Author Topic: Oslecamo's guide for DMs to improve their monsters-Discussion Thread  (Read 21508 times)

Offline oslecamo

  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • ****
  • Posts: 10080
  • Creating monsters for my Realm of Darkness
    • View Profile
    • Oslecamo's Custom Library (my homebrew)
This thread is for discussing optimization on the DM's side. Feat changing, terrain design, template appliance, obscure tricks that PCs normally can't use, oponent organizations, enemy tactics, it all has a place here.

Have a favorite NPC that you took your time to optimize to properly challenge the party? Why not share it with the community?

Offline Basket Burner

  • Legendary Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1072
  • I break Basket Weavers.
    • View Profile
Re: Oslecamo's guide for DMs to improve their monsters-Discussion Thread
« Reply #1 on: December 10, 2011, 11:18:37 AM »
Off topic: All these discussion threads should get their own subforum or make it so other people can post in the Handbook forum but not create threads without being a Handbook writer. It's completely overwhelming everything else.

With that said, I'll share a few of the basics first.

Humanoid NPCs. 99% of the time, these guys are just free XP and loot. It's not hard to see why, with their low stats, low wealth relative to PCs and so forth. Still, it's possible to consistently hit that 1%. It just takes a lot of work in order to compensate for their innate suckiness. Both on an individual level and as a group. If you aren't using them as a synergistic group, you are wasting your time.

In addition to that, any boss creature, humanoid or not must be incredibly resilient. If it's not immune or near immune to anything the party can throw at it, the party will run right over it in half a round due to simple Action Economy at work.

The last main principle is that enemies will only get 1 or at the most 2 actions. Make them count. If they cannot make themselves memorable quickly, they will not make themselves memorable at all.

Here is a relatively simple example.

Wyrmlord Koth is a Bugbear Sorcerer with Abjurant Champion levels. On one side, it's not a very optimal race due to the Charisma hit. On the other, non associated class rules means he gets 8 levels of casting at CR 8. Clearly, he is well suited to being a gish.

With Greater Mage Armor, Shield, and Divine Companion his AC is 35 and his saves are 17/16/18, with a +2 to will saves from Bolstering Voice if the right troops are still alive. For the level 6 party he is meant to fight, he does what he is supposed to do. His touch AC is only 20, which is not so good. However he has Wings of Cover to cockblock any attack that he deems a problem such as debuffs, Dispels, and so forth. This allows Koth to stay healthy and able to sweep.

On the offensive side, he's no slouch either. His biggest move is Wings of Flurry, which will juggle parties nicely. However that isn't the only save or lose he has, as he also has Imperious Command + Never Outnumbered + Fearsome, a Sudden Stunning weapon, and Bladeweave, meaning that he can throw out two or even three save or loses a round every round, further helping to mitigate the Action Economy disadvantage, as well as preventing the party from mounting an effective counteroffensive.

He also has some useful support abilities, such as Invisibility and Fly to get into position while the party is being kept busy and start beating them Radiant Historia style by making them lose their turns, and the conventional typical save or lose abilities. And Wraithstrike, to make those melee attacks more likely to hit.

All in all, a very respectable boss creature.

Minion wise...

Karkilan: Minotaur Whirling Frenzy Barb 1/Fighter 2. Straightforward spiked chain beatdown and trip down. You don't want to deal with both of them at the same time. You'll have even less ability to fight back. Come to think of it, you don't want to be in his range at all. 30ish damage a swing * 3 = you will die very quickly if you get near him. He also has respectable defenses, AC 28 and all saves in the 10-12 range.

Uth-lar: Hobgoblin Warblade 5/Fighter 1. This one is heavily dependent on several other factors. As it is though he's a good physical sweeper, fairly resilient... and has WRT, so unless the party really wants to get Radiant Historiaed by chaining together multiple turns, he'll die quickly. Given that the reason he was there is for a grudge match of sorts, the party had plenty of reason to not like him so that wasn't a problem.

