Author Topic: Pure Crafting  (Read 61331 times)

Offline Raineh Daze

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Re: Pure Crafting
« Reply #40 on: April 05, 2013, 10:51:14 AM »
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Artifactwork Armor: This seems abusable but the most abuse I can come up with is two Martial Strikes in a turn from two Standard Actions.  That still seems pretty crazy though.

Can't be that much worse than the fun you can get into with Repeat Spell, Twin Spell, Quicken Spell, Arcane Spellsurge...

Offline Nanshork

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Re: Pure Crafting
« Reply #41 on: April 05, 2013, 11:04:26 AM »
Quote
Artifactwork Armor: This seems abusable but the most abuse I can come up with is two Martial Strikes in a turn from two Standard Actions.  That still seems pretty crazy though.

Can't be that much worse than the fun you can get into with Repeat Spell, Twin Spell, Quicken Spell, Arcane Spellsurge...

I don't agree with the thought process that just because metamagic can be abused to be effectively free that other things should be built up to match that brokenness. 

Offline zioth

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Re: Pure Crafting
« Reply #42 on: April 05, 2013, 11:14:50 AM »
.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2013, 11:16:44 AM by zioth »

Offline zioth

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Re: Pure Crafting
« Reply #43 on: April 05, 2013, 11:16:58 AM »
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Or he can increase the prices, or reduce the power-level of his own rule. He doesn't have to rewrite the game.
No, he just has to rewrite the economy of D&D. Second option depends entirely on whether it's necessary.

He's already done that, by creating items that the DMG would price at 100k or more, and valuing them at 1gp.


No, he cannot. Wizard time stops and gates in 1d4+1 epic monsters. For starters. Then there's also shapechange, contigency, undead hordes. Forcecage is just 7th level and will auto-beat the warrior (even AMF can't remove the wall of force).Trivia, you knew wizards actually have an high level spell that allows them to cast inside an AMF? Or the cleric of mystra that simple laughs at AMFs? Meanwhile any melee build will probably be an unbercharger or lockdown, and they'll always outmaneuver the warrior because they have magic items. They get the first hit dealing hundreds of damage, warrior dies.

It comes down to initiative. A warrior with a bow can disable as many wizards per round as he has attacks, if he goes first.

I have learned something from this response, particularly the part about every build being an ubercharger or lockdown -- you're used to playing in very high-powered, optimized campaigns. Even in such a campaign, I think parts of your rule are problematic. In "average" games, it's worse. It's not easy for an average D&D player to create an effective ubercharger, or even an optimized caster. It's very easy to create a straight fighter with a few pure metal items. Using them doesn't require any difficult strategy -- just load up with pure metal arrows, and fire them at every spellcaster you see. Or cripple both of a melee character's legs, and then stand back while he tries to drag himself to you on his elbows.

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I've seen worst. You know what bogs down gameplay? At-will arcane sight, which I've seen quite a bunch of people around here put on their homebrews.
Yes. Many things, particularly some spells, can bog down gameplay. Even iterative attacks can be a problem. No reason to create new things that do that though. It might be worth spending a little time to see if you can come up with a simpler rule that still has the power level you want. I'm too tired to come up with one myself right now. :)

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Basic dagger is 2 GP. Double it for cold iron, 4 GP. Double again for pure crafting, 8 GP.
Meanwhile casters didn't pay a single dime to get defensive casting in the first place.
It seems like you're saying that the price is reasonable because it's 8gp, not 1gp. Sure, it's 8x as high, but 8gp still isn't very much. And fighters didn't pay a dime to be able to grapple or bull rush. Monks don't pay a dime to flurry. It doesn't make sense to say that class features and core rules, being free, should be priced at lower than 8gp.

