Level | Base Attack Bonus | Fort Save | Ref Save | Will Save | Special |
1st | +0 | +0 | +2 | +0 | Aim, Precise Shot, Trackless Step |
2nd | +1 | +0 | +3 | +0 | Close Quarters Ranged Combat, Light Step, Rangefinder, Trick Shot |
3rd | +2 | +1 | +3 | +1 | Keen Perception, Light Step (Spider Climb), Practiced Shooter |
4th | +3 | +1 | +4 | +1 | Rangefinder, Trick Shot |
5th | +3 | +1 | +4 | +1 | Fast Aim, Improved Snipe |
6th | +4 | +2 | +5 | +2 | Darkstalker, Trick Shot |
7th | +5 | +2 | +5 | +2 | Cunning Veil, Light Step (Water Walk) |
8th | +6/+1 | +2 | +6 | +2 | Rangefinder, Trick Shot |
9th | +6/+1 | +3 | +6 | +3 | Powerful Aim |
10th | +7/+2 | +3 | +7 | +3 | Greater Snipe, Trick Shot |
11th | +8/+3 | +3 | +7 | +3 | Hide in Plain Sight, Veteran Shooter |
12th | +9/+4 | +4 | +8 | +4 | Rangefinder, Trick Shot |
13th | +9/+4 | +4 | +8 | +4 | Accelerated Aim |
14th | +10/+5 | +4 | +9 | +4 | Light Step (Fly), Trick Shot |
15th | +11/+6/+1 | +5 | +9 | +5 | Superior Snipe |
16th | +12/+7/+2 | +5 | +10 | +5 | Rangefinder, Trick Shot |
17th | +12/+7/+2 | +5 | +10 | +5 | Mighty Aim |
18th | +13/+8/+3 | +6 | +11 | +6 | Sudden Aim, Trick Shot |
19th | +14/+9/+4 | +6 | +11 | +6 | Fire All |
20th | +15/+10/+5 | +6 | +12 | +6 | One Shot Kill, Trick Shot |
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My problem (and I think Ejo's as well) with the Sneak Attack ranges for this class was how poorly paced it was. It went every 5 levels double, double, INFINITE. That why we both suggested a range increment dependent one, so at level 1 (for a class like this, level 1 would be important) it would be out to 1 increment, then at level x it's 2, then at 2x it's 3 increments, etc. This makes it so that at level 1 you already have an imporved range capacity on the SA, and it goes up steadily, up to a max of you entire range increment set at 20 (5 increments, I'm thinking at every multiple of 5 level you get the boost).Well, it's not functionally infinite. You still have a maximum range on your bow (with a -20 penalty to hit!) and rules for Spot checks and distances, but it could work by just adding distances or range increments in some fashion.
As for the SLAs...why? I'm thinking at this point, you might as well start setting out a spell list. or rather just give (ex) abilities that mimic these spells, if only to boost the power.Any of those could work. The idea was just to fill in some gaps in capability, and also some new dead levels if the +2 Dex abilities are removed.
I know, I was being a tad hyperbolic. But the point remains that up until then you are still effectively capped at 1 range increment. You have 60 feet at level 6, and 120 at level 11, as a sniper. So you basically aren't a sniper as a Sniper until you get to level 11, and aren't a good (re: long range) one until level 16. 60' is only 20 yards, btw. That's nothing. 40 isn't much either. Modern day small arms are capable of being accurate at 20 yards, easily.I guess we could focus on what actually happens in games.
just give (ex) abilities that mimic these spells, if only to boost the power.
Casters can totally out pace that type of ability while actively trying not to pull out any of the stops.
In my experience, extreme range encounters are quite rare, and often are set up deliberately from one side or the other.
It makes the class semi-dippable, but I don't have a huge problem with that.
Wholesale changes. Better?
Ranged Sneak Attack (Ex): At 3rd level, the maximum range at which a Sniper can make a Sneak Attack is 30ft, or a single range increment for the weapon they are using (i.e. A Sniper using a thrown dagger can make a ranged sneak attack at 30ft. with no distance penalty, and a Sniper using a composite longbow can make a ranged sneak attack at 110ft. with no distance penalty). At 7th level, the maximum range increases to 60ft. / two range increments. At 11th level, the maximum increases to 90ft / three range increments, and again at 15th level to 120 ft / four range increments. Finally, at 19th level, the maximum range at which a Sniper can make a sneak attack with no range penalty is Line of Sight, regardless of the weapon they are using.I'd suggest changing these to:
Improved Sneak Attack (Ex): A Sniper of sufficient level can make Sneak Attacks against creatures which would normally be immune to such attacks. At 4th level, a Sniper can make sneak attacks against Undead. At 8th level, a Sniper can use sneak attacks against Elementals. A Sniper of 12th level can sneak attack Constructs, and at 16th level, a Sniper can make sneak attacks against Oozes and Plants.
