Min/Max Boards

The first try
So, first one, the initiator-iaido guy. It doesn't seem able to measure up unfortunately, and it's a shame as it was my favorite concept. Even combining manouvers and iaijutsu focus, even using maneuvers for damage (as opposed as making the opponent flat footed) it doesn't work well.

Lvl 5:
Considering a feycraft one handed sword (1d6) that counts as light for flick of the wrist, +5 to Cha and 10 ranks in Iaijitsu Focus, I'd be able to hit with Soaring Rapotr Strike (most damage for the level) and a 10 on the IF roll, it would do 1d6+6d6+3d6, so 10-60 damage with an average of 35, so it looks balanced with the rogue... but...

Lvl 11: (I'm going to consider level 11 here instead of 10 as there's a big damage boost there)
Same weapon, +6 Cha, +37 to Iaijitsu focus (base skill with item familiar, cha, +10 magic item) and using the same Soaring Raptor Strike as it didn't get any newer manouvers...
1d6+6d6+8d6+8x6 the damage would be 63-138, average of 100.5

The build  in progress:


The problem with this:
This lags behind quite a bit already at level 10 and it's not really enough damage. Plus from here on, the damage doesn't increase all that much anymore.
But I don't seem to be able to improve the damage in any significant way. Battle Leap could be an option, but doesn't mesh all that well and it's a bit situational.
Barring any brilliant idea, I think I'll have to discard this build and starting to work on the Magus variant 

Pathfinder progression, I'll add that bit of info to the op.

To be honest I'd rather stay away from rogue-like characters as we already have one in the party. I'm just using the rogue damage to balance the character in the context of the party.

The rogue of course has also craven and a couple of levels of swordsage anmong other things.

If there weren't already a rogue in the party I would have gone for a rogue/wizard/spellthief/daggerspell mage or something like that

I need a level dip in something with good will saves and knowledge (planes)  in the skill list, hide would be a plus. One or two levels makes no difference as far as initiator level goes.

As far as what I wanted to do...  The concept I started with wa to make a character to protect the party by blocking approaching enemies and attacks directed at the party,  while being beefy/self sustaining enough. Bonus point for out of combat usefulness. Bonus points for being cool doing it.

I mean counterspelling or mage slayer + interrupting with an aoo is a great and safe way to stop a fireball, but shieldbashing it away is way cooler.

So, new campaign hopefully starting soonish and I've achieved, for the first time in my eternal career of arcane caster, the spot of the fifth wheel of the party!
Unfortunately (not really) years of playing arcane batman (except for brief occasion of silliness and damage dealing) left me with the pathologic need of characters that can cast and do battlefield control. Also my experience on building anything that's not a wizard is not what it used to be since I haven't been playing (nor building) for the longest time.
This brings me to my actual tentative build a lockdown build with cheese on top:
Half-Ogre from Savage species, LA bought off. (Might want to try to use the Half-Ogre template some kind of Human if I need the extra feat, but I'd rather avoid it)
Crusader 3/Dragonfire Adept 2/Ur-Priest 2/Ruby Knight Vindicator 10/whatever 3, maybe Prestige Paladin with Serenity for some bonuses if it fits (we're playing in a custom setting so all PrC have been victims of the Re-Fluffinator 9000, so this works fine, it is also LN)
Feats are still a bit hazy, Combat Expertise, Entangling Breath and Practiced Spellcaster for sure, then I guess a mix of lockdown-y things like Large and in Charge, Mage Slayer and maybe Imperious Command if I decide to go the fear route.
The issue is that it just doesn't feel FUN, it doesn't do any really cool stuff. I want to reflect rays in the face of enemy mages, to intercept attacks on allies as immediate actions, to laugh at enemies attacks uselessly sliding on his AC. Basically to FEEL powerful without necessarily doing Tons of Damage™
What's available: Basically everything. Dragon, all books of all settings as long as they're WOTC, all Dragonlance book (even non WOTC), all website articles, etc. The only thing I cannot use are psionics and aberrations  (because of the setting). PC can't ave psionic powers, psionic points and not even the psionic subtype. Also they can't be aberrations. I COULD poly into one, but I'd be killed on sight.

