New World Record

[PlzBreakMyCampaign]

Not to burst a bubble, but I know someone has done the dream elemental no scores with cha=1 before. Just saying.

[123456789blaaa]

Not to burst a bubble, but I know someone has done the dream elemental no scores with cha=1 before. Just saying.

Link?

[zook1shoe]

I talked about it awhile back, but never actually made it

here

I think I found a way to make a playable version

Crypt Spawn Dream Element Symbiotic Hairy Spider-Fungal Half-Illithid/Half-Living Wall Murder of Crows

4HD +3LA

[awaken_D_M_golem]

(?)

Hairy Spider + stuff ... Symbiotic on ... 1 Crow of the Murder Of Crows + stuff
as in
Hairy Spider (with Crypt , Spawn , Dream Element) on Crow (with Fungal , Half Illithid , Half Living Wall , Murder Of Crows)

[PlzBreakMyCampaign]

Link is broken. I do like builds like these. Can you stat the playable version with citations on the templates and even break out which template adds what to the total. I remember in the initial BG discussion that living had no LA. Where is half-living from?

[zook1shoe]

the one 2 posts ahead of yours?

[Amechra]

That's Half-Living Wall.

[zook1shoe]

Here's a exact writeup of the Dream and Living Wall templates, so we don't need to keep updating links.

(click to show/hide)

      Living Wall (Dr343 pg 48)
   "Living wall" is an acquired template than can be added to any Small, Medium, or Large corporeal aberration animal, dragon, fey, giant, humanoid, magical beast, monstrous humanoid, outsider, or vermin creatures with at least 4 Hit Dice. A living wall has all the base creature' statistics and special abilities except as noted here.
   Size and Type: The creature's type changes to undead. Do not recalculate base attack bonus, saves, or skill points. The creature's size changes to Medium, and although it retains its reach it loses all other bonuses derived from size.
   Speed: As an immobile creature, a living wall's speed is reduced to 0 feet and it loses all additional movement speeds (such as climb or fly).
   Hit Dice: Increase all current and future Hit Dice to d12s.
   Armor Class: A living wall loses any modifiers derived from Dexterity. A living wall has a +5 natural armor bonus or the base creature's natural armor bonus, whichever is greater.
   Attack: A living wall retains all of the attacks of the base creature and gains a slam attack if it didn't already have one. If the base creature can use weapons, the living wall retains this ability. A living wall without weapons uses either its slam attack or its primary natural weapon (if it has any). A living wall armed with a weapon uses its slam or a weapon, as it desires.
   Full Attack: A living wall fighting without weapons uses either its slam attack (see above) or its natural weapons (if it has any). If armed with a weapon, it usually uses the weapon as its primary attack along with a slam or other natural weapon as a natural secondary attack.
   Damage: Living walls have slam attacks. If the base creature does not have this attack form, this slam attack deals 1d6 points of damage. Creatures that have other kinds of natural weapons retain their old damage or use 1d6, whichever is better.
   Special Attacks: A living wall retains all the base creature's special attacks and gains those described below. Save DCs are equal to 10 + 1/2 the living wall's HD + the living wall's Charisma modifier unless otherwise noted.
   Absorb (Su): On its turn, a living wall can make an opposed grapple check to absorb a helpless or pinned opponent of size Large or smaller. An absorbed creature is helpless and cannot breathe. Once it suffocates, the creature, if it meets the right criteria, is made into a living wall creature. Creatures that do not need to breathe or eat remain within the living wall until the wall is destroyed. Half of any damage dealt to a living wall creature is also dealt to any creature absorbed within. Creatures trapped in this way are freed upon the destruction of the living wall creature that absorbed them.
   Creatures of a size smaller than Small and creatures with fewer than 4 Hit Dice are merely absorbed into the wall, which heals the wall a number of hit points equal to 1/2 the absorbed creature's normal hit point total (applied to the most injured sections of the wall first). This ability does not work on creatures of Huge size or larger, or creatures of the construct, elemental, ooze, plant, or undead types. All other creatures are absorbed into the wall, creating a new 5-foot-long section of wall with the living wall template. This new living wall creature is created adjacent to the creature that absorbed it, pushing other creatures away to make space. Creating a new creature in this way does not heal any other creatures in the wall.
   Improved Grab (Ex): A living wall that hits with a natural attack (such as a claw, bite, or unarmed strike) deals normal damage and attempts to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. Although they are treated as a larger creature in many aspects, each creature in a living wall may grapple individually and does not impose a penalty on other creatures in a living wall when part of a grapple. Creatures grappled by a living wall creature are pulled into its square (the living wall creature does not move).
   Many Arms (Ex): A living wall creature possesses numerous arms. While they cannot wield additional weapons, armor, or cast spells, they assist in all grapple checks, granting a +4 circumstance bonus on such attacks.
   Sickening Wounds (Ex): The wounds of a living wall emit a sickening stench. Anyone adjacent to a living wall creature when it takes damage is nauseated for 1d4 rounds. A Fortitude save avoids this condition.
   Special Qualities: A living wall retains all the base creature's special qualities and gains those described below.
   Amalgam (Ex): Each living wall creature is part of a larger wall, forming a continuous barrier with each creature taking up a 5-foot-square section of the wall. While effects that target only a single creature affect only one living wall creature (not the entire group forming a wall), the entire group is treated as a single creature for the purposes of the turn undead ability (adding all of their Hit Dice together). Each creature makes saving throws separately versus effects that target multiple creatures.
   Living wall creatures share the same goals and intentions, but may take different actions each round from one another. Each is treated as a separate creature for the purpose of feats (such as Spring Attack), skills, and attacks of opportunity. While living wall creatures all think independently, they can communicate with each other instantaneously, meaning that if one creature is aware of an opponent, all sections are aware.
   Damage Reduction (Su): A living wall creature is extraordinarily resistance and gains damage reduction 5/-.
   Hidden (Su): A living wall creature is disguised by an illusion similar to disguise self making it appear like an ordinary wall. Those adjacent to the wall see through this illusion.
   Immovable (Ex): A living wall creature cannot be moved in any way unless all of the other living wall creatures are moved, making it immune to bull rush and trip attempts. As with a normal wall, Tumble cannot be used to move through a square containing a living wall creature, although the creature can be scaled (Climb DC 20).
   Abilities: Increase from the base creature as follows: Str +4, Cha +4. Being an immovable undead creature, a living wall has no Dexterity or Constitution score.
   Skills: Living walls have a +4 racial bonus on Listen and Spot checks. Otherwise, same as the base creature.
   Organization: Wall (4-8 living wall creatures forming a single solid wall).
   Challenge Rating: Same as base creature +1.
   Treasure: Same as the base creature.
   Alignment: Any evil.
   Advancement: By character class.
   Alignment: --