Ranged Sneak Attack (Ex): At 3rd level, when making a ranged attack a sniper may treat any target within one range increment as being 30ft away for determining effects based on distance (such as sneak attack, coup de grace and Point Blank Shot). This has no effect if the target is closer than 30ft.This way there's increased compatibility with other precision-based effects.
Horizon Eye (Ex): At 7th level, when making a ranged attack a sniper may treat her target as being one range increment closer for all purposes (including attack penalties, maximum attack distance, and her Ranged Sneak Attack ability). At 11th level she may treat her target as being two range increments closer, and at 15th level she may treat her target as being three range increments closer. At 19th level she may attack any target within line of sight as if they were within one range increment.
Improved Sneak Attack (Ex): At 4th level, a Sniper can make Sneak Attacks against creatures which would normally be immune to such attacks, but the damage dice are reduced to d2s. At 8th level these become d4s, and at 16th level she may apply her full sneak attack damage.
Horizon Eye (Ex): At 7th level, when making a ranged attack a sniper may treat her target as being one range increment closer for all purposes (including attack penalties, maximum attack distance, and her Ranged Sneak Attack ability). At 11th level she may treat her target as being two range increments closer, and at 15th level she may treat her target as being three range increments closer. At 19th level she may attack any target within line of sight as if they were within one range increment.
I would actually disagree with this one, myself... It means she has no penalty at all for attacks at any distance... The 19th level version is essentially setting your range increment to infinite as well as allowing sneak attacks.And that's supposed to be a bad thing in the crazy-powerful world of lv19s? :huh
For example, not sure how I feel about the massive buff to crit multiplier... Even at only 18 Wis you're giving +7 on top of everything else... So at least 56d6 SA on crits, which all your attacks should be SAs by this point...
I would actually disagree with this one, myself... It means she has no penalty at all for attacks at any distance... The 19th level version is essentially setting your range increment to infinite as well as allowing sneak attacks.And that's supposed to be a bad thing in the crazy-powerful world of lv19s? :huh
Something is weird with your formatting. Look at the class features carefully.
Another problem: your sniper shot is way too complicated. You have to make a number of attacks to make your single attack viable for a full attack replacement?
Just make it +1-3/+1d4-8.
And actually, I'd make it just damage based on class level, and then have Wis be an attack bonus.
A major concern I have with those, however, is that now you can have a bow with a crit of 12-20x4 or something.
You have Ranged Pin, Trip, Grapple, and Disarm. These things already exist as feats.
And if so, then change it so that it's not multiplied. Bonus damage dice is never multiplied.
Also, I'd not do the multiplying the attack bonus thing. Just have it be Wis modifier. That's reasonable, while making you an almost certain hit, which is what this class need to be able to do. If you have it a straight Wis to attack, then a normal archer will still be using Dex as a primary, but Wis will likely be larger. This effectively increases the attack modifier by a secondary or tertiary stat, and investing in Zen Archery will allow a double stat to attack. This is absolutely not a problem for a character with a primary ability being "only attack once in a round". You NEED that shot to hit almost every time.
Why have ranged pin require them to be wearing clothing? You should be able to pin them to a tree through their body, etc. What it should require is an adjacent object or wall to pin them to.
(At Home on the) Range (Ex) ...
Shotwalk: At 20th level, as a Move action the sniper may 'follow' a shot; the sniper may Teleport to the location of a target of a ranged attack the sniper makes that hits that target, even if that location is on another Plane (for example, if the sniper shot at a target through a Gate). The sniper may appear anywhere within 20 feet of the location along the line of the shot, facing the point of impact of the shot. If the shot has not yet impacted any target in the round following the attack, the sniper may follow it to its current location and then continue to follow it from round to round until the shot does make impact.