Wolf riders: These guys are entirely dependent on houserules that make throwing weapons actually worth something. Without those, they'd do about 0 damage and would be pointless to include as they'd be only marginally better than the mounted archers they were meant to replace. With them, they get dex to damage. And then get bard song to damage. So they can put out some decent damage while moving around the field quickly.

Guards: These guys lack offensive ability, plain and simple. 12-21 just isn't good output, though 14-28 is decent. Defensively wise they're rather sound. AC is lacking, being a mere 21, making them the lowest on the field not counting the mounts or warchanter. Special defenses though are respectable, and they have a save reroll which makes them remarkably hard to get a save or lose to stick to... and remarkably good about soaking all those up. In other words, they're the walls of the team. They have some support abilities, though some of them aren't worth remembering (I kept forgetting some of them have Iron Guard's Glare the entire battle) and some weak lockdown abilities to get enemies (as in the party) to hold still where they can be dealt with.

Warchanter: This guy does about nothing directly. (About his only direct action that meant anything was sniping at someone who was already at 12% health and KOing them towards the end) Indirectly though, he's boosting the to hit and damage of all enemies by 4 in the first round and by 5 in all subsequent rounds. Despite being the weakest unit on the field, he's perhaps the most important for this reason alone, especially considering how badly the wolf riders and Uth-lar need all the flat bonuses they can get to sweep. It matters less for the others, as they have bigger hits already but it still helps considerably.

As you can probably imagine, if you have to deal with all of this at once you're going to be swept in under a round. D&D is a fast and brutal game, and this encounter emphasizes it. Take out your enemies quickly or be overwhelmed by them. Due to the number and quality of the opponents, the standards for "quickly" are higher than the already high standards for a normal game.

I finished this battle not too long ago.

It ended with the party of mostly Tier 1s being out or almost out of spells and almost everyone at single digit HP or worse, as well as two deaths, one of which was soon reversed (the other didn't want to come back, so the last charge of Resurrection gets saved for another fight, and yes there already was a Resurrection item there).

Given the levels involved (the fight was worth 55% of a level by itself) that sounds about right.
« Last Edit: December 10, 2011, 11:22:32 AM by Basket Burner »

Offline oslecamo

  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • ****
  • Posts: 10080
  • Creating monsters for my Realm of Darkness
    • View Profile
    • Oslecamo's Custom Library (my homebrew)
Re: Oslecamo's guide for DMs to improve their monsters-Discussion Thread
« Reply #2 on: December 11, 2011, 07:55:32 PM »
A 8th level NPC with two 6th level bodyguards by itself is already CR 10. Add in the minions and the ecounter's CR was more than 4 levels higher than the level of the party. But if the party was pimped casters and it was suposed to be a boss battle whitout any other conflict in the day, then it's the right thing to do.

Care to share what exactly those "soldiers" were? Also what class did the wolf riders have? Plus thrown weapons do get Str to damage. Something like orcs with javelins is quite nasty at low levels. Adding dex seems kinda overkill with some builds, altough the goblins do have Str penalty. But that's why they shouldn't go around with str-based weapons if you ask me.

Offline Basket Burner

  • Legendary Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1072
  • I break Basket Weavers.
    • View Profile
Re: Oslecamo's guide for DMs to improve their monsters-Discussion Thread
« Reply #3 on: December 12, 2011, 07:44:16 AM »
A 8th level NPC with two 6th level bodyguards by itself is already CR 10. Add in the minions and the ecounter's CR was more than 4 levels higher than the level of the party. But if the party was pimped casters and it was suposed to be a boss battle whitout any other conflict in the day, then it's the right thing to do.

7th and 6th. The total encounter, counting all 6-8 fights was level 13 vs a party level of 7, as the party size was larger than normal. Of course they weren't all out at once, because they were being put down fast enough.

There was one other fight that day but it was a throwaway encounter, largely an exercise in determining how the party wanted to effortlessly beat it.

Quote
Care to share what exactly those "soldiers" were? Also what class did the wolf riders have? Plus thrown weapons do get Str to damage. Something like orcs with javelins is quite nasty at low levels. Adding dex seems kinda overkill with some builds, altough the goblins do have Str penalty. But that's why they shouldn't go around with str-based weapons if you ask me.

