5E Caster vs Mundanes & Spell Evaluation (General)

[Necrosnoop110]

Hate to just make a blank request without at least attempting it myself but anyone care to offer any opinions on...

1) How has 5E addressed the caster vs mundanes issue?

2) How are 5E's spells? Anything cool and new? Anything missed? How's the basic mechanics?

Peace,
Necro

[caelic]

Well, let's see.

1. Casters still trump mundanes overall.
2. The gap is nowhere near as large as it was.
3. The main reason for this is that casters can no longer completely eliminate their weaknesses.  Wizards can't layer a dozen spells to make themselves nearly invulnerable; clerics can no longer buff themselves up into a vastly superior fighting machine.
4. One of the main reasons for THAT is concentration.  Most ongoing spells now require it.  It's not hard to maintain, and you can cast other spells while concentrating--but what you CAN'T do is maintain two concentration spells at once.  So you can be flying, or you can be invisible, but you can't be flying AND invisible unless a buddy is maintaining one of those spells.

[Gazzien]

First-level casters are a bit more powerful than before - with no caster levels, it seems like first-level spells can do more - most notably, Sleep doesn't have a save, and 5d8 HP is more than enough for one or two targets, and Evocation seems to start at about 3d6 (or 3d4+3 for Magic Missile) for a first-level spell.

[phaedrusxy]

First-level casters are a bit more powerful than before - with no caster levels, it seems like first-level spells can do more - most notably, Sleep doesn't have a save, and 5d8 HP is more than enough for one or two targets, and Evocation seems to start at about 3d6 (or 3d4+3 for Magic Missile) for a first-level spell.

WTF... 

[caelic]

WTF... 

Throwback to first and second edition.  Sleep was THE go-to spell for first level magic-users back in the day for exactly this reason.

[VennDygrem]

It may not have a save, but it's hard to get it to affect a lot of monsters unless they're particularly weak. It can be boosted by casting it with a higher level spell slot, but it's still hard to affect an appropriately-leveled challange with it. The upside of this is, you can whittle away at a more powerful monster's hp and then put it to sleep.

[caelic]

Man, the more I think of it, the more some staple spells SCARE me.

Flight has a duration of Concentration.  That means one well placed arrow, one blown Con check, and you're no longer flying.

Ditto for Water breathing.

[phaedrusxy]

WTF... 

Throwback to first and second edition.  Sleep was THE go-to spell for first level magic-users back in the day for exactly this reason.

Yeah... now that you mention it, I remember this... It's been too many years, and I'm too tired (and maybe too old ), to remember this stuff unprompted. 

[Wulfrak]

Man, the more I think of it, the more some staple spells SCARE me.

Flight has a duration of Concentration.  That means one well placed arrow, one blown Con check, and you're no longer flying.

Ditto for Water breathing.

You are safe with fly as long as you take feather fall, which is cast as a reaction.

[linklord231]

Man, the more I think of it, the more some staple spells SCARE me.

Flight has a duration of Concentration.  That means one well placed arrow, one blown Con check, and you're no longer flying.

Ditto for Water breathing.

No kidding.  I think War Caster is virtually mandatory, even if you never plan on having both hands full. 

[Necrosnoop110]

Metamagic?

[Unbeliever]

Man, the more I think of it, the more some staple spells SCARE me.

Flight has a duration of Concentration.  That means one well placed arrow, one blown Con check, and you're no longer flying.

Ditto for Water breathing.

This might be yet another example of turning the dial too hard.  From what I understand, one of 5E's approach to "caster supremacy" is to use concentration to impose a "one buff at a time" limitation.  That's all well and good, though query if buff spells were really the source of all the great caster firepower and not something more subtle and pervasive, but it's not a bad idea.  For instance, it's less ad hoc than a simple "one buff at a time" rule.

On the other hand, it has this (possibly unintended) consequence, where various classic magical abilities are now hidden deathtraps unless you take specific precautions.  You'll likely have DMs designing underwater encounters, etc. without realizing that they are one roll away from a disappointing TPK. 

[phaedrusxy]

I actually really like the sounds of this. Magic is still just as powerful, but less reliable, and you can't layer effect after effect on yourself.

[Wulfrak]

I think that it is still early days for this issue to be fueled by much more than instinct and speculation, as many of us have only built a handful of characters and played a handful of times.  However, I think that it is safe to say that the traditional major casting classes have been significantly weakened and the traditionally 'mundane' classes have been strengthened. 


