Author Topic: [3.5/PF] The War-Frenzy [Base Class]  (Read 42010 times)

Offline Agita

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Re: [3.5/PF] The War-Frenzy [Base Class]
« Reply #20 on: June 15, 2012, 01:48:51 PM »
Indeed. I forgot to look up how the Dungeoncrasher ACF words it. Thoughts on the amount of damage?
Seems fine to me. It's an unlikely corner case, but you might want to specify that the distance flung is based on the damage from the first attack on the off chance someone manages to get pounce. (Though at that point flinging an enemy into low orbit is probably a little easier to swallow.) Or just have it trigger on the first attack so it's a moot point? Either or.
Well, if you do get pounce (still very much possible, if not as trivial since the class assumes the Barbarian and therefore the Lion Totem dip is out, and kind of unnecessary considering that lovely gore attack you get), then it would trigger per attack and resolve before subsequent attacks are rolled. Unless you have absurd reach, I find it unlikely that any attacks you make after flinging the opponent will connect. :p

Correct again. I should add a "cumulative" in there to clarify that. But yes, if a party of Pack Hunters wants you dead, you're going to get fucked up.
Yeah, that one can be pretty nasty with focus fire. I'm wondering how Cat's Eye stacks up against the others, actually, although admittedly I haven't sat down and done the math to see how that lovely Power Attack buff would up your expected damage output. It's probably fine.
I might add that at higher levels, AC of monsters becomes more and more dependent on natural armor, so there's that. But yeah, we aren't sure either.

One other thing I caught: Unseen Watcher references Hide in Plain Sight, but there are multiple versions of that ability floating around. Assassin/shadowdancer, for instance, have theirs keyed to the presence of some shadow, while rangers have it in natural terrain.

I might even just say "can hide even while being observed, regardless of whether or not you have cover or concealment." By that point it's not unreasonable for you to hide in the salt flats.
The intent was for the "in any terrain and lighting short of a wide open plain in broad daylight" to override the stipulations other iterations of the ability have, but I guess I can see how it may be misleading.  Given that it is a (Su) ability as it is and you're also level 15, I suppose that version would just be cleaner.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2012, 01:50:59 PM by Agita »
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Offline veekie

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Re: [3.5/PF] The War-Frenzy [Base Class]
« Reply #21 on: June 15, 2012, 01:57:32 PM »
Correct again. I should add a "cumulative" in there to clarify that. But yes, if a party of Pack Hunters wants you dead, you're going to get fucked up.
Yeah, that one can be pretty nasty with focus fire. I'm wondering how Cat's Eye stacks up against the others, actually, although admittedly I haven't sat down and done the math to see how that lovely Power Attack buff would up your expected damage output. It's probably fine.
I might add that at higher levels, AC of monsters becomes more and more dependent on natural armor, so there's that. But yeah, we aren't sure either.
In part it was because of that. Cat's Eye is a spring attacking, ambushing, melee TWF'er, which does mean that whatever gains its making, its struggling from its flawed basis.
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Offline Bozwevial

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Re: [3.5/PF] The War-Frenzy [Base Class]
« Reply #22 on: June 15, 2012, 04:20:26 PM »
It also doesn't get any natural weapons from either totem or madness, so those have to come from somewhere else to make full use of those abilities if you want to do more than TWF.
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Offline Garryl

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Re: [3.5/PF] The War-Frenzy [Base Class]
« Reply #23 on: June 15, 2012, 04:24:22 PM »
Added the following clause to Madness:
Quote
While in a surge, the character cannot voluntarily end her trance.

I'd have just made the penalty be triggered whenever your trance ends after surging, or as soon as the surge ends, instead of if it ends because of a surge. Same intent, but it still lets you turn off your trance early if needed, and doesn't let you skirt around it with Calm Emotions or whatever.

Offline Agita

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Re: [3.5/PF] The War-Frenzy [Base Class]
« Reply #24 on: June 15, 2012, 04:28:51 PM »
It also doesn't get any natural weapons from either totem or madness, so those have to come from somewhere else to make full use of those abilities if you want to do more than TWF.
Correct. The natural weapons clause is mainly there to cover bases, as natural weapons aren't too hard to get (race, spells, feats) and the style really should work with them.

