less than 10min per casting).

Rapid spell is the only MM on the above list w/o prereqs, so take it and, say, Arcane Prep at 1st. Get to 3rd, go Necropolitan down to 1st again. Get Severe Depravity, get 2 feats; Arcane Disciple (Spell) and Versatile Spellcaster. Get to 3rd and take Sanctum Spell. At 4th, retrain Rapid to Invisible Spell. At 6th, Arcane Thesis (Mnem Enh.). Trick works w/ 10 min casting. Re-take Rapid Spell as e6 bonus feat, or at 9th. Warmage would be hard pressed to get M's Lucubration, as far as I can tell, so Arcane Thesis won't help. So warmage seems limited to 3rd/4th level spells only for recharging this. Typical. Edit: Greater Anyspell preps a 5th level sor/wiz, so M's Lucu. is able to be prepped and cast. Repeat Spelling it is harder. Don't have a thought on that yet. /Edit

Crap! Warmage may not be able to do it; Arcane Disciple is 1/day cast or prepared of each level! In that case, this merely trades 2 3rd slots for 2 3rd slots, since re-preparing... whew! False alarm! You can only cast it once spontaneously, or prepare it once, but it is retrieved as a prepared spell on the 2nd casting, for use again.

My build in the OP is not exclusively for e6 play, but trying to optimize it for lowest possible level. I think I can get rid of flaws if I delay Rapid spell to 6th+ feats, and if I use Spontaneous Divination instead of  Magical Training, I can remove Campaign Specific (other than Taint) material. Spont Div is sticky though; when retraining, you would need to have qualified for the feat at the level you took it, and at the level you took the feat you're retraining...
« Last Edit: August 13, 2016, 04:55:03 PM by Chemus »
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Offline Endarire

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Re: [3.5] 'Unlimited' Wizard, e6 'friendly.' Sorta.
« Reply #7 on: August 13, 2016, 08:21:53 PM »
Would taking 2 flaws for feats help?

Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: [3.5] 'Unlimited' Wizard, e6 'friendly.' Sorta.
« Reply #8 on: August 13, 2016, 10:41:25 PM »
I hadn't considered that Versatile Spellcaster could be generic enough to open up the Warmage's 4th level knowledge.
Because officially it doesn't just like a VA doesn't work like you're trying to use it either.

And if you're trying to fit within a normal game, aka no extra Feats, mindful that the concept of infinite Spells is super broken. Really, you might as well as actually use the super broken stuff to achieve it like a LA-Buyoff Drained/Retrained Lore Drake Steel Dragon or Dragonspawn Abomination. Of course, StP Erudite as mentioned in the other thread already has infinite 2nd level Spells/Disciplines & 3rd level Universals pretty much built-in as intended.

Offline Chemus

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Re: [3.5] 'Unlimited' Wizard, e6 'friendly.' Sorta.
« Reply #9 on: August 14, 2016, 12:34:04 AM »
Would taking 2 flaws for feats help?

It would. I started out with both flaws and taint and about 8 feats by level 6. I was trying to get the unlikely to be allowed items out. Unfortunately, both flaws and taint are optional components, so either or both make the build less 'acceptable'. I kept taint rather than flaws mostly on a whim; I feel that taint is more 'official', being from a book not labeled as a collection of houserules.

You're right that infinite casting is 'cheese' SorO. I just really ... hate paperwork. And limitations. It's why my homebrew tends to have no per diem abilities; they're usually at will or have some payment method.

I hadn't considered that Versatile Spellcaster could be generic enough to open up the Warmage's 4th level knowledge.
Because officially it doesn't just like a VA doesn't work like you're trying to use it either.
The one (VS opening spell levels for spont casters) is not related to the other (spontaneous casting of spells from prepared slots qualifying as 'ability to spontaneously cast spells'). It's a fallacious argument. Whether or not VS can open 'ability to cast X level spells' is not material to spontaneous conversion satisfying the prerequisite for VS.

Quote
And if you're trying to fit within a normal game, aka no extra Feats, mindful that the concept of infinite Spells is super broken. Really, you might as well as actually use the super broken stuff to achieve it like a LA-Buyoff Drained/Retrained Lore Drake Steel Dragon or Dragonspawn Abomination. Of course, StP Erudite as mentioned in the other thread already has infinite 2nd level Spells/Disciplines & 3rd level Universals pretty much built-in as intended.

