Min/Max Boards

Meta Board => Retired PbP Games => Archive => [Tome] Frozen Night => Topic started by: sirpercival on January 31, 2013, 07:39:37 AM

Title: OOOOO OOOOO CCCCCC
Post by: sirpercival on January 31, 2013, 07:39:37 AM

So, phae, do I use the normal chargen rules to make the cohort, or something more modest?

Title: Re: OOOOO OOOOO CCCCCC
Post by: phaedrusxy on January 31, 2013, 10:50:05 AM

The normal rules are fine.

Title: Re: OOOOO OOOOO CCCCCC
Post by: sirpercival on February 01, 2013, 03:52:50 PM

And all the normal chargen from FoPP, item rules, etc?  Are we on the Wish economy?

Title: Re: OOOOO OOOOO CCCCCC
Post by: phaedrusxy on February 01, 2013, 04:32:14 PM

Quote from: sirpercival on February 01, 2013, 03:52:50 PM

And all the normal chargen from FoPP, item rules, etc?  Are we on the Wish economy?

Yes, but for totally different reasons. :D

Title: Re: OOOOO OOOOO CCCCCC
Post by: sirpercival on February 01, 2013, 04:32:54 PM

Quote from: phaedrusxy on February 01, 2013, 04:32:14 PM

Quote from: sirpercival on February 01, 2013, 03:52:50 PM

And all the normal chargen from FoPP, item rules, etc?  Are we on the Wish economy?

Yes, but for totally different reasons. :D

  :ninja

Title: Re: OOOOO OOOOO CCCCCC
Post by: sirpercival on February 01, 2013, 04:45:52 PM

Double postitude!

How do you feel about the [Metamagic] feats in this post (http://tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?p=67582&sid=711dad1ed3866dff4f827027de336d92#67582)?  Specifically I'm looking at Bottomless, Timeless, and Stealth Magic.

Title: Re: OOOOO OOOOO CCCCCC
Post by: phaedrusxy on February 01, 2013, 06:14:59 PM

Timeless is OK as-is. So is Stealth Magic. I don't like the 3rd level ability of Bottomless Magic. That basically gives you your full spell slot capacity for every fight, as long as you have a bit of time between to replenish them. If I wanted to use a recharge magic variant, I would. :P

If we limit that to 1x/day period (instead of unlimited times per day, as it sounds like it is right now), I'm OK with the feat.

Title: Re: OOOOO OOOOO CCCCCC
Post by: sirpercival on February 01, 2013, 06:44:21 PM

Quote from: phaedrusxy on February 01, 2013, 06:14:59 PM

Timeless is OK as-is. So is Stealth Magic. I don't like the 3rd level ability of Bottomless Magic. That basically gives you your full spell slot capacity for every fight, as long as you have a bit of time between to replenish them. If I wanted to use a recharge magic variant, I would. :P

If we limit that to 1x/day period (instead of unlimited times per day, as it sounds like it is right now), I'm OK with the feat.

  Perfect.

Title: Re: OOOOO OOOOO CCCCCC
Post by: phaedrusxy on February 01, 2013, 10:46:50 PM

Alternatively, you could exchange that for a Reserve feat-like function.

Title: Re: OOOOO OOOOO CCCCCC
Post by: sirpercival on February 02, 2013, 07:04:40 AM

Quote from: phaedrusxy on February 01, 2013, 10:46:50 PM

Alternatively, you could exchange that for a Reserve feat-like function.

Honestly Bottomless Magic is less interesting to me than the other two.  I'm not gonna sweat it.  :)  I really like the free extend and silent.

Title: Re: OOOOO OOOOO CCCCCC
Post by: chris` on February 03, 2013, 03:17:47 AM

How are you handling scroll costs for purposes of having scribed additional spells into a spellbook? Specifically, the cost of practically any scroll is well under the minor item threshold, making it practically free. Moreover, since the scrolls can be accessed with a wish, archivists could access a fairly eclectic range of divine scrolls (you know, off-list stuff).

If you just want me to be reasonable about it, give me a general idea of what you would consider reasonable, and if you don't want to worry about an archivist with spells from five different spell lists then let me know and I'll avoid it entirely.

Finally, are there any prestige classes that I should avoid? The overall power level seems fairly high in here (as usual for Tome games) but I've been having some trouble with option overload and am trying to narrow down ideas.

Title: Re: OOOOO OOOOO CCCCCC
Post by: Concerned Ninja Citizen on February 03, 2013, 05:14:02 AM

Quote from: phaedrusxy on February 01, 2013, 04:32:14 PM

Quote from: sirpercival on February 01, 2013, 03:52:50 PM

And all the normal chargen from FoPP, item rules, etc?  Are we on the Wish economy?

Yes, but for totally different reasons. :D

Planar Binding accesses the Wish economy via Efreets, right? My character can do that at our current level.

I wasn't planning to actually do it in game but it could serve as a pretext for our WE access if we needed one...

Spell list wise, I think the only limit was no bargain hunting (that is, no getting spells at artificially low levels via obscure lists like Trapsmith for lv1 Haste.)   

Title: Re: OOOOO OOOOO CCCCCC
Post by: phaedrusxy on February 03, 2013, 10:24:43 AM

Quote from: chris` on February 03, 2013, 03:17:47 AM

How are you handling scroll costs for purposes of having scribed additional spells into a spellbook? Specifically, the cost of practically any scroll is well under the minor item threshold, making it practically free. Moreover, since the scrolls can be accessed with a wish, archivists could access a fairly eclectic range of divine scrolls (you know, off-list stuff).

If you just want me to be reasonable about it, give me a general idea of what you would consider reasonable, and if you don't want to worry about an archivist with spells from five different spell lists then let me know and I'll avoid it entirely.

Finally, are there any prestige classes that I should avoid? The overall power level seems fairly high in here (as usual for Tome games) but I've been having some trouble with option overload and am trying to narrow down ideas.

I'm fine with you knowing just about any spells you want, in general. If it actually appears on a divine spell list, it should be available. Rare/special "tricks" like divine bards might not be, unless there is some plausible explanation that you want to write into your backstory (or for the Exiled group in general). Particularly broken things I might veto individually, like maybe that crazy Slime Wave spell from Masters of the Wild that does Con damage to an area, and does more to larger creatures... Things like Kelpstrand will have their DCs changed to the normal formula we're using for everything (10+1/2 ECL + casting stat), or will at least be modified to work like something more reasonable (like say Evard's Black Tentacles).

As far as power level, yeah, it's pretty high. So most likely anything will be OK. If you think it's pushing the limit, let me know what you're thinking before you sink too much effort into it. :)

Quote from: Concerned Ninja Citizen on February 03, 2013, 05:14:02 AM

Quote from: phaedrusxy on February 01, 2013, 04:32:14 PM

Quote from: sirpercival on February 01, 2013, 03:52:50 PM

And all the normal chargen from FoPP, item rules, etc?  Are we on the Wish economy?

Yes, but for totally different reasons. :D

Planar Binding accesses the Wish economy via Efreets, right? My character can do that at our current level.

I wasn't planning to actually do it in game but it could serve as a pretext for our WE access if we needed one...

Spell list wise, I think the only limit was no bargain hunting (that is, no getting spells at artificially low levels via obscure lists like Trapsmith for lv1 Haste.)   

Wish/item access will basically be via "DM fiat". You guys are the cream of the crop of "La Resistance", and they'll just supply you with what you need/request (within reason, i.e. according to the magic item chart :P ). I'd rather not actually do the cheesiness of chain-binding genies... even if it is theoretically possible.

I think I mentioned this, but I don't remember if I put it into the "official" rules, but access to the outer planes has been cut off for centuries. I think I'll say the Inner and Transitive Planes are still available, though (and any summoning spells will be bringing things from there, instead of the outer planes, but unchanged otherwise).

Title: Re: OOOOO OOOOO CCCCCC
Post by: sirpercival on February 03, 2013, 11:50:50 AM

Just realized, if I want a cohort I have to find a feat slot for it... Hm... :(

Title: Re: OOOOO OOOOO CCCCCC
Post by: MetroMagic on February 05, 2013, 05:04:16 AM

Phae - four topics for you! EDITED, oops, can't count at this hour.

---

Looking at items for Blisss, I run into this problem: His natural form is water, so with past DMs he held his items with his natural ability that has now been named Liquid Form, and simply merged them into himself. It's neither polymorph nor shapechange though it's like them; it's significantly more specific and limited in what shapes he can take, but more thorough and powerful in what happens when he takes a form. The most important difference, about this question, is: his magic items still work when merged. This is contrary to your general rules about polymorph, so the question is, do his magic items work?

I didn't have this in the writeup explicitly previously because it wasn't an issue for the DMs - for example Quillwraith was fine with it when I raised the question. Here is the writeup I added to the "One With Its Environment" ability that deals with the Liquid Form differences for Glaciadragons - seemed like the right place to put it:

"The Glaciadragon may hold its Magic Items by merging them using Liquid Form. For Glaciadragons, holding any Magic Item would be difficult, if not impossible, in their natural watery form, even more so if they change back and forth between forms as they do frequently. The Glaciadragon’s Magic Items retain their functions when merged into any form the Glaciadragon may take using Liquid Form provided that the particular function of the Magic Item is not dependent on its physical shape. Two examples: For a +1 sword with a function when held, the d6 die roll for slashing damage does not apply to attacks when the sword is merged, but the +1 and the held function apply. For a +1 Ghostward suit of armor, the AC bonus of the physical suit does not apply when merged, but the +1 and Ghostward do apply. Other items are decided on a case basis. Glaciadragons commonly use Liquid Form to change into their own form but with the Magic Item held by merging it."

Are you OK with this? Obviously, what I do about items depends a lot on how this will work.

I offered to Quillwraith that Blisss could have no magic items, and the same applies for your game - we'd work something else out. Or not... if he's underpowered for lack of items, so be it.

---

Next topic: I saw the "no off-brand spell lists to power up items with spells at lower levels than usual".

Blisss can learn spells from any list; what about learning spells from those lists to power up his slots? FYI, he can know 2 spells of 0-3 and 1 at 4th so his personal list is very small, though he can spam them every 5 minutes/encounter.

Before you decide I'll confess to the wild idea here: Greater Dispel from Trapsmith, plus Bottomless Metamagic, produces at-will Greater Dispel? It's an idea. Of course with the power level of some of the other characters in the party we may have something like this already, so maybe it's not a big deal.

---

I saw the No Flaws. In Blisss' most recent incarnation I took 2 Flaws and spent them on buying the 2 Feats needed for Cure Light Wounds at will. Why? Because the character would only learn and take healing spells otherwise, shutting down the whole Blue Mage flexibility thing - Blisss is just that kind of guy; he wouldn't let others die around him when he could save them just by only learning one type of spell. And the Flaws were flavorful.

The 2 Feats:
Attune Node, Improved Attune Node (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2626.msg30639) to Positive Plane Ability: Infusion, Cure Light Wounds (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2626.msg30446) at will as Swift Action (DC15, +4 1/2CL +2 Int = +6, or healing is halved)

The 2 Flaws:
Free Spirited (http://realmshelps.net/cgi-bin/featbox.pl?feat=Free-Spirited) Effective weight of gear is doubled, armor check penalties doubled/tripled swimming

Cute Things Lover (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Cute_Things_Lover_%283.5e_Flaw%29) WILL Save against cute creatures, DC 15 + the creature's CHA mod, or Fascinated for 1 round plus the creature's CHA mod

Are you OK with this?

While on this general subject, I had two traits; the one I would drop is this:

"Iron Liver (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Iron_Liver_%283.5e_Trait%29)
Benefit: Immune to alcohol's detrimental effects
Drawback: -1 on Fortitude saves against any other recreational drug
Blisss flavor: He stayed in the Inn for years, likes water, drank what liquids there were, didn’t know some had alcohol, didn’t notice. Other recreational drugs? Never met any, not interested. Alcohol isn’t a recreational drug for him anyway – for him, it’s pretty much just like water, does nothing whatsoever. Amusing roleplay."

Not a big deal to drop it, but it's flavorful, and seems like not a big deal to keep it. What do you think?

