Author Topic: 3.5 making a Lick King  (Read 2505 times)

Offline Zellsantal

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3.5 making a Lick King
« on: February 21, 2020, 11:31:56 PM »
For an up coming game each of the party will start as a 20th level character and lord of our own kingdoms, however being the DM is my dad he told me a bit of what he doing in the start of this game and it would be a evil campaign. The party would be at war with each other and then just before the big battle could start a flash of light would blind us and suddenly sent to the past (one thousand years back in time) and our characters would be be themselves but at forth level and that's where the game begins. Yes I see already the party going to want to kill the DM when this happens but at the same time I have to say it be funny lol. For my character I wanted to try something a bit different and been wanting to do for a good while. I wanted to make the Lick King from Warcarft or something like him. After doing so looking around I think I have thought of a good build though only up to level 15

Human
Cloistered Cleric 4/Crusader 1/Ruby Knight 10/ other 5 levels not sure
Starting stats (before plus ability scores) 18 str, 12 con, 12, dex, 14 int, 16 wis, 15 cha.
Starting 50,000 worth of items plus one artifact item that is key to the character (at 4th level starting with 4,000 worth)

Also have the death knight template and would get all but two things from it, the +5 levels and the spell resistance. However it will be taken away when turned back at level four but will plan on getting it again at level 6.

Feats are what I am have a bit of a challenge at the moment, the first three feats I have a good build already but not sure for the rest.
Extend Spell
Persistent Spell
Divine metamagic (Persistent Spell)

Energy Substitution
That in mind I have thought about the combo of Lord of the Uttercold and Energy Substitution with my Death Knight stuff. However I was thinking of putting those feats in cloak  but my question for that is how much would it be to do that? I tried looking it up but I still not sure how to do it, more so because each of these metamagics have 0 cost

I have thought of Corpsecrafter or just stack up on extra turnings, other then that not sure what other feats would work well with this build.

For items, again I like to know the price for making a cloak with Energy Substitution and Uttercold and would add it to my character list unless it's way too much. Full plate, if I can like to some how add Expeditious Retreat to give me more speed (again would need price for items like that.). Strongarm bracers, Heavy Steel shield and weighted greatsword. Maybe some nightsticks but other then that I can't think of anything else.

At this point I would like to hear some suggestions and thoughts about my build that I could emprove or even change to make it deadlier as well for the  prices on the stuff I asked for the custom magical items

Offline Eldritch_Lord

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Re: 3.5 making a Lick King
« Reply #1 on: February 22, 2020, 01:17:12 AM »
However I was thinking of putting those feats in cloak  but my question for that is how much would it be to do that? I tried looking it up but I still not sure how to do it, more so because each of these metamagics have 0 cost
[...]
For items, again I like to know the price for making a cloak with Energy Substitution and Uttercold and would add it to my character list unless it's way too much.

There are two "official" ways to do that.  You can go the Metamagic Rod route by figuring out the price for a greater metamagic rod of cold substitution and  greater metamagic rod of uttercold, adding the markup for combining items and using an unusual slot, and add that onto whatever other powers the item has; the pro for that is that it's pretty solid rules-wise, the con is that that's pretty expensive and only 3/day each.

The other option is to use the Arms & Equipment Guide rules on making items that grant feats, which says they should "cost 10,000 gp, plus another 5,000 gp to 10,000 gp per prerequisite."  (There's a previous paragraph in that sidebar regarding metamagic feats, but since it mentions increasing price due to increased spell levels, that seems like it's intended to apply to building metamagic into other item effects).  The pro for that approach is that you effectively have the feat and can apply it to all your spells, the con is that it's heavily dependent on DM judgment.  Personally, for a thematic and not-ridiculously-powerful combo like that I wouldn't think twice before approving it, but your DM might have other ideas.

Quote
Full plate, if I can like to some how add Expeditious Retreat to give me more speed (again would need price for items like that.).

The DMG has standard price formulas for that.  Constant effects are [CL] × [spell level] × 2,000 gp, times 2 for the original spell having a minutes/level duration.