      Dream Element (Dr287 pg 34)
   Dream element creatures dwell in the Dream Energy Plane, though rogue dream element creatures sometimes appear on other planes. They appear to be slightly translucent and range in hue from a rainbow of ever-shifting colors to the primal black of a creature of the Plane of Shadow. Their eyes and mouth, if any, always glow yellow.
   Creating A Dream Element Creature
   "Dream Element" is a template that can be added to any corporeal creature of the following base types: aberration, animal, beast, giant, humanoid, magical beast, monstrous humanoid, plant, or vermin. The creature's base type changes to "elemental (dream)." It uses all the base creature's statistical and special abilities except as noted here:
   Hit Dice: Change to d8.
   Attacks: Unchanged, but they become incorporeal.
   Damage: The creature does not cause normal damage but instead inflicts Wisdom damage according to its hit dice (see below).
   Special Attacks: A dream element creature retains all the special attacks of the base creature except those that are delivered by a touch attack. In addition, the creature gains the following:
   Wisdom Damage (Su): The touch of a dream element creature deals a variable amount of temporary Wisdom damage to a living foe, including those incapable of dreaming, such as elves. A creature that is reduced to 0 Wisdom by a dream element creature retreats into a comatose state, plagued by the vicious visions of the Elemental Plane of Dreams.
   Special Qualities: A dream element creature retains all the special qualities of the base creature and also gains the following:
   Elemental: Immune to poison, sleep, paralysis, and stunning. Not subject to critical hits.
   Endure Elements: Ignore the first 5 points of sonic, electrical, cold, fire, and acid damage each round.
   Incorporeal: Can be harmed only by other incorporeal creatures, +1 or better magic weapons, or magic, with a 50% chance to ignore any damage from a corporeal source. Can pass through solid objects at will and its attacks can pass through armor. Always moves silently.
   Darkvision: Range of 60 feet.
   Damage Reduction: The creature gains damage reduction according to its hit dice, as noted on the table below:
      Hit    Damage     Wisdom
      Dice  Reduction   Damage
      1-3       -             1
      4-7       -             1d2
      8-11     5/+1        1d3
      12+     10/+1        1d4
   If the base creature already has one or more of these special qualities, use the better value
   Saves: Same as the base creature.
   Abilities: Same as the base creature. However, it lacks a Wisdom score.
   Skills: Same as the base creature.
   Feats: Same as the base creature.
   Climate/Terrain: Any land and underground.
   Organization: Same as the base creature.
   Challenge Rating: Up to 3 HD, same as base creature +1; 3 HD to 7 HD, same as the base creature +2, 8+ HD, same as the base creature +3.
   Alignment: Same as the base creature.
   Advancement: Same as the base creature.