Added the following clause to Madness:
Quote
While in a surge, the character cannot voluntarily end her trance.

I'd have just made the penalty be triggered whenever your trance ends after surging, or as soon as the surge ends, instead of if it ends because of a surge. Same intent, but it still lets you turn off your trance early if needed, and doesn't let you skirt around it with Calm Emotions or whatever.

That would work as well.
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Offline Agita

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Re: [3.5/PF] The War-Frenzy [Base Class]
« Reply #25 on: June 17, 2012, 08:15:55 AM »
So it turns out I misread Garryl's comment on Pouncing Rush. Thinking it's fine as is now.
Any more comments on Garden of Celestial Bliss? The wording is clear to me, but then I wrote it. That said, following on the comment about basing it on your movement modes instead, we might instead just change it to this, which should abolish the problem:
Quote
Garden of Celestial Bliss (Su): Starting at level 17, whenever you hit a creature with an attack while in a surge, you may force that creature to move using a mode of movement you possess, up to your speed in that mode of movement, even if the target has a slower speed or does not possess that movement mode at all.
This forced movement provokes attacks of opportunity as normal. If the victim succeeds on a Reflex save (DC 10 + 1/2 your class level + your Cha modifier), she is merely forced to take a five-foot step in a direction you designate (even if she already moved on her turn).

Additionally, changed the following on Boz's feedback:
Changed Unseen Watcher to read as follows:
Quote
At 15th level, your Blindsense ability improves to Blindsight with the same range, and you may hide even while observed, regardless of whether or not you have cover or concealment. This ability counts as Hide in Plain Sight for purposes of meeting prerequisites and interacting with other abilities or effects.


Still considering the surge clause and what to do with immunity to conditions applied by surging.
Any comments on the totems that haven't been touched on so far?
« Last Edit: June 17, 2012, 08:20:09 AM by Agita »
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Offline Prime32

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Re: [3.5/PF] The War-Frenzy [Base Class]
« Reply #26 on: June 18, 2012, 09:53:47 AM »
Any comments on the totems that haven't been touched on so far?
On Land Titan, if there was a feat(s) or other ability which upgraded Body as Mountain to an actual size increase, then it could be useful for statting monsters.

Tectonic Thews can be used to dump rocks on peoples' heads, right? But there's no guideline on damage; maybe Rock Throwing should be folded in. (or again, have an upgrade feat)

Offline Agita

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Re: [3.5/PF] The War-Frenzy [Base Class]
« Reply #27 on: June 18, 2012, 09:56:48 AM »
Any comments on the totems that haven't been touched on so far?
On Land Titan, if there was a feat(s) or other ability which upgraded Body as Mountain to an actual size increase, then it could be useful for statting monsters.
It's a possibility, but the reach increase would be huge.

Tectonic Thews can be used to dump rocks on peoples' heads, right? But there's no guideline on damage; maybe Rock Throwing should be folded in. (or again, have an upgrade feat)
There's rules for damage from falling objects, for what it's worth.
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Offline veekie

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Re: [3.5/PF] The War-Frenzy [Base Class]
« Reply #28 on: June 18, 2012, 10:05:22 AM »
Any comments on the totems that haven't been touched on so far?
On Land Titan, if there was a feat(s) or other ability which upgraded Body as Mountain to an actual size increase, then it could be useful for statting monsters.
It's a possibility, but the reach increase would be huge.
More than that, it would be inconvenient for adventuring to have actual size increases.
Quote
Tectonic Thews can be used to dump rocks on peoples' heads, right? But there's no guideline on damage; maybe Rock Throwing should be folded in. (or again, have an upgrade feat)
There's rules for damage from falling objects, for what it's worth.
Given rules for falling objects, the limited distance you can move the material(remember the starting point must be in reach and the ending point must be adjacent), and the extant reflex save for hazards imposed by the moved material, I think we're covered. You'd hit way harder by directly attacking.
Everything is edible. Just that there are things only edible once per lifetime.
It's a god-eat-god world.

Procrastination is the thief of time; Year after year it steals, till all are fled,
And to the mercies of a moment leaves; The vast concerns of an eternal scene.

