Author Topic: K's Revised Necromancer Handbook Discussion  (Read 22681 times)

Offline Libertad

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K's Revised Necromancer Handbook Discussion
« on: January 12, 2012, 08:15:34 PM »
Link.

Talk about errors/additions/revisions for the Necromancer Handbook here!
« Last Edit: September 23, 2015, 03:29:23 PM by Libertad »

Offline Summerstorm

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Re: K's Revised Necromancer Handbook Discussion
« Reply #1 on: January 12, 2012, 09:34:31 PM »
The "Healing/Killing yourself with negative Energy Burst"-Thingy is just wishful thinking. As much as any Dread Necromancers WISHED it would heal himself, nothing in the description points to that.

HoH p.86: "... emits a burst of negative energy FROM his body harming living creatures WITHIN 5 feet of her..."
no: "including yourself" or "9 squares including yours" or anything. Emitting FROM you is not including you.

Offline Libertad

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Re: K's Revised Necromancer Handbook Discussion
« Reply #2 on: January 12, 2012, 10:01:01 PM »
Placed this as a bolded edit note below the Dread Necromancer description.

Do you want me to credit you in the edit?
« Last Edit: January 12, 2012, 10:11:22 PM by Libertad »

Offline snakeman830

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Re: K's Revised Necromancer Handbook Discussion
« Reply #3 on: January 13, 2012, 12:16:26 AM »
Basically, everything that refers to Turn Resistance applying after the Rebuking needs to be edited.  The only time Turn Resistance matters is when you initially Rebuke the Undead (so things such as Necromantic Presence aren't traps for Clerics).

Another edit is in the Skeletal Dragon section where it claims it is in all ways worse than Awakened dragon skeletons when, in fact, the Skeletal Dragon template is purely an improvement over the normal Skeleton template.

Then there are omissions from books that were published after the original guide, such as Sickening Grasp (Complete Mage) being a VERY good feat for Dread Necromancers.
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Offline Libertad

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Re: K's Revised Necromancer Handbook Discussion
« Reply #4 on: January 13, 2012, 01:08:10 AM »
Unless it's too much trouble, can you give specific examples for Turn Resistance and Rebuke Undead?

That rule has never been my strong suit.

Offline snakeman830

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Re: K's Revised Necromancer Handbook Discussion
« Reply #5 on: January 13, 2012, 02:35:52 PM »
When you Rebuke Undead, you go through the rebuking check (1d20+rebuking level+Cha mod usually) then roll turning damage.  These indicate how many HD you succeed at Rebuking.  Undead with Turn Resistance add that value to their HD for this purpose.  If you succeed and your Rebuking level is at least twice the Undead's HD, you command it (again, Turn Resistance is added to actual HD for this purpose).

That, however, is it.  Once you command an Undead, it doesn't matter if it's Turn Resistance changes: it's still under your control.  K was obviously under the impression that if it's turn resistance increases, it suddenly breaks free, despite having no support whatsoever in the rules for that interpretation.

Using the fact that Turn Resistance and HD are only checked at the time of the Rebuking, it is possible to cheat your control pool a bit by using items that lower turn resistance (such as the lyre of the restful soul).  Also, the Necromantic Presence feat becomes worthwhile when battling other Rebukers as you can take their undead, but they will have a much harder time taking them back (as once they are under your control, they gain another +4 turn resistance)
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Offline Libertad

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Re: K's Revised Necromancer Handbook Discussion
« Reply #6 on: January 13, 2012, 02:42:42 PM »
I added an "Editor's Note" post at the end of the thread to post errata.

Offline midnight_v

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Re: K's Revised Necromancer Handbook Discussion
« Reply #7 on: January 13, 2012, 11:08:15 PM »
The "Healing/Killing yourself with negative Energy Burst"-Thingy is just wishful thinking. As much as any Dread Necromancers WISHED it would heal himself, nothing in the description points to that.

HoH p.86: "... emits a burst of negative energy FROM his body harming living creatures WITHIN 5 feet of her..."
no: "including yourself" or "9 squares including yours" or anything. Emitting FROM you is not including you.
Hmm..I don't think thats as clears as you might think. It shouldn't have to say "including you" buut... I'd have to go over the burst, emanation rules to say your actually "wrong" so... let it ride fro now.
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Offline Libertad

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Re: K's Revised Necromancer Handbook Discussion
« Reply #8 on: January 14, 2012, 12:15:52 AM »
I've decided to move all note/revision discussion to a last, separate post.

I'm not an expert in this, so I'll wait for a consensus from other posters before implementing any notes in the guide itself.

Offline flare90

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Re: K's Revised Necromancer Handbook Discussion
« Reply #9 on: January 19, 2012, 02:29:15 PM »
When the handbook talks about dread necromancer , it says:

Quote
Special Note: Once you attain 4th level, you will continue to accrue new spells known every 4 levels even if you take a +1 caster level PrC. Gaining new levels for the purpose of learning new spells is awesome for a Dread Necromancer.

However, nothing in the description of the Advanced Learning class feature seem to indicate so.

Offline gorfnab

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Re: K's Revised Necromancer Handbook Discussion
« Reply #10 on: January 20, 2012, 02:07:46 AM »
Another Necromancer style class is the Nightstalker from Dragonlance: Races of Ansalon (page 153). It gets necromancy spells, Rebuke Undead, and 3 Ghost Cohorts. It also gets advanced learning so you can pick up any non listed necromancy spells. The major downside of this class is that you only get up to 6th level spells (same spells per day as a bard). It's fluffed to be a Kender specific class but does make note that other races can take this class.