---

The whole Blue Mage thing was expanded by Blisss carrying a small library of spells on scrolls so he could un-learn a spell he knows, cast one on himself from a scroll and learn it thereby, use it for a while, and then switch back. He then re-writes the scrolls to keep the library replenished so he can switch what he knows in the future. Remember he can only know 9 spells total at any given time: 2 0, 2 1st, 2 2nd, 2 3rd, 1 4th so this was a way to expand his repertoire.

The way you play them, scrolls are used to transmit knowledge. Would they still work for him to learn simply by reading in lieu of a spell cast on himself, since that's in general how a Blue Mage learns them? Could he replace one spell with another by simply reading the scroll, and if so would the spell go away or would the scroll still be intact? That, of course, would give him a lot more flexibility to switch spells as desired.

Title: Re: OOOOO OOOOO CCCCCC
Post by: phaedrusxy on February 05, 2013, 10:23:18 AM

1) it's fine to have the items function as you suggested. although the spells are changed, some creature abilities will not be.

2) At will greater dispel is OK.

3) Your team can have unlimited low level wands, and Bliss can change his spells known easily. So I don't see this as a problem. So no, no flaws. Of course feel free to RP them if you want, but we won't enforce mechanical effects.

4) Sure, keep the trait.

5) Yes, he can keep scrolls to swap out spells known. They aren't consumed as they typically are in a "normal" game, either. They are mundane writings that impart magical knowledge. I have seen suggestions to make scrolls of 4th+ level above the wish economy, but haven't decided to implement that yet...

Title: Re: OOOOO OOOOO CCCCCC
Post by: sirpercival on February 05, 2013, 10:58:52 AM

Phae, how do you feel about this feat (http://dnd-wiki.org/wiki/Summon_the_Legion_(3.5e_Feat))?  I'm not interested in the followers at this point.

Title: Re: OOOOO OOOOO CCCCCC
Post by: phaedrusxy on February 05, 2013, 11:20:56 AM

Quote from: sirpercival on February 05, 2013, 10:58:52 AM

Phae, how do you feel about this feat (http://dnd-wiki.org/wiki/Summon_the_Legion_(3.5e_Feat))?  I'm not interested in the followers at this point.

I think it needs to be toned down...

This is kind of like a combination of the Summon Elemental reserve feat and Leadership. However, since you get to customize the creatures you summon, and they are more powerful, I think you should have to actually spend the spellslots, rather than just have them. To summon a creature using this, you'll have to spend spellslot of at least half their CR (rounded up), but it lasts indefinitely and dismissing them is a free action.

Due to the altered cosmology of this game, creatures from the outer planes won't generally be available, unless they could be plausibly found on the material, inner, or transitive planes. However, since we're not using LA, let's use either Oslecamo's monster classes, or CR in the case of where one doesn't exist (with adjustments to be made for problematic creatures as needed). For very low LA/CR creatures, like genasi, we might just use them as-is with no LA and no RHD.

Is this too much nerfing?

Title: Re: OOOOO OOOOO CCCCCC
Post by: sirpercival on February 05, 2013, 11:45:20 AM

Quote from: phaedrusxy on February 05, 2013, 11:20:56 AM

Quote from: sirpercival on February 05, 2013, 10:58:52 AM

Phae, how do you feel about this feat (http://dnd-wiki.org/wiki/Summon_the_Legion_(3.5e_Feat))?  I'm not interested in the followers at this point.

Yeah, I guess that would be OK... /sigh  :P

Since this is kind of like a combination of the Summon Elemental reserve feat and Leadership, let's just make it more explicitly like that. To summon a creature using this, you need to have an available spellslot of at least half their CR (rounded up).

Also, due to the altered cosmology of this game, creatures from the outer planes won't generally be available, unless they could be plausibly found on the material, inner, or transitive planes. However, since we're not using LA, let's use either Oslecamo's monster classes, or CR in the case of where one doesn't exist (with adjustments to be made for problematic creatures as needed).

Sound reasonable? It's still pretty nuts... It basically turns you into the Angel Summoner (https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&ved=0CDEQtwIwAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DzFuMpYTyRjw&ei=ljERUdPXGYrx0wGEr4GQDA&usg=AFQjCNF60Iqk515ecIQlBfAovL5pMNFcrA&bvm=bv.41867550,d.dmQ)... for the price of a feat. :P I'm tempted to make you spend the spellslot used to summon your cohort... This is still a great feat, even with that "limitation"...

OK, so I'm not sure how this will work.  I can cast 5th-level spells, but I only know SM I and III.  I was going to build a specific cohort and then use the calling thing to keep us together if we get separated... I'm not trying to be the Angel Summoner (nor the BMX bandit), but I figured that feat was more interesting than taking 3.5 Leadership.  I was figuring to do an inner-planes planetouched of some kind, then straight into Powerbard.

Title: Re: OOOOO OOOOO CCCCCC
Post by: phaedrusxy on February 05, 2013, 11:48:07 AM

Quote from: sirpercival on February 05, 2013, 11:45:20 AM

Quote from: phaedrusxy on February 05, 2013, 11:20:56 AM

Quote from: sirpercival on February 05, 2013, 10:58:52 AM

Phae, how do you feel about this feat (http://dnd-wiki.org/wiki/Summon_the_Legion_(3.5e_Feat))?  I'm not interested in the followers at this point.

Yeah, I guess that would be OK... /sigh  :P

Since this is kind of like a combination of the Summon Elemental reserve feat and Leadership, let's just make it more explicitly like that. To summon a creature using this, you need to have an available spellslot of at least half their CR (rounded up).

Also, due to the altered cosmology of this game, creatures from the outer planes won't generally be available, unless they could be plausibly found on the material, inner, or transitive planes. However, since we're not using LA, let's use either Oslecamo's monster classes, or CR in the case of where one doesn't exist (with adjustments to be made for problematic creatures as needed).

Sound reasonable? It's still pretty nuts... It basically turns you into the Angel Summoner (https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&ved=0CDEQtwIwAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DzFuMpYTyRjw&ei=ljERUdPXGYrx0wGEr4GQDA&usg=AFQjCNF60Iqk515ecIQlBfAovL5pMNFcrA&bvm=bv.41867550,d.dmQ)... for the price of a feat. :P I'm tempted to make you spend the spellslot used to summon your cohort... This is still a great feat, even with that "limitation"...

OK, so I'm not sure how this will work.  I can cast 5th-level spells, but I only know SM I and III.  I was going to build a specific cohort and then use the calling thing to keep us together if we get separated... I'm not trying to be the Angel Summoner (nor the BMX bandit), but I figured that feat was more interesting than taking 3.5 Leadership.  I was figuring to do an inner-planes planetouched of some kind, then straight into Powerbard.

I wasn't thinking you'd need to specifically know SM IV (or higher) to summon a CR 8 cohort (for example). Just burn a 4th level slot. So my idea is to basically make this more like the druid's spontaneous summoning + Leadership, rather than a reserve feat.

Edit: I guess given that you can get Greater Teleport at will for a feat, this isn't that bad, but it's still Leadership+, and Leadership is kind of at the top of the bar as far as feats go, IMO... although some Tome feats are probably equally powerful (ignoring the Tome undead creation feats, which are crazy).

Title: Re: OOOOO OOOOO CCCCCC
Post by: sirpercival on February 05, 2013, 12:31:53 PM

Oooh, ok.

So does that mean I get to make a couple different cohort versions?  And then call them as necessary?  :D :D :D

Title: Re: OOOOO OOOOO CCCCCC
Post by: phaedrusxy on February 05, 2013, 02:09:17 PM

Quote from: sirpercival on February 05, 2013, 12:31:53 PM

Oooh, ok.

So does that mean I get to make a couple different cohort versions?  And then call them as necessary?  :D :D :D

If you want to give up followers and instead have multiple cohorts for this, we can say you get a number equal to your unmodified charisma modifier, as the tome undead creation feats do, I guess...

Still let's limit it to one at a time, though.

Title: Re: OOOOO OOOOO CCCCCC
Post by: sirpercival on February 05, 2013, 03:20:43 PM

Quote from: phaedrusxy on February 05, 2013, 02:09:17 PM

Quote from: sirpercival on February 05, 2013, 12:31:53 PM

Oooh, ok.

So does that mean I get to make a couple different cohort versions?  And then call them as necessary?  :D :D :D

If you want to give up followers and instead have multiple cohorts for this, we can say you get a number equal to your unmodified charisma modifier, as the tome undead creation feats do, I guess...

Still let's limit it to one at a time, though.

Sounds perfect.  That lets me try out a few different things at different times.

Title: Re: OOOOO OOOOO CCCCCC
Post by: phaedrusxy on February 05, 2013, 03:22:19 PM

Quote from: sirpercival on February 05, 2013, 03:20:43 PM

Quote from: phaedrusxy on February 05, 2013, 02:09:17 PM

Quote from: sirpercival on February 05, 2013, 12:31:53 PM

Oooh, ok.

So does that mean I get to make a couple different cohort versions?  And then call them as necessary?  :D :D :D

If you want to give up followers and instead have multiple cohorts for this, we can say you get a number equal to your unmodified charisma modifier, as the tome undead creation feats do, I guess...

Still let's limit it to one at a time, though.

Sounds perfect.  That lets me try out a few different things at different times.

Just what you need: an excuse to build more characters. :P

Title: Re: OOOOO OOOOO CCCCCC
Post by: sirpercival on February 05, 2013, 03:30:17 PM

Quote from: phaedrusxy on February 05, 2013, 03:22:19 PM

Quote from: sirpercival on February 05, 2013, 03:20:43 PM

Quote from: phaedrusxy on February 05, 2013, 02:09:17 PM

Quote from: sirpercival on February 05, 2013, 12:31:53 PM

Oooh, ok.

So does that mean I get to make a couple different cohort versions?  And then call them as necessary?  :D :D :D

If you want to give up followers and instead have multiple cohorts for this, we can say you get a number equal to your unmodified charisma modifier, as the tome undead creation feats do, I guess...

Still let's limit it to one at a time, though.

Sounds perfect.  That lets me try out a few different things at different times.

Just what you need: an excuse to build more characters. :P

Well, yes.  The problem is that I never get to use all the ideas I have.  This should (at least partially) help with that.

Title: Re: OOOOO OOOOO CCCCCC
Post by: MetroMagic on February 05, 2013, 10:00:18 PM

Cool. Definitely workable, thanks. I’ll have to figure out what to do so he can spam healing without those feats – the fact that people in this party can heal themselves is not really relevant to the choices Blisss would make as he grew up – but the flexibility with magic items should cover it.

As to scrolls and learning from them flexibly – I’ve got an idea to try on you: Rather than listing an exhaustive list… which would be advantageous to do but much too exhausting!... I’ll have a short starter list, and the assumption that Blisss has collected a scroll of all the common spells at one time or another over the past thousands of years he’s been watching, dreaming, and helping those around him. What are the common spells? Maybe whatever is in d20SRD, or D&DWiki. Or some other source(s), whatever. Then there are the uncommon and rare spells, ones the players know are in other sources but Blisss may not have run across; he’d have a percentile chance to have one of those, or maybe has to make a DC on Knowledge Arcana that gets more difficult with the Spell Level. So it’s pretty simple: He has a core list, and whenever he wants to learn something not on the core list, he checks his spell library and it’s there… or not.

As backstory that gives him a great incentive to go to the library, go adventuring, hang out with dangerous people: because it gives him access to new spellbooks and spell experiences. If he does find a spellbook he can check it for new things, or simply if someone hits him with a spell he’s never experienced, he has a chance of writing it down and adding a new scroll to his library. What he values in his hoard are new ways to be helpful, so practically any spell is of interest – if it’s helpful, good; if it’s harmful, good to be ready to counterspell it.

I’m thinking about taking him in the direction of magic defender, someone who knows how to nullify harmful magical stuff to keep his friends safe. Definitely in character!!

What do you think of the scroll library idea to save copy/pasting a ridiculously long list? And the mechanism? Suggestions?