The soldiers were just Crusaders, nothing special. The wolf riders were Fighters, but it hardly matters when the main instrument of their success is houserule buffs to throwing weapons, as goblins will never have a relevant Str score. Orcs would not make any sense in this encounter, and Orcs with javelins would not be a threat at these levels. So the goblins get Dex as their attack and damage stat. It's only a big deal if they get the jump on you, at which point they do dex to damage twice and are buffed up with bard song and other things which all together amounts to an easy 22-24 * 2 each + 21-28 from their mount. That isn't likely to happen though.

The other units weren't really affected by any houserules though. Just the wolf riders needed it to counter overcentralization by making more combat styles worth using. I'm not sure what I would have used otherwise. It would have likely been more boring generic two handers, because by RAW those are the only builds worth using for mundanes.

Offline Basket Burner

  • Legendary Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1072
  • I break Basket Weavers.
    • View Profile
Re: Oslecamo's guide for DMs to improve their monsters-Discussion Thread
« Reply #4 on: December 13, 2011, 04:49:12 PM »
I'm a little surprised this topic isn't getting more interest. This is one of the better handbooks, particularly since it is mostly focused on practical value.

Offline GreyICE

  • Lurker
  • *
  • Posts: 14
  • I'm new!
    • View Profile
Re: Oslecamo's guide for DMs to improve their monsters-Discussion Thread
« Reply #5 on: December 13, 2011, 06:48:41 PM »
I'm a little surprised this topic isn't getting more interest. This is one of the better handbooks, particularly since it is mostly focused on practical value.
Many of the people who care have just switched to 4e where this isn't an issue.

That being said, this is an excellent handbook, and it's obvious a lot of effort went into making a system that doesn't work at all (CR) actually function.

Offline Basket Burner

  • Legendary Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1072
  • I break Basket Weavers.
    • View Profile
Re: Oslecamo's guide for DMs to improve their monsters-Discussion Thread
« Reply #6 on: December 13, 2011, 07:05:40 PM »
...Somehow, I don't think that is the reason.

Offline veekie

  • Spinner of Fortunes
  • Epic Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 5423
  • Chaos Dice
    • View Profile
Re: Oslecamo's guide for DMs to improve their monsters-Discussion Thread
« Reply #7 on: December 13, 2011, 08:40:58 PM »
More that it's a DM side guide, and theres more players than DMs by about a 4:1 ratio. 
Also experienced DMs have more practice adapting monsters to fit their players, tending to directly edit stats(way faster than a rebuild(like when you need a particular monster right now because the PCs ran off the rails again) and you can nearly double or halve hp just by screwing around with the dice result on HD or modify the mosnter's primary stat by up to 4.

And also in most games, unless the whole group is CO, if you used all the tricks presented you'd have players who can't handle it.
Everything is edible. Just that there are things only edible once per lifetime.
It's a god-eat-god world.

Procrastination is the thief of time; Year after year it steals, till all are fled,
And to the mercies of a moment leaves; The vast concerns of an eternal scene.

Offline GreyICE

  • Lurker
  • *
  • Posts: 14
  • I'm new!
    • View Profile
Re: Oslecamo's guide for DMs to improve their monsters-Discussion Thread
« Reply #8 on: December 14, 2011, 03:55:21 AM »
...Somehow, I don't think that is the reason.
It was my solution.

There was some culture shock, but from a DM perspective god was it worth it.

Offline oslecamo

  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • ****
  • Posts: 10080
  • Creating monsters for my Realm of Darkness
    • View Profile
    • Oslecamo's Custom Library (my homebrew)
Re: Oslecamo's guide for DMs to improve their monsters-Discussion Thread
« Reply #9 on: December 14, 2011, 06:17:32 AM »
7th and 6th.
I've seen some people say fighter levels always count as nonassociated. :P

The total encounter, counting all 6-8 fights was level 13 vs a party level of 7, as the party size was larger than normal. Of course they weren't all out at once, because they were being put down fast enough.
Ah, the classic ecounter divided in waves.

