Author Topic: [PoC] Power of Cybernetics General Discussion Thread  (Read 56608 times)

Offline Garryl

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Re: [PoC] Power of Cybernetics General Discussion Thread
« Reply #240 on: July 09, 2017, 02:03:35 AM »
I'll let you know how it goes. I'm leaning towards adding Precise Shot to autoturrets, though.

Speaking of turrets, I'm statting up a big bertha. It's an enormous, colossal, magnificent tower of guns. It gets 25 ranged attacks per round at an average of a little over 45 damage apiece, for an average of over 1100 damage/round if everything connects, discounting crits (19-20/x3 and another +16 damage pre-multiplier). Its damage can apply in an area. It deals a combinations of piercing, acid, cold, electricity, fire, and sonic damage. Its attacks can hit incorporeal and ethereal targets. Its maximum range is 2400 feet. It is a thing of destructive beauty. And, like the tarrasque and many other puzzle bosses, it has weaknesses so glaring that I expect a properly motivated mid-level party could give it a run for its money.

Offline Nanshork

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Re: [PoC] Power of Cybernetics General Discussion Thread
« Reply #241 on: July 09, 2017, 11:56:18 AM »
I can make one with a module right?   :smirk

Offline Garryl

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Re: [PoC] Power of Cybernetics General Discussion Thread
« Reply #242 on: July 09, 2017, 09:20:24 PM »
Okay, I think I'm done with this batch of changes. I'll probably start uploading it all tonight or tomorrow.

The turrets with ranged weapons are all getting Precise Shot, except for the new guardian turret, because its ability to make ranged attacks is really a secondary thing.


Offline Garryl

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Re: [PoC] Power of Cybernetics General Discussion Thread
« Reply #244 on: July 10, 2017, 12:11:19 AM »
And updating is done.

Coincidentally, just as I got to the Metroid stuff, this popped up on my playlist.

Offline Nanshork

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Re: [PoC] Power of Cybernetics General Discussion Thread
« Reply #245 on: July 10, 2017, 12:59:00 AM »
Haha, nice!


Does Power Armor Mastery apply to the Power Suit module?

Hardlight weapons are pretty cool, and unlimited ammo means no tracking ammo which is good.

The new grafts look good.

Thank you for precise shot on the turrets, it makes a big difference.

Big Bertha...*drools*


Controlling turrets and the rezbit, is that a free action post deployment?

Offline Garryl

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Re: [PoC] Power of Cybernetics General Discussion Thread
« Reply #246 on: July 10, 2017, 01:19:01 AM »
Does Power Armor Mastery apply to the Power Suit module?

Yes. Power Suit creates a suit of armor that counts as an energy receptacle (since it shares energy allocation), so Power Armor Mastery applies to the armor. The energy capacity increase also does (or at least should) apply back to the Power Suit module, since the armor and the module share energy allocation which means (or at least should mean) that they act like a single energy receptacle.

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Controlling turrets and the rezbit, is that a free action post deployment?

Yes. Communicating wirelessly, like talking and telepathy, is a free action.

Offline Garryl

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Re: [PoC] Power of Cybernetics General Discussion Thread
« Reply #247 on: August 12, 2017, 12:11:31 AM »
I had an idea for a new base class (and at least one associated module) that uses magic as well as cybernetics. Names are pending.

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« Last Edit: August 12, 2017, 02:09:20 AM by Garryl »


Offline Versatility_Nut

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Re: [PoC] Power of Cybernetics General Discussion Thread
« Reply #249 on: August 14, 2017, 05:37:00 PM »
Regarding Arcanotechnitian, the setup is a bit too complicated and arbitrary. Listing the spell slots is unneeded if there are never any real slots present, so the entire spell slot setup can be replaced with a single column stating maximum spell level. However, spell slots are very different in power, so having one Energy be one spell slot for all spell levels means people will always max out slots of their highest level, with the cap being very much too high for normal play given the power of the Wiz/Sorc list.

I'd change that casting mechanic to Energy=CL. Essentially, you have 1 power invested be one level of spellcasting. A Bard type caster actually gets a spell level every three levels. Capping at 6th level slots is an arbitrary restriction on them. They really cap at 15th level casting, sans the 7th level spell slots. So a Bard-type slot progression would mean 15 Energy if Energy=CL. Having actual CL for spells cast be determined by Energy invested also means that you have room for a Module that just boosts CL by Energy invested while messing with spell effect caps.