Title: Re: OOOOO OOOOO CCCCCC
Post by: phaedrusxy on February 05, 2013, 10:22:53 PM

I like the idea. I'll have to think about a mechanism.  :D

Title: Re: OOOOO OOOOO CCCCCC
Post by: Concerned Ninja Citizen on February 07, 2013, 06:25:29 AM

How relevant is Lucid Dreaming and its associated mechanics going to be to this campaign? It seems to be an integral part of the FoPP campaign but will this be similar?

Title: Re: OOOOO OOOOO CCCCCC
Post by: phaedrusxy on February 07, 2013, 03:29:15 PM

Quote from: Concerned Ninja Citizen on February 07, 2013, 06:25:29 AM

How relevant is Lucid Dreaming and its associated mechanics going to be to this campaign? It seems to be an integral part of the FoPP campaign but will this be similar?

Not for what I have planned at the moment, but of course feel free to use it if you want. :P

Title: Re: OOOOO OOOOO CCCCCC
Post by: chris` on February 07, 2013, 04:11:36 PM

Are item familiars allowed? If so, are they allowed to grant an insight bonus to a skill (since the bonus is untyped as written)?

Noticing some weird aspects of the houserules. Specifically, the changes to bonus stacking seem to make party buffing a much weaker option for full casters, since a lot of the good party buffs rely on stacking luck and other bonuses (clerics, looking at you), while most self-buffing and offensive strategies do not rely on this. Intended?

Anyway, was thinking a very party-buff-focused archivist build with an inbuffatrix cohort, but am probably going to have to rethink that.

Title: Re: OOOOO OOOOO CCCCCC
Post by: Concerned Ninja Citizen on February 07, 2013, 04:24:04 PM

Quote from: phaedrusxy on February 07, 2013, 03:29:15 PM

Quote from: Concerned Ninja Citizen on February 07, 2013, 06:25:29 AM

How relevant is Lucid Dreaming and its associated mechanics going to be to this campaign? It seems to be an integral part of the FoPP campaign but will this be similar?

Not for what I have planned at the moment, but of course feel free to use it if you want. :P

I ask because I've been thinking about alternate character options. I love the Historian class but in order for me to play one in this game, the port needs finishing and that's a significant amount of work for SirP, the busiest guy on the forum. I really don't want to either put more stress on him or delay the game because I'm insisting on playing something that's not ready.

So in looking for the current GitP contest chat thread in order to comment on the Astronomer, I ran across the Extractor (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=14312272), a class so made of awesome I am convinced it caused severe awesome shortages.

It uses the Lucid Dreaming system, hence my question.

Even if that's not going to be a focus of the campaign I might still be interested in switching to Extractor if that's something that works with the game and the party.

Title: Re: OOOOO OOOOO CCCCCC
Post by: sirpercival on February 07, 2013, 04:46:35 PM

Have an updated version of Extractor (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=8704.0).  :D

Title: Re: OOOOO OOOOO CCCCCC
Post by: Concerned Ninja Citizen on February 07, 2013, 04:48:24 PM

That's what I get for not reading the headings in your Index. I didn't realize Incarnum had its own section. Thanks.

Would you mind if I wrote some Extractor specific feats ([Incarnum] and/or [Inspiration] feats probably)?

Title: Re: OOOOO OOOOO CCCCCC
Post by: phaedrusxy on February 07, 2013, 04:52:56 PM

Quote from: chris` on February 07, 2013, 04:11:36 PM

Are item familiars allowed? If so, are they allowed to grant an insight bonus to a skill (since the bonus is untyped as written)?

I think that should be OK.

Quote

Noticing some weird aspects of the houserules. Specifically, the changes to bonus stacking seem to make party buffing a much weaker option for full casters, since a lot of the good party buffs rely on stacking luck and other bonuses (clerics, looking at you), while most self-buffing and offensive strategies do not rely on this. Intended?

Yes and no. Yes in that I intended to nerf the ability to stack a dozen weak buffs to get a gigantic overall effect. No in that I don't want to specifically nerf party bufffing over self-buffing (and is that really the case? I also made the modified polymorph spell chain all castable on party mates).

Quote

Anyway, was thinking a very party-buff-focused archivist build with an inbuffatrix cohort, but am probably going to have to rethink that.

I don't see why that still won't work, really (focusing on party-buffing, anyway). What specifically do my houserules mess up that you planned to use?

Quote from: Concerned Ninja Citizen on February 07, 2013, 04:24:04 PM

Quote from: phaedrusxy on February 07, 2013, 03:29:15 PM

Quote from: Concerned Ninja Citizen on February 07, 2013, 06:25:29 AM

How relevant is Lucid Dreaming and its associated mechanics going to be to this campaign? It seems to be an integral part of the FoPP campaign but will this be similar?

Not for what I have planned at the moment, but of course feel free to use it if you want. :P

I ask because I've been thinking about alternate character options. I love the Historian class but in order for me to play one in this game, the port needs finishing and that's a significant amount of work for SirP, the busiest guy on the forum. I really don't want to either put more stress on him or delay the game because I'm insisting on playing something that's not ready.

So in looking for the current GitP contest chat thread in order to comment on the Astronomer, I ran across the Extractor (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=14312272), a class so made of awesome I am convinced it caused severe awesome shortages.

It uses the Lucid Dreaming system, hence my question.

Even if that's not going to be a focus of the campaign I might still be interested in switching to Extractor if that's something that works with the game and the party.

Yes, the Extractor should work fine. I like the class (of course... :P ), and I can certainly find ways to use it in the plot.

Title: Re: OOOOO OOOOO CCCCCC
Post by: Concerned Ninja Citizen on February 07, 2013, 04:59:37 PM

Cool. I'll start building one and see if it grabs me then. Race probably Azurin + Lesser Bytopian from that ever popular set of planetouched templates.

Abilities thus:

(click to show/hide)

+2 Con, +2 Wis, -2 Str

Resourceful (Ex)
Planetouched from Bytopia are generally diligent, if nothing else, and can make the most out of any situation if they simply try hard enough. Once per day per point of Constitution modifier, when the Planetouched has failed a skill or ability check, they may choose to negate that result and reroll, this time adding their constitution bonus to the roll on top of any other modifiers.

Title: Re: OOOOO OOOOO CCCCCC
Post by: sirpercival on February 07, 2013, 05:13:16 PM

I'm so glad that I'll get to see Extractor taken through its paces!!

Title: Re: OOOOO OOOOO CCCCCC
Post by: phaedrusxy on February 07, 2013, 05:13:33 PM

Quote from: Concerned Ninja Citizen on February 07, 2013, 04:59:37 PM

Cool. I'll start building one and see if it grabs me then. Race probably Azurin + Lesser Bytopian from that ever popular set of planetouched templates.

Abilities thus:

(click to show/hide)

+2 Con, +2 Wis, -2 Str

Resourceful (Ex)
Planetouched from Bytopia are generally diligent, if nothing else, and can make the most out of any situation if they simply try hard enough. Once per day per point of Constitution modifier, when the Planetouched has failed a skill or ability check, they may choose to negate that result and reroll, this time adding their constitution bonus to the roll on top of any other modifiers.

That's fine. By the way, did you see my Mindpirate (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=6900.0) class? And Awakened Dreamer (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=7281.0) PrC? :P

Title: Re: OOOOO OOOOO CCCCCC
Post by: chris` on February 07, 2013, 05:41:16 PM

Quote from: phaedrusxy on February 07, 2013, 04:52:56 PM

I think that should be OK.

Okay, cool. That should solve the main party buffing hole (specifically spell slot efficiency).

Quote from: phaedrusxy on February 07, 2013, 04:52:56 PM

Yes and no. Yes in that I intended to nerf the ability to stack a dozen weak buffs to get a gigantic overall effect. No in that I don't want to specifically nerf party bufffing over self-buffing (and is that really the case? I also made the modified polymorph spell chain all castable on party mates).

Okay, so in terms of game design principles I think that limiting the possible number of stackable bonus types is awesome (we did the same thing when designing Legend). The problem is spell slot efficiency; basically, if you have a large number (n > 2) of party members, you have to rely on area effects and multiple-target effects or simply run out of spell slots before you run out of good buffs to cast. Since most area/multiple-target buffs offer a bunch of little bonuses, stacking restrictions make this strategy very difficult.

On the other hand, self-buffing (as any kind of caster, although clerics get this slightly more than arcanists do) tends to revolve around personal-range and single uses of touch/target spells, so the spell slot efficiency of these spells is very high. Moreover, these spells are typically more powerful per spell slot (in terms of bonuses, immunities given, etc), so you get more out of a smaller number of spells and don't have to worry about stacking for the most part.

Quote from: phaedrusxy on February 07, 2013, 04:52:56 PM

Anyway, was thinking a very party-buff-focused archivist build with an inbuffatrix cohort, but am probably going to have to rethink that.

I don't see why that still won't work, really (focusing on party-buffing, anyway). What specifically do my houserules mess up that you planned to use?[/quote]

I think that I can pull it off with an item familiar; the main difficulty is just spell slot efficiency if I'm trying to buff the whole party with things other than the standard luck/morale/insight stack of area effect bonuses to attack and saves. With the item familiar, I'll probably end up doing a reach/chain/persist combination (split between incantatrix and DMM) on a bunch of touch-range buffs, jack up caster levels on the buffs and save the rest of my spell slots for offense and battlefield control.

Speaking of which, are any of you planning on casting short-duration buffs that would benefit from being persisted?

Title: Re: OOOOO OOOOO CCCCCC
Post by: sirpercival on February 07, 2013, 05:52:59 PM

To avoid overlap, here's Phineas's current class list, with known spells *'d.

(click to show/hide)

0th - All sorc list on class list, known: Amanuensis, Mage Hand, Prestedigitation, Read Magic, Silent Portal
1st - Summon Monster I*, Magecraft*, Alibi*, Sleep*, Obscuring Mist^Bloodline, Arcane Mark
2nd - Eagle's Splendor*, Mirror Image*, Wings of Cover*, Spymaster's Coin*, Darkness^Bloodline, Blink, Master's Touch
3rd - Dimension Step*, Clairaudience/Clairvoyance*, Summon Monster III*, Nondetection^Bloodline, Fly, Disobedience, Major Image
4th - Friendly Fire*, Dimension Door*, Black Tentacles^Bloodline, False Gravity, Orb of Force, Mystic Surge, Greater Invisibility
5th - Arcane Fusion*, Shadow Evocation^Bloodline, Teleport, Banishment, Telepathic Bond, Modify Memory, Greater Blink

Title: Re: OOOOO OOOOO CCCCCC
Post by: Concerned Ninja Citizen on February 07, 2013, 06:59:15 PM

Quote from: sirpercival on February 07, 2013, 05:13:16 PM

I'm so glad that I'll get to see Extractor taken through its paces!!

I just hope I can do it justice. I haven't played a Meldshaper before, though I've built a few and am familiar with the system. I'm excited to build and play Extractor. Meldshaping + Inspiration with Maneuvers on the side should give me all sorts of fun toys to play with.

Speaking of Meldshapers, how will Soulmelds interact with the item attunement rules?

Under the normal slot system a Soulmeld bound to a chakra occupies an item slot preventing its use. The obvious analogue under your system is to make a bound Soulmeld count as an attuned item but I'd really prefer we didn't do that. The number of slots is higher than the attuned item limit and the nature of your item system makes attunements much more valuable than slots in the traditional system. Doing it that way would be a significant power hit to meldshapers and they weren't above tier 3 to begin with.

Honestly, I'd like to just kinda ignore that aspect of Chakra Binds. The idea of Soulmelds being like magic items is interesting fluff wise and I'll probably observe it in the "well I wear this magic item in ring form instead of belt form because I shape this sash around my waist" way but I don't think there's a need for mechanical enforcement of that concept.

What are your thoughts on this?

Title: Re: OOOOO OOOOO CCCCCC
Post by: Concerned Ninja Citizen on February 07, 2013, 07:11:15 PM

Quote from: chris` on February 07, 2013, 05:41:16 PM

Speaking of which, are any of you planning on casting short-duration buffs that would benefit from being persisted?