I can see... the sun. I shoot it. Now I Teleport after my shot... still Teleporting... still Teleporting... hmmm. That arrow isn't going to make it, it's falling into the ocean and so am I. OK, before I fall in, from three miles up (now I get why they call it *terminal* velocity) I can see that cloud from here; I'm shooting it.... now I Teleport toward the cloud and not fall in! Yay! By nightfall I'll be across the ocean, if the weather holds for good visibility. I think I'll buy a Ring of Featherfall, before I try this again...
Fast Aim (Ex): At 5th level, a Sniper may use her Aim ability as a Standard Action. If she gets multiple attacks with a Full-Attack Action, a Sniper may apply her Aim bonuses to all of them.
Accelerated Aim (Ex): A Sniper of 13th level can use her Aim ability as a Move Action.
Get rid of the parenthetical for (at home on the) range, it really clutters up the table. Call the ability "rangefinder".
Don't use superscripts for level things, it makes the line and word spacing look weird. Just say "3rd" (or whatever).
The second part of Fast Aim is meaningless; you can't do a Full Attack and a Standard Action at the same time. I really think you should decouple Aim from the attack. Make Aim a move action which applies the bonus to your next attack in the same round; later it becomes a swift action, and then it applies to all attacks in a round.
Also, I'm confused about how Fast Aim and Accelerated Aim work. Do they stack with other sources of extra attacks such as Rapid Shot or Haste? I'm looking at the wording:QuoteFast Aim (Ex): At 5th level, a Sniper may use her Aim ability as a Standard Action. If she gets multiple attacks with a Full-Attack Action, a Sniper may apply her Aim bonuses to all of them.
Accelerated Aim (Ex): A Sniper of 13th level can use her Aim ability as a Move Action.
I guess even with three attacks at level 5, you're only adding 15d4 damage, which is about 37.5 damage. This is still solidly under uber-charger territory.
Can you combine Fast Aim and Accelerated Aim in one round? Normally, you get a standard action and a move action in one round, and nothing in Accelerated Aim says it replaces Fast Aim, so it seems legal. I'm going to assume you weren't planning on handing out two full attacks at 13th level with 13d6 damage on top of each one and +Wis to hit.
The class seems really dip friendly. With one level, you get the ability to ignore Point Blank Shot as a prereq, Precise Shot, and a better version of Far Shot that stacks with Far Shot. I'd consider bumping the last ability up to level 2 and swap it with something like Trackless Step or whatever.
I like the capstone, except... it's basically the same as a 4th-level Ranger spell (arrowstorm), except that it trades semi-unlimited distance for capping the # of attacks.
What should the wording be to get all of that across without actually putting in that example? Or should I put in that example?Note that the standard or move-action version only applies to one attack. You may gain the Aim bonus to all of your attacks from a full attack as a full-round action.
What should the wording be to get all of that across without actually putting in that example? Or should I put in that example?Note that the standard or move-action version only applies to one attack. You may gain the Aim bonus to all of your attacks from a full attack as a full-round action.
First, at 16th level the Sniper no longer has to worry about range increments and can fire at any target in line of sight. This is the Epic Feat "Distance Shot". Now, Distance Shot has the prerequisites of Dex 25, Far Shot, Point Blank Shot, and Spot 20 ranks. I don't know if you really want to give a class an epic feat at 16th. 20th maybe, but 16th?I wouldn't use epic feats as a bench mark. Many of them are pretty lame. By 16th level, casters are whipping around 8th level spells, so I'm not too worried about an archer being able to shoot at anything he can see.
Caster are whipping around 8th level spells, and luckily, with that class ability you can technically outrange their long range AbracapocalypseYou'd need both an area wide open enough to take advantage of it, and a ridiculously high Spot mod. Note that every ten feet adds a -1 penalty to the check. At 16th level, a Long range spell reaches 1040 feet (400 + 40 per level). That's a -104 penalty on your Spot check.
I think I agree with RobbyPants here. Sable, if it made you feel better, I could move that ability to 17th, so theoretically the Spot requirement could be fulfilled.First, at 16th level the Sniper no longer has to worry about range increments and can fire at any target in line of sight. This is the Epic Feat "Distance Shot". Now, Distance Shot has the prerequisites of Dex 25, Far Shot, Point Blank Shot, and Spot 20 ranks. I don't know if you really want to give a class an epic feat at 16th. 20th maybe, but 16th?I wouldn't use epic feats as a bench mark. Many of them are pretty lame. By 16th level, casters are whipping around 8th level spells, so I'm not too worried about an archer being able to shoot at anything he can see.
