The Politics Thread v2

[awaken_D_M_golem]

I think Trump is gonna win Florida, and
the sh!t is really gonna hit the fan this week.


Trump's family will get as much scrutiny as Obama's soon.
So far as I can tell via the wikipedia stuff that's accurately sourced :

His mother is an immigrant.
His older sister may be an "anchor baby".
His father might be an "anchor baby" but probably not.
His father really did get arrested at a KKK rally (but not charged).
His father's older sister is most likely an immigrant.
His father's mother is an immigrant.
His father's father operated an actual Whorehouse
(yes indeed) and was a convicted Tax Dodger and
Military Service Dodger for Germany, and expelled.

By Trump's own standards, Obama's mother
is way more "legitimately" American than
anyone in his family.  Trump is not quite as
much a Hypocrite as Bobby Jindal, but close.

 

[dman11235]

Drumpf is also potentially going to be charged with inciting a riot by the NC police.

[SolEiji]

I'm being silly... 

https://media.giphy.com/media/3o7abkti7UphSopcl2/giphy.gif

http://i.imgur.com/qyMAatH.gifv

[awaken_D_M_golem]

Drumpf ...

Heh, I saw that John Oliver thing, funny stuff.
I think the local German media have researched that some already.
They'll turn up some interesting stuff on their own.

His grandfather's immigration form says :  "Friedrich Trumpf".
But his father is/was generally known as Fred Trump (same thing though).

... is also potentially going to be charged with inciting a riot by the NC police.

One can hope, eh?

[awaken_D_M_golem]

I'm being silly... 
...
http://i.imgur.com/qyMAatH.gifv

  ... vicariously joyful.

Oh wait-a-minute, somebody'll do that one with Hillary too, but could be either wrastler.

[dman11235]

fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu

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uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu

Well that was depressing.

I can take solace in that several were razor thin losses (so little change there), but narrative-wise.... fuck.

[dman11235]

I really don't understand how she hasn't been doing worse with liberal voters.  She's at best a moderate.  I mean, she's been taking on all of Bernie's stances (while simultaneously saying he's too extreme and an idiot who can't get anything done and also gets things done by making deals).  No, well, I do understand.  People are stupid.  More accurately, they don't know what's best for them or who's who.  I remember people coming out of the polling places in some states (particularly the South) were asked why they voted for who, and they said "I have no idea who Sanders is".  He's getting the independents.  He's the best chance for the Democrats to win the WH in November.  He has a stronger record for liberal ideals, and Democrat ideals.  He's actually been in civil rights marches.  He supported Spectrum rights over a decade before she came out supporting whole heartedly DOMA, and that was a decade before she said, unequivocally, that marriage was 1 man 1 woman.  The worst part is her supporters.  Especially her big names, making a fool of themselves to convince people that Sanders is anti-feminist, anti-civil rights, anti-*insert Democrat talking point here* including God coming out in an ad saying she's supported by people like Freddie Grey's daughter.  You might notice that that's the SAME daughter than very vocally supported Sanders.  Somehow she's still for the death penalty, although I expect her to "evolve" on that issue soon enough.

All that ranting aside, I'm still voting for her in the general if she's the nominee.  Because I can't morally not vote when that lack of a vote might help allow an unabashed fascist into power, AND give him the congress to actually do things.

[SolEiji]

I really don't understand how she hasn't been doing worse with liberal voters.  She's at best a moderate.  I mean, she's been taking on all of Bernie's stances (while simultaneously saying he's too extreme and an idiot who can't get anything done and also gets things done by making deals).  No, well, I do understand.  People are stupid.  More accurately, they don't know what's best for them or who's who.  I remember people coming out of the polling places in some states (particularly the South) were asked why they voted for who, and they said "I have no idea who Sanders is".  He's getting the independents.  He's the best chance for the Democrats to win the WH in November.  He has a stronger record for liberal ideals, and Democrat ideals.  He's actually been in civil rights marches.  He supported Spectrum rights over a decade before she came out supporting whole heartedly DOMA, and that was a decade before she said, unequivocally, that marriage was 1 man 1 woman.  The worst part is her supporters.  Especially her big names, making a fool of themselves to convince people that Sanders is anti-feminist, anti-civil rights, anti-*insert Democrat talking point here* including God coming out in an ad saying she's supported by people like Freddie Grey's daughter.  You might notice that that's the SAME daughter than very vocally supported Sanders.  Somehow she's still for the death penalty, although I expect her to "evolve" on that issue soon enough.