If I go Extractor I'm going to end up with Insight bonuses to pretty much everything. I don't know if you were planning to focus on one bonus type over another or just spam all of them but if you needed to decide between one type and another "not Insight" is best for me.

Title: Re: OOOOO OOOOO CCCCCC
Post by: chris` on February 07, 2013, 08:36:57 PM

Also, what kinds of immunities do you guys expect to have?

Title: Re: OOOOO OOOOO CCCCCC
Post by: Concerned Ninja Citizen on February 07, 2013, 10:26:44 PM

So I've written a background for an Extractor character (cunningly hidden in my character sheet post.) Nothing it should be taken as truth necessarily. That's what my character thinks. He is definitely wrong about some of it.

Title: Re: OOOOO OOOOO CCCCCC
Post by: sirpercival on February 07, 2013, 10:30:26 PM

Quote from: Concerned Ninja Citizen on February 07, 2013, 10:26:44 PM

So I've written a background for an Extractor character (cunningly hidden in my character sheet post.) Nothing it should be taken as truth necessarily. That's what my character thinks. He is definitely wrong about some of it.

...Where?  All I see is the Historian.

Title: Re: OOOOO OOOOO CCCCCC
Post by: phaedrusxy on February 07, 2013, 10:31:09 PM

Quote from: Concerned Ninja Citizen on February 07, 2013, 06:59:15 PM

Speaking of Meldshapers, how will Soulmelds interact with the item attunement rules?

Under the normal slot system a Soulmeld bound to a chakra occupies an item slot preventing its use. The obvious analogue under your system is to make a bound Soulmeld count as an attuned item but I'd really prefer we didn't do that. The number of slots is higher than the attuned item limit and the nature of your item system makes attunements much more valuable than slots in the traditional system. Doing it that way would be a significant power hit to meldshapers and they weren't above tier 3 to begin with.

Honestly, I'd like to just kinda ignore that aspect of Chakra Binds. The idea of Soulmelds being like magic items is interesting fluff wise and I'll probably observe it in the "well I wear this magic item in ring form instead of belt form because I shape this sash around my waist" way but I don't think there's a need for mechanical enforcement of that concept.

What are your thoughts on this?

Honestly... I don't know enough about them to know if that will be a problem or not. For now, we'll say they don't take up a slot (because I doubt it will be a problem, considering the guys you'll be fighting with/against :P ).

Title: Re: OOOOO OOOOO CCCCCC
Post by: Concerned Ninja Citizen on February 07, 2013, 10:34:16 PM

Quote from: phaedrusxy on February 07, 2013, 10:31:09 PM

Honestly... I don't know enough about them to know if that will be a problem or not. For now, we'll say they don't take up a slot (because I doubt it will be a problem, considering the guys you'll be fighting with/against :P ).

Yeah, if anything I'm likely to be underpowered, not overpowered.

Quote from: sirpercival on February 07, 2013, 10:30:26 PM

Quote from: Concerned Ninja Citizen on February 07, 2013, 10:26:44 PM

So I've written a background for an Extractor character (cunningly hidden in my character sheet post.) Nothing it should be taken as truth necessarily. That's what my character thinks. He is definitely wrong about some of it.

...Where?  All I see is the Historian.

Look at the bottom spoiler.

Title: Re: OOOOO OOOOO CCCCCC
Post by: phaedrusxy on February 07, 2013, 11:13:20 PM

Awesome background. I wholeheartedly approve.  :D

Title: Re: OOOOO OOOOO CCCCCC
Post by: MetroMagic on February 08, 2013, 02:58:27 AM

Blisss can provide some party buffing, that was his role in another game, but it's not superpowered. He spams the buffs because he can cast his entire, very limited spell list every 5 minutes, more or less: 0th=2, 1st=2, 2nd=2, 3rd=2, 4th=1, I think is how it will work out, or near enough.

In a previous incarnation it was:

Mage Armor, +4 AC Force for all. Shield of Faith, +3 AC Deflection for himself and the big fighter.

Legion’s Conviction, +3 Saves Morale for all.

2xMass Snakes Swiftness, 1 extra attack for all, twice per encounter or 5 minutes.

That is all.

PS. Is there any use to this?

Or he could have some other role, he's the ultimate in spell and SLA flexibility – only a few different ones, and not high level, but within those constraints he can spam whatever we'd like them to be. He was also a healer in previous incarnations but this party seems like it won't need that from him either.

Suggestions, anyone?

PPS. His main role was info: Knowledge skills, lore, languages, magic, and a chance of hearing practically any story from anywhere/anywhen. The DM's infodump dream. And working with water and ice... that could turn out to be unusually useful in a Frozen Night.

Title: Re: OOOOO OOOOO CCCCCC
Post by: Concerned Ninja Citizen on February 08, 2013, 08:42:38 PM

Thoughts on this feat?

(click to show/hide)

No one can tell where you end and your ropes begin. (This is a Skill feat that scales with your ranks in Use Rope.)

Benefits: You gain a +3 bonus to Use Rope checks and proficiency with the bolas, net, and whip.

4: You can use a rope as if it was a bolas or whip, and you can substitute your ranks in Use Rope for your Base Attack Bonus for combat maneuvers made with it. You can also use it as a net, replacing the normal DC 20 Escape Artist check for someone entangled with it with your Use Rope check. You can throw a grappling hook, tie a knot, tie a special knot, or tie a rope around yourself one-handed as a move action. You don't provoke attacks of opportunity for using Use Rope.

9: You can use a rope, whip, grappling hook, or similar item to manipulate any item within 30 feet of yourself as easily as if it was in your hands; you can also make disarm, entangling (as if with a net), and trip attempts with it. You can move around on ropes and similar structures, like webs, as easily as you can on the ground.

14: With a DC 30 Use Rope check, you can use animate rope as a spell-like ability; you can use any ability you can with an ordinary rope with an animated rope.

19: You can manipulate items out to 60 feet with ropes and similar items. You can use ropes for the grab on and hold down grapple maneuvers. When using combat maneuvers with ropes, you can replace the relevant check (disarm, grapple, trip, etc.) with a Use Rope check.

Specifically, would it be abusive if I found a way to threaten and make AoOs with the 30ft reach granted by the 9 rank ability?

Title: Re: OOOOO OOOOO CCCCCC
Post by: phaedrusxy on February 08, 2013, 09:48:59 PM

I think that would be fine. I like that feat.  :D

Title: Re: OOOOO OOOOO CCCCCC
Post by: Concerned Ninja Citizen on February 09, 2013, 12:26:29 AM

Could I have a magic "weapon" that is essentially rope that can function as per that feat (that is, I'd take the feat and use the weapon with it) and threaten its reach?

This tack is partly inspired by this picture (http://static.zerochan.net/Arthur.(Inception).full.404993.jpg) which I found while searching for Inceptiony stuff to use as a portrait.

That plus the Wrangler feat made me start envisioning a "Spool of Gossamer" rope/ribbon made of woven dreamstuff.

Sorta like this (http://www.illuminatemartialarts.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/IMG_9254.jpg) or this (http://www.illuminatemartialarts.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/illuminate-shots-003.jpg) if the patterns of light were the actual weapon, not just afterimages.

EDIT: MetroMagic's post inspired me to come up with some potential stats, using a similar scaling format:

Gossamer Spool
Image (http://a248.e.akamai.net/origin-cdn.volusion.com/vrnpr.tqtwq/v/vspfiles/photos/GB-IT-PAV-2.jpg)
Somewhere between a bobbin of thread and a spool of rope, this silvery cylinder is wound with fine iridescent strands of woven dreamstuff.

Lv
0: Functions as a Spol of Endless Rope except seperated pieces remain for 1 hr/lv before dissapearing. A length of a desired size can be seperated by hand if the owner wishes it to.

1: Add the owner's highest mental stat mod to the HP and break DC of strands from the spool

3: A seperated length of appropriate size can function as a whip or lasso sized for the owner. Requires EWP: Gossamer Spool

5: Owner gains +1/lv circumstance bonus on Use Rope checks involving the spool (this replaces the +2 circumstance bonus from silk rope)

7: When used as a whip a length from the spool threatens the squares within its reach and does not provoke an attack of opportunity for attacking

9: A length from the spool can be used to deliver effects that require a touch attack

11: Ropes of dreamstuff bind the mind as well as the body. A character entangled by strands from the spool cannot manifest powers unless they first succeed on a ML check DC 10+ owner's HD. A character tied up so as to be incapacitated by strands from the spool cannot manifest powers at all.

And I'll figure out the rest if we get that far.

Title: Re: OOOOO OOOOO CCCCCC
Post by: MetroMagic on February 09, 2013, 01:36:48 AM

As I wrote before, I’m looking for a straightforward way to replace Blisss’ feats that gave him healing so that he doesn’t feel obligated to use his few spells known for that purpose.

So I started with the feats that gave unlimited Cure Lights at will – once you’re at that point, only “how fast” is at issue – added your very cool idea of magic items that scale, and created something crazy.

What do you think of this automatically scaling magic item? Crazy? Too crazy? Way too crazy? Initial cost 4000GP as a scaling item?

Wave of Healing

An exquisite sculpture of a breaking wave carved into the interior of a small blue and white crystalline geode. This item provides healing to one or more creatures within range. It may be activated by will as an immediate action in response to an action that causes damage, or as a swift action at other times. The equivalent healing spell and its range are dependent on the character level of the user.

Level	Range (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Range_%28Spell_Descriptor%29)	Spell
1st	Personal	Cure Minor Wounds
3rd	Touch	Cure Light Wounds
5th	Close	Cure Serious Wounds
7th	Close, no Line of Effect required	Cure Critical Wounds
9th	Medium	Heal
11th	Medium, no Line of Effect required	Mass Heal (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Mass_Heal), 1 creature/Level
13th	Long	Raise Dead
15th	Long, no Line of Effect required	Mass Raise Dead, 1 creature/Level
17th	Unlimited	Resurrection
19th	Unlimited, no Line of Effect required	Mass Resurrection, 1 creature/Level
20th	Any Plane, no Line of Effect required	True Resurrection

Filling out the table for higher Levels especially began to get out of hand, so if you want to nerf some of this…   :-)  But it *does* scale very nicely! Feel free to adjust as you will.

PS. Or maybe it doesn’t even matter, or isn’t that important, since we have another character who does Heal more or less at will.

Title: Re: OOOOO OOOOO CCCCCC
Post by: Concerned Ninja Citizen on February 10, 2013, 03:47:19 PM

So this (http://dnd-wiki.org/wiki/Zen_Warrior_(3.5e_Feat)) feat fills the same design space as Insightful Strike but it does more of what I want it to.

Also this (http://dnd-wiki.org/wiki/Stand_Still,_Tome_(3.5e_Feat)) one.

Title: Re: OOOOO OOOOO CCCCCC
Post by: phaedrusxy on February 10, 2013, 06:37:44 PM

Legendary Wrangler 4 + Gossamer Spool 11 concerns me a bit. Although I doubt you guys will face many psionic enemies (you're basically on the psionic "team"), it would mean that you'd have a ranged touch attack that could incapacitate manifesters unless they succeed on a concentration check (to manifest while entangled) and a difficult manifester level check. Otherwise, they'd be screwed. I kind of like the idea, though... and I guess you are using up a feat + magic item slot for it. Other than that, I think that item looks OK for a start. I'm not sure how to price it, though.  :p

For the Wave of Healing... that's a bit stronger than I'd like. :P Marlowe can "cast" Heal, but he can only do a couple in-combat before having to recharge his Potential (which takes a full-round action). And it's a standard action for him, so it's taking up significant action resources. I'm not opposed to a similar item that's toned down, though. I'm off to see Django Unchained. I'll post more later if I have further ideas.

Title: Re: OOOOO OOOOO CCCCCC
Post by: phaedrusxy on February 11, 2013, 12:39:23 AM

The movie Primer is available on Netflix... and all of you should go watch it.  :D

Title: Re: OOOOO OOOOO CCCCCC
Post by: sirpercival on February 11, 2013, 12:39:59 AM

Quote from: phaedrusxy on February 11, 2013, 12:39:23 AM

The movie Primer is available on Netflix... and all of you should go watch it.  :D

Well... crap.