[SorO_Lost]

While the Type converting disagrees with the 3.5-legal Savage Species and Unseelie Fey isn't for PCs as a Template, I am curious as to how you stacked them.

(click to show/hide)

Hairy Spider: 1HD Vermin
Proto (I): No access to DL at this time, if I recall correctly it requires living and doesn't change you.
Half-Troll (I): Requires animal, dragon, fey, giant, humanoid, magical beast, monstrous humanoid, or outsider. Becomes Giant.
Brood Spawn (A?): No access to Elder Evils at this time.
Half-Golem (A): Requires animal, beast, giant, humanoid creature, magical beast, or monstrous humanoid.
Living Element (appears intended to be inherent): Requires aberration, animal, beast, giant, humanoid, magical beast, monstrous humanoid, plant, or vermin. Becomes Elemental (dream).
Unseelie (I): Requires any living and designed to be Inherent so it cannot be applied here. Becomes Fey.
Spectral Mage (A): Requires any Arcane corpse, but undead/elemental don't leave behind corpses. Becomes Undead (incorporeal).

Living Wall (A): Requires 4HD & aberration animal, dragon, fey, giant, humanoid, magical beast, monstrous humanoid, outsider, or vermin. Becomes Undead.

I'm not currently seeing how those can be successfully combined, mostly the Spectral Mage's yet-another-undead in there, maybe Brood Spawn fixes that? But then you still have stack order and 4HD...

[zook1shoe]

That order is backwards... The proto is the final template added, while Brood Spawn was the first.

3-1/8 racial HD +1d6 class HD is enough to qualify for Living Wall

I'm afc, so I can't give you anymore right now.
---
I forgot to mention that, despite its fly speed, it cannot move.

it also might not work w a hairy spider, since Living Wall needs Small-Large. But that's an easy switch w a Sword Spider.

[SorO_Lost]

Uncle Kitty's Guide to Template Based Shenanigans says Proto-Creature cannot be applied to Incorporeal Creatures (conflicts with specter mage & whatever the hell living element is supposed to be).

And it's still an Inherited Template so you still have that problem too.

[sambojin]

I forgot to mention that, despite its fly speed, it cannot move.

So casting Longstrider, Expeditious Retreat, or taking a level in Cleric (Celerity) still gives it a zero move speed? The brass golem leg hanging out of the wall just waggles around faster?

With Cleric (Celerity/Travel) 1 instead of Bard 1, you get +10 movement speed faster than your race's norm (there's probably heaps of these things about to compare their speed to), two movement spells (which you probably can't cast with Int/Wis --), but you can spontaneously cast Cure spells on party members. You also one round a day of Freedom of Movement. Plus, you can turn undead, but at Charisma 1 (-5 modifier), which means -2 turn attempts a day AFAIK (it might give you 1 turn attempt a day if your DM gives it as a minimum of one). You just need to take the extra turning feat at Cleric 1 and this character is totally playable to my mind. 2 turn attempts a day!

You'd be able to move 10' a day, almost definitely. Maybe even more.

The rest of the time you busy yourself with praying to the great god Scuzzlebutt, that he may let you do his great works more speedily.

A mindless, immobile character isn't allowed. But this way, you get to choose where you will take your great schlump forward for the day. You get to choose when. You can attack, so you can level up. You can cast Cure Light Wounds on people, so you can meaningfully interact. You even get to decide when and on what you will use your turning attempt(s). The possibilities are endless. Some players like simple-to-play characters. You can even roleplay your prayers to Scuzzlebutt as a rather uncharismatic vestige of a soul devoted to him, that HE might cast Expeditious Retreat upon you every once in a while. But only if you've been a good half-living wall. 40' of movement for the day? The greatest schlump forward! Imagine if someone gave you a +charisma item? Or you managed to level to Cleric 3 and took Disciple of the Sun as your next feat? You'd be a powerhouse!

Totally playable character.......

[zook1shoe]

@ Soro.... i don't even have this build saved anywhere... i think the reason why the Proto was even in there to cause the hairy spider to become Tiny.... but that doesn't help

i think if you pulled it out, it would still work w a sword spider replacement.