Uh huh. I might just as well play Pun Pun too...

This is not an über powerful character concept; it does get to nova all the time at 6th-10th, and it has to spend time doing so until 9th. The only thing it can do is cast lotsa spells; it cannot persist, or whatever else. After 11th-13th, it has the 'lower level' utility spells covered full-time, but has limited casting of top level spells, like other casters.
« Last Edit: August 14, 2016, 01:29:26 AM by Chemus »
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Offline linklord231

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Re: [3.5] 'Unlimited' Wizard, e6 'friendly.' Sorta.
« Reply #10 on: August 14, 2016, 03:34:16 AM »
A character can have "the ability to cast spells spontaneously" without being a "spontaneous spellcaster."  This is exactly what RC pg 139 is talking about:

Quote
OTHER SPONTANEOUS CASTING
Some spellcasters prepare spells, but they can cast certain spells spontaneously as detailed in their class description. A good-aligned cleric or a cleric of a good-aligned deity can spontaneously cast a cure spell in place of a prepared spell of the same level or higher, but not in place of a domain spell. A druid can spontaneously cast a summon nature’s ally spell in place of a prepared spell of the same level or higher. Such spontaneous casting follows special rules for spontaneous spellcasting, such as how metamagic feats interact with casting time, but otherwise functions as normal spellcasting. A multiclass spellcaster can’t cast a spontaneous spell from one class in place of one from another class.

A good aligned cleric can explicitly cast some spells spontaneously, and so would fulfill the requirements of Versatile Spellcaster.  The "ability to spontaneously cast spells" is not the same thing as "must be a spontaneous spellcaster."  However, VS would be useless for a cleric because clerics don't actually know any of their spells. 

asserting that "ability to spontaneously cast spells" can mean something but VA's access to the next Spell Level doesn't

I'm not sure what you mean by this.  Can you clarify?
I'm not arguing, I'm explaining why I'm right.

Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: [3.5] 'Unlimited' Wizard, e6 'friendly.' Sorta.
« Reply #11 on: August 14, 2016, 11:37:29 AM »
This is not an über powerful character concept ... The only thing it can do is cast lotsa spells;
Those two parts of your sentences are mutually exclusive. But anyway, have you tried looking into the Arcane Swordsage?

A character can have "the ability to cast spells spontaneously" without being a "spontaneous spellcaster."  This is exactly what RC pg 139 is talking about:
*Sigh*

(click to show/hide)
« Last Edit: August 14, 2016, 11:40:52 AM by SorO_Lost »

Offline linklord231

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Re: [3.5] 'Unlimited' Wizard, e6 'friendly.' Sorta.
« Reply #12 on: August 14, 2016, 03:37:57 PM »
Nobody is saying that a wizard or cleric or druid with the ability to cast certain spells spontaneously is a Spontaneous Spellcaster. But, Versatile Spellcaster isn't asking if you're a Spontaneous Spellcaster. It's asking if you can cast spells spontaneously. There's a huge difference.
I'm not arguing, I'm explaining why I'm right.

Offline Chemus

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Re: [3.5] 'Unlimited' Wizard, e6 'friendly.' Sorta.
« Reply #13 on: August 14, 2016, 04:15:18 PM »
Nobody is saying that a wizard or cleric or druid with the ability to cast certain spells spontaneously is a Spontaneous Spellcaster. But, Versatile Spellcaster isn't asking if you're a Spontaneous Spellcaster. It's asking if you can cast spells spontaneously. There's a huge difference.

I've changed my mind about that first part, Linklord. So now someone is.

This is not an über powerful character concept ... The only thing it can do is cast lotsa spells;
Those two parts of your sentences are mutually exclusive.
Action economy still exists; this is just a tier 1 Warlock. In e6, it's broken. In 20th play, it has a few, or many, extra 3rd level slots or [sanctum] 4th's prepped, and it can keep all its 6th level [sanctum] spells and below. 7th-9th spells are still limited to per diem slots with no recycling.

Quote
But anyway, have you tried looking into the Arcane Swordsage?
No, not really. I might, one day...

Quote
(click to show/hide)


(click to show/hide)
tl/dr The 'functions like normal spellcasting' clause refers to the Spellcasting section on pp132-136, regarding choosing, targeting, etc. That's normal spellcasting. If spontaneous casting has a special rule, though, then spontaneous [divination, SNA, cure/inflict, et. al.] follows the rules for spontaneous casting.