Offline snakeman830

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Re: K's Revised Necromancer Handbook Discussion
« Reply #11 on: January 21, 2012, 10:25:04 PM »
When the handbook talks about dread necromancer , it says:

Quote
Special Note: Once you attain 4th level, you will continue to accrue new spells known every 4 levels even if you take a +1 caster level PrC. Gaining new levels for the purpose of learning new spells is awesome for a Dread Necromancer.

However, nothing in the description of the Advanced Learning class feature seem to indicate so.
The reason why is because Advanced Learning is spells known, which is advanced by most casting PrC's.
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Offline 123456789blaaa

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Re: K's Revised Necromancer Handbook Discussion
« Reply #12 on: January 23, 2012, 04:23:32 PM »
Leaving dread necromancer at lvl 8 isn't as clear cut as k makes it seem. Malisteen on the gitp forums says it better than i can:

 "Perfectly reasonable house rules aside, the 8th level dread necromancer ability replaces the entire normal animate dead pool with the new limit. Ie, if you gain additional spellcaster levels outside of Dread necromancer, they won't give any additional control limit, although they'll still let you animate more HD in a single casting, allowing larger minions. In addition, other sources of increased caster level even for a character with only dread necromancer levels will not increase their maximum animate dead control pool, because, again, the 8th level ability does not add to the normal caster-level based limit, it replaces it entirely with a new class-level (which, yes, means levels in that class) based limit. An 8th level dread necromancer doesn't look at caster level at all when figuring maximum pool size for Animate Dead.

It's annoying, but if you max out cha you can kind of ignore it. An 8th level dread necro with maxed out cha has about the same animate dead limit as a 20th level regular caster, barring caster level bonuses, so its not costing you anything if you do only take 8 levels, and that 8th level is still worthwhile for the advanced learning. And the extra HP for your creations isn't bad. And Dread Necro builds can be feat starved to the point of skipping the Corpse Crafter chain entirely, at which point it's a much more meaningful ability. But it's not the magic dump point that K described it as. Ideal dump point actually seems to be 1st (for limitless out of combat healing), 5th (for fear aura), or maybe 7th (for the fancy familiar)."

I would also add that 12th lvl is also a good drop point since that is when you get the choice of 3 very good advanced learning spells: animate dread warrior, aura of terror and revive undead.
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Offline Libertad

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Re: K's Revised Necromancer Handbook Discussion
« Reply #13 on: January 23, 2012, 04:49:11 PM »
Added more stuff to the Editors' Notes section!

Offline snakeman830

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Re: K's Revised Necromancer Handbook Discussion
« Reply #14 on: January 24, 2012, 09:26:25 AM »
In addition to that bit, even if you're reading the ability to add your class level * Cha mod to your control pool, it's still frequently a good idea to continue in Dread Necro.  You still get decent bonuses as you level up in that class, and maximizing your Rebuking ability is a really, really good idea.
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Offline 123456789blaaa

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Re: K's Revised Necromancer Handbook Discussion
« Reply #15 on: January 24, 2012, 11:37:36 AM »
In addition to that bit, even if you're reading the ability to add your class level * Cha mod to your control pool, it's still frequently a good idea to continue in Dread Necro.  You still get decent bonuses as you level up in that class, and maximizing your Rebuking ability is a really, really good idea.

This is true. Dread necromancer is perfectly viable from 1-20.

Also you may want to add necromancy themed links such as "collection of necromantic oddities", the two dread necromancer handbooks, and treatmonks guide to necromancy spells.
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Offline 123456789blaaa

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Re: K's Revised Necromancer Handbook Discussion
« Reply #17 on: January 25, 2012, 09:44:29 AM »
Sorry to bother you again but there are two dread necromancer handbooks. While i like the one you linked, it unfortunately gives some bad advice. The reanimated dread necromancer handbook on gitp is much better for optimization advice.
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Offline Libertad

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Re: K's Revised Necromancer Handbook Discussion
« Reply #18 on: January 25, 2012, 05:52:41 PM »
Add one more Handbook.

I'm not good at combing through sourcebooks and builds, and I don't want to alter the Handbook itself unless I'm certain that something's wrong, so I'm going to leave the suggestions in the last two posts.

If you believe that a Handbook's giving bad advice (this one or another I linked to), it would help if you pointed out the passage and what's wrong with it.

Offline 123456789blaaa

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Re: K's Revised Necromancer Handbook Discussion
« Reply #19 on: January 25, 2012, 09:23:31 PM »
Add one more Handbook.

I'm not good at combing through sourcebooks and builds, and I don't want to alter the Handbook itself unless I'm certain that something's wrong, so I'm going to leave the suggestions in the last two posts.

If you believe that a Handbook's giving bad advice (this one or another I linked to), it would help if you pointed out the passage and what's wrong with it.

I misspoke. The new dread necromancer handbook doesn't give bad advice. It just has a ton of useless crap tacked on to it. If you can wade through those, it's pretty good.

The reanimated dread necromancer handbook is sound except for when it says that leaving to prestige at 8th level is a trap. It isn't. As malisteen says, while 8th isn't a magic drop point, its not bad.
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