Title: Re: OOOOO OOOOO CCCCCC
Post by: phaedrusxy on February 11, 2013, 12:42:21 AM

Quote from: sirpercival on February 11, 2013, 12:39:59 AM

Quote from: phaedrusxy on February 11, 2013, 12:39:23 AM

The movie Primer is available on Netflix... and all of you should go watch it.  :D

Well... crap.

You'll probably want this webpage (http://qntm.org/primer) afterwards, also. :P

Title: Re: OOOOO OOOOO CCCCCC
Post by: MetroMagic on February 11, 2013, 04:59:30 AM

Quote from: phaedrusxy on February 10, 2013, 06:37:44 PM

For the Wave of Healing... that's a bit stronger than I'd like. :P Marlowe can "cast" Heal, but he can only do a couple in-combat before having to recharge his Potential (which takes a full-round action). And it's a standard action for him, so it's taking up significant action resources. I'm not opposed to a similar item that's toned down, though. I'm off to see Django Unchained. I'll post more later if I have further ideas.

OK, we’ve got Healing Unchained… have to tone it down. At least a bit: Following the “Marlowe Rule”, no faster than a standard action for Heal (and above), twice, then a full round action before doing it again.

I realize I omitted the other curing from the first draft that would also tie up Blisss, so I’ve got them in there now, at their various levels.

This was even more fun to put together!

... and I stole the Chained idea.

(Helps fill out some levels and works well within the item.)

REVISED Wave of Healing

An exquisite sculpture of a breaking wave carved into the interior of a small blue and white crystalline geode. This item provides healing to one or more creatures within range. Lesser powers may be activated by will as an immediate action in response to an action that causes damage, or as a swift action at other times. Intermediate powers may be activated as a standard action on two consecutive rounds; then a full round action must be taken to focus will upon the Wave of Healing to prepare it for further use. Greater powers may be activated as a standard action in a round; then a full round action must be taken to focus will upon the Wave of Healing to prepare it for further use. The power, equivalent healing spell, and its range are dependent on the character level of the user. A character may use any power up to the maximum power permitted by level, provided the character has an action available to do so.

Level	Range (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Range_%28Spell_Descriptor%29)	Power: Spell
1st	Personal	Lesser Power: Cure Minor Wounds
2nd	Personal	Lesser Power: Delay Poison
3rd	Touch	Lesser Power: Cure Light Wounds
4th	Touch	Lesser Power: Lesser Restoration, and lower powers upgraded to Touch
5th	Close	Lesser Power: Cure Serious Wounds
6th	Close	Lesser Power: Remove Blindness/Deafness/Disease, and lower powers upgraded to Close
7th	Close, no Line of Effect required	Lesser Power: Cure Critical Wounds
8th	Close, no Line of Effect required	Lesser Power: Death Ward/Neutralize Poison, and lower powers upgraded to Close, no Line of Effect required
9th	Medium	Intermediate Power: Heal
10th	Medium	Intermediate Power: Restoration/Break Enchantment, and lower powers upgraded to Medium
11th	Medium, no Line of Effect required	Intermediate Power: Mass Heal (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Mass_Heal), 1 creature/Level
12th	Medium, no Line of Effect required	Intermediate Power: Contingency may be applied to powers for self and others, and lower powers upgraded to Medium, no Line of Effect required
13th	Long	Intermediate Power: Raise Dead
14th	Long	Intermediate Power: Greater Restoration, and lower powers upgraded to Long
15th	Long, no Line of Effect required	Intermediate Power: Mass Raise Dead, 1 creature/Level
16th	Long, no Line of Effect required	Intermediate Power: Regeneration, and lower powers upgraded to Long, no Line of Effect required
17th	Unlimited	Greater Power: Resurrection
18th	Unlimited	Greater Power: Chain Contingency may be applied to powers for self and others, and lower powers upgraded to Unlimited
19th	Unlimited, no Line of Effect required	Greater Power: Mass Resurrection, 1 creature/Level
20th	Any Plane, no Line of Effect required	Greater Power: True Resurrection, and lower powers upgraded to Any Plane, no Line of Effect required

Title: Re: OOOOO OOOOO CCCCCC
Post by: phaedrusxy on February 11, 2013, 10:49:43 AM

That's a lot better... but I think it would still be a medium/greater artifact in my game. What's the # of targets for each of the abilities? The description says "one or more creatures", but most of the individual powers don't specify. Is it meant to be unlimited as long as they are within the area? (That might be OK, but then this item would be insanely powerful if used to empower an army by a high level leader, for example. But that might be interesting...)

I'd really rather not have any Chain Contingency effect in the game (or Craft Contingent Spell) at all, because things just get insanely complicated. Also, if I don't put multiple/nested contingencies on at least some of my bad guys, they really are at a huge disadvantage, and I don't want to be "required" to invest that much in them to make them a genuine threat. Although I seriously doubt we'll ever get to 18th level, so it's probably not a big deal.  :P

Overall, I think this is OK, as far as the current power level. I am not that crazy about the precedent it sets, though. One of the things I've liked about the ruleset we've been using is that (so far) most characters are more reliant on their own abilities, rather than those of their magic items. This is kind of a game changer as far as that goes. Of course... there have been exceptions (the Lochnar... the time I let everyone go crazy with unlimited Wish-powered buffs...), but those were more DM tools than "actual" magic items.


So... anyway, yeah, let's clarify a few things and run with it. We'll call it an artifact, meaning it can't be recreated, and it is a somewhat famous item that has had important impacts upon the history of the world (and would be coveted by powerful creatures who know what it is). I'd like to write up a short history of it, as well. With the wave motif, I imagine this thing being used in the underwater wars between the sahuagin and sea elves, but likely almost unheard of by the surface races. Since the sahuagin have the numbers advantage, and are less focused on healing/preserving their own members (and more focused on eating the faces of their enemies), I'd imagine this is a sea elf artifact. If you have time and don't mind, could you write a short history incorporating this stuff? I think this item would be OK for "future Blisss", but "past Blisss" probably wouldn't have it, as it would still likely be in the hands of the sea elves, and his having it would prevent them from using it to save themselves from their sahuagin enemies.

Title: Re: OOOOO OOOOO CCCCCC
Post by: Concerned Ninja Citizen on February 11, 2013, 01:16:50 PM

Quote from: phaedrusxy on February 10, 2013, 06:37:44 PM

Legendary Wrangler 4 + Gossamer Spool 11 concerns me a bit. Although I doubt you guys will face many psionic enemies (you're basically on the psionic "team"), it would mean that you'd have a ranged touch attack that could incapacitate manifesters unless they succeed on a concentration check (to manifest while entangled) and a difficult manifester level check. Otherwise, they'd be screwed. I kind of like the idea, though... and I guess you are using up a feat + magic item slot for it. Other than that, I think that item looks OK for a start. I'm not sure how to price it, though.  :p

I had actually intended for the lv 11 ability to function on people "bound" (as in "tied up") with the rope out of combat rather than people entangled in combat. Basically, I wanted to make tying up a manifester work the same way as tying up a spellcaster. However, in retrospect my wording would apply to entangled opponents.

What if I removed the "highest mental ability mod" part from the save and and made it "11+ owners HD" instead? That way it'd only cancel manifesting about 50% of the time instead of most of the time.

Title: Re: OOOOO OOOOO CCCCCC
Post by: phaedrusxy on February 11, 2013, 01:51:36 PM

Quote from: Concerned Ninja Citizen on February 11, 2013, 01:16:50 PM

Quote from: phaedrusxy on February 10, 2013, 06:37:44 PM

Legendary Wrangler 4 + Gossamer Spool 11 concerns me a bit. Although I doubt you guys will face many psionic enemies (you're basically on the psionic "team"), it would mean that you'd have a ranged touch attack that could incapacitate manifesters unless they succeed on a concentration check (to manifest while entangled) and a difficult manifester level check. Otherwise, they'd be screwed. I kind of like the idea, though... and I guess you are using up a feat + magic item slot for it. Other than that, I think that item looks OK for a start. I'm not sure how to price it, though.  :p

I had actually intended for the lv 11 ability to function on people "bound" (as in "tied up") with the rope out of combat rather than people entangled in combat. Basically, I wanted to make tying up a manifester work the same way as tying up a spellcaster. However, in retrospect my wording would apply to entangled opponents.

What if I removed the "highest mental ability mod" part from the save and and made it "11+ owners HD" instead? That way it'd only cancel manifesting about 50% of the time instead of most of the time.

So you'd have to incapacitate them somehow, and tie them up? That would be fine. Hell, it would be fine if they just can't manifest, period (or cast spells for that matter). If they got incapacitated, then you could (presumably) just as easily have killed them. So this effect basically becomes a plot device or something similar (capture but not kill the X).

If you want it to apply to people you "lasso", then yeah knocking off the +ability mod part is OK.

Title: Re: OOOOO OOOOO CCCCCC
Post by: Concerned Ninja Citizen on February 11, 2013, 04:45:05 PM

How about both? Entangled manifesters get a check against 11+ owners HD and tied up incapacitated manifesters are shut down entirely.

Is that too much for one ability?

Title: Re: OOOOO OOOOO CCCCCC
Post by: phaedrusxy on February 11, 2013, 05:24:27 PM

Quote from: Concerned Ninja Citizen on February 11, 2013, 04:45:05 PM

How about both? Entangled manifesters get a check against 11+ owners HD and tied up incapacitated manifesters are shut down entirely.

Is that too much for one ability?

Nah, I think that's fine.

Title: Re: OOOOO OOOOO CCCCCC
Post by: Concerned Ninja Citizen on February 13, 2013, 12:52:16 AM

Here's a stab at a tome feat for inspired classes:

(click to show/hide)

Eureka
Description: Those other guys might be inspired but you're like totally ultra mega inspired.
(This is a Tome feat that scales with your levels in a class with the Inspiration feature or an analogous feature (like Jester's Repertoire))

Prerequisite: Inspiriation (or analogous class feature)

Benefit: Gain 1 Inspiration point. Whenever you gain a new ability from this feat you gain an additional point (2 at lv1, 3 at lv6, 4 at lv11, and 5 at lv16)

1: When you spend an IP to gain a numerical bonus you may spend one additional IP to multiply that bonus by 1.5 (rounded down).

6: When you spend an IP to activate an ability with a duration expressed in rounds or that applies to a single roll you may spend 2 additional IP to extend that duration to a number of rounds equal to your highest mental stat mod or to have that ability apply to all rolls of the specified type within that duration.

11: Pick an ability that requires you to spend IP. That ability costs 1 less IP to activate to a minimum of 1 IP.

16: Pick an ability that requires you to spend IP with an activation time of a move or standard action or longer. When you activate that ability you may spend an additional IP to reduce its activation time to a swift action if it was a standard or move action, a standard action if it was a full round action, or by one round if was multiple rounds.

Credit to sirpercival for his Factotum feats which I cribbed from for a couple of these abilities.

I tried to make it equally applicable to all classes that use that mechanic or one like it rather than tying it to a single class. Not sure if that was a good plan or not. It gave some of the abilities awkward wording because I was trying to include all possibilities. 

Title: Re: OOOOO OOOOO CCCCCC
Post by: phaedrusxy on February 13, 2013, 10:12:51 AM

I think that's OK, but due to the open-ended nature, if a class with an ability fueled by inspiration points were semi-broken, this would probably push it over the edge. Still, in this game, it should be OK, I think. :P

Title: Re: OOOOO OOOOO CCCCCC
Post by: Concerned Ninja Citizen on February 21, 2013, 09:25:58 PM

How does your multiclassing system interact with Martial adepts?

That is, does a Warblade 2, Something 8 differ from a Something 8, Warblade 2 and, if so, how?

Title: Re: OOOOO OOOOO CCCCCC
Post by: phaedrusxy on February 21, 2013, 11:01:25 PM

Quote from: Concerned Ninja Citizen on February 21, 2013, 09:25:58 PM

How does your multiclassing system interact with Martial adepts?

That is, does a Warblade 2, Something 8 differ from a Something 8, Warblade 2 and, if so, how?