Plus, remember that the Spot rules limit how far you can effectively see, anyway.
Speaking of 20th, that's not just an epic feat too it's actually BETTER! Swarm of Arrows lets you rain down doom at your base attack bonus to every enemy in 30 feet as a full action.Yeah. I kept going back and forth about whether it should be 30' or any distance. The compromise I came to was Any Distance, but limited the number of attacks to WisMod. Now, depending on the char('s WisMod), that could potentially be more than would be attacked by ArrowStorm, but it might not.
I looked at this class, and while it's a sniper, and has lots of movement and hiding and what not, it has no Save or Die ability. Why not give them the Pathfinder Ranger 20th level ability of "Once Per Day, an arrow you fire is an Arrow of Slaying." deal. A 20th level sniper should be able to literally just command someone to die by twanging an arrow, or whatever sound effect arrows make.On
Now, ShotWalk. It sounds really interesting, but the ultimate question is Why? I'm a Sniper. I have a spot, and I'm not leaving it. Now, if I'm discovered and people are trying to kill me, then I can use the ability to fire at anything I can see to shoot the horizon and leave combat 11 miles behind me. Sure, that's handy. But there's no way I'm going to teleport within 30 feet of the guy I just shot. He's probably either dead, or super-pissed off.
What you may want to consider are things like "You can scry on the location of anywhere your shots hit" or something like that.With an ability like this, could you use what you can see with the Scry to have "Line of Sight" to a target?
Okay, so Light Step. It's WIS mod / day or Class Level / Day... which means after fifth level, it's Class Level / Day. Why not pick one :) Either make it Wisdom Mod / Day for each of them (Because if you need to cast Water Walk more then 3 times a day, something is terribly wrong), or just let them do it whenever they want after 10th level. Since you'll be using your class level as the caster level (Which you didn't mention but I assumed), most of these will last long enough to get you either to a great vantage point (In the cases of Spider Climb and Water Walk)... or to Valhalla (In the case of Air Walk).Changed to WisMod/day, and added clarification about caster level.
Perhaps also include a class feature that says "Non-magical arrows and bolts that you fire that miss don't ever break" and then later on "Magical arrows and bolts you fire that miss only break 50% of the time" to let snipers recover arrows better.I'm not sure if any DMs actually make players keep track of non-magical ammo. Magical ammo on the other hand (Arrow of Bone?) could be a different story. I'll add something for both, even if the non-magical part is just fluff.
Also account for folks taking levels in Sniper that aren't using a bow (Since it isn't a pre-requisite). You could take this class with someone who throws axes or javelins. Or small countries (See "Hulking Hurler" for details).:lol Talk about a Ranged Pin! There's actually nothing anywhere in the meat of the class that says anything about using a bow. I think the only thing is at the beginning where it says "A Wisdom-based Archer," and "Wisdom-based Ranged Attacker" doesn't have quite the same ring to it. Any suggestions for better wording?
Cause you know someone on this board will class into Sniper from HH and when they're discovered, they'll throw the tree they're hiding in at someone.
I like the trick shots!:D I'm glad! I do too.
Though, a few of them replace feats. Will they replace the feat for the purposes of qualifying for stuff as well. I know Ranged Disarm is a feat, for instance.I added language to make them count as pre-req's. Also, I wanted to make them a little better than the feats, so that someone might actually want to take them. Any ideas on that subject? Or ideas for other Trick Shots?
This class doesn't need martial maneuvers. Don't make a class that can do everything.
With an ability like this, could you use what you can see with the Scry to have "Line of Sight" to a target?
This class doesn't need martial maneuvers. Don't make a class that can do everything.
Make a class that can do NOTHING!
Oh wait, I already did.
Greater Snipe reads to me unclearly enough to allow infinite attacks... Hide, attack, hide at no penalty, attack, hide at no penalty, attack... You don't give an action type for that second Hide check; is it a move action as normal?
I feel like I'm being picky, but maybe tell that they are two different abilities. Add an, "In addition..." for the second part, maybe? Up to you.Greater Snipe reads to me unclearly enough to allow infinite attacks... Hide, attack, hide at no penalty, attack, hide at no penalty, attack... You don't give an action type for that second Hide check; is it a move action as normal?Re-worded. Better?
I feel like I'm being picky, but maybe tell that they are two different abilities. Add an, "In addition..." for the second part, maybe? Up to you.Greater Snipe reads to me unclearly enough to allow infinite attacks... Hide, attack, hide at no penalty, attack, hide at no penalty, attack... You don't give an action type for that second Hide check; is it a move action as normal?Re-worded. Better?