I should mention that in my experience if the party has bigger size than normal, and they all have ways to buff their allies or drop nasty area effects, their combined power level will actually be higher than it looks at first glance.

The soldiers were just Crusaders, nothing special.
I would disagree here. Crusaders receive random maneuvers at the start of battle ad then recharge random ones every round. Even if they just last 1 round each it's kinda of a chore to use them as mooks for me. I usually prefer warblades for that kind of stuff.

The wolf riders were Fighters, but it hardly matters when the main instrument of their success is houserule buffs to throwing weapons, as goblins will never have a relevant Str score. Orcs would not make any sense in this encounter, and Orcs with javelins would not be a threat at these levels.

Brutal Throw to allow Str to be used for to-hit with thrown weapons, mount them in some large-sized wolfs (CR 1,5 with 4 HD ), water orcs for +4 Str, +2 Con, barbarian 1 for rage, I could see it working, altough I admit it wouldn't fit the theme as well.

More that it's a DM side guide, and theres more players than DMs by about a 4:1 ratio. 
Right now in this very forums I see two guide explicitly aimed at wizards, then a scroll guide, a metamagic guide and an item crafting guide. There may be less DMs than players, but the amount of handbooks for players is staggering when compared to the amount of guides for DMs.

Also experienced DMs have more practice adapting monsters to fit their players, tending to directly edit stats(way faster than a rebuild(like when you need a particular monster right now because the PCs ran off the rails again) and you can nearly double or halve hp just by screwing around with the dice result on HD or modify the mosnter's primary stat by up to 4.
Great for them. There's still inexperienced DMs out there, and there should be at least one guide for them, since inexperienced players get a trillion guides to overwhelm inexperienced DMs.

Every day in every gaming forum DMs come asking for some kind of help designing ecounters. This guide aims at giving those people an helping hand.

And also in most games, unless the whole group is CO, if you used all the tricks presented you'd have players who can't handle it.
And if the players used every trick in all the other handbooks here, then the DM would be perfectly justified in just making optimized rocks falling to kill everyone.

That's why I include several disclaimers to watch for party stats when pimping the monsters so you don't overwhelm them.

Offline veekie

  • Spinner of Fortunes
  • Epic Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 5423
  • Chaos Dice
    • View Profile
Re: Oslecamo's guide for DMs to improve their monsters-Discussion Thread
« Reply #10 on: December 14, 2011, 06:24:03 AM »
Yep, its also that well, to have extensive discussion, you'd need major flaws/gaps in the handbook that can be filled or address...theres not many of those.

Maybe if you added a section for dealing with casters/melee who pulled out all the stops with their plot bypass/instadeath ultimate supreme finishers.
Everything is edible. Just that there are things only edible once per lifetime.
It's a god-eat-god world.

Procrastination is the thief of time; Year after year it steals, till all are fled,
And to the mercies of a moment leaves; The vast concerns of an eternal scene.

Offline oslecamo

  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • ****
  • Posts: 10080
  • Creating monsters for my Realm of Darkness
    • View Profile
    • Oslecamo's Custom Library (my homebrew)
Re: Oslecamo's guide for DMs to improve their monsters-Discussion Thread
« Reply #11 on: December 14, 2011, 07:48:19 AM »
Quote from: Oslecamo's guide to DMs
2D-Dealing with powerfull party magic.
I'm too tired to recite the spell words...-Patchoulli, anemic wizard.

Now one of the things that makes casters fearsome it's that they can break the rules and screw the monsters whitout caring about their AC and saves. They're relatively rare at low levels, but quickly get stronger and stronger as the party levels up, and can easily overshaddow everything else if you're not prepared. A good DM must know how to deal with those

Basic anti-magic defenses:
"What do you mean he broke that wall of force by flexing his muscles?"-Eretreb, white ethergaunt

(click to show/hide)

Countering Utility Spells:
"No, we can't teleport into Mount Doom. Stop sugesting it."-Gandalf, wandering wizard.