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I'll admit the core spells of the ranger/paladin aren't very hot, but there's plenty of cool powerful magic in splatbooks for those classes, in particular when combined with that option for paladins to cast their spells as swift actions.
I'm arguing that pure metal items, even cheap ones, are more powerful than the entire ranger and paladin spell lists, even with splatbooks. Do you disagree? I mean, is there a ranger spell which doubles your armor bonus, doubles the attack bonus from your BaB, makes you almost immune to magic, and lets you completely cripple an opponent's spellcasting ability with a single attack?

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Leadership, Item Familiar, wild companion and friends would like a word with you.
You might be right about leadership, but only because your followers can craft pure metal items. You're basically giving a 99% discount on powerful item abilities. I'd take that over all the feats you listed combined.

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Again, arrows disabling spellcasting is your personal house rule, not my problem.

Then maybe I misunderstood your rules. It looked like there were several ways to disable spellcasters. An arrow can take out the caster's mouth, preventing verbal casting. Armor can create an antimagic field. I think there were a couple other examples, which I forget.

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Then, if you're pimping your nonhumanoid monsters with full wargear, well, the PCs would be in for a world of hurt even if it was "just" magic equipment.
Not full wargear. I'm pimping monsters with they normal total wealth, spent on pure metal items, and putting them up against PCs with full magic equipment. The monsters still win. If the monsters had regular magic items, they'd lose. You make this clear in your description -- you want these items to be more powerful than magic items. All I'm saying here is that you should consider making the items common due to their price (so you'll never have a party of PCs without them), or a higher price to make them less common. Otherwise, you'll have some pretty serious balance issues.


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How exactly? Fighter/barbarian drinks potion of invisibility (which also gives it time to gulp down some extra buffs), gets near with a spiked chain and trip feats, warrior is screwed because a pure metal bow still provokes Aoos for attempting to fire in melee.
You're giving all the advantages to the fighter or barbarian. I don't think I'm going to convince you of this in my current tired state, so I'll stop this line of argument for now.


Offline Raineh Daze

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Re: Pure Crafting
« Reply #44 on: April 05, 2013, 11:25:48 AM »
Quote
Artifactwork Armor: This seems abusable but the most abuse I can come up with is two Martial Strikes in a turn from two Standard Actions.  That still seems pretty crazy though.

Can't be that much worse than the fun you can get into with Repeat Spell, Twin Spell, Quicken Spell, Arcane Spellsurge...

I don't agree with the thought process that just because metamagic can be abused to be effectively free that other things should be built up to match that brokenness. 

Maneuvers also tend towards considerably smaller effects. It's also become a choice between portable AMF or the bonus standard action. Unless you're a fighter, but in that case... you're a fighter, so I'm not sure you'd get much utility out of it.

Offline oslecamo

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Re: Pure Crafting
« Reply #45 on: April 05, 2013, 02:08:51 PM »
Nanshork:
Pure Iron
(click to show/hide)


Pure Silver
(click to show/hide)


Pure Cold Iron
(click to show/hide)

Pure Mythril
(click to show/hide)

No, he cannot. Wizard time stops and gates in 1d4+1 epic monsters. For starters. Then there's also shapechange, contigency, undead hordes. Forcecage is just 7th level and will auto-beat the warrior (even AMF can't remove the wall of force).Trivia, you knew wizards actually have an high level spell that allows them to cast inside an AMF? Or the cleric of mystra that simple laughs at AMFs? Meanwhile any melee build will probably be an unbercharger or lockdown, and they'll always outmaneuver the warrior because they have magic items. They get the first hit dealing hundreds of damage, warrior dies.

It comes down to initiative. A warrior with a bow can disable as many wizards per round as he has attacks, if he goes first.

I have learned something from this response, particularly the part about every build being an ubercharger or lockdown -- you're used to playing in very high-powered, optimized campaigns. Even in such a campaign, I think parts of your rule are problematic. In "average" games, it's worse. It's not easy for an average D&D player to create an effective ubercharger, or even an optimized caster. It's very easy to create a straight fighter with a few pure metal items. Using them doesn't require any difficult strategy -- just load up with pure metal arrows, and fire them at every spellcaster you see. Or cripple both of a melee character's legs, and then stand back while he tries to drag himself to you on his elbows.
Look, the DC for crippling stuff is 10+Bab for a bow. At level 20 that's 30. A basic cleric will have at least +24 (12 base+6 Con +6 superior resistance at level 20. If you suceed on hiting them at all (only pure silver actually boosts attack rolls). And you're only having one chance per round of doing it.

