Author Topic: 5e Lockdown Build  (Read 5004 times)

Offline gabrion

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5e Lockdown Build
« on: April 29, 2017, 10:39:50 AM »
Being very new to 5e I've been reading through a fair amount of material trying to understand the key changes.  One thing that stood out to me early was that it looked like builds relying on multiple AOOs with rider effects don't work in 5e because AOOs take up your reaction and I didn't see an equivalent to combat expertise.  Then I noticed the Tunnel Fighter from Unearthed Arcana.  This solves the problem of multiple AOOs (though on a general note it seems like this whole concept is harder in 5e because the trigger for those AOOs is more limited, so it will come down to positioning I think).

The next problem was finding a reliable "lock down" mechanic.  What I've come across so far are the invocations, again from UA.  Three different ones, two of which set speed to zero and the other knocks prone.  Now we are talking.

The last piece of the puzzle is expanding reach so as to "threaten" more area.  Again, one of the invocations from UA does this, which might make it the better option.  Beyond that I haven't found a ton of options, though the mystic's giant growth looks nice (+5 to reach and +5 more for two power points).  Putting it together:

1 Fighter/2 Warlock/1 Mystic

Each turn you have to burn your bonus action for Tunnel fighting, but with giant growth going this should give you 20' reach on claw of acamar with unlimited AOOs, each of which reduces the target's speed to 0 until the end of your next turn if you hit. 

Thoughts?

Edit: Doing some more digging on this point I realize for a very simple version of this it's even easier to pull off.  Level 1 Human Variant Fighter can take Tunnel Fighting style and get the Sentinel feat.  It isn't perfect, but if the goal is to stand in front of the team and not let the bruiser bad guys through, it works (and even the reach is handled by just using a reach weapon).  Getting Polearm Master at 4 could also be an option with such a build as it would allow for stopping baddies further away (doesn't matter if the goal is just to keep them from reaching your back line and they intended to go through your reach area anyway, but does matter if they decide to swarm you and you use this to mitigate that by stopping baddies without reach in a place where they can't hit you).

Still, I think a good argument can be made for the basic build I listed above, especially when you take into account the Flail Mastery feat (another UA gift).  Opportunity Attacks with a flail force a STR save or they get knocked prone.  So with Claw of Acamar, anyone hit with an Opportunity Attack gets move speed reduced to 0 without a save, then also has to save or be prone (which, with a 0 movement speed for a round, means they can't get up). 
« Last Edit: April 29, 2017, 03:19:06 PM by gabrion »

Offline TenaciousJ

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Re: 5e Lockdown Build
« Reply #1 on: April 29, 2017, 04:24:31 PM »
I don't think there's a ruling yet on whether Claw of Acamar requires you to expend the pact magic slot to deal extra damage in order to reduce speed to 0 or not.  The RAI is unclear, though I think strictest RAW is the two effects are not dependent.

You have to be careful about extending your threatened range too much, or you give creatures too much room to move within your reach without provoking.  Opportunity attacks trigger when something leaves your reach, so if your reach is 20 feet with a weapon and the creature moves from adjacent to one square away, the only opportunity attack available to you is your unarmed strike.

The Knight fighter in Unearthed Arcana: Fighter has a good built-in lockdown package that lets you get around a lot of the current restrictions.  It has built-in extra opportunity attacks and extra triggers for opportunity attacks.  The marking mechanic also punishes creatures that still choose not to deal with you.
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Offline gabrion

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Re: 5e Lockdown Build
« Reply #2 on: April 29, 2017, 07:52:22 PM »
Thank you for the feedback.

I'm not sure I 100% follow on the issue with Claw of Acamar.  You mean it may be the intent that you have to expend a spell slot for the extra dmg in order for the rider (setting speed to 0) to take effect?  Hmm I could see a controversy around the comma here.  If I understand things correctly the UA stuff is playtest material, so I guess it's a check with DM thing.

I hear you about the reach thing.  When I started working on this idea I was sad to see that Opportunity Attacks seem much more rare in 5e, which makes the whole concept weaker because you CAN'T just extend reach as far as possible and trigger Opportunity attacks against such a wide variety of things as 3.5.  The only thing it does seem really good for is standing between you backline and the melee type bad guys in order to prevent them from reaching said backline.  In that case, the more important thing is that you don't position yourself so that your friends are inside your reach.

