Min/Max Boards

Gaming Discussion => D&D 3.5 and Pathfinder => Min/Max 3.x => Topic started by: Cortillaen on February 18, 2021, 12:46:53 AM

Title: [3.5] Character review/optimizing (already 3rd-level, Gestalt, lotsa houserules)
Post by: Cortillaen on February 18, 2021, 12:46:53 AM
Hello all!  I've lurked around these boards for a while, mostly for PF1 content, but I finally got a chance to try some 3.5 (sorta; you'll see).  I've already got a build planned out, but, as this is my first time with D&D3.5, I'd love some feedback in evaluating for things I might have missed or screwed up.

The game is already running and in the lv3-4 range (so no changes to race, ability scores, or already-made choices) and will supposedly get into the upper teens, maybe to 20.  All WotC sources are allowed as well as most 3PP and even homebrew, pending GM review. 

First off, the game this is for has a lot of houserules, many of which influence character-building, so I'll include those here.  And please no opinions about the houserules; I've expressed reservations about some of them to the GM already, and they aren't changing:

I don't know hard details of most of the other players' plans, but I can give a their current states:

I joined a bit later and was told the party could needed both magical support and Divine magic.  After spending entirely too long reading through a hundred classes/PrCs, I decided to do a hardcore theurge build since the gestalt rules remove the only real limitation (and since PF theurges are just sad).  I want to avoid some of the worst cheese I've read about (Archivist abuse, Factotum gestalt blitz-casting, Persisting divine super-buffs, etc) but 1) have a huge array of options for whatever the party needs, and 2) have some big tricks I can pull out if the party gets into a bind.  Kind of a tightrope act of subjectivity, I know.

The main thing is I don't want to build and super-specialize for some game-breaking wombo-combo and be vastly less effective outside of that trick.  My goal is to be a super-generalist using a wide range of buffs, debuffs, battlefield control, SoSs, and some SoLs in combat.  Blasting is out almost entirely thanks to banning Evocation and the Spell Points rules nerfing it anyway.  I'll focus on making the battle's outcome a foregone conclusion but let the combatants actually get us there.

As for the campaign, the GM appears to have a habit (probably 5e-induced, I think) of treating high-threat encounters as the standard and has had to backpedal a couple times to avoid TPKs (an encounter last level with 2 Blink Dogs, 1 incorporeal WIS-damaging undead, and 4 2nd-level Wizards; this level we had a Drider + 6 Araneas that started out surrounding us at about 20ft away).  Outside of combat, it's a very freeform campaign involving monster races trying to get refugees somewhere safe and eventually building up to strike back at a human empire.

Where I currently stand is a Freyinsar (https://dnd-wiki.org/wiki/Freyinsar_(3.5e_Race)) Wizard3//Binder1/Factotum1/Warlock1.  Ability scores are probably not surprising at STR 8, DEX 8, CON 14, INT 22, WIS 10, CHA 13.  I plan to advance both sides of the gestalt pretty evenly so I don't just ramp up the spellcasting power of the main side too fast.  Here's my leveling plan and how the HD/saves/BAB stack up (bonuses from ability scores not included, and it's an image because trying to format this table here is not a punishment I want to endure):
(https://i.imgur.com/ekKECIp.png)
Relevant factors:
And here's my planned feats:
big exhale  If you've read this far, thank you for your attention.  I've had no actual experience with 3.5 before this game, so if I've missed something important, please call it out.  Likewise, I'll be happy to fill in any information I've forgotten to include.  I'm open to ideas on changing the class progressions, feats, or anything else, though I'd like to stick with the general theme of a support-oriented generalist theurge.

I'm heading to bed momentarily, but I'll check in after work tomorrow.  Thanks again to everyone who has taken the time to read this!
Title: Re: [3.5] Character review/optimizing (already 3rd-level, Gestalt, lotsa houserules)
Post by: Skyrock on February 18, 2021, 01:00:16 PM
Is setting-specific material allowed? As you already went through the hoops of gaining the giant type, the Primordial Giant template from Secrets (p.81) could be really useful to you just for the stat adjustments. The SLAs and the rest are just icing.

Your abilities are vastly more varied than the rest of the party. It won't matter so much at ECL 4, but if the game progresses to mid and higher levels you might need to pull your punches and try not to overshadow the other party members. Fortunately they are mostly beatsticks, who can be easily made happy by dropping buffs, debuffs, battlefield control and other spells that make them better beatsticks without you stealing their thunder.

With the prospensity of high-threat encounters, keep some escape spells ready to save the party and fight another day if necessary - teleports, walls, shelter, that kind of thing. Grease and Expeditious Retreat make for the el cheapo versions at your current ECL.

EDIT:
  • 3rd Level - Iron Will (confirmed with GM I can retrain to Sculpt Spell after the first level of Ur-Priest)
An Otyugh Hole (Complete Scoundrel) could get you the feat for free. Not likely if the DM is stingy with rewards, but worth a look.
Title: Re: [3.5] Character review/optimizing (already 3rd-level, Gestalt, lotsa houserules)
Post by: Cortillaen on February 18, 2021, 10:06:29 PM
Thanks for the feedback!