As for doing Archivists with it, that's just a single AFC away to make the class Divine instead of Arcane. Possibly with a few Modules to make it work out better exclusive to the AFC. Or roll it into subclasses and have the modules use keywords for casting types, which enables AFCs for any power source one feels like with just slapping another keyword on the Module list. You'd need a blanket keyword to cover all such modules, though.

Offline Nanshork

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Re: [PoC] Power of Cybernetics General Discussion Thread
« Reply #250 on: August 14, 2017, 08:04:48 PM »
Regarding Arcanotechnitian, the setup is a bit too complicated and arbitrary. Listing the spell slots is unneeded if there are never any real slots present, so the entire spell slot setup can be replaced with a single column stating maximum spell level. However, spell slots are very different in power, so having one Energy be one spell slot for all spell levels means people will always max out slots of their highest level, with the cap being very much too high for normal play given the power of the Wiz/Sorc list.

Real slots are present when bonus slots from ability scores are a go.  In addition, Garryl already listed restrictions on spell slot energy investment so people can't max out slots of the highest level without maxing out all lower levels as well.  In addition, the standard energy cap is 4 for a level 20 character so I don't understand your issue.

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I'd change that casting mechanic to Energy=CL. Essentially, you have 1 power invested be one level of spellcasting. A Bard type caster actually gets a spell level every three levels. Capping at 6th level slots is an arbitrary restriction on them. They really cap at 15th level casting, sans the 7th level spell slots. So a Bard-type slot progression would mean 15 Energy if Energy=CL. Having actual CL for spells cast be determined by Energy invested also means that you have room for a Module that just boosts CL by Energy invested while messing with spell effect caps.

Since the standard energy cap is 4 at level 20 that's not going to work.

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As for doing Archivists with it, that's just a single AFC away to make the class Divine instead of Arcane. Possibly with a few Modules to make it work out better exclusive to the AFC. Or roll it into subclasses and have the modules use keywords for casting types, which enables AFCs for any power source one feels like with just slapping another keyword on the Module list. You'd need a blanket keyword to cover all such modules, though.

I agree, an ACF with a divine version module would work for this.  The rest would depend on how many extra modules the class will entail.

Offline Garryl

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Re: [PoC] Power of Cybernetics General Discussion Thread
« Reply #251 on: August 14, 2017, 10:04:17 PM »
Another related idea: Psiberneticist (name is a joke). Similar to arcanotechnician concept but with psionics instead of magic. No spell slots or energy allocation. Just expends energy directly to create power points.

Additional module effect ideas for interacting with spellcasting:
- Module maintains concentration on a single spell for you, up to a level equal to the energy allocation.
- Bonus to your spells' DCs to resist being dispelled and to be identified with Spellcraft.
- Gain temporary energy equal to a spell's level when you dismiss it. Lasts for 1 minute or until the spell would have expired normally. Multiple spells do not stack.

Also, a feat that I expect to be at least as broken as DMM: Expend energy to apply a metamagic feat without adjusting the spell slot level used.

Regarding Arcanotechnitian, the setup is a bit too complicated and arbitrary. Listing the spell slots is unneeded if there are never any real slots present, so the entire spell slot setup can be replaced with a single column stating maximum spell level. However, spell slots are very different in power, so having one Energy be one spell slot for all spell levels means people will always max out slots of their highest level, with the cap being very much too high for normal play given the power of the Wiz/Sorc list.

Well, two columns, one for cantrip slots and one for max spell level, but I see what you mean.

Regarding maximizing the highest level slots, that's what what limiting the higher level slots's capacities to the amount spent on lower level slots was intended for. For example, to get a third 5th-level slot would require expending at least 15 energy, 3 for each level from 1st through 5th.

Also, note to self, the exact wording is far from final. The way I described it above (energy capacity = min(normal, min(all lower level allocations))) means that bonuses to energy capacity (such as from Systemic Reboot System) could partially bypass that limit and let you get more higher-level slots than lower-level slots from energy allocation.

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I'd change that casting mechanic to Energy=CL. Essentially, you have 1 power invested be one level of spellcasting. A Bard type caster actually gets a spell level every three levels. Capping at 6th level slots is an arbitrary restriction on them. They really cap at 15th level casting, sans the 7th level spell slots. So a Bard-type slot progression would mean 15 Energy if Energy=CL. Having actual CL for spells cast be determined by Energy invested also means that you have room for a Module that just boosts CL by Energy invested while messing with spell effect caps.