Thanks also for the knight reference, I hadn't seen it yet but it looks interesting.  I think it falls short though because it is still so limited by having to burn reaction.

Another interesting option I came across though is War Caster + Tunnel Fighting + Lightning Lure.  You really don't want too much reach with this one as the spell range is 15', so that's probably what you'll shoot for (maybe just hold a reach weapon and get the +5 from giant growth).  Now with this you have to pump a casting stat as well since Lightning Lure has a save, but the effect is pretty comedic.  Anyone who tries to move more that 15' from you provokes an Opportunity Attack, which you used to cast lightning lure and jerk them back.  Available as many times as you need thanks to tunnel fighting (though I have no idea what the rules are about pulling two creatures into the same space, which could be a problem).


Offline gabrion

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Re: 5e Lockdown Build
« Reply #3 on: April 29, 2017, 08:47:58 PM »
Another take (probably suboptimal, but humorous in my opinion) is a warlock frustrated enough with melee that he decided to take countermeasures.  He picked up a level of fighter for tunnel fighting and somehow came up with a way to get war caster and polearm master.  Already having eldritch blast and repelling blast, he went out to adventure.  Of course since he poses a threat as a warlock, the melee minions all came for him.  Imagine their surprise...

Offline TenaciousJ

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Re: 5e Lockdown Build
« Reply #4 on: April 29, 2017, 09:09:55 PM »
Quote
Thanks also for the knight reference, I hadn't seen it yet but it looks interesting.  I think it falls short though because it is still so limited by having to burn reaction.

Emphasis on this ability:

Quote from: UA: Fighter - Implacable Mark
If a target marked by you is within 5 feet of you on its turn and it moves at least 1 foot or makes an attack that suffers disadvantage from this feature, you can make one melee weapon attack against it using your reaction. This attack roll has advantage, and if it hits, the attack’s weapon deals extra damage to the target equal to your fighter level.
You can make this special attack even if you have already expended your reaction this round, but not if you have already used your reaction this turn. You can make this attack three times, and you regain all expended uses of it when you finish a short or long rest.

That's the level 3 ability.  It helps your lockdown quite a bit because you place that mark every time you hit with your weapon.  Each monster gets its own turn, so you gain some extra lockdown ability and a new way to trigger off-turn attacks that lockdown.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2017, 09:11:58 PM by TenaciousJ »
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Offline gabrion

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Re: 5e Lockdown Build
« Reply #5 on: April 30, 2017, 12:24:24 PM »
Quote
Thanks also for the knight reference, I hadn't seen it yet but it looks interesting.  I think it falls short though because it is still so limited by having to burn reaction.

Emphasis on this ability:

Quote from: UA: Fighter - Implacable Mark
If a target marked by you is within 5 feet of you on its turn and it moves at least 1 foot or makes an attack that suffers disadvantage from this feature, you can make one melee weapon attack against it using your reaction. This attack roll has advantage, and if it hits, the attack’s weapon deals extra damage to the target equal to your fighter level.
You can make this special attack even if you have already expended your reaction this round, but not if you have already used your reaction this turn. You can make this attack three times, and you regain all expended uses of it when you finish a short or long rest.

That's the level 3 ability.  It helps your lockdown quite a bit because you place that mark every time you hit with your weapon.  Each monster gets its own turn, so you gain some extra lockdown ability and a new way to trigger off-turn attacks that lockdown.

Thanks again.  On first pass I did miss/fail to understand the distinction being made between turn (the specific enemy in question's turn if I understand it correctly now) vs round.  Even so the knight doesn't seem overly strong because targets need to be marked AND they have to be within 5 ft to trigger implacable mark.  The first part (marking) is easier if you have a reach weapon, but the second part is tough if you are trying to build to be the tank who keeps the melee enemies occupied.  Some of the gimmicks above seem more reliable and versatile if your primary job is to keep melee mobs from rushing your back line. 

Whether doing tunnel fighting with claw of acamar + flair mastery or even the hilarious (to me at least) war cast + lightning lure, you can effectively create a 30' wide (or maybe 20' if you don't have that extra 5' of reach) choke point through which enemies can't pass.