Additionally, 'those who normally perpare spells, but can spontaneously cast specific spells' are included in the ranks of spontaneous spellcasters on p125.

Nowhere does it say 'if you prepare spells, you are incapable of being a spontaneous spellcaster if you possess an ability to spontaneously cast spells', nor does it say the reverse.
« Last Edit: August 14, 2016, 04:16:49 PM by Chemus »
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Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: [3.5] 'Unlimited' Wizard, e6 'friendly.' Sorta.
« Reply #14 on: August 14, 2016, 11:19:13 PM »
Action economy still exists;
And so does Quicken Spell, Contingency, and Celerity. Also the "lessers" like Mass Snake's Swiftness and Haste which don't give a full-action so to speak but return more than a Standard Action's worth.  :)

Nuh uh. You're a doody head! (You can't actually make your position stronger by insulting or demeaning your opposition)
Let's face it, you and Link already made up your minds and don't give a Duckbunny anyway, like wise I've been there and said that for years and you people still twist word meanings worse than Asmodeus.

For example, I already just called out how you have to change the word "follow" to something else and this is what you go and rephrase the entire sentence to say, "other than special rules regarding spontaneous spellcasting, this spellcasting works like normal spellcasting". You probably choose page 125 for metamagic rules rather than page 139 because it comments that spontaneous casters don't prepare Metamagics. And even still you took the author(s) explicit inclusion of the Cleric's special rules not as a reminder to include a non-Spontaneous Class because the author figured you wouldn't have known to do that but that it's support for saying the Cleric equals Spontaneous Casting. And then finally it attempts to conclude with a fallacy of appeal, of course you can be a Wizard 1 / Sorcerer 1 and there is no rule text preventing that, but that has nothing to do with the points being discussed. Your post reeks of your attempts to reach out and grasp anything support which is the exact opposite of how you should test a theory.

But let's take a moment and go back to that dumb appeal of yours, recall when I said I could prove VA's requirements were not subjective? Of course not, you didn't read the owlbear post before replying.
Quote from: CM
Versatile Spellcaster (Races of the Dragon): Although only spontaneous spellcasters can utilize this feat, the ability to sacrifice two lower-level spell slots for one higher-level spell slot comes in handy more often than you might think.
Quote from: RC
Some characters can cast spells, but they don’t need spellbooks, nor do they prepare their spells. They can cast any spell they know using a daily allotment of spell slots. These characters are called spontaneous spellcasters.

And you're next play, assuming you even read any of this, is to claim VA's requirement entry trumps CM's expansion even through CM doesn't contradict RotD, just your very inccorect opinion of things. So again, the rules don't say VA cannot be used with spent slots, the thread is over.  :rolleyes

Offline linklord231

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Re: [3.5] 'Unlimited' Wizard, e6 'friendly.' Sorta.
« Reply #15 on: August 15, 2016, 02:32:47 AM »
Nobody is saying that a wizard or cleric or druid with the ability to cast certain spells spontaneously is a Spontaneous Spellcaster. But, Versatile Spellcaster isn't asking if you're a Spontaneous Spellcaster. It's asking if you can cast spells spontaneously. There's a huge difference.

I've changed my mind about that first part, Linklord. So now someone is.

Well you shouldn't, because you'd be wrong.  We have a definition for Spontaneous Spellcasters, on pg 139 of the Rules Compendium. 
Quote from:  RC 139
Some characters can cast spells, but they don’t need spellbooks, nor do they prepare their spells. They can cast any spell they know using a daily allotment of spell slots. These characters are called spontaneous spellcasters.

If your character prepares spells, he is by definition not a Spontaneous Spellcaster (even if he casts some spells spontaneously). 

SorO, are you seriously trying to argue that a commentary about the feat from a secondary source in the context of giving advice about feat selection is rules text, let alone rules text that trumps the description of the feat itself? 

In reality, the entire point can be summed up in two quotes.
Quote from:  RC 139
Some spellcasters prepare spells, but they can cast certain spells spontaneously

Quote from:  RotD 101
Verstile Spellcaster
Prerequisite: Ability to spontaneously cast spells.