I hadn't considered scaling it directly based on the standard spellcasting table. It would probably work out better in some ways, since the scaling of energy capacity means that in this first draft, your upper limit on spell slots is the same for all spell levels and scales oddly for a spellcaster. At low character level, you get very few spell slots, even of your low-level spells. At higher character levels, whenever you gain a new spell level, you get the full potential complement of spell slots for it. And if you multiclass out, your maximum spell slots keep rising despite the fact that you're no longer progressing your spellcasting class. Something to think about.

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As for doing Archivists with it, that's just a single AFC away to make the class Divine instead of Arcane. Possibly with a few Modules to make it work out better exclusive to the AFC. Or roll it into subclasses and have the modules use keywords for casting types, which enables AFCs for any power source one feels like with just slapping another keyword on the Module list. You'd need a blanket keyword to cover all such modules, though.

I would definitely like to have at least a divine spellcasting ACF for this class if I were to actually make it. PoC classes are already extremely versatile thanks to the wide variety of modules they have access to, which is part of why I've had so much trouble making ACFs and variants for them. It's nice to finally have a concept that lends itself to that.

By the way, Versatility_Nut, it's ACF (Alternative Class Feature), not AFC.

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I'd change that casting mechanic to Energy=CL. Essentially, you have 1 power invested be one level of spellcasting. A Bard type caster actually gets a spell level every three levels. Capping at 6th level slots is an arbitrary restriction on them. They really cap at 15th level casting, sans the 7th level spell slots. So a Bard-type slot progression would mean 15 Energy if Energy=CL. Having actual CL for spells cast be determined by Energy invested also means that you have room for a Module that just boosts CL by Energy invested while messing with spell effect caps.

Since the standard energy cap is 4 at level 20 that's not going to work.

It wouldn't be the first time there's been an energy receptacle with a nonstandard capacity. For example, the nanotheurge has a class feature with a capacity of roughly 1/2 the class level.

Offline Garryl

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Re: [PoC] Power of Cybernetics General Discussion Thread
« Reply #252 on: August 24, 2017, 01:58:29 PM »
Note to self: One of these days, I need to review the energy warrior's module list. It was always thinner and more disjointed than the others and I don't think I ever corrected that. On top of that, non-damage options are more limited even with the same module count because so many of the energy warrior modules are beam modules, which have one of their socket attachments devoted to variations on the same thing (enhancing energy beam attacks).

Offline YuweaCurtis

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Re: [PoC] Power of Cybernetics General Discussion Thread
« Reply #253 on: August 25, 2017, 08:07:50 AM »
So, if I'm reading right the Energy Warrior can emit enough weapons to fill his hands, but they have to be the same one?

Offline Garryl

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Re: [PoC] Power of Cybernetics General Discussion Thread
« Reply #254 on: August 25, 2017, 06:27:07 PM »
So, if I'm reading right the Energy Warrior can emit enough weapons to fill his hands, but they have to be the same one?

That is correct. You could, for example, have two morningstars, or a pair of shortswords, but not a longsword and a shortsword together.

Offline Versatility_Nut

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Re: [PoC] Power of Cybernetics General Discussion Thread
« Reply #255 on: August 26, 2017, 10:26:02 AM »
Note to self: One of these days, I need to review the energy warrior's module list. It was always thinner and more disjointed than the others and I don't think I ever corrected that. On top of that, non-damage options are more limited even with the same module count because so many of the energy warrior modules are beam modules, which have one of their socket attachments devoted to variations on the same thing (enhancing energy beam attacks).

Taking a quick look, I see Energy Warrior needing some refluffing, and possibly some mechanical adjustments, to make sense. Energy Beam's fluff, being a beam, is rather nonsensical for having it treated as a melee weapon, and kinda constricts sane design space by having an implication that it's always going to be damage, no matter what. What about people who want to be a pile of tanking with Energy Warrior? There should be an armor or shield option at lower levels, for that desire. There's actually no option at all for just using it as a beam, so the name is nonsense.

As for suggestions on expanding the Energy Warrior list, I'd move Energy Claws and Energy Fangs to Module space. Rather than one Module for each natural attack type, I'd have it kinda be groupings. For example, Sting and Tail on one Module, Bite and Gore on another and Claw and Slam on a third, with each option having different effects and each Module having different Sockets/effects for Sockets to make them really matter as separate things.

Another thing would be more Combo Modules. There's only four of them currently, but there can be a lot more of them. Energy Beam auxiliary effects, like above, and Missile Launcher alterations are both good space to stick Combo Modules on. One of these that's seemingly, but not really, covered by an existing module is having Energy Beam boosters apply to Missiles. The reason it's not really covered is because Ice Spreader sticks this effect on the Energy Emitter socket, where literally all of the existing Energy Beam enhancements are, so it really just means feats and features apply. Unless you grab the feat that gives a duplicate socket to have two Energy Emitter sockets active at once, which needs errata for how it deals with the existing multiple Energy Emitter sockets of Energy Warrior and the move action swap of active socketing.