Quote
I have thought of Corpsecrafter or just stack up on extra turnings, other then that not sure what other feats would work well with this build.
[...]
At this point I would like to hear some suggestions and thoughts about my build that I could emprove or even change to make it deadlier as well for the  prices on the stuff I asked for the custom magical items

For dedicated necromancers in general, and a Lich King type in particular, there are three major routes you can take:

1) Be an undead master, focus on quality, raise a handful of heavily-enhanced minions (preferably from exotic monsters with great stats and/or handy abilities), and micromanage them for best effect.

2) Be an undead master, focus on quantity, raise a ton of weak minions (preferably from common humanoid monsters so a fireball or two will give you plenty of corpses to work with), and throw them in the general direction of your enemies.

3) Reanimate things sparingly, keep a handful of undead around of varying quality, but focus on the cursing/life draining/soul manipulation/etc. aspect of necromancy primarily.

If you're going with door #1, you'll probably want to take Corpsecrafter and maybe one or two others in that tree, but your undead are going to start out pretty badass already so your feats and items are better spent on whatever else you're going to be doing in conjunction with your minions.  For door #2, you'll probably want to take as many Corpsecrafter-related feats as possible, because applying a moderate buff to a few hundred normally-weak undead mooks makes for a huge boost in quality.  For door #3, even Corpsecrafter is probably going to be a waste.

You can, of course, try to split the difference and have a few powerful and exotic undead "generals," a mob of weaker undead, and plenty of self-buffs and debuffs, but while that strategy works well for a BBEG (who's probably going to have several levels on a party of PCs, undead generals acquired by plot and fiat, plenty of time and gold to burn on animation and crafting, etc.), as a PC you should really pick one route and focus on it.

The one way I could potentially see the split-the-difference route working out is to lean heavily on your artifact.  If your character has a "Dread Crown of the Lich King" item made of gnarled black ice that grants you Energy Sub (Cold) + Lord of the Uttercold, the entire Corpsecrafter line, and free or discounted animate dead a few times a day, that makes you halfway decent at routes #3, #1, and #2, respectively, so spreading your resources around at that point would actually be the most effective route.  But again, that depends entirely on your DM, so check with him on that first.

Offline Nanashi

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Re: 3.5 making a Lick King
« Reply #2 on: February 22, 2020, 01:55:39 AM »
I think it's a typo, but are there any sources of a lick based attack in 3.5?

Offline zook1shoe

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Re: 3.5 making a Lick King
« Reply #3 on: February 22, 2020, 02:50:23 AM »
mohrg
dire toad
« Last Edit: February 22, 2020, 02:52:46 AM by zook1shoe »
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Offline Zellsantal

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Re: 3.5 making a Lick King
« Reply #4 on: February 22, 2020, 10:11:26 AM »
I think it's a typo, but are there any sources of a lick based attack in 3.5?

Not sure really, might want to look at the lick monster/ template.

mohrg
dire toad

I can see the mohrg for an undead minion but not sure what you had in mind for dire toad, did you have something in mind with that?
-------

Quote
There are two "official" ways to do that.  You can go the Metamagic Rod route by figuring out the price for a greater metamagic rod of cold substitution and  greater metamagic rod of uttercold, adding the markup for combining items and using an unusual slot, and add that onto whatever other powers the item has; the pro for that is that it's pretty solid rules-wise, the con is that that's pretty expensive and only 3/day each.

The other option is to use the Arms & Equipment Guide rules on making items that grant feats, which says they should "cost 10,000 gp, plus another 5,000 gp to 10,000 gp per prerequisite."  (There's a previous paragraph in that sidebar regarding metamagic feats, but since it mentions increasing price due to increased spell levels, that seems like it's intended to apply to building metamagic into other item effects).  The pro for that approach is that you effectively have the feat and can apply it to all your spells, the con is that it's heavily dependent on DM judgment.  Personally, for a thematic and not-ridiculously-powerful combo like that I wouldn't think twice before approving it, but your DM might have other ideas.

What page on Arms & Equipment Guide? I've looked and cant seem to find it unless I am looking at the wrong book. Other then that I am not looking for three times a day, I am more so looking for continuous, which after looking at the rules in the DMG again I think I found part of what I'm looking for. However I feel I might be missing something for it seems way too cheap.