(click to show/hide)
Disclaimer: players probably will get annoyed if you deny them utility magic at every turn, so do try to keep it for special stronger monsters. Not everybody in the campaign world should be smart enough or have the resources for all those measures. But that dragon protecting his hoard? Mess up with him at your own risk.

Ok, so what precisely do you sugest that gets added there?

Offline Basket Burner

  • Legendary Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1072
  • I break Basket Weavers.
    • View Profile
Re: Oslecamo's guide for DMs to improve their monsters-Discussion Thread
« Reply #12 on: December 14, 2011, 08:13:40 AM »
7th and 6th.
I've seen some people say fighter levels always count as nonassociated. :P

Dips aren't that bad. But I use them as generic mook levels. Anything that would be a Warrior is a Fighter. In this case he needed the bonus feats for something.

Quote
Ah, the classic ecounter divided in waves.

I should mention that in my experience if the party has bigger size than normal, and they all have ways to buff their allies or drop nasty area effects, their combined power level will actually be higher than it looks at first glance.

It's more that x enemies will arrive at y time. And this is true regardless of whether you've cleared the field, or still are fighting everything else. And that's fine, but they needed the power.

Quote
I would disagree here. Crusaders receive random maneuvers at the start of battle ad then recharge random ones every round. Even if they just last 1 round each it's kinda of a chore to use them as mooks for me. I usually prefer warblades for that kind of stuff.

You are missing the point of what special means. With that said Warblades do not fill the same role in the encounter, not even close, and the random maneuvers weren't that bad to manage. My problem was forgetting IGG repeatedly because it's so weak as to not be worth mentioning.

Quote
Brutal Throw to allow Str to be used for to-hit with thrown weapons, mount them in some large-sized wolfs (CR 1,5 with 4 HD ), water orcs for +4 Str, +2 Con, barbarian 1 for rage, I could see it working, altough I admit it wouldn't fit the theme as well.

Not only would it not fit the theme at all, but it would be entirely pointless to do that. Why not just use more generic two handers then, and use that strength a lot better? A large sized wolf would also be far too squishy. Warbeast Dire Wolves can actually take a hit or two.

There would also be too much conceptual overlap with the berserker units in other encounters. There's extreme overcentralization in the mundane areas as it is, without making them even more of the same.

Offline Prime32

  • Over-Underling
  • Retired Admin
  • *****
  • Posts: 2914
    • View Profile
Re: Oslecamo's guide for DMs to improve their monsters-Discussion Thread
« Reply #13 on: December 14, 2011, 08:31:18 AM »
The soldiers were just Crusaders, nothing special.
I would disagree here. Crusaders receive random maneuvers at the start of battle ad then recharge random ones every round. Even if they just last 1 round each it's kinda of a chore to use them as mooks for me. I usually prefer warblades for that kind of stuff.
This is part of why I made an NPC class with auto-refreshing maneuvers.

Offline Basket Burner

  • Legendary Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1072
  • I break Basket Weavers.
    • View Profile
Re: Oslecamo's guide for DMs to improve their monsters-Discussion Thread
« Reply #14 on: December 14, 2011, 07:06:56 PM »
When I referred to Crusaders as nothing special, I meant they really didn't have any special tricks. A few maneuvers, Stand Still, decent saves. Nothing extraordinary.

Offline Jackinthegreen

  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • ****
  • Posts: 6176
  • I like green.
    • View Profile
Re: Oslecamo's guide for DMs to improve their monsters-Discussion Thread
« Reply #15 on: December 15, 2011, 04:35:03 AM »
Well, technically all a Crusader's abilities are extraordinary...  Perhaps you're looking for stuff closer to supernatural?

Offline veekie

  • Spinner of Fortunes
  • Epic Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 5423
  • Chaos Dice
    • View Profile
Re: Oslecamo's guide for DMs to improve their monsters-Discussion Thread
« Reply #16 on: December 15, 2011, 05:19:13 AM »
Ok, so what precisely do you sugest that gets added there?
The Polymorph  chain in particular, especially with monsters that give sensory or movement options you aren't supposed to have easily on PCs. Earth Glide is one such case(as is Burrow to a lesser degree). It can be very hard to devise appropriate counters or predict possible capabilities unless using a nerfed version. Mainly this goes with the adamantine-wallpick where they dice to just go through the walls one way or another.