Offline Prime32

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Re: [3.5/PF] The War-Frenzy [Base Class]
« Reply #29 on: June 18, 2012, 04:22:25 PM »
Any comments on the totems that haven't been touched on so far?
On Land Titan, if there was a feat(s) or other ability which upgraded Body as Mountain to an actual size increase, then it could be useful for statting monsters.
It's a possibility, but the reach increase would be huge.
More than that, it would be inconvenient for adventuring to have actual size increases.
As I said, this would be mainly for monsters. The "stat monsters as NPCs" approach is easier if you have a way to increase their size.

Offline Agita

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Re: [3.5/PF] The War-Frenzy [Base Class]
« Reply #30 on: June 18, 2012, 06:27:04 PM »
Any comments on the totems that haven't been touched on so far?
On Land Titan, if there was a feat(s) or other ability which upgraded Body as Mountain to an actual size increase, then it could be useful for statting monsters.
It's a possibility, but the reach increase would be huge.
More than that, it would be inconvenient for adventuring to have actual size increases.
As I said, this would be mainly for monsters. The "stat monsters as NPCs" approach is easier if you have a way to increase their size.
That's nice, but not the intent of the project nor within its scope. There isn't really any such thing as "for monsters only" in D&D unless you make a feat with a requirement like "Must be a non-player character", either.

As for the open issues, I propose the following:
On Garden of Celestial Bliss, I'll change the ability to:
Quote
Garden of Celestial Bliss (Su): Starting at level 17, whenever you hit a creature with an attack while in a surge, you may force that creature to move using a mode of movement you possess along a route you designate, up to your speed in that mode of movement, even if the target has a slower speed or does not possess that movement mode at all.
This forced movement provokes attacks of opportunity as normal. If the victim succeeds on a Reflex save (DC 10 + 1/2 your class level + your Cha modifier), she is merely forced to take a five-foot step in a direction you designate (even if she already moved on her turn).
This should hopefully be clearer on all ends and work as intended.
On ending a trance, we adopt Garryl's proposal of cutting out the voluntary exit and changing the wording so that you always take the condition on ending the trance after a surge, regardless of why it ended.
On the conditions that a surge causes, we just make them pierce immunities. That seems to be the cleanest approach to me. After all, you are deliberately inflicting these on yourself.

After these three are taken care of, I think we can move on to posting the next Madness (Fear, since only Boz has chimed in), unless there are any more comments.
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Offline Agita

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Re: [3.5/PF] The War-Frenzy [Base Class]
« Reply #31 on: June 20, 2012, 08:41:55 AM »
Since there were no comments on this, I'll go ahead and implement the changes, then get ready to post the next Madness.

Changed the Garden of Celestial Bliss ability to read as follows:
Quote
Garden of Celestial Bliss (Su): Starting at level 17, whenever you hit a creature with an attack while in a surge, you may force that creature to move using a mode of movement you possess along a route you designate, up to your speed in that mode of movement, even if the target has a slower speed or does not possess that movement mode at all.
This forced movement provokes attacks of opportunity as normal. If the victim succeeds on a Reflex save (DC 10 + 1/2 your class level + your Cha modifier), she is merely forced to take a five-foot step in a direction you designate (even if she already moved on her turn).

Under Madness, replaced the section
Quote
While in a surge, the character cannot voluntarily end her trance. At the start of her next turn after entering a surge, the trance ends and she suffers additional drawbacks (typically in the form of conditions), the effects of which are detailed in the individual Madness entries.
with
Quote
At the start of her next turn after entering a surge, the trance ends, and she suffers additional drawbacks (typically in the form of conditions), the effects of which are detailed in the individual Madness entries. These apply regardless of whether the trance ended normally at the start of the character's turn or was ended prematurely, voluntarily or involuntarily. Conditions acquired this way are self-inflicted and cannot be prevented by any means, not even immunity, though they can be cured as normal.
And adjusted the wording of the individual Madness entries accordingly.
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Offline Agita

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Re: [3.5/PF] The War-Frenzy [Base Class]
« Reply #32 on: June 20, 2012, 08:49:11 AM »
Madness of Fear
(click to show/hide)

Now, the four Beast Totems that are currently closest to "ready" to post are called Earth Fury, Little Trickster, Singing Breeze, and Winged Death. Which two of these would you like to see next, based just on the name?
« Last Edit: June 20, 2012, 09:12:31 AM by Agita »
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Offline Bozwevial

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Re: [3.5/PF] The War-Frenzy [Base Class]
« Reply #33 on: June 20, 2012, 12:56:23 PM »
Looks very nice indeed.