Meanwhile such simple spells as Wind Wall and Control Weather completely shut down archery. If the caster ever bothers to show himself to begin with.

Now I admit I'm used for high powered campaigns, but that's also half the reason for this homebrew. However I feel like your campaigns seem to be more on the low powered side than exatly "average". At level 20 you are suposed to be facing stuff such as a Pit Fiend that has a bunch of DC 27 abilities that will one-shot characters if they fail. So if you claim you're constantly failing against DC 30, then a regular Pit Fiend will also absolutely murder your party.


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I've seen worst. You know what bogs down gameplay? At-will arcane sight, which I've seen quite a bunch of people around here put on their homebrews.
Yes. Many things, particularly some spells, can bog down gameplay. Even iterative attacks can be a problem. No reason to create new things that do that though. It might be worth spending a little time to see if you can come up with a simpler rule that still has the power level you want. I'm too tired to come up with one myself right now. :)
Meh, already simpliefied it down after Nanshork's comments.

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Basic dagger is 2 GP. Double it for cold iron, 4 GP. Double again for pure crafting, 8 GP.
Meanwhile casters didn't pay a single dime to get defensive casting in the first place.
It seems like you're saying that the price is reasonable because it's 8gp, not 1gp. Sure, it's 8x as high, but 8gp still isn't very much. And fighters didn't pay a dime to be able to grapple or bull rush. Monks don't pay a dime to flurry. It doesn't make sense to say that class features and core rules, being free, should be priced at lower than 8gp.
Everybody can try to grapple or bull rush. Monks paid a level to be able to flurry, because they surely didn't get spells alongside flurry, while a spellcaster got them.

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I'll admit the core spells of the ranger/paladin aren't very hot, but there's plenty of cool powerful magic in splatbooks for those classes, in particular when combined with that option for paladins to cast their spells as swift actions.
I'm arguing that pure metal items, even cheap ones, are more powerful than the entire ranger and paladin spell lists, even with splatbooks. Do you disagree? I mean, is there a ranger spell which doubles your armor bonus, doubles the attack bonus from your BaB, makes you almost immune to magic, and lets you completely cripple an opponent's spellcasting ability with a single attack?
Try Aspect of the Earth Hunter+Foebane+Mark of the Hunter+Find the Gap.


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Leadership, Item Familiar, wild companion and friends would like a word with you.
You might be right about leadership, but only because your followers can craft pure metal items. You're basically giving a 99% discount on powerful item abilities. I'd take that over all the feats you listed combined.
Then you would be making the wrong choice, because as you even pointed out Leadership can get you Pure Crafting (and a bunch of other stuff alongside it).


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Again, arrows disabling spellcasting is your personal house rule, not my problem.

Then maybe I misunderstood your rules. It looked like there were several ways to disable spellcasters. An arrow can take out the caster's mouth, preventing verbal casting. Armor can create an antimagic field. I think there were a couple other examples, which I forget.
I'll try to explain it one more time:
-The DCs aren't that high. And you can only cripple one thing per round.
-You need to hit the target (Plenty of effects outright block arrows, pure metal or not)
-Psionics and guys with SLAs don't give a crap about not being able to speak.
-Druid will still turn into pimped animal, if not already on that form. Cleric still has its persisted buffs.
-Unless you're in a tiny closed room, the casters can easily get out and murder you with instant conjurations from afar.