As is Teleport's elder brother, Plane Shift, which expands the party's exploration areas rather significantly more massively than teleport. One option is to try to constrain it by the tuning fork access, but other ideas would be helpful. Both Teleport and Plane Shift also has a 'flee combat' option, but I'm not sure thats really much of a problem(though monsters with at will flee/re-engage options can be a fairly major pain in the butt for the party I guess).

Possibly also something for mook-generating PCs, undead minions mostly(god knows what you can do about planar minions)
« Last Edit: December 15, 2011, 05:24:07 AM by veekie »
Everything is edible. Just that there are things only edible once per lifetime.
It's a god-eat-god world.

Procrastination is the thief of time; Year after year it steals, till all are fled,
And to the mercies of a moment leaves; The vast concerns of an eternal scene.

Offline Basket Burner

  • Legendary Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1072
  • I break Basket Weavers.
    • View Profile
Re: Oslecamo's guide for DMs to improve their monsters-Discussion Thread
« Reply #17 on: December 15, 2011, 07:33:24 AM »
Well, technically all a Crusader's abilities are extraordinary...  Perhaps you're looking for stuff closer to supernatural?

 :banghead

Offline Thurbane

  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • **
  • Posts: 133
  • 3.5 fanboy
    • View Profile
Re: Oslecamo's guide for DMs to improve their monsters-Discussion Thread
« Reply #18 on: January 30, 2012, 08:46:35 PM »
One nice defensive option for monsters: Willing Deformity (madness). It and its prereq feat are both vile, and available for "free" if the creature worships an Elder Evil. For the cost of 2 feats (and a hit to WIS), the creature gains immunity to mind affecting attacks. Great for brute monsters with low Will saves. In fact, if it's not too cheesy, most creatures in the service of an Elder Evil can claim 1 bonus vile feat per 5 HD - Deformity (tall) is good for giving reach to medium creatures.

Another boost to monsters without increasing their CR is the NPC traits in the DMG II - quite of few of them are CR +0. Prodigy is especially nice: +2 to one stat of choice, plus an extra +4 on all checks based on that ability. Pretty sweet for any creature with special attacks based on an ability score, or relies on skills.

Air Heritage is a nice feat: +30ft to existing fly speed. Good for hit-n-run flying monsters, especially combined with Flyby Attack.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2012, 12:48:50 AM by Thurbane »

Offline Thurbane

  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • **
  • Posts: 133
  • 3.5 fanboy
    • View Profile
Re: Oslecamo's guide for DMs to improve their monsters-Discussion Thread
« Reply #19 on: February 02, 2012, 08:19:24 PM »
Also, I was compiling a list of CR +0 or less templates, as per below:


CR +0 templates
Bone Creature (BV)
Dragonborn of Bahamut (RDr)
Dungeonbred Monster (Du)
Necropolitan (LM)
Primordial Giant (SX)
Tainted Raver (HoH)
Yuan-ti Broodguard (SS)

Dark Creature (TM) (CR +0 or CR +1 depending on the base creature)
Vecna-blooded (MM5) (after the template has been lost, only the Cloak of Mystery ability remains)
Xorvintaal Dragon (MM5) (rises to CR +1 or higher if extra abilities are added)

CR +0 when applied to creatures of 3HD or less
Anarchic Creature (PlH)
Axiomatic Creature (PlH)
Celestial (MM)
Element Creature (MP)
Entropic Creature (PlH)
Fiendish (MM)
Psuedonatural (LoM)
Spellwarped (MM3)

CR = x 0.5
Incarnate Construct

DMG2 CR+0 NPC traits
Graced from outside
Guardian spirit
Lifemate
Poisonlaced
Prodigy

...I would be careful about combining or abusing too many of these. Most aren't that powerful, but if you layered enough on top of each other, you'd end up with a monster very powerful for its CR.
« Last Edit: February 02, 2012, 08:21:49 PM by Thurbane »