I fully realize the build is good enough, but any help in making it do more cool looking things would be appreciated. It's powerful enough that even if it gets weaker in the name of badassery I'm perfectly fine with that: it's a noble cause!

The way PF was explained to me was like 3.5 is a very flexible tree limb and you can bend it a lot and still hold stuff together before it breaks.  PF is more rigid, so you can get a little give out of it when you push things, but go just a little bit further and the whole thing breaks apart.

That's what I noticed too... it goes from "slightly better than the base class" to "this thing makes no sense broken" without any middle ground Considering how I love playing in that middle ground, that's a really bad thing for me. I do see how 3.P would be fun tho (as it was intended to be played from what I read around).

Edit: Also. what do you mean you want more versitility?
Or, what parts of the game would you like more versitility in?
Do you want skill points to raise diplomacy so you can negotiate prices?(non combat)
Or do you want combat versatility
You can have both, but the more you raise stats in 1 section, the less resources you will have to build up another one.

Versatility as in having characters that can do LOTS of things REALLY well.
I'm thinking back on an old build I played of a Shadowcaster that (on top of being a wizard and thus being already able to do other people jobs out of the box) could basically spontaneously cast whole schools of magic (evocation and a lot of conjuration with shadowcasting, divination with the ACF, etc), do it earlier than other mages with heighten shenaningans, while being a skillmonkey, while being better at sneaking than most rogues (skill bonuses, darkstalker, shadow subtype and all that).
Ur-Priest/Ruby Knight Vindicator is the same... great melee class, a lot better than a fighter or anything like it with 9th level manouvers (albeit delayed), that can cast 9th level cleric spells and persist buffs.

Versatility of the system itself is nice too, like getting subpar ideas (like Save or suck spells) or classes (I'm sure something can be done for the monk too) and putting enough cheese on top until they become actually good.

Remember that being a melee you still need flight and ideally some form of move-action teleport / freedom of movement, or you'll be rendered patetically useless in most combats.

I'm unsure about this since what I played mostly a Swordsage using maneuvers as ways to get flatfooted and generic utility and not for attacking, but I think that Iaijitsu Master might be worth bringing at level 8 to have two strikes as a standard action when you attack, doubling your damage. I don't think there's any strike that can get you the same increase in damage as a 9d6+9xCha.
If you plan to attack mostly with manouvers tho, you are better off leaving it at 5 levels.

Quote from: Emanresu on May 24, 2014, 09:18:23 PM

dm just rejected the pc build...only 1 class of tier 3 or higher allowed. Now that makes me laugh!

That doesn't make a lot of sense. Multiclassing a bunch of Tier 3s is only ever going to be a Tier 3, and Multiclassing Tier 1s or 2s only makes them weaker.

Yup it doesn't. But that sort of thing happens often around. It's a bad case "I don't know how to optimize and I'm scared of it, but I found this tiered list and I'm gonna use it without having a clue how it actually works". A bunch of DMs mastering at the game club I go to have it.
Usually it ends up not working, creating an even bigger gap between Tier 1 and lower tier classes and the Cleric 20 guy gets called a "filthy powerplayer". Strife ensues.

So far I managed to "save" two DM out of 7-8 by explaining the issue to them.
If you're lucky enough that your DM listens, you should explain it to him as soon as you can.

Quote Jack on the Unarmed Swordsage, it doesn't clearly states that it gets modified, but it wouldn't make sense if it wasn't.

As far as Mettle goes, I'd get it from either Pious Templar (BoED? unsure) or Witch Slayer (Tome of Magic), plus if you plan to get divine grace on a Wis-based caster you should get (if the book is avaiable) Serenity from Dragon Compendium to use WIS for Divine Grace and other paladin skills. (I seem to remember there's also a similar feat from some 3rd party Dragonlance splatbook, but I'm not sure)

Also check out Healing Hymn from Complete Champion.

This is huge. Also Dragonfire Inspiration isn't bad and there's a prc that lets you sing 2 sons at once with a short dip and a bit of a CL loss, can't remember the name atm since I'm away from books.

Psionic Open Chakra

This is news to me. Need to do something with it.