Greater Snipe (Ex): At 10th level, a Sniper who has successfully Hidden may make a single ranged attack and then immediately Hide at no penalty. In addition, if a Sniper who has successfully hidden uses a full-round action to attack with a ranged weapon, the penalty to the subsequent Hide check is decreased to -10.
That is fantastic, Fire-san! Much clearer!
EDIT: I wish this class were made by WotC. It is the quintessential sniping class, and I love it! It would compliment my sniper Factotum perfectly! Hey, is there any chance you could make a feat that bases it on INT instead of WIS? It would assist the archetype of, "I've been studying up on anatomy, so be assured I'll hit his arteries with every shot."
Studied Killer
Extensive analysis has provided the Sniper with intimate knowledge of all types of bodies, and their weak points.
Pre-requisite: Sniper's Aim ability.
Benefit: All of a Sniper's class abilites based on Wisdom are instead based on Intelligence.
What about a trick shot that bonks them on the head and stuns them? Would only work on creatures with discernible anatomy?
Lights Out:
Prerequisites: None
Benefit: With this trick, a Sniper may substitute a Ranged Touch Attack for a normal attack. If this attack succeeds, instead of dealing normal damage, the target must make a Fortitude Save or be stunned for 1d4 rounds. The Save DC for this ability is 10 + 1/2 Class Level + Wisdom Modifier.
Special: This trick does not affect creatures normally immune to Stunning. This trick only works on creatures with discernible anatomy. Using this trick does not count against uses of the Weak Spot trick.
What about a trick shot that bonks them on the head and stuns them? Would only work on creatures with discernible anatomy?
Check it out:QuoteLights Out:
Prerequisites: None
Benefit: With this trick, a Sniper may substitute a Ranged Touch Attack for a normal attack. If this attack succeeds, instead of dealing normal damage, the target must make a Fortitude Save or be stunned for 1d4 rounds. The Save DC for this ability is 10 + 1/2 Class Level + Wisdom Modifier.
Special: This trick does not affect creatures normally immune to Stunning. This trick only works on creatures with discernible anatomy. Using this trick does not count against uses of the Weak Spot trick.
The mechanic of Aim is a little awkward, at least in it's wording.
If I am understanding your intent correctly, this is how it works as it scales.
Full round action for one attack.
Standard action for one attack but full round action for full attack.
Move action for one attack but full round action for full attack.
It would be less awkward to simply make it take a full round action to take a full attack with X bonuses. This allows auto scaling of number of attacks as they gain them. Then simply make the speedier versions allow one attack with aim bonuses as a standard and then a move. I would also recommend adding in an immediate action step.
And 18th level just doesn't make sense. You're already allowing the class to mundanely hide in any situation (though it would be better to base it off of Shadowdancer's HiPS, the ranger version needs camouflage to work properly) but then suddenly converting it to being magic based instead??? Just make sure that the HiPS version you give this class works without cover or concealment and give them the Darkstalker feat at some point (allowing them to hide against scent and blindsight and such).
Also the 19th and 20th level abilities are ridiculously weak.
1/day death attack at level 19? Seriously? It's level 19. Just make ALL Aim attacks be a save or die. This would make an immediate action Aim step very dangerous and tactically viable.
Whirlwind attack as a level 20 capstone? Seriously? Even with my suggested level 19 ability this is weak. Uncap it and swap it with my recommendation for level 19.
Swapped Fire All and One Shot Kill.
For uncapping Fire All, did you mean the uses per encounter or the number of targets in the attack? Or both? For the moment, I got rid of the max number of targets.
For One Shot Kill, instead of making it every Aim attack, I made it a single attack as a standard action (with Aim bonuses), but I did uncap the uses/day. I didn't want to make it every attack of a full-attack action, because that doesn't really seem like a "sniper-y" thing.
I would also recommend switching the wording from "any opponent she can see" to "all opponents she can see," thereby clarifying that there is no limit to the targets.
So much yummier now... :thumb
I can't wait to play one and see how it all actually goes together. I have a feeling that it's going to be hard to pick Trick Shots - at least I hope it is!
Limiting Extra Trick to equal sniper level only really affects first level, since by third level you won't really be able to take it that much (assuming it was limited from first level). Thereafter, the limit just gets that much more useless.