A different Energy Emitter combo would, naturally, be something that enhances Energy Beam that doesn't occupy the Energy Emitter socket. Something like getting 1d6 damage on some particular condition, like having a Target Lock, or be Fighting Defensively. If the latter is the case, a Shielding module effect could be having Energy Beam damage apply to all attackers who land a hit while a low-Absorption Energy Shield with relatively high Recharge, like being 4-8 Absorption per Energy with 2-4 Recharge per Energy. This would give an alternative to Energy Tank for that ablative, regenerating HP.

A general issue with this subsystem is effect overlap. It's downright excessive. There's just flat out too much finite requirement on what's being done with particular sockets. The Visor socket gets practically all the tracking and visibility functions, while the shielding socket gets virtually all the useful defensive abilities that aren't on non-socket effects. You have immunity to fire in the shielding slot, which is nothing compared to getting 80 extra HP, with 20 of that coming back at 4 HP per round as the Shielding socket effect. Energy Tank just massively overwhelms so many of the other effects in it's slots, specifically because of that specification of what sockets do. 1d6 damage per Energy for every attack this round? With Duel Weapon making replacement of the TWF chain cost one feat(duplicate slots make things nasty, okay?) and four energy, this becomes completely trivial to get massive damage out of

Or you can attach Missile Launcher to the Arm socket and trivially get +4d6 damage on five separate Touch Attacks that have 5 ft. splash. Each one already dealing 2d6 damage. While also getting the option to use Ice Spreader and the socket duplicating feat to add another 4d6 to each attack, with a 30 ft. cone radius coming off the already 5 ft. splash, while also having a 50% miss chance for attackers. This comes from Shadow Beam. Even if the bonus damage is halved, it's still crazy. And, of course, the extra Energy Emitter slot can instead be used for a different Energy Beam module, which means another 4d6 damage for Energy Beam attacks.

Swap Energy Tank to Shielding, freeing Hands for Duel Weapon to get GTWF and full Strength to damage and reduced attack penalties, swap Missile Launcher for teleporting full-attack Spring Attack off of Assassin Teleportation and swap Ice Spreader for Warp Beam to enable Assassin Teleportation and get a +4 bonus to Attack rolls and 4d4 damage and you've got a nightmare of an attack spam setup with a rather large amount of damage soak before we even get into anything else.

Offline Nanshork

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Re: [PoC] Power of Cybernetics General Discussion Thread
« Reply #256 on: June 11, 2020, 11:41:28 PM »
Let me know when you're ready for me to look over the Gladiator.

Offline YuweaCurtis

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Re: [PoC] Power of Cybernetics General Discussion Thread
« Reply #257 on: June 12, 2020, 10:28:12 AM »
Something new? That's a pleasant surprise! I'll read it later, working on character right now.

Since I'm here I got a probably dumb question. How many modules can fit on a section of the body, none socketed? And how do you determine the location of some (like Missile Launcher).

Offline Garryl

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Re: [PoC] Power of Cybernetics General Discussion Thread
« Reply #258 on: June 12, 2020, 11:04:57 AM »
Something new? That's a pleasant surprise! I'll read it later, working on character right now.

Since I'm here I got a probably dumb question. How many modules can fit on a section of the body, none socketed? And how do you determine the location of some (like Missile Launcher).

Infinity! Or not applicable. Modules aren't like soulmelds and don't interfere with each other based on socket associations nor take up space on the body, even when attached to a socket.

The body slot/socket associations are mostly for fluff. Only a few abilities, like the Pocket Industry feat chain, actually make use of them. I had some vague plans for more such effects, like cybernetic items with bonus effects if attached to their slot's socket and/or boosts to modules attached to their body slot's socket, or abilities that gave synergistic bonuses to modules and soulmelds attached/bound to equivalent slot sockets/chakras. I never got around to them in PoC, though its predecessor MaI has a little bit in its activating/meldshaping PrC, and the system doesn't feel desperately lacking for their absence.

Offline YuweaCurtis

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Re: [PoC] Power of Cybernetics General Discussion Thread
« Reply #259 on: June 12, 2020, 02:43:26 PM »
Yea here I was only taking one visor because or an imagined limit. If I had the two types of Visors could I maintain two different locks?