All that ranting aside, I'm still voting for her in the general if she's the nominee.  Because I can't morally not vote when that lack of a vote might help allow an unabashed fascist into power, AND give him the congress to actually do things.

I know those feels.  I'm puzzled by her poor showing and Sanders strong showing seeming not to translate into votes.  In Florida it made sense; closed primaries and strict registration.  Same as I predict in NY.  Here, at least I can still find some comfort in this.

It's not too much out.  318 behind at the moment.

I'm more worried about momentum suffering, causing underperformance.

Ohio puzzles me.  News on the ground does not match the votes.

The near losses aren't too bad but are narratively painful.

If Hillary wins, I won't vote for her.  Probably going Stien.  I can endure 4 years of Trump and hope some backlash occurs, but it won't be on my hands.

[dman11235]

I don't think I can endure 4 years of him, if he actually tries to follow through on the things he's said.  I mean, he's literally pulling from Hitler's playbook.  If he gets elected, it could be much,much more than 4 years we're paying.  Even if he's just conservative economically, it could be many more than 4.  It's not like we've stopped feeling the problems from Bush, or even Reagan.

And nothing about this election cycle is easy.  You have normally very good, relatively unbiased news organizations acting like Fox, an avid racist leading opening in a party after insulting the entire party, and on the good side the first Jewish or female major candidate to run from the two parties, and the first Jewish to win a primary.

[bhu]

It makes sense because Bernies supporters are the young.  Youthful voters dont turn out in any great numbers in primaries and in non presidential elections.  Bernie likely has significant support, they just aren't motivated to leave their couch.

[bhu]

I don't think I can endure 4 years of him, if he actually tries to follow through on the things he's said.  I mean, he's literally pulling from Hitler's playbook.  If he gets elected, it could be much,much more than 4 years we're paying.  Even if he's just conservative economically, it could be many more than 4.  It's not like we've stopped feeling the problems from Bush, or even Reagan.

And nothing about this election cycle is easy.  You have normally very good, relatively unbiased news organizations acting like Fox, an avid racist leading opening in a party after insulting the entire party, and on the good side the first Jewish or female major candidate to run from the two parties, and the first Jewish to win a primary.

Trump is many things, but an actual conservative is not one of them.  Among one of the policies he's mentioned is a universal 35% tarrif on all goods entering the U.S.  That would put us back in the Depression overnight, and the resulting trade war would sink the world economy, which means it's quite likely he'd be shot.

[dman11235]

I know plenty of older Bernie supporters.  Like, mostly 30's and 40's.  I haven't been able to do much (28) yet to support him because I'm not in a geographic area to do much, other than internet stuff.  It's true that there is an age issue/gap in the support, and it's going to bite the Democrats in the butt later on.  And I can't speak really about motivation to leave couch.  Every Sanders supporter I know in voting states has voted.  One issue is the closed vs open primaries, he's pulling a lot of Independents support (because duh).  That's not available in places like Florida.

And none of the Republicans are actual conservatives.  But there's a reason why I qualified that statement like I did.  I'm still not 100% convinced he's not doing some sort of performance art about how everything is awful.

[Raineh Daze]

I really don't understand how she hasn't been doing worse with liberal voters.  She's at best a moderate.  I mean, she's been taking on all of Bernie's stances (while simultaneously saying he's too extreme and an idiot who can't get anything done and also gets things done by making deals).  No, well, I do understand.  People are stupid.  More accurately, they don't know what's best for them or who's who.  I remember people coming out of the polling places in some states (particularly the South) were asked why they voted for who, and they said "I have no idea who Sanders is".  He's getting the independents.  He's the best chance for the Democrats to win the WH in November.  He has a stronger record for liberal ideals, and Democrat ideals.  He's actually been in civil rights marches.  He supported Spectrum rights over a decade before she came out supporting whole heartedly DOMA, and that was a decade before she said, unequivocally, that marriage was 1 man 1 woman.  The worst part is her supporters.  Especially her big names, making a fool of themselves to convince people that Sanders is anti-feminist, anti-civil rights, anti-*insert Democrat talking point here* including God coming out in an ad saying she's supported by people like Freddie Grey's daughter.  You might notice that that's the SAME daughter than very vocally supported Sanders.  Somehow she's still for the death penalty, although I expect her to "evolve" on that issue soon enough.

All that ranting aside, I'm still voting for her in the general if she's the nominee.  Because I can't morally not vote when that lack of a vote might help allow an unabashed fascist into power, AND give him the congress to actually do things.

I know those feels.  I'm puzzled by her poor showing and Sanders strong showing seeming not to translate into votes.  In Florida it made sense; closed primaries and strict registration.  Same as I predict in NY.  Here, at least I can still find some comfort in this.