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Then, if you're pimping your nonhumanoid monsters with full wargear, well, the PCs would be in for a world of hurt even if it was "just" magic equipment.
Not full wargear. I'm pimping monsters with they normal total wealth, spent on pure metal items, and putting them up against PCs with full magic equipment. The monsters still win. If the monsters had regular magic items, they'd lose. You make this clear in your description -- you want these items to be more powerful than magic items. All I'm saying here is that you should consider making the items common due to their price (so you'll never have a party of PCs without them), or a higher price to make them less common. Otherwise, you'll have some pretty serious balance issues.
You did notice that it costs double to get pure metal items for creatures of unusual size right? Because monster normal wealth is pretty damn low, and even classed NPCs have lower wealth than PCs.


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How exactly? Fighter/barbarian drinks potion of invisibility (which also gives it time to gulp down some extra buffs), gets near with a spiked chain and trip feats, warrior is screwed because a pure metal bow still provokes Aoos for attempting to fire in melee.
You're giving all the advantages to the fighter or barbarian. I don't think I'm going to convince you of this in my current tired state, so I'll stop this line of argument for now.
Hey, you were the one claiming that the warrior has no magic stuff whatsoever. :p

Bottom point is, all the warrior is geting is +5 attack/damage and +6 AC/hardness over the commoner. The DC of his arrows is 20. The previous barbarian had easily beaten the commoner whitout even raging and with second-grade magic equipment. The warrior still doesn't stand a chance, because he still has no class features.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2013, 02:12:32 PM by oslecamo »

Offline Nanshork

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Re: Pure Crafting
« Reply #46 on: April 05, 2013, 02:35:51 PM »
Iron
I could see a case for a threat range increase of a fraction of your BAB if a flat 1 doesn't seem good enough.

I approve of the change to relicwork armor.


Silver
All of that makes sense. 

Cold Iron
It was the threatening that I was concerned about, but you've addressed that in other comments and so I have no more issues with it anymore.

Also, thank you for removing the magic weapon clause.   :)

Mythril
Okay, requirement of fighter 6 to get dispelling of caster buffs if they provoke on AoO is pretty harsh.  I see your point and agree with it.


Everything else looks fine to me.  I guess this means I should stop lurking in homebrew quite so much. 

FYI I also think this is really cool and have been thinking of ways to work with this system.

Offline oslecamo

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Re: Pure Crafting
« Reply #47 on: April 05, 2013, 04:11:35 PM »
Thanks!

Also switched basic pure iron weapon to increase your crit threat by 1 for every 4 Bab you have.


Offline Nanshork

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Re: Pure Crafting
« Reply #48 on: April 05, 2013, 04:29:55 PM »
I think this is looking a lot better.   :)

Guh, I have too many character ideas and no games to play them in.

Offline oslecamo

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Re: Pure Crafting
« Reply #49 on: April 05, 2013, 04:36:10 PM »
Guh, I have too many character ideas and no games to play them in.

Cough Nintendo spin-off cough. You had said you had run out of motivation but it seems like it has returned. :p

The Other Half party could also use a 5th player right now.

Offline Nanshork

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Re: Pure Crafting
« Reply #50 on: April 05, 2013, 04:39:13 PM »
Guh, I have too many character ideas and no games to play them in.

Cough Nintendo spin-off cough. You had said you had run out of motivation but it seems like it has returned. :p

The Other Half party could also use a 5th player right now.

The issue with Nintendo spin-off was more of a role one than anything else.

Another rpg board?  Man, you try to ruin my laziness all over the place!

I'll give it a looksee when I'm not at work.

Offline Anomander

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Re: Pure Crafting
« Reply #51 on: April 06, 2013, 07:02:06 AM »
The only balance issue I can really see with Pure Crafting is that the items might grant powers greater than what would be considered appropriate for their cost if compared with the worth and value of items of similar value that are deemed appropriately price-tagged.

Whether the pure iron is rare or can be found under every rock isn't really a concern.
IE: Grafts.
Grafts aren't magic items, nor psionic items, nor even really items. The actually body part needed isn't always so hard to get.
Even though they may the main component isn't rare, their market price can be rather high. That is simply because their price must reflect the value they offer, so instead of just requiring that a fresh dragon eye be bought off some obscure market or otherwise and just require an Heal check and a feat to put into place, the game justifies its price by making the exotic resources required to install the graft successfully are whats actually rare/expensive and raising the price to the appropriate level. Same principle could be applied to Pure Crafting no matter it pure iron's rarity.