Honestly, I wouldn't bother with a limit. Limiting it so one can't take it multiple times at first level doesn't work since you don't get trick shot until second level. Even if it did its job, most of the trick shots have prerequisites. Honestly I don't believe the limit does any good. If someone wants to use up all their free feats on Extra Trick, they ought to be able to. With so many trick shots available, there are too many to choose from. Let the sniper broaden their skillset a bit. :D
The reason sniper is necessary is the threatening at range. Normally you wouldn't threaten so you couldn't make the later-on attacks, at least via my understanding.
Then you're only gaining two extra attacks (one improved trip attack from each, though each does hit both targets), and this isn't broken at all, especially when you're sinking so many levels into such a niche scenario.
Then you're only gaining two extra attacks (one improved trip attack from each, though each does hit both targets), and this isn't broken at all, especially when you're sinking so many levels into such a niche scenario.
Not so. Those attacks trigger Knockback again and can propagate outward to other enemies. Nothing says you can't bull rush a prone creature.
I realize this is some serious NecroNo problem. This is the perfect time of year for such things.
Light Step: When you reference "broken terrain" are you referring to "difficult terrain"?Yup. Fixed.
Cunning Veil: Why Competence? If you are trying to get decent Hide, you will, by default, go for Greater Shadow, Shadowsilk armor. IMO, this would be much better left untyped. Much like how a Darkstalker Factotum gets Int to Hide. No reason for the Factotum to be better at using Hide than a Sniper.
Cunning Veil (Ex): A Sniper of 7th level may apply her Wisdom modifier as a bonus to her Hide check.Better?
Insightful Action [feat]: Why only 1/2 Wis? Yondalla's Sense adds full Wis.Hmm... Full WisMod seems like too much to me. I mean, for a high-op character, a +10 mod isn't that hard. And Imp Init is already one of the best feats in the game. (And just because Yondalla's Sense exists doesn't mean I have to agree with it :) ) I dunno. Does anyone else have thoughts on this?
Various Trick Shot abilities: Ones that have limited uses (e.g. Wis mod per encounter) should have the rule of uses being declared before attacks are rolled, as well as whether the ability use is used up if the attack fails.Good point. I added this wording to all of those:
A use of this ability must be declared before the attack roll is made, and the use is expended regardless of the result.
Nah. I agree with your analysis. Heck, +10 would be mid-op. Mailman gets +16 w/o really trying.QuoteInsightful Action [feat]: Why only 1/2 Wis? Yondalla's Sense adds full Wis.Hmm... Full WisMod seems like too much to me. I mean, for a high-op character, a +10 mod isn't that hard. And Imp Init is already one of the best feats in the game. (And just because Yondalla's Sense exists doesn't mean I have to agree with it :) ) I dunno. Does anyone else have thoughts on this?
Weak Spot:
Prerequisites: Sharp Focus
Benefit: A number of times per encounter equal to the Sniper’s Class Level or Wisdom Modifier, whichever is smaller, a Sniper may make a ranged touch attack instead of a normal ranged attack. A use of this ability must be declared before the roll is made, and the use is expended regardless of the result.
Special: This trick cannot be used in conjunction with spells/maneuvers/powers/similar which require ranged attack rolls. This trick can only be taken once.
Fixed a couple formatting issues that had been bugging me.
Also added a clause to Weak Spot to make it not usable with, well, see below, cause it could have had unforeseen issues.
Question: compared to Light Step, is Demoralizing Shot basically an auto-take?
Fixed a couple formatting issues that had been bugging me.
Also added a clause to Weak Spot to make it not usable with, well, see below, cause it could have had unforeseen issues.
I don't personally think those were issues at all. Requires 4 levels of a non casting class hurt, as does wisdom bonus limit if you're not a wisdom caster.
Really, the only people I can see benefiting from it, at all, as a dip are Master Throwers and Stormguard Warriors, And even then they are likely taking the levels for other class features and probably picking up different tricks, the MT, for example, only gains Str to damage by using that trick instead of one his own.
Question: compared to Light Step, is Demoralizing Shot basically an auto-take?
No, they are desired by different niches.
But Light Step still does not scale nearly as well. So you give a mobility option that will feel good for those who want to prioritize mobility, but they will still know that the debuff based snipers are doing their focus better.