@ sambojin

you have to get rid of the Immobile ability to be able to move, despite whatever the speed section of the stat block says.

you could easily cast bard spells if you get your Cha higher.
-------------
funny thing? a will-o'-wisp gets an arm when it becomes a living wall

[SorO_Lost]

Pull Specter too, the Dream thing makes you Incorporeal.

[zook1shoe]

oh right, duh. still works w a couple tiny changes

[SorO_Lost]

oh right, duh. still works w a couple tiny changes

Well it's getting there. I've not really been home and sure enough you just had to pick something that uses a half dozen 2nd party sources on top of buried web updates.

Sword Spider (3.0 FR:MoF + 3.5 FR:PGtF:WebUpdate): Vermin and no Intelligence.
Dream Element: Inherited, accepts Vermin and becomes Elemental. No Wisdom, Incorporeal means no Str.
Need a Template here that accepts Elemental and turn you to an Outsider.
Living Wall: Acquired, accepts Outsider, becomes Undead. No Str/Dex.
Per Type Pyramid, Elemental can only only be replaced by Ooze, Plant, Construct, Outsider, & Undead. And of those, Living Wall only accepts Outsider.

The good news is Outsider isn't that hard to obtain, Half-Fiend/Celestial is out due to the requirement of 4 Int but in a pinch several Spells can temporarily grant the Type for the acquisition process of Living Wall. Some digging may help if you want the strong support of a Template through.

Also drop Bard for Sorcerer, if possible you'll want Eternity of Torture, Blindness/Deafness, and (Greater) Bestow Curse to follow up with the cursed Wizard trick of rendering the character helpless, generally fails to act if it weren't, sitting in hell, etc.

[sambojin]

@zook1shoe. Damn, I was hoping freedom of movement from the travel domain would override immobile for one round a day. That's pretty slow movement at 10' per day, keeping with the minimum stat theme. I guess you'd just have to travel by horse and cart or something instead. Animal friendship/speak with animals could sort out the control problems perhaps? It's not a playable character if it's immobile. But once you get outsider into the mix, it could be a record. Just not a playable record.

Maybe a level in Psion, with Psicrystal Affinity as a feat? Sure, you might not do much, but your crystal does heaps. It's actually better than you in every conceivable way. A wizard's familiar would work too. A raven, so it can talk (it's not limited in the language it knows, it's your choice, not necessarily one you know or can speak). The smaller the size of your character, the better. Your raven may have to drag you everywhere, and that's rather hard for a bird to do. Even if it has to peck you away from whatever is attaching you to the ground initially (big DR to not kill your character) or the ground itself (because you're incorporeal amongst other things), it could just work. Sure, you'd mostly be playing as a crystal or a talking bird, but that's still a completely legitimate roleplaying experience.

If CR17 remotely means character lvl17 in a templated thingo like this, your raven would kick a bit of arse as familiars go (it's levels, not wizard levels that determine the familiar's abilities. Pity psicrystals need actual psion/wilder levels, otherwise it'd be featastic for you with the real HD that crystals get). You could even see through the raven's eyes, it could talk to other ravens, you'd be like the raven king. Well, you'd actually be like some strange, shiny, smelly, colourful, ghostly looking thing that got picked up by a magpie for its nest, but still, completely legitimate roleplaying experience. Think of your raven familiar as your cohort, it's raven army as your followers, and build a bird empire.

Oooh, and Sorcerers begin play knowing spells. And get a familiar too. So you might not be able to cast any spells at the start of your adventuring career, but then you order your raven(s) to steal every godforsaken +charisma item on the planet. Then you win! Kind of.

Totally playable character......

[zook1shoe]

Teleportation would probably work.

[sambojin]

But who'd cast teleportation on a blob-mess-thing to bring it closer to their enemies?

Is the +0LA thing accurate? CR17, but +0LA? If you wanted to play this as a savage species monster templated player character? Because other than its immobility, complete lack of stats, and numerous other downsides, it's pretty powerful for a lvl 1 character. I'd call it closer to +9LA, just due to CR17 (using the potential spell level from CR as a +LA amount usually works for really weird stuff).

It's pretty irrelevant, but when doing dumb stuff, make it as dumb as humanly possible. 

[zook1shoe]

@ Soro
petitioner? Afk, so can't double check some of that stuff

@ sambojin
Give Wet Biscuit enough sorcerer levels and Cha items, he could easily cast it on himself.

no, he has LA n/a, changing to a sword spider bumps him up to 8 racial HD.
---
yeah, he wasn't made for a crazy neigh-useless PC, he was built for his world record crappiest stats