One of the most telling anecdotes I can provide is that in my local gaming group, about 15 different characters have been built so far.  None of those characters is a wizard.  One is a Paladin.  Our group has been playing together for a long time, and there has never been any situation where a paladin has been built before a wizard has been built.  It defies all logic.  Regardless of where the actual balance between the classes lies in this edition, the most important thing to realize is that they have successfully made people WANT to play classes that no one has really wanted to play in ages.

People are genuinely excited about playing monks instead of just mildly curious, and it looks like monks might finally be reasonably easy to build well now.  People are similarly genuinely excited about playing paladins, which is something that has LITERALLY NEVER happened around here.

If you think in terms of overall usefulness instead of outright power, Bard may be the most powerful class in the game in this edition, followed by rogue.  WOTC's attempt to de-emphasize skills hasn't made having skills less useful, it has just made them more rare.  (Yes, I know bard is a caster class, and I know that it is now a full caster class.  I mentioned it here because of the skills though.)

Fighters got a fairly significant improvement due to almost twice the number of stat increase levels of other classes.  By the time mid levels roll around, Fighters have 20s in everything they need, and they can just take feats the rest of the way to 20.

Barbarians finally feel truly distinct from fighters, which has increased their appeal significantly amongst almost everyone I know.  The unarmored con bonus to AC has helped a lot with that.

____________

I will say this about spell evaluation-  Forget everything you know about D&D spells.  Assume that you have never read any of them before.  I have been taken by surprise SEVERAL times by spells that used to be worthless that are now amazing and vice versa.  You really just have to read all of them, and assume nothing.  For example-  Two of the most powerful first level spells are Faerie Fire and Sleep- and no, this is not 1983.

[awaken_D_M_golem]

3e would look rather paired down,
if it used a direct port of the 5e Caster stuff.

Slots, but with Augment like CL costs,
Wilder for 6th+ level spells,
one buff spell only via Concentration.

Yeah, that's still playable.
Maybe low Tier 3 equivalent after more stuff happens.

[linklord231]

Demiplane is an 8th level spell.  Admittedly it's severely nerfed from Genesis, but it's still your own personal pocket dimension.  And you can have as many of them as you feel like. 

[VennDygrem]

Wulfrak: One of my players is a Monk and is thrilled with his abilities. So far in-game, he's been at least as useful as any other character in the party, and has definitely proven himself valuable as a damage-dealer. Plus, he left part of his character background a mystery and let me fill in some of the blanks. It's been really fun making him regret that decision. 

The newest player chose to play a Paladin, going with the Oath of the Ancients. Essentially it's 4E's Warden class (much like Oath of Vengeance evokes the 4E Avenger class) in a lot of ways, but outside of that context it's like mixing Paladin and Druid.

Everyone in the group always has something to do, and a lot of it has been largely influenced by how creative the players have been willing to get. Spells have definitely broken apart standard conventions as new options become available, though they're also more available to me as the DM as well.

Ray of Enfeeblement was truly serious business during the playtest, when it allowed a target under its effect to deal no more than 1 point of damage. Currently it reduces all damage to half, which is still a big impairment, but not nearly as much.

[DDchampion]

So, despite all the skepticism I had seen around the web before the official release, is 5e actually delivering on its promises?

[caelic]

So, despite all the skepticism I had seen around the web before the official release, is 5e actually delivering on its promises?

Ultimately, you'll have to be the judge of that.

A lot of 4e stalwarts are looking at it and saying "It doesn't deliver what I want, which is 4e!  It sucks!"

A lot of 3.5 stalwarts are looking at it and saying, "It doesn't have the unlimited options of 3.5!  It sucks!"

A lot of OD&D stalwarts are looking at it and saying "There's more than one edition?   BAH!"

I don't think it meets the goal of catering to all playstyles, no.  I do think it takes some of the better aspects of numerous editions: the simplicity of second edition, the basic structure of 3.5, the at-will powers of 4e. 

It's better than I thought it would be, and I'm interested in giving it a try.

[DDchampion]

A lot of 3.5 stalwarts are looking at it and saying, "It doesn't have the unlimited options of 3.5!  It sucks!"

That seems like a really unfair criticism considering that 5e didn't have time to get a bazillion splatbooks yet.

But from what I've seen and heard so far, 5e PHB does have as much variety as 3.5 PHB.

Perhaps more since all classes now have multiple paths. And then stuff like the bard that can cherry pick from any spell list.