It doesn't matter whether its fair compared to class abilities like spellcasting or whatever. As long as the price is right. (though I'm not saying it currently is)

Offline oslecamo

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Re: Pure Crafting
« Reply #52 on: April 06, 2013, 09:01:36 AM »
The only balance issue I can really see with Pure Crafting is that the items might grant powers greater than what would be considered appropriate for their cost if compared with the worth and value of items of similar value that are deemed appropriately price-tagged.
Define "appropriately price-tagged item". In particular when pure metals are based on having good Bab and sacrificing any spellcasting ability to make use of it. Also you can't just mix them as you see fit like magic items.

Whether the pure iron is rare or can be found under every rock isn't really a concern.
IE: Grafts.
Grafts aren't magic items, nor psionic items, nor even really items. The actually body part needed isn't always so hard to get.
Even though they may the main component isn't rare, their market price can be rather high. That is simply because their price must reflect the value they offer, so instead of just requiring that a fresh dragon eye be bought off some obscure market or otherwise and just require an Heal check and a feat to put into place, the game justifies its price by making the exotic resources required to install the graft successfully are whats actually rare/expensive and raising the price to the appropriate level. Same principle could be applied to Pure Crafting no matter it pure iron's rarity.
That's kinda your personal interpretation. At least as far as Fiend Folio cares in pg 107, the price is just for the flesh of creature you want to create the graft from.

Anyway I already pointed out you can refluff it as you see fit. However having the special properties been given by a cocktail of extra exotic components kinda defeats the idea behind pure crafting.

It doesn't matter whether its fair compared to class abilities like spellcasting or whatever. As long as the price is right. (though I'm not saying it currently is)
It damn sure matters how it is fair compared to class abilities. Following the grafts example, most of them are just too damn expensive right now to be of any use to your average adventurer.

Offline Raineh Daze

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Re: Pure Crafting
« Reply #53 on: April 06, 2013, 09:18:09 AM »
Having to cool a phantasmwork blade in something like the blood of a white dragon to make sure it keeps its edge is an awesome mental image, though. :D

Offline Anomander

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Re: Pure Crafting
« Reply #54 on: April 06, 2013, 02:25:49 PM »
Define "appropriately price-tagged item". In particular when pure metals are based on having good Bab and sacrificing any spellcasting ability to make use of it. Also you can't just mix them as you see fit like magic items.
I just did. It just means that the items compared to have a fair price for their granted abilities. Meaning you don't compare them to items that weren't priced correctly.
Requiring a good Bab doesn't change anything. Many items are more efficient if you have good ability scores. Others have requirements but really they are just excuses to increase the power. It means nothing unless you sacrifice finite resources for them.

That's kinda your personal interpretation. At least as far as Fiend Folio cares in pg 107, the price is just for the flesh of creature you want to create the graft from.
Try p.207 and don't read it too quickly. You'll miss it.

Anyway I already pointed out you can refluff it as you see fit. However having the special properties been given by a cocktail of extra exotic components kinda defeats the idea behind pure crafting.
Not at all. The extra required materials are needed for the creation process to justify the price - they aren't needed as an actual composite of the final product.
Like needing a bunch of special herbs that must be burned for incense to give the right air as the iron is being heated is being heated. Or even a special kinds of item to burn for the fire that actually heats the metal. Its not an obscure crafting process for nothing.