Is setting-specific material allowed? As you already went through the hoops of gaining the giant type, the Primordial Giant template from Secrets (p.81) could be really useful to you just for the stat adjustments. The SLAs and the rest are just icing.
That sounds really interesting and the GM has allowed a couple other setting-specific things.  Unfortunately, I don't have that book, and I can't change my race at this point anyway.  It would be pretty crazy getting an extra +4 INT for this build, though :lol  Maybe I'll see if he'll let me pursue a transformation later or something since that would be in-line with the character's goals as well.

Your abilities are vastly more varied than the rest of the party. It won't matter so much at ECL 4, but if the game progresses to mid and higher levels you might need to pull your punches and try not to overshadow the other party members. Fortunately they are mostly beatsticks, who can be easily made happy by dropping buffs, debuffs, battlefield control and other spells that make them better beatsticks without you stealing their thunder.
Heh, I might have gone slightly overboard, but this is the first time I've spotted a 3.5 game that was recruiting and at a time I could do.  I almost never see 3.5 games recruiting at all, unfortunately.  It's a shame since I'd love to experiment more with the incredible array of class options out there.
In any case, I plan to spend a lot of my casting power boosting rest of the party (and I just noticed Greater Magic Weapon and Magic Vestment both scale with my broken CL, so they'll appreciate those) once I get a few more levels under my belt.  I'll save the nastier tricks for when we're struggling.

With the prospensity of high-threat encounters, keep some escape spells ready to save the party and fight another day if necessary - teleports, walls, shelter, that kind of thing. Grease and Expeditious Retreat make for the el cheapo versions at your current ECL.
Do you have any specific recommendations outside of sorta the standard Dimension Door, Teleport, and various Wall of Whatever spells?  Luckily, the Spell Points rules removes much of the opportunity cost of having emergency spells ready.

An Otyugh Hole (Complete Scoundrel) could get you the feat for free. Not likely if the DM is stingy with rewards, but worth a look.
With the ridiculous Will stacking going on, I'm not too worried about missing it, and I doubt the GM would allow it without a pretty high chance of death.
Title: Re: [3.5] Character review/optimizing (already 3rd-level, Gestalt, lotsa houserules)
Post by: Skyrock on February 19, 2021, 09:05:41 AM
Do you have any specific recommendations outside of sorta the standard Dimension Door, Teleport, and various Wall of Whatever spells?  Luckily, the Spell Points rules removes much of the opportunity cost of having emergency spells ready.
Those are the staple escape spells.

The Tiny Hut line can also be a life-saver that is worth having prepped for whenever you really really need a really really secure break real quick.
Title: Re: [3.5] Character review/optimizing (already 3rd-level, Gestalt, lotsa houserules)
Post by: Keldar on February 20, 2021, 05:26:35 PM
Benign Transposition (Level 1, Spell Compendium), is good for bail-outs on the tactical level.  Also useful for using someone with a charger build to help move a pokey character into place.
Title: Re: [3.5] Character review/optimizing (already 3rd-level, Gestalt, lotsa houserules)
Post by: Cortillaen on February 22, 2021, 12:07:31 AM
Thanks, that one is fascinating.  So many uses come to mind.  We don't have a charger, but that would be hilarious to have someone charging, me swapping them for another character who can then full-attack instead of moving in, and then the charger just charges in again.  Especially once I can quicken it, it just redefines battlefield positioning.  Too bad the GM swapped the 3.5 threat/AoO rules for 5e ones and neutered area protection.

Random:  I just realized the Anima Mage capstone is utterly insane.  Cast any spell, no matter the cast time, as an Immediate action.  Even just once per day, the sheer shenanigans possible are mind-boggling.
Title: Re: [3.5] Character review/optimizing (already 3rd-level, Gestalt, lotsa houserules)
Post by: Keldar on February 22, 2021, 01:35:24 AM
Those weird AoO rules just mean the best weapon for area denial are bog standard pole arms.  Eat your heart out spiked chain, longspear still gets to whack people moving into the donut hole.  Suck it dragons, a guy with a glaive is more annoying to close with!  Embiggen for extra annoyance.
Title: Re: [3.5] Character review/optimizing (already 3rd-level, Gestalt, lotsa houserules)
Post by: Cortillaen on February 22, 2021, 08:36:40 PM
Those weird AoO rules just mean the best weapon for area denial are bog standard pole arms.  Eat your heart out spiked chain, longspear still gets to whack people moving into the donut hole.  Suck it dragons, a guy with a glaive is more annoying to close with!  Embiggen for extra annoyance.
Presumably, yeah, anything that doesn't threaten adjacent squares gets to AoO on the way in, but I expect this GM won't run them that way (just based on his "that's too complicated" rulings so far).  I expect he'll just houserule fill in the donut.

Reach has actually become counterproductive for defense since the martials can't AoO someone on the way in, only on their way out of their threatened area.  So having longer reach just makes a larger area they can move around in without provoking, meaning casters have to stay even further away (just setting them up for inevitable ambush).  And Combat Reflexes is vastly less useful since you will never get more than one AoO on a creature going past you.  Makes staying alive as a low-level caster even more challenging than the usual being made of paper.