I'd suggest {things}
Light Step (Su): A Sniper of 2nd level can move through difficult terrain at her normal speed without incurring any penalties. At 3rd level, a Sniper can use Spider Climb (as per the 2nd level Spell) a number of times per day equal to her Wisdom bonus, with a caster level equal to her class level. At 7th level, a Sniper can use Water Walk (as per the 3rd level Spell) a number of times per day equal to her Wisdom bonus, with a caster level equal to her class level. At 14th level, a Sniper can use Air Walk (as per the 4th level Spell) a number of times per day equal to her Wisdom bonus, with a caster level equal to her class level.
Light Step (Su): A Sniper of 2nd level can move through difficult terrain at her normal speed without incurring any penalties. In addition, she may move at her full speed with no penalty to Hide or Move Silently, and only takes a -10 penalty while running or charging. At 3rd level, a Sniper can use Spider Climb once per encounter per two Sniper levels, with a caster level equal to her class level. At 7th level, a Sniper can use Water Walk once per encounter per three Sniper levels, with a caster level equal to her class level. In addition, she gains Climb and Swim speeds equal to half her base speed. At 14th level, a Sniper can use Air Walk once per encounter per four Sniper levels, with a caster level equal to her class level. In addition, her Climb and Swim speeds increase to the same as her base speed, and she takes no penalty to Hide and Move Silently while running or charging.
Light Step (Su): A Sniper of 2nd level can move through difficult terrain at her normal speed without incurring any penalties. In addition, she may move at her full speed with no penalty to Hide or Move Silently, and only takes a -10 penalty while running or charging. At 3rd level, a Sniper can use Spider Climb once per encounter per two Sniper levels, with a caster level equal to her class level. At 7th level, a Sniper can use Water Walk once per encounter per three Sniper levels, with a caster level equal to her class level. In addition, she gains Climb and Swim speeds equal to half her base speed. At 14th level, a Sniper can use Air Walk once per encounter per four Sniper levels, with a caster level equal to her class level. In addition, her Climb and Swim speeds increase to the same as her base speed, and she takes no penalty to Hide and Move Silently while running or charging.
Fixed a couple formatting issues that had been bugging me.Bleh, damn you for your attempts at balance. Were these "fixes" inspired by my character, Zeus in Heroes Reborn (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=8662.0)? :P
Also added a clause to Weak Spot to make it not usable with, well, see below, cause it could have had unforeseen issues.QuoteWeak Spot:
Prerequisites: Sharp Focus
Benefit: A number of times per encounter equal to the Sniper’s Class Level or Wisdom Modifier, whichever is smaller, a Sniper may make a ranged touch attack instead of a normal ranged attack. A use of this ability must be declared before the roll is made, and the use is expended regardless of the result.
Special: This trick cannot be used in conjunction with spells/maneuvers/powers/similar which require ranged attack rolls. This trick can only be taken once.
Question: compared to Light Step, is Demoralizing Shot basically an auto-take? If so, should I change anything? Options are:
- Do nothing, it's fine.
- Scale back Demoralizing Shot in some way.
- Scale up Light Step in some way.
- Swap the two so that Demoralizing Shot is standard, and turn Light Step into an ACF.
- Something else?
Bleh, damn you for your attempts at balance. Were these "fixes" inspired by my character, Zeus in Heroes Reborn (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=8662.0)? :P
For him, Light Step was a no brainer because he'll be flying 24/7. For some, it might not be.
Gah! :banghead Although I mostly plan on using my Mindblades, which are technically none of the listed things...Bleh, damn you for your attempts at balance. Were these "fixes" inspired by my character, Zeus in Heroes Reborn (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=8662.0)? :P
For him, Light Step was a no brainer because he'll be flying 24/7. For some, it might not be.
:lol Actually, the part about Weak Spot I saw when looking at arias's character on Team MONSTER - not that he's taking advantage of it, just that it occurred to me then. Although, now that you mention it, I might need to put that sentence into Called Shot too. :P
:hug Don't worry.Gah! :banghead Although I mostly plan on using my Mindblades, which are technically none of the listed things...Bleh, damn you for your attempts at balance. Were these "fixes" inspired by my character, Zeus in Heroes Reborn (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=8662.0)? :P
For him, Light Step was a no brainer because he'll be flying 24/7. For some, it might not be.