Pandemic Fear cascades so that anyone in the created aura who fails their save generates another aura, which itself can spawn more auras? Nifty.

I can post a bit more detailed feedback later, hopefully.

Edit: And my money is on Little Trickster and Winged Death.
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Offline veekie

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Re: [3.5/PF] The War-Frenzy [Base Class]
« Reply #34 on: June 20, 2012, 01:11:35 PM »
Yep, its a pandemic of fear, but of limited applicability in combat, so why not.
Everything is edible. Just that there are things only edible once per lifetime.
It's a god-eat-god world.

Procrastination is the thief of time; Year after year it steals, till all are fled,
And to the mercies of a moment leaves; The vast concerns of an eternal scene.

Offline Bozwevial

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Re: [3.5/PF] The War-Frenzy [Base Class]
« Reply #35 on: June 20, 2012, 01:21:53 PM »
Yep, its a pandemic of fear, but of limited applicability in combat, so why not.
Nice for scattering armies, at the very least.
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Offline Agita

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Re: [3.5/PF] The War-Frenzy [Base Class]
« Reply #36 on: June 20, 2012, 01:30:22 PM »
Yep, its a pandemic of fear, but of limited applicability in combat, so why not.
Nice for scattering armies, at the very least.
Or cities.
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Offline Prime32

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Re: [3.5/PF] The War-Frenzy [Base Class]
« Reply #37 on: June 21, 2012, 07:11:51 PM »
With Prey or Hunter's damage multiplier scaling by your BAB, Fear seems like one of the more dippable madnesses, if you can call 5 levels a dip. It scales better than Joy's equivalent ability at least, despite a x3 damage +15 attack usually being more useful than +15/+10/+5 attacks (and progressing to x4 when Joy doesn't get a 4th attack). Also, I note it doesn't have much synergy with Rapid Shot or Manyshot.
I'm sure there's some shenanigans you can pull off with monster HD or cleric buffs, but they probably don't amount to much.

Now, the four Beast Totems that are currently closest to "ready" to post are called Earth Fury, Little Trickster, Singing Breeze, and Winged Death. Which two of these would you like to see next, based just on the name?
Earth Fury + Winged Death.

Offline Bozwevial

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Re: [3.5/PF] The War-Frenzy [Base Class]
« Reply #38 on: June 22, 2012, 08:04:38 PM »
Quick question: If you have Shot on the Run already, can you only benefit from the damage multiplier while in a trance?
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Offline Agita

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Re: [3.5/PF] The War-Frenzy [Base Class]
« Reply #39 on: June 23, 2012, 03:32:08 PM »
With Prey or Hunter's damage multiplier scaling by your BAB, Fear seems like one of the more dippable madnesses, if you can call 5 levels a dip. It scales better than Joy's equivalent ability at least, despite a x3 damage +15 attack usually being more useful than +15/+10/+5 attacks (and progressing to x4 when Joy doesn't get a 4th attack).
You're right, and after some debate, I think we'll change Joy's 5th level ability to scale with BAB instead. Should it grant a fourth attack at -15 eventually? The main reason we didn't put it in was laziness, since there isn't already a feat that does that.
Also, I note it doesn't have much synergy with Rapid Shot or Manyshot.
Correct, and we're okay with that.
I'm sure there's some shenanigans you can pull off with monster HD or cleric buffs, but they probably don't amount to much.
Iterative attacks from BAB are capped at four, so those don't work, if you're talking about what I think you're talking about.

Quick question: If you have Shot on the Run already, can you only benefit from the damage multiplier while in a trance?
No, but the case is minor enough that I can't bring myself to care a lot if people read it to the contrary. Should it be clarified?
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