I added this clause a while back to make it so that they'd be the same:

Quote

Martial Adepts may retrain any and all of their maneuvers known at each level. Also, all prereqs are removed from maneuvers except initiator level (in a class which has access to that discipline).

Title: Re: OOOOO OOOOO CCCCCC
Post by: Concerned Ninja Citizen on February 21, 2013, 11:31:22 PM

Thanks. I recall reading that rule but I didn't make the connection that it'd solve the Martial Adept multiclassing problem.

Title: Re: OOOOO OOOOO CCCCCC
Post by: FireInTheSky on March 07, 2013, 09:12:18 PM

Quote from: phaedrusxy on February 05, 2013, 10:16:52 AM

copying over from here (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=729.0) but mostly the same as here (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=729.0)

Those 2 links are the same.

Title: Re: OOOOO OOOOO CCCCCC
Post by: phaedrusxy on March 08, 2013, 11:12:56 AM

Quote from: FireInTheSky on March 07, 2013, 09:12:18 PM

Quote from: phaedrusxy on February 05, 2013, 10:16:52 AM

copying over from here (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=729.0) but mostly the same as here (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=729.0)

Those 2 links are the same.

Whoops.  :blush I think the first link was supposed to be to the RoC forum...
http://www.ruleofcool.com/smf/index.php/topic,834.0.html

Sorry for the delay in getting started. Are we about ready to go? It looks like everyone's characters are mostly complete. I've been crazy busy, and I expect that to only get worse after this week... so I'll try to get this kicked off over the weekend.

Title: Re: OOOOO OOOOO CCCCCC
Post by: sirpercival on March 08, 2013, 11:22:57 AM

I think my big thing was the cohorts from the leadership feat... which I'm considering scrapping.  :D

I'll check over, I'm not sure my equipment's done.

Title: Re: OOOOO OOOOO CCCCCC
Post by: FireInTheSky on March 08, 2013, 11:24:33 PM

I had kinda paused working on this char for a couple reasons.  One, I had never read any of the TOME stuff, so I wasn't really sure how that was interacting with what I knew already.  And two, there's just a LOT of stuff to figure out with Scaleshaper, which was pretty daunting.  That being said, I read through pretty much all of the TOME stuff this past week, and now feel a little more comfortable with the changes they make.

Upshot is... I'm gonna try and finish this guy this weekend.


EDIT:  Phae, what do you think of this (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Too_pretty_to_die_(3.5e_Trait)) trait?  :D

Title: Re: OOOOO OOOOO CCCCCC
Post by: phaedrusxy on March 08, 2013, 11:54:19 PM

It's hilarious, but too powerful for a trait, I think. It could work as a feat maybe, with reduced or dropped penalties.

Title: Re: OOOOO OOOOO CCCCCC
Post by: sirpercival on March 08, 2013, 11:59:59 PM

Phae, are you cool with custom runestaves?

Title: Re: OOOOO OOOOO CCCCCC
Post by: phaedrusxy on March 09, 2013, 12:00:52 AM

Quote from: sirpercival on March 08, 2013, 11:59:59 PM

Phae, are you cool with custom runestaves?

Sure

Title: Re: OOOOO OOOOO CCCCCC
Post by: FireInTheSky on March 09, 2013, 01:05:58 AM

Quote from: phaedrusxy on March 08, 2013, 11:54:19 PM

It's hilarious, but too powerful for a trait, I think. It could work as a feat maybe, with reduced or dropped penalties.

I'm good with that.  In that case, I'll probably take this as a feat and just stick with the old standby trait of Aggressive.


EDIT:  Some feat options.  I could use help narrowing down choices (since I only have 4):

The above modified version of Too Pretty To Die

-OR-

From this (http://tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?t=48737&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=115) page:

Mystic [Skill]
The workings of magic are no secret to you.
This is a skill feat that scales with your ranks in Knowledge (Arcana).
Benefits: You receive a +3 bonus on Knowledge (Arcana) checks. Knowledge (Arcana) is always a class skill for you.
4: With a DC 20 Knowledge (Arcana) check, you can cast detect magic as a spell-like ability. You may substitute your Knowledge (Arcana) check for the Spellcraft check to identify a school of magic based on its aura.
9: You gain spell resistance equal to 5 + your ranks in Knowledge (Arcana).
14: With a DC 30 Knowledge (Arcana) check, you can cast dispel magic as a spell-like ability.
19: Any weapon, armor, or shield you use is considered magical, and benefits from a +5 enhancement bonus at all times (unless they already have a better enhancement bonus).

World Traveler [Skill]
The entire world is your home.
This is a skill feat that scales with your ranks in Knowledge (Geography).
Benefits: You receive a +3 bonus on Knowledge (Geography) checks. Knowledge (Geography) is always a class skill for you.
4: You and your traveling companions constantly benefit from an endure elements effect.
9: You receive a +10' competence bonus to your land speed.
14: Anyone attempting to use Survival to track you must beat you in an opposed check against your Knowledge (Geography).
19: With a DC 40 Knowledge (Geography) check, you can cast greater teleport as a spell-like ability.

Profound Presence [Skill]
Just being near you is a religious experience.
This is a skill feat that scales with your ranks in Knowledge (Religion).
Benefits: You gain a +1 bonus on all charisma-based skill checks.
4: Adjacent allies gain a +1 morale bonus to attack and damage (you do not).
9: As a swift action, you may emit a searing aura that inflicts 2d6 light damage against all creatures within 10 feet of you (except yourself).
14: Once per round as a free action, you may designate a target within 60 feet. If the targeted creature meets your gaze within the next round, it must make a Will save (DC 8 + CHA + half your ranks in Knowledge (Religion)) or be dazed for one round.
19: You gain heal 1/day as a quickened spell-like ability.
   
Ghostly Visage [General]
People think you've already got one foot in the grave. They're right.
This is a general feat that scales with your character level.
Benefits: You may reroll your miss chance due to a target's incorporeality.
1: When you attack or are targeted by an attack, you may take an immediate action to cause the attack to be resolved as if you were incorporeal, except that non-magical attacks still have a 50% chance to hit you (as if they were magical). You must use this ability before the attack roll is made. You may not use this ability if you are denied your DEX bonus to AC.
6: You gain lifesense, allowing you to locate living creatures within 60' as blindsense and sense the strength of their life force as if you had cast deathwatch.
11: You may pass through solid objects as if incorporeal, but may not end your movement inside of one (if you do so by accident, you are shunted to the nearest open space and take 1d6 damage per 5' traveled).
16: You are healed by negative energy as if undead (this does not interfere with any existing ability to be healed by positive energy). You do not lose XP when resurrected.

-OR-

The ever popular Martial Study / Martial Stance (probably Martial Study: Clockwatcher (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=12113760#post12113760), Martial Stance: Sands of Time (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=12113760#post12113760) or Distorted Clock (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=12113760#post12113760))

-OR-

Some Draconic feats?  Maybe Entangling Exhalation. (Question about this one.  If I'm a Dragonwrought Kobold, I no longer have the [Dragonblooded] subtype, which is a pre-req for Entangling Exhalation.  So that means I couldn't take it?  (:huh  that don't make no sense...)  Actually, I'm very confused on the  interaction between being a Kobold, with [dragonblood] subtype, having the Dragonwrought feat which turns you into a dragon and removes the [dragonblood] subtype, how that interacts with the Draconic Heritage feat (you take that to get the [dragonblood] subtype back after already BEING a dragon???)

Quote from: sirpercival on September 13, 2012, 09:30:07 PM

Dragonwrought (Ex): A kobold scaleshaper gains Dragonwrought as a bonus feat, even if he does not meet the prerequisites. (This feat does not allow him to count as a true dragon.) In addition, any draconic feats he selects function as if his draconic ancestors were of the same type as any Ideal he expresses. For example, a scaleshaper with the Draconic Heritage feat who expressed the Black Dragon Ideal would gain the benefit of Draconic Heritage (Black); if he switched the next day to the Gold Dragon Ideal he would gain the benefit of Draconic Heritage (Gold) instead.

:banghead :banghead :banghead :banghead :banghead :banghead :banghead :banghead :banghead (this is not helping my headache, or my inclination to finish this character...  I'm getting closer and closer to scrapping this idea entirely...)

Title: Re: OOOOO OOOOO CCCCCC
Post by: FireInTheSky on March 09, 2013, 01:48:06 PM

So I'm pretty soured on Scaleshaper right now, due to what I've talked about previously (mostly confusion on abilities and massive amounts of bookkeeping).  Here are some possible options for a replacement:

Land Titan War-Frenzy of Desire (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=5550.0) / Mawkin (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=7753.0) (EDIT: WF of Hentai^{Copyright Boz})
Dragon War-Frenzy of Fear / Demoralizing Shot Sniper (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2759.0)
Nomad (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=6733)
(or just sticking with Scaleshaper)

Thoughts?

(Phae, hopefully, this won't screw up too much of what you've planned)

Title: Re: OOOOO OOOOO CCCCCC
Post by: phaedrusxy on March 09, 2013, 03:58:25 PM

Those things are all fine. I remember really liking the Nomad class, but I don't really remember how it works, now. :D I've always loved ranger/wanderer kinds of characters, though. Even when I played MMORPGs, I was more excited about exploring new areas than fighting.  :P

Title: Re: OOOOO OOOOO CCCCCC
Post by: Bozwevial on March 09, 2013, 04:17:12 PM

Quote from: phaedrusxy on March 09, 2013, 03:58:25 PM

Those things are all fine. I remember really liking the Nomad class, but I don't really remember how it works, now. :D I've always loved ranger/wanderer kinds of characters, though. Even when I played MMORPGs, I was more excited about exploring new areas than fighting.  :P

'Nomad' is probably kind of a misnomer - I wrote it as a pseudo-swordsage replacement, so the class abilities are very much about maneuver combos. One day I plan to run one with Garryl's Sublime Tapestry discipline and see what happens. Still, though, it can definitely be the wandering sword mystic pretty well.

Title: Re: OOOOO OOOOO CCCCCC
Post by: FireInTheSky on March 09, 2013, 11:21:59 PM

It just sucks, cause I was definitely looking forward to playing a scaleshaper.  There's just sooo much to figure out/keep track of.   :-\  SirP, any ideas?

If I'm gonna go with one of the other three, what makes the most sense for the party?

General melee-ness: WF of Desire / Mawkin -OR- Nomad
DPS: probably WF of Fear / Sniper -OR- Nomad
BFC: Either WF would work (grappling vs. fear effects)
(Also, with Nomad, I can pick ANY four disciplines + Sublime Tapestry, so that would affect party role as well)

Thoughts?

EDIT: More grappling build options (ignoring any type changes to Outsider):

Ogre (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1467.0) 3 / Pseudonatural Creature (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=7452.0) 1-3 / Monster of Legend (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2723.0) 2-0 / Mawkin 4
Minotaur (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2000.0) 4 / Pseudonatural Creature 0-2 / Monster of Legend 2-0 / Mawkin 4
Pseudonatural Creature 4-6 / Monster of Legend 2-0 / Mawkin 4

Title: Re: OOOOO OOOOO CCCCCC
Post by: sirpercival on March 10, 2013, 06:00:58 AM

FitS - what are your difficulties with the scaleshaper?  Feat options?  What bookkeeping is bothering you?  I'm happy to help work things out... though if you want to play something else that's ok too.

Title: Re: OOOOO OOOOO CCCCCC
Post by: Concerned Ninja Citizen on March 10, 2013, 10:05:45 PM

I have quite a ways to go with my character and I'm somewhat torn.

On the one hand I'm very happy with my concept and the flavor of my class and build. It inspired me to go background first and that's not something I often do.

On the other hand, I'm getting nervous about my ability to contribute to the party. Both raw power wise (one of the main things I do is give myself bonuses to things and it looks like Chris's DMM/Incantatrix tag team may be able to do that for me better than I can do it for myself) and in that I'm not sure how to make the most of my lots and lots of different abilities.