Versatile Spellcaster requires that you be able to cast spells spontaneously.  Rules Compendium explicitly states that characters who can ditch a prepared spell to cast a certain other spell are "casting spontaneously."
Therefor, characters who can cast certain spells spontaneously qualify for Versatile Spellcaster.  QED.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2016, 02:34:25 AM by linklord231 »
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Offline Chemus

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Re: [3.5] 'Unlimited' Wizard, e6 'friendly.' Sorta.
« Reply #16 on: August 15, 2016, 03:32:39 AM »
Action economy still exists;
And so does Quicken Spell, Contingency, and Celerity. Also the "lessers" like Mass Snake's Swiftness and Haste which don't give a full-action so to speak but return more than a Standard Action's worth.  :)
Yes. They exist like they did before. This is true. This makes the wizard Tier 0, just like, say, the StP Erudite, but less flexible on spell source. It's kinda like adding on that Kobold feat+ritual from the webhancement that adds a sorcerer level to a kobold.

Quote
I already just called out how you have to change the word "follow" to something else and this is what you go and rephrase the entire sentence to say, "other than special rules regarding spontaneous spellcasting, this spellcasting works like normal spellcasting".
I quoted the rule (admittedly, I just noticed that I accidentally added the word 'the'), then showed you the interpretation of the 'normal casting' clause. It means that you have components, concentration, attacks of opportunity, etc.

Here: '...such spontaneous casting adheres to special rules regarding spontaneous spellcasting, [...], but otherwise functions as normal spellcasting.'

Quote
You probably choose page 125 for metamagic rules rather than page 139 because it comments that spontaneous casters don't prepare Metamagics. And even still you took the author(s) explicit inclusion of the Cleric's special rules not as a reminder to include a non-Spontaneous Class because the author figured you wouldn't have known to do that but that it's support for saying the Cleric equals Spontaneous Casting.
RC 139 already said that spontaneous conversion is 'other spontaneous casting'. RC 125 includes spontaneous conversion users in with spontaneous spellcasters, and that's why I used it.

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And then finally it attempts to conclude with a fallacy of appeal, of course you can be a Wizard 1 / Sorcerer 1 and there is no rule text preventing that, but that has nothing to do with the points being discussed. Your post reeks of your attempts to reach out and grasp anything support which is the exact opposite of how you should test a theory.

But let's take a moment and go back to that dumb appeal of yours, recall when I said I could prove VA's requirements were not subjective? Of course not, you didn't read the owlbear post before replying.
Quote from: CM
Versatile Spellcaster (Races of the Dragon): Although only spontaneous spellcasters can utilize this feat, the ability to sacrifice two lower-level spell slots for one higher-level spell slot comes in handy more often than you might think.
Quote from: RC
Some characters can cast spells, but they don’t need spellbooks, nor do they prepare their spells. They can cast any spell they know using a daily allotment of spell slots. These characters are called spontaneous spellcasters.
The wizard prepares spells. The wizard is a prepared caster. The wizard, through a feat or ACF, is able to spontaneously cast spells. The wizard is a spontaneous caster. Since the wizard fulfills both definitions, and there's nothing invalidating the definitions, he's both. That was, and is, my 'appeal.'

The precis description on p24 of Complete Mage (do I smell... herring?) of what a feat in Races of the Dragon does, and who can use it, especially in regards to character building? Wow, heavy stuff. It might go to intent (one of the 4 designers of CM, as well as the editing manager worked on both books). But maybe they just didn't care to explain who is a spontaneous caster, and that you can become a spontaneous caster. Or they didn't think of it, or even know. CC (spont div) came out in May 2007, RoD in January 2006, and CM in October 2006, and RC in October 2007. FRCS came out in, what... 2001, with the PGTF updating it in 2004. These interactions are unusual, why would they be referred to?

"Some characters can cast spells, but they don’t need spellbooks, nor do they prepare their spells..." (this describes Spontaneous diviners, healers, inflicters, summoners, Signature spellers...). They can cast any spell they know (the converters have a special known list, of which they can cast any) using a daily allotment of spell slots (which slots the converters have filled with prepared spells that they kick out). These characters are called spontaneous spellcasters."

Yes. Yes they are.

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And you're next play, assuming you even read any of this, is to claim VA's requirement entry trumps CM's expansion even through CM doesn't contradict RotD, just your very inccorect opinion of things. So again, the rules don't say VA cannot be used with spent slots, the thread is over.  :rolleyes

Ha ha yeah, I totally didn't say anything close to that!