It damn sure matters how it is fair compared to class abilities. Following the grafts example, most of them are just too damn expensive right now to be of any use to your average adventurer.
It damn sure ain't.
You can make items that replicate certain class abilities. There are rules for that, and it follows the principle that their level of power determines the price of the item.
Grafts take no equipment slot and are purely extraordinary. Their price reflects that and people still buys them. I know I do.
You want to justify that your items can cost less because they prevent the use of certain items and class abilities. Not a good reason enough. Its just a different kind of requirement to use them and the requirements are usually bad reasons when they don't require a permanent sacrifice. Armors can't be used well by Monks and they don't get a price reduction for it: It's the other way around. They get a cool AC boost because they can't use it. Same with pure crafting. Spellcasters can't use them, the compensation is in that they have cool magic instead. It doesn't affect the actual pure crafted item in any way.
Even if they couldn't be used at all alongside equipped magic items of any kind it wouldn't justify a price reduction. They'd just become an entirely different branch of items that must be similarly priced. An alternative; you'd go full magic items or full pure items. Otherwise we could say that magic items should cost less because you can't use pure crafted items with them.
« Last Edit: April 06, 2013, 02:28:34 PM by Anomander »

Offline oslecamo

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Re: Pure Crafting
« Reply #55 on: April 06, 2013, 04:43:46 PM »
Most items don't care about your ability scores. Scrolls/wands/staves, and even magic weapons are infamous for not caring about your abilities. A commoner with a +5 vorpal sword will still decapitate Sir Lancelot if the commoner rolls a natural 20. A slaying arrow has DC 20 regardless of who shoots it. Eye stalk grafts always have DC 18.

Anyway, spending all your levels on classes with full Bab counts as sacrificing finite resources. Also you only have one armor slot last time I checked, so if you're wearing pure silver armor, you're not wearing pure iron armor, or +1 ghostward displacement armor, or +1 ghostward disclacement glamorous commanding armor with greater crystal of hardening/etc (aka you can combine magic armor properties at almost leisure and then plenty of extras, not so much with pure metals).

All I see required besides flesh in page 207 is that alchemist labs or evil temples may be needed. Not exactly expendable stuff.

Also, sleep eye stalk graft. You claim it's extraordinary? And fairly priced at almost 200k gold for 3/day sleep? :psyduck

Some look like they're worth it, but there's still a lot of crap in there.

However, your claims that monks are good balance points aside, I already said you can refluff it as you please, so... Any specific complain besides metaphilosophical discussions about grafts, that are a completely diferent kind of item (slotless, most don't care about your abilities, almost everybody can use them).

Offline Flay Crimsonwind

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Re: Pure Crafting
« Reply #56 on: April 06, 2013, 10:19:47 PM »
I don't specifically see it said anywhere outside of the implication in the fluff, which makes me think someone will try and abuse this potential; just in case I missed it, does it say anywhere in the mechanics that you can't enchant pure alloy weapons? Again, I know it's in the intention, but best to cover bases.

This looks really cool, and I totally have ideas running through my head about a character I once designed but never ran...
I'm here and ready to keep confusing the hell out of everyone I meet.

Offline Raineh Daze

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Re: Pure Crafting
« Reply #57 on: April 06, 2013, 10:25:05 PM »
Quote
Pure Metal items cannot be further enanched or changed by any kind of magic or special crafting methods. They have double the hardness and HP of their normal counterparts and their break DCs are 5 bigger than normal. Anyone equiped with a pure metal item cannot cast spells/powers/SLAs  or similar, neither activate spell-trigger items such as scrolls and wands or similar as dorjes.

No magic buffs for them.

Offline oslecamo

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Re: Pure Crafting
« Reply #58 on: April 07, 2013, 06:34:14 PM »
Added Pure Gold, aka Bling of War. Including powder and shackles option.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2013, 06:36:08 PM by oslecamo »

Offline Nanshork

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Re: Pure Crafting
« Reply #59 on: April 07, 2013, 06:49:01 PM »
Added Pure Gold, aka Bling of War. Including powder and shackles option.

Relicwork Weapon: It doesn't have the standard action/charge language that the other weapons do.  Is this intentional?

Unrelated question: Can the multi-alloy feats be used on shackles?

All of these shields really make me wish that using a Tower Shield was more viable.