:lol Actually, the part about Weak Spot I saw when looking at arias's character on Team MONSTER - not that he's taking advantage of it, just that it occurred to me then. Although, now that you mention it, I might need to put that sentence into Called Shot too. :P
I guess the most potential for abuse would be gestalt, but then this would probably be way down there on the list of worries. I think on further reflection, I'm going to take it back out, because the spirit of the class is that all of your ranged attacks are awesome, regardless of the source.Also added a clause to Weak Spot to make it not usable with, well, see below, cause it could have had unforeseen issues.I don't personally think those were issues at all. Requires 4 levels of a non casting class hurt, as does wisdom bonus limit if you're not a wisdom caster.
Really, the only people I can see benefiting from it, at all, as a dip are Master Throwers and Stormguard Warriors, And even then they are likely taking the levels for other class features and probably picking up different tricks, the MT, for example, only gains Str to damage by using that trick instead of one his own.
I was thinking more about the possibility of having the extra uses for other party members.
Phae, what do you think of the new & improved Light Step progression?Since I wasn't using it before, I'm not sure what changed. :P It looks pretty useful, but not as much as the multiple uses per encounter you had in an earlier quote I saw, particularly because you could spam those on other party members. I mean hell... Air Walk at 14th level isn't a big deal even if it is at will. At that point, you can afford an item to fly, burn through UMD scrolls/wands, etc.
I was thinking more about the possibility of having the extra uses for other party members.
Ah, sorry. I had just assumed they were castable only on the Sniper himself. Being able to cast them on others makes that progression work much better, definitely.
It looks pretty useful, but not as much as the multiple uses per encounter you had in an earlier quote I saw, particularly because you could spam those on other party members. I mean hell... Air Walk at 14th level isn't a big deal even if it is at will. At that point, you can afford an item to fly, burn through UMD scrolls/wands, etc.
Light Step (Ex/SpL): A Sniper of 2nd level can move through difficult terrain at her normal speed without incurring any penalties. In addition, she may move at her full speed with no penalty to Hide or Move Silently, and only takes a -10 penalty while running or charging. At 3rd level, a Sniper can use Spider Climb once per encounter per two Sniper levels, with a caster level equal to her class level. At 7th level, a Sniper can use Water Walk once per encounter per three Sniper levels, with a caster level equal to her class level. In addition, she gains Climb and Swim speeds equal to half her base speed. At 14th level, a Sniper can use Fly once per encounter per four Sniper levels, except with a duration of 10 minutes per level, and with a caster level equal to her class level. In addition, her Climb and Swim speeds increase to be the same as her base speed, and she takes no penalty to Hide and Move Silently while running or charging. Uses of Spider Climb, Water Walk, and Fly may target willing allies in addition to the Sniper, and are spell-like abilities. All other benefits of Light Step are extraordinary.
Critical Precision
Prerequisite: Sneak attack, sudden strike, or skirmish class feature.
Benefit: When you score a critical hit when using sneak attack, sudden strike, or skirmish, you deal even more damage. For each extra +1d6 damage the ability normally adds, you add an additional +1d10 on a critical hit. If the weapon's critical multiplier is x3, the extra damage is instead +2d10 per +1d6 the ability normally adds. If the weapon's critical multiplier is x4, the extra damage is instead +3d10 per +1d6 the ability normally adds. (And so on, for higher critical multipliers.)
Normal: The extra damage from sneak attack, sudden strike, and skirmish is not improved on a critical hit.
Special: This extra damage does not apply to any creature that is immune to the base ability (sneak attack, sudden strike, or skirmish), unless you have some means of bypassing that immunity. Likewise, creatures immune to extra damage from critical hits do not take this extra damage either, unless you have some means of bypassing their immunity to critical hits.
The examples imply you use the d10 instead but the phasing of the ability says you add both.Benefit: When you score a critical hit when using sneak attack, sudden strike, or skirmish, you deal even more damage. For each extra +1d6 damage the ability normally adds, you add an additional +1d10 on a critical hit. If the weapon's critical multiplier is x3, the extra damage is instead +2d10 per +1d6 the ability normally adds. If the weapon's critical multiplier is x4, the extra damage is instead +3d10 per +1d6 the ability normally adds. (And so on, for higher critical multipliers.)I very well may be stealing this... :D
The examples imply you use the d10 instead but the phasing of the ability says you add both.
Also imagine Karoti Resin turning 10d6 SA into 30d10 (165 avg) on something like a Keen Scimitar which has a 30% chance to Crit.
Snag some levels in Disciple of Dispater to really pump your Crit chance
and a level of Rogue to bypass SA immunity