Plus, (more fish here!) the rules say (RC 137) "Once you cast a prepared spell, you can’t cast it again until you prepare it again. If you have prepared multiple copies of a single spell, you can cast each copy once. If you cast spells spontaneously, casting a spell counts against your daily limit of spell slots of that spell level, but you can cast the same spell again if you haven’t reached your limit." And RC 139 "Any spells cast within the last 8 hours count against a spontaneous spellcaster’s daily limit of spell slots." If you have no slots left, you can't use VS.



Nobody is saying that a wizard or cleric or druid with the ability to cast certain spells spontaneously is a Spontaneous Spellcaster. But, Versatile Spellcaster isn't asking if you're a Spontaneous Spellcaster. It's asking if you can cast spells spontaneously. There's a huge difference.

I've changed my mind about that first part, Linklord. So now someone is.

Well you shouldn't, because you'd be wrong.  We have a definition for Spontaneous Spellcasters, on pg 139 of the Rules Compendium. 
Quote from:  RC 139
Some characters can cast spells, but they don’t need spellbooks, nor do they prepare their spells. They can cast any spell they know using a daily allotment of spell slots. These characters are called spontaneous spellcasters.

If your character prepares spells, he is by definition not a Spontaneous Spellcaster (even if he casts some spells spontaneously).

That supposition would then mean that a sorcerer with Arcane Preparation (CArc 73) is not now nor ever will again be a spontaneous caster.

I'm not in agreeance with that.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2016, 03:48:53 AM by Chemus »
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Offline linklord231

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Re: [3.5] 'Unlimited' Wizard, e6 'friendly.' Sorta.
« Reply #17 on: August 15, 2016, 05:17:13 AM »
If your character prepares spells, he is by definition not a Spontaneous Spellcaster (even if he casts some spells spontaneously).

That supposition would then mean that a sorcerer with Arcane Preparation (CArc 73) is not now nor ever will again be a spontaneous caster.

I'm not in agreeance with that.

Two questions: 

First, is there an alternative definition for Spontaneous Spellcaster that is better supported by the rules?  I'm more than willing to use that definition if there is.

And second, would ruling that Sorcerers with Arcane Preparation are prepared spellcasters actually break anything, if you treat "Spontaneous Spellcaster" as something different from (though related to) "character that casts spells spontaneously"? 
I'm not arguing, I'm explaining why I'm right.

Offline Chemus

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Re: [3.5] 'Unlimited' Wizard, e6 'friendly.' Sorta.
« Reply #18 on: August 15, 2016, 10:11:39 AM »
By using the preamble for the rules as a 'definition', you can also say that Spontaneous casters aren't Arcane spellcasters:
RC 128, Arcane Preparation section: "Arcane spellcasters, also known as arcanists, prepare spells in a particular way, following specific rules. A character’s level in an arcane spellcasting class limits the number of spells that character can prepare and cast. Arcane spellcasters can prepare the same spell more than once, but each such preparation counts as one spell toward the daily limit."

Sorcerers and bards aren't arcane casters by this 'definition'.

However, exactly like the Spontaneous Spellcasting section on p139, the Arcane Prep. section goes on to lay out in detail exactly what it just summarized in the preamble. It shows how arcane casters prepare spells when they prepare spells.

The Spont. section goes on the exact same way; preamble, then details.

Why torture the rules? If someone casts spontaneous spells, and is even called a spontaneous spellcaster in passing by a particular rules segment, they're a spontaneous spellcaster.
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Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: [3.5] 'Unlimited' Wizard, e6 'friendly.' Sorta.
« Reply #19 on: August 15, 2016, 12:31:49 PM »
The precis description on p24 of Complete Mage (do I smell... herring?)
So most of your post is a wad of BS but I made it that far before I lost all hope.

A red herring is a distraction, not all unlike how page 139 having three nos to you but you rephrase one of them to mean yes and ignore the other too is a distraction for me from thinking of you, well, that's mostly borderline ad hominem. CM is simply expands the meaning of what's being discussed and it's more direct than say bringing up a Greater Barghest casting CL9 Crushing Despair, a 4th level Spell, cannot meet the requirements of having a caster level of five or higher.

And second, would ruling that Sorcerers with Arcane Preparation are prepared spellcasters actually break anything,
Yes, Arcane Preparation's requirement is "Ability to cast arcane spells without preparation,". If it actually granted the Preparation the prerequisite cared about the Feat would null it's self and always be in an unobtainable state.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2016, 12:47:37 PM by SorO_Lost »