I've been watching the FoPP game and I've noticed what Head of Vecna is doing with his character. I'm somewhat tempted to do something similar in the "abuse the multiclassing houserule by taking lots of classes" sense only with a martial type character (taking several classes that grant bonus feats would also let me make the most of the tome feat system, which I really like). That would make me feel better about the power level thing but, as I said above, I like my concept and the Extractor class both very much.

Title: Re: OOOOO OOOOO CCCCCC
Post by: FireInTheSky on March 11, 2013, 10:14:10 PM

Quote from: sirpercival on March 10, 2013, 06:00:58 AM

FitS - what are your difficulties with the scaleshaper?  Feat options?  What bookkeeping is bothering you?  I'm happy to help work things out... though if you want to play something else that's ok too.

Quote from: FireInTheSky on March 09, 2013, 01:05:58 AM

Some Draconic feats?  Maybe Entangling Exhalation. (Question about this one.  If I'm a Dragonwrought Kobold, I no longer have the [Dragonblooded] subtype, which is a pre-req for Entangling Exhalation.  So that means I couldn't take it?  (:huh  that don't make no sense...)  Actually, I'm very confused on the  interaction between being a Kobold, with [dragonblood] subtype, having the Dragonwrought feat which turns you into a dragon and removes the [dragonblood] subtype, how that interacts with the Draconic Heritage feat (you take that to get the [dragonblood] subtype back after already BEING a dragon???)

Quote from: sirpercival on September 13, 2012, 09:30:07 PM

Dragonwrought (Ex): A kobold scaleshaper gains Dragonwrought as a bonus feat, even if he does not meet the prerequisites. (This feat does not allow him to count as a true dragon.) In addition, any draconic feats he selects function as if his draconic ancestors were of the same type as any Ideal he expresses. For example, a scaleshaper with the Draconic Heritage feat who expressed the Black Dragon Ideal would gain the benefit of Draconic Heritage (Black); if he switched the next day to the Gold Dragon Ideal he would gain the benefit of Draconic Heritage (Gold) instead.

Some general feat questions are in the rest of the quoted post, but one specific confusion is quoted directly.

As for bookkeeping, there's keeping track of:
  Normal stats
  Stats while in dragon form
  Stats for a single dragon projection
  Stats for a single dragon projection using non-expressed Ideal
  Stats for multiple dragon projections
  Stats for multiple dragon projections using non-expressed Ideals
  Which Ideals I'm currently expressing, and how they affect my abilities
 
I feel like I'm forgetting something, too.  I love the idea of the class, but it just seems like a lot, and I'm not sure how to slim down the bookkeeping without trashing the class.

Title: Re: OOOOO OOOOO CCCCCC
Post by: sirpercival on March 11, 2013, 10:26:33 PM

So, one thing that helps is the rule that having the Dragon type automatically satisfies the prereq of having the Dragonblood subtype.  So, you count as dragonblooded when you're a dragon. Ta-da!

Re: bookkeeping, one thing you can do is ignore the whole "off-ideal" thing.  Stick to the Ideals you have, and then if you need another Ideal, you can adjust things on the fly as necessary (especially easy given that this is a PbP with lots of player downtime).  Alternatively, I can help you set up extra statblocks if you'd rather have them hanging around.

Another thing is: why would you ever want to hang out in normal form?  At least for combat purposes.  The only thing you have to keep track of when in your normal form is AC and Hide checks.

The expressed Ideal is a problem... but many/most of them don't affect your running stats... right?  Or am I understating the problem?

I'm not trying to talk you into playing a character you won't enjoy -- I just want to make sure that my class isn't the problem :)

As for feat suggestions:
~Mystic probably isn't worth it for you.  We'll have enough people who can handle Detect Magic.
~World Traveler's high-level ability is awesome, but the rest is meh.  I wouldn't take it yet.
~Profound Presence is meh.  Not worth it.
~Ghostly Visage is awesome.
~Seeing as how I told you about the Riven Hourglass stuff, I have to recommend them once again :D
~However, really you'll probably want Extra Ideal (or whatever the name of that feat is) which gives you more Ideal uses.

Title: Re: OOOOO OOOOO CCCCCC
Post by: Concerned Ninja Citizen on March 11, 2013, 10:47:26 PM

So I want a Combat Reflexes effect but the breaking of hordes (at least the cleavage involved) does not appeal to me. I'd rather do something trippy.

(click to show/hide)

Tripsy Fighter [Combat]
Description: You knock your enemies off their feet.
(This is a Tome feat that scales with your base attack bonus)

Benefit: You do not provoke an attack of opportunity when you attempt to trip an opponent while you are unarmed. You also gain a +4 bonus on your Strength check to trip your opponent. If you trip an opponent in melee combat, you immediately get a melee attack against that opponent as if you hadn't used your attack for the trip attempt.

1:You gain a number of extra attacks of opportunity each round equal to your Dexterity Bonus (if positive).

6: If you make a successful Trip attempt against a creature your size or smaller you can spend an immediate action to exchange places with that creature.

11: Each square that you threaten is considered difficult terrain for your enemies. 

16: Any opponent you threaten that takes any sort of movement, including a 5-foot step, provokes an attack of opportunity from you. Your foes provoke this attack before leaving the area you threaten. Your opponents also cannot use the withdraw action to treat the square they start in as no longer threatened by you.

Title: Re: OOOOO OOOOO CCCCCC
Post by: phaedrusxy on March 11, 2013, 11:57:49 PM

That feat looks fine, I think.

Title: Re: OOOOO OOOOO CCCCCC
Post by: FireInTheSky on March 12, 2013, 12:26:56 AM

Quote from: sirpercival on March 11, 2013, 10:26:33 PM

So, one thing that helps is the rule that having the Dragon type automatically satisfies the prereq of having the Dragonblood subtype.  So, you count as dragonblooded when you're a dragon. Ta-da!

Cool, that's real simple!

Quote

Re: bookkeeping, one thing you can do is ignore the whole "off-ideal" thing.  Stick to the Ideals you have, and then if you need another Ideal, you can adjust things on the fly as necessary (especially easy given that this is a PbP with lots of player downtime).  Alternatively, I can help you set up extra statblocks if you'd rather have them hanging around.

Another thing is: why would you ever want to hang out in normal form?  At least for combat purposes.  The only thing you have to keep track of when in your normal form is AC and Hide checks.

The expressed Ideal is a problem... but many/most of them don't affect your running stats... right?  Or am I understating the problem?

I'm not trying to talk you into playing a character you won't enjoy -- I just want to make sure that my class isn't the problem :)

All are great points, and definitely help.  I do want to play this character, it was just starting to get kind of overwhelming.

Quote

As for feat suggestions:
~Mystic probably isn't worth it for you.  We'll have enough people who can handle Detect Magic.
~World Traveler's high-level ability is awesome, but the rest is meh.  I wouldn't take it yet.
~Profound Presence is meh.  Not worth it.
~Ghostly Visage is awesome.
~Seeing as how I told you about the Riven Hourglass stuff, I have to recommend them once again :D
~However, really you'll probably want Extra Ideal (or whatever the name of that feat is) which gives you more Ideal uses.

I agree about all of the [TOME] feats.  I don't think Extra Ideal is necessary, because of Phae's houserule where Ideal uses reset at the beginning of each encounter.  I think the Too Pretty To Die feat is pretty useful for this character - crunch-wise, if not fluff-wise.  I don't think any of the Draconic feats are very useful for this build.

Do I (or, can I) count as having a breath weapon?  If so, Entangling Exhalation is probably a good idea.

So that would give me:
  Ghostly Visage
  Too Pretty To Die
  Entangling Exhalation

Leaving 1 spot.  Probably for Martial Study: Clockwatcher.

How does that sound?

Title: Re: OOOOO OOOOO CCCCCC
Post by: sirpercival on March 12, 2013, 08:24:40 AM

Sounds fantabular.  I forgot about that houserule :D

Title: Re: OOOOO OOOOO CCCCCC
Post by: phaedrusxy on March 12, 2013, 10:17:53 AM

If you have a breath weapon temporarily, say from expressing an ideal or whatever, then yes you count as one for prereqs.

Title: Re: OOOOO OOOOO CCCCCC
Post by: MetroMagic on March 18, 2013, 01:43:32 PM

I haven’t had time to write up the Wave of Healing for Blisss, and won’t be able to do it until after the 28th but I have some ideas to (a) tone it down a bit more and (b) add some spice in its backstory and in play. More on this later.

Meanwhile, I’ve been bogged down in the infinite codex of magic items. Here are just a few of the too many ideas; they seem a little excessively extensive, and kind of mundane, both at the same time. Suggestions are welcome. I’m posting the big list here, and will check in on your thoughts though my time is very limited till after the 28th.

(click to show/hide)

FIRST, GOAL ITEMS, UNFLUFFED:

4 Ability buffs +4
6 Skill buffs +10
INIT buff +10 or better
AC buff +10 Ghostward, get to mid 30’s at least
Mindblank wands
Truesight wands
Freedom from … fill in the blank
Immunity from conditions, and incl. Death Ward
Teleport, long range as a Standard or Move Action, and short range ideally as an Immediate Action
Languages Read/speak all of them
Use CHA for WIS skills & saves
Greater Dispel at-will
Buff Caster Level +10 or better
Healing at will


STUFF ON BLISSS ORIGINAL  LEVEL 6 LIST, MAYBE STILL GOOD IDEAS

Handy Haversack
Hand of the Mage
Helm of Comprehend Languages and Read Magic
Decanter of Endless Water
Circlet of Persuasion
Amulet of Health +2
Targath Sling Stone
Conductor Stone a glowing chip of stone wired inside a clever metal vial hung on a long loop
Eternal Wand – Mend
Eternal Wand – Detect Poison
Spell Component Pouch
ToolS, Masterwork:
Masterwork Arcana reference book, “Principia”
Masterwork Concentration focus

Scrolls

0th, 12.5gp/2 (total initial cost for 10: 62.50gp)
1xPrestidigitation
3xNo Light
3xFire Eyes
1xGhost Sounds
2xDisrupt Undead

1st, 25gp/2 (total initial cost for 8: 100gp)
1xMage Armor
3xShield of Faith
1xTrue Strike
1xLesser Restoration (Paladin 1)
1xMagic Missile
1xGrease

2nd, 150gp/2 (total initial cost for 6: 450gp)
1xMass Snakes Swiftness (Druid 2)
3xSnilloc’s Snowball Swarm
2xCloudburst

3rd, 375gp/2 (total initial cost for 1: 187.5gp)
1xMass Conviction

Materials for Scrolls 4x0th or 2x1st, cost 25gp


THOSE WERE THE OLD IDEAS… AND THE NEW IDEAS START HERE:

META-MAGIC

Empowered Spellshard MIC: Each of these are keyed to a specific low level spell. Three times per day you can use it to empower the said spell for free.

Metamagic Rods (lots of these): Empower(L3) Enlarge(L6) Extend(L6) Maximize(L3) Silent(L6)
Metamagic, Empower 9,000 gp (lesser)
Metamagic, Enlarge 11,000 gp (normal)
Metamagic, Extend 11,000 gp (normal)
Metamagic, Maximize 14,000 gp (lesser)
Metamagic, Silent 11,000 gp (normal)


GENERAL BUFFS

Elixir of Vision (250) +10 search 1 hr


INITIATIVE

Ring of Anticipation (DoTU). 6000GP Roll all initiative checks twice
Helm of Righteous War (CChamp) 5000 gp +2 insight bonus to initiative
Sandals of the Vagabond (CChamp) 4000 gp, feet slot. +2 luck bonus to initiative
Belt of Battle (MIC). 12000GP, waist slot. +2 competence bonus to initiative, extra actions
(armor item I just made up) Tunic, Roaring +4 Initiative (Competence), reflects onto attacker non-magical projectiles 10HP or less. With stylized Sea Lion image; it animates before battle with bubbles coming from its mouth.

(click to show/hide)

Roaring applied to a Masterwork tunic. The reverse-arrows secondary effect isn't likely to be useful at this level, but potential entertainment value.