Use-activated or continuous--- Spell level x caster level x 2000 then divide it in half if the spell is 24 hour duration or greater.

Would that sound about right for making a cloak, hell couldn't find a price for a normal cloak but for a good one I am guessing 1 gold would do it but still that doesn't seem to make the price any higher. If what I put down is right then for one of the metamagic feats it would only cost 1k? Otherwise if I am missing some factors please point them out. From another link I did found something where the lost if you have metamagic like +1-6 and said something about starting cost was 3,000 but they didn't bother with the +0's but that also was to making rods not wondrous items.

OR

To make it more simple, lets say I have a cloak of charisma +2 which is 4,000 in starting price and I want to add more stuff to it to make it like the two feats I was talking about. If I did the math right from above would it basely only add 4,000 more to the cost or is there more I need to add?

Quote
The DMG has standard price formulas for that.  Constant effects are [CL] × [spell level] × 2,000 gp, times 2 for the original spell having a minutes/level duration.

I am more so looking for it to have it at all times, no charges so would it work out the same or what would I have to add to make it unlimited duration?

Other then that the corpsecrafter path and making super undead feels more interesting them making loads of weaker ones so ill work on that alone
« Last Edit: February 22, 2020, 10:23:33 AM by Zellsantal »

Offline Nanshork

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Re: 3.5 making a Lick King
« Reply #5 on: February 22, 2020, 11:49:09 AM »
Lich is the undead necromancer template.

Lick is something that you do with your tongue.

Mohrg and Dire Toad have Lick attacks.

Offline Eldritch_Lord

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Re: 3.5 making a Lick King
« Reply #6 on: February 22, 2020, 08:16:52 PM »
What page on Arms & Equipment Guide? I've looked and cant seem to find it unless I am looking at the wrong book.

Page 128, the "Magic Items that Grant Feats" sidebar.

Quote
Use-activated or continuous--- Spell level x caster level x 2000 then divide it in half if the spell is 24 hour duration or greater.

Would that sound about right for making a cloak, hell couldn't find a price for a normal cloak but for a good one I am guessing 1 gold would do it but still that doesn't seem to make the price any higher. If what I put down is right then for one of the metamagic feats it would only cost 1k?

Nope, a feat is not a spell, you can't just say that a feat is basically a CL 1 spell with a 24 hour duration and price things based on that.

As noted, as per the A&EG sidebar your cloak would cost at minimum 45,000 gp: 20,000gp for Energy Substitution (Cold) [10K base, 2×5K for two prerequisites] + 25,000gp for Energy Substitution (Cold) [10K base, 3×5K for three prerequisites]...or possibly 35,000 gp if your DM is willing to knock off one 5K given that Energy Substitution (Cold) is one of the LotU prereqs and another 5K given that Energy Sub automatically lets you fulfill the "can cast a [Cold] spell" prereq.  And that's assuming that he doesn't rule that any of those prereqs are the 10K variety instead of the 5K variety, or add a markup for combining two effects and/or putting them in the cloak slot.

And that's still a pretty great deal, considering that a greater rod of cold substitution is 24,300 gp, so if one assumes that the cost is identical for all metamagic feats with a given level adjustment then that plus a greater rod of the uttercold would be 48,600 gp for just 3 daily uses.

Quote
To make it more simple, lets say I have a cloak of charisma +2 which is 4,000 in starting price and I want to add more stuff to it to make it like the two feats I was talking about. If I did the math right from above would it basely only add 4,000 more to the cost or is there more I need to add?

As per MIC rules for combining items, yes, you can add on the Cha +2 to any other cloak without any other markup because it counts as a "common effect" (see page 234).  For any other effects, there's a markup, usually 50%, for combining two dissimilar effects in one item, more if you're moving around body slots.

Quote
I am more so looking for it to have it at all times, no charges so would it work out the same or what would I have to add to make it unlimited duration?

That formula is for a continuous effect already.

Offline zook1shoe

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Re: 3.5 making a Lick King
« Reply #7 on: February 23, 2020, 03:40:53 PM »
Nan got it ;-)
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