ATTACK & WANDS, ETERNAL (notice some of these are Meta-Magicked)

Hail of Stone
Hold Person
Dispel Magic
Searing Light L6
Column of Ice L3Dr@7(Sanctum-1)(Enlarge+1)=25+5/2Lft range, permanent column of ice 10ftRx5ft/Lhigh
Magic Missile L1@9=5, 1D4 Maximized(3),Empowered(2),Enlarged(1) = 25+5*(1+1d4)/2 = 30to35, 380ft.
Snilloc’s Snowball Swarm L2@5=3D6, Maximized(3),Empowered(2) = 18+(3D6)/2
Alter Fortune L3+Enlarge(1)=70ft, reroll, must take 2nd
Ice Dart L3 (10900gp)


WATER AND ANTI-FIRE

Dust of Dryness (850) pellets 100gal/ea
Elemental Gem (2250) Water Elemental, Large
Rod of Flame Extinguishing (15,000)
Decanter of Endless Water (more of them for simultaneous use = a torrential flood)


PROTECTION & WANDS, ETERNAL

Battlemagic Perception L3@5+Extend(1)=100mins, Counter as free action
Arrows L2@7=7hr,70hp,DR10/Magic vs Ranged Weapons
Resist Energy L1Rgr@14+Extend(1)=DR30,280mins; Acid, Cold, Electricity, Fire, Sonic
Protection from Energy L2Rgr@7+Extend(1)=84HPabsorbed,140mins; Acid, Cold, Electricity, Fire, Sonic


DIVINATION & WANDS, ETERNAL

Chain of Eyes L3Cl@5+Extend(1)=10hr
Clairaudience/Clairvoyance L1Trap@13+Extend(1)+Enlarge(1)=1840ft,26min
Analyze Portal L2Portal@7+Extend(1)=14 rounds; d20+7,DC17

Metal and Mineral Detection (10,500)


TRANSPORT & WANDS, ETERNAL

Air Walk L2Shad@7+Extend(1)=140mins
Knock

Anklet of Translocation (MIC). 1400GP Range 10', swift action activation twice per day
Boots of Big Stepping (MIC). 6000GP Range 60, standard action activation. three times per day as Greater Teleport. Increase the caster level of all teleportation spells by 2
Cloak of Mysterious Emergence (DMagic). 13000GP Dimension Door with a 120' range 3/day, or 1/day 120 mile teleport


FOR SNEAKING OR HIDING

Dust of Disappearance (3,500)
Dust of Tracelessness (250)
Eversmoking Bottle (DMG). 5400GP


HEALING

Amulet of Emergency Healing MIC: Three times per day heal a target for 1d4+5 hit points, or save him from dying. It's an immediate action
Periapt of Wound Closure (15,000)


GADGETS FOR/AGAINST DISPEL

Rod of Cancellation (11,000)
Counterspell Ring (4,000) with (Greater) Dispel Magic in it
Ring of Enduring Arcana (CMage). 6000GP Add +4 to the dispel DC
Dispelling Chord (MIC). 1000GP give dispel checks +2 untyped bonus, 5/day
Ring of Spell-Battle (MIC). 12000GP Continuous: informs you of all spellcasting that occurs within 60 feet and Spellcraft DC 15 + spell level to identify the spell being cast (even if you can't see its casting or effect). Once per day, if you succeed in identifying a spell you can Counterspell as if with Dispel Magic or change the target of the spell to any target within 60 feet of you.
Magic Siphon, 25000GP CL 20 Greater Dispel Magic on all creatures adjacent to you


SUPPRESSION OF CONDITIONS

Horn of Plenty (MIC). 12000GP, held. Creates a Heroes' Feast once per day as a standard action: cure all diseases, sickness, nausea; 1d8 temporary HP +1 per two caster levels (maximum +10); +1 morale bonus on attack rolls and Will saves; immunity to poison and fear effects for 12 hours.
Soulfire Armor Enhancement (BoED). +4 armor enhancement. Total immunity to Death effects, energy drain, and negative energy.
Third Eye Freedom (MIC). 2600GP, face slot. Once per day, as an immediate action, gain Freedom of Movement for one round. Excellent panic button.
Periapt of the Sullen Sea (MIC). 6000GP Allows you to spend a 4th level spell slot to cast Freedom of Movement
Banner of the Storm's Eye (MIC). 15000GP Suppresses fear, prevents confused or stunned 20ft


GENERAL DEFENSE AND PROTECTION

Bracers of the Blast Barrier MIC. 3200GP the next spell you cast or spell-like ability you use before the end of your turn instead appears as a 10-footlong, 10-foot-high opaque wall that lasts for 1 round per level of the spell, three times per day. Has many tactical applications and doesn't limit you to elemental damage.
Brooch of Shielding (1,500) 101HP of Magic Missile
Force Shield Ring (8,500) +2AC
Mind Shielding (8,000) + Protection (2000) + Feather Falling (2250)
Vest of Resistance MIC (1000 and scales up) +1 to +5 to saves.


COMMUNICATION

Mindlink Bracelet
Helm (on original list)


SUMMONING

Bronze Griffon (10,000) 6 hours, 2x/wk (lots of these = Griffon airforce)


CARRYING STUFF

Bag of Holding 10000GP
Belt of Many Pockets (CArc). 11000GP
Infinite Scrollcase (MIC). 2800GP, Holds 50 scrolls


TYING UP LOOSE ENDS

Immovable Rod (5,000)
Indestructible Animated Rope (I made this one up; 15,000) 100 ft. length(s)

Question: What would a Ring of Wizardry do for a Blue Mage, who can cast the spells over and over anyway? Add spells known, since the number of spells known = the number of slots? Allow extra casting within a single encounter, with the extras refreshed each encounter? Or only extras once per day?

Title: Re: OOOOO OOOOO CCCCCC
Post by: FireInTheSky on March 20, 2013, 12:09:39 AM

Phae, how would you feel about a double-lined bag with Quintessence in the middle, and the inner lining being a Bag of Holding?  (Or think of it as a Bag of Holding covered in Quintessence, inside a normal bag).  Would the contents of the Bag of Holding be held in stasis?  The specific reason I'm asking is because of this (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=8863.0) item, which says it resets every 24 hours.  If I were to have 6 of them that I had to recharge every day, I wouldn't have time for anything else.  However, if I only had to recharge one once it was used, and the rest stayed in stasis, the lack of time would be solved.  Also, are these Attuned items (not the bag obv., but the Treatises)?  Assuming you're okay with the stasised bag, I'll have 6 of them regardless of whether or not they need Attuning, but that could affect my other items.

Title: Re: OOOOO OOOOO CCCCCC
Post by: phaedrusxy on March 20, 2013, 12:17:43 AM

Quote from: FireInTheSky on March 20, 2013, 12:09:39 AM

Phae, how would you feel about a double-lined bag with Quintessence in the middle, and the inner lining being a Bag of Holding?  (Or think of it as a Bag of Holding covered in Quintessence, inside a normal bag).  Would the contents of the Bag of Holding be held in stasis?  The specific reason I'm asking is because of this (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=8863.0) item, which says it resets every 24 hours.  If I were to have 6 of them that I had to recharge every day, I wouldn't have time for anything else.  However, if I only had to recharge one once it was used, and the rest stayed in stasis, the lack of time would be solved.  Also, are these Attuned items (not the bag obv., but the Treatises)?  Assuming you're okay with the stasised bag, I'll have 6 of them regardless of whether or not they need Attuning, but that could affect my other items.

Hmmm.... interesting. Yes, I'll allow that, although I wonder if I won't regret it when someone else uses this trick for something more abusive. :P

As for whether it needs to be attuned... I'll have to think about that. It's kind of like a Knowstone for a sorcerer, which I think I would require to be attuned. So I'm leaning toward yes... Is having more ideals available so useful that you'd give up almost all of your attuned item slots for them?

Title: Re: OOOOO OOOOO CCCCCC
Post by: FireInTheSky on March 20, 2013, 12:35:35 AM

Quote from: phaedrusxy on March 20, 2013, 12:17:43 AM

Hmmm.... interesting. Yes, I'll allow that, although I wonder if I won't regret it when someone else uses this trick for something more abusive. :P

Well, I can't promise that I won't think of something more abusive...  :plotting  (...I probably won't...)

Quote

As for whether it needs to be attuned... I'll have to think about that. It's kind of like a Knowstone for a sorcerer, which I think I would require to be attuned. So I'm leaning toward yes... Is having more ideals available so useful that you'd give up almost all of your attuned item slots for them?

I wouldn't have all of them attuned at the same time.  At most, I'd only ever need to have 4 attuned,  since I'd be expressing 2 of them already.  Also, once per day I can change an ideal anyway.  And, I can make Projections of Ideals I'm not expressing.  Honestly, I don't know that I'd walk around with any attuned.  Mostly this would be for an out-of-combat situation where I wanted the versatility of being able to express any of my Ideals, and the 15 minute attunement period wouldn't matter.


EDIT:  In this setting, what would the reaction be if I were to be in Dragon form pretty much all the time?  Very bad, and thus I should only be in DF for combat?  Minimal, so it's cool to have a Dragon openly traveling with the party?  Somewhere in between?  (...I'm assuming it's the first or third one, but the 2nd one would certainly be the easiest to deal with on my end)

MORE EDIT:  With Too Pretty To Die, does my armor now have a Max Cha Bonus instead of a Max Dex Bonus?  I think the answer is no, but I just wanted to double check.

Title: Re: OOOOO OOOOO CCCCCC
Post by: FireInTheSky on April 23, 2013, 04:05:51 AM

Am I the person we're waiting on? Admittedly, this has been a bit on the back burner for me, but I can make a push to get my character done in the next couple of days if I need to.

Title: Re: OOOOO OOOOO CCCCCC
Post by: phaedrusxy on April 23, 2013, 10:41:57 PM

I don't think you're the only one, and I've been absolutely insanely busy IRL, but that should begin to level off considerably, starting tomorrow. :D

Title: Re: OOOOO OOOOO CCCCCC
Post by: FireInTheSky on April 24, 2013, 12:00:14 AM

Cool. I'll start working on Murp again.

Also, CNC, the link for Art's pic is broken.


EDIT:  Phae, while I'm working on him, can you take a quick look at Murp (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=8699.msg138739#msg138739) and see if there's anything you don't like?

EDIT²: I have mindsight. Does my wyrmspirit, which also has telepathy, gain the benefit of mindsight???

EDIT³: What do you think of this (http://www.obsidianportal.com/campaigns/children-of-the-dragons-blood/items/travel-cloak) item, with the following modifications:
  *Gives the protection of SRD Endure Elements (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/endureElements.htm), not just (Cold).
  *Flask has the effects of a Decanter of Endless Water (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#decanterofEndlessWater).
  *Always under the effect of Prestidigitation (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/prestidigitation.htm), but only useable to keep the wearer clean and dry.
  *Grants the wearer a +5 Enhancement bonus to Survival and Knowledge: Geography checks.
  *Market Price: 15,000gp
(...okay fine, it's not really the same item anymore, just loosely based on the linked item...)

MOAR EDITT!!: I have ALL skills as class skills. So, as a party, what do we need covered? Obviously, since my CHA is GINORMOUS (+13), some good choices would be Bluff, Diplomacy, and Gather Info. Should I put anything into Handle Animal, Intimidate, or UMD? Here's the list of skills from my Ideals, which, at the very least, I should put a little something into: Bluff (already covered), Survival, Lucid Dreaming, Disable Device, Intimidate, Appraise, Tumble, Autohypnosis, Hide, Any One Knowledge, Spellcraft. On the other hand, the only skill actually required for any of my Ideal Powers is Appraise. So I guess it still comes down to what we need. If it helps, my other good stats are Dex (+4), Con (+4), and Int (+6).

Title: Re: OOOOO OOOOO CCCCCC
Post by: sirpercival on April 24, 2013, 08:00:10 AM

Iaijutsu Focus!

(phae, how does IF interact with natural weapons??)

Title: Re: OOOOO OOOOO CCCCCC
Post by: MetroMagic on April 25, 2013, 12:08:44 AM

::Grinding noise as character generator turns over, throwing off a shower of rust::

Lots of time spent elsewhere online, and now work for school and other promises for a few days. More time soon. I have too many ideas here, need focus.

SirP has one, maybe I can borrow his  :P