It's not too much out.  318 behind at the moment.

I'm more worried about momentum suffering, causing underperformance.

Ohio puzzles me.  News on the ground does not match the votes.

The near losses aren't too bad but are narratively painful.

If Hillary wins, I won't vote for her.  Probably going Stien.  I can endure 4 years of Trump and hope some backlash occurs, but it won't be on my hands.

Given that it's FPTP system with stupidly entrenched parties, I fail to see how doing the equivalent of not voting will help matters.

[Keldar]

I really don't understand how she hasn't been doing worse with liberal voters.  She's at best a moderate.  I mean, she's been taking on all of Bernie's stances (while simultaneously saying he's too extreme and an idiot who can't get anything done and also gets things done by making deals).  No, well, I do understand.  People are stupid.  More accurately, they don't know what's best for them or who's who.  I remember people coming out of the polling places in some states (particularly the South) were asked why they voted for who, and they said "I have no idea who Sanders is".  He's getting the independents.  He's the best chance for the Democrats to win the WH in November.  He has a stronger record for liberal ideals, and Democrat ideals.  He's actually been in civil rights marches.  He supported Spectrum rights over a decade before she came out supporting whole heartedly DOMA, and that was a decade before she said, unequivocally, that marriage was 1 man 1 woman.  The worst part is her supporters.  Especially her big names, making a fool of themselves to convince people that Sanders is anti-feminist, anti-civil rights, anti-*insert Democrat talking point here* including God coming out in an ad saying she's supported by people like Freddie Grey's daughter.  You might notice that that's the SAME daughter than very vocally supported Sanders.  Somehow she's still for the death penalty, although I expect her to "evolve" on that issue soon enough.

All that ranting aside, I'm still voting for her in the general if she's the nominee.  Because I can't morally not vote when that lack of a vote might help allow an unabashed fascist into power, AND give him the congress to actually do things.

The answer is while the Republicans have spent the last few decades swinging ever more to the extremist right and paving the way for Trump's takeover, the Democrats have been cleaving tightly to the "middle" in a drive to appear bipartisan.  Their voters are still operating under the idea that this is a normal election where the moderates will do the best in a general election.  Failing to understand that the Republicans have nuked the idea of moderate from orbit.  (Along with themselves.)  And are probably in denial that Trump is the presumptive Republican candidate, and that Clinton is exactly the sort of establishment candidate he can trounce.  The Dems need Sanders and the young voters he can actually get to turn out, but too many of them are still playing by last century's playbook.

[phaedrusxy]

It's far from over for Bernie.

[awaken_D_M_golem]

Ben Ginsburg said to Rachel Maddow that Delegates can be bought (really!) , and she was flabbergasted.

Kasich reportedly hired (no source just yet) both of the lead Lawyers from both sides of the contested '76 Repub convention Ford>Reagan.

This year is absolutely crazy.


Bernie's got plenty of money to keep going, so why not.

[SolEiji]

I really don't understand how she hasn't been doing worse with liberal voters.  She's at best a moderate.  I mean, she's been taking on all of Bernie's stances (while simultaneously saying he's too extreme and an idiot who can't get anything done and also gets things done by making deals).  No, well, I do understand.  People are stupid.  More accurately, they don't know what's best for them or who's who.  I remember people coming out of the polling places in some states (particularly the South) were asked why they voted for who, and they said "I have no idea who Sanders is".  He's getting the independents.  He's the best chance for the Democrats to win the WH in November.  He has a stronger record for liberal ideals, and Democrat ideals.  He's actually been in civil rights marches.  He supported Spectrum rights over a decade before she came out supporting whole heartedly DOMA, and that was a decade before she said, unequivocally, that marriage was 1 man 1 woman.  The worst part is her supporters.  Especially her big names, making a fool of themselves to convince people that Sanders is anti-feminist, anti-civil rights, anti-*insert Democrat talking point here* including God coming out in an ad saying she's supported by people like Freddie Grey's daughter.  You might notice that that's the SAME daughter than very vocally supported Sanders.  Somehow she's still for the death penalty, although I expect her to "evolve" on that issue soon enough.

All that ranting aside, I'm still voting for her in the general if she's the nominee.  Because I can't morally not vote when that lack of a vote might help allow an unabashed fascist into power, AND give him the congress to actually do things.

I know those feels.  I'm puzzled by her poor showing and Sanders strong showing seeming not to translate into votes.  In Florida it made sense; closed primaries and strict registration.  Same as I predict in NY.  Here, at least I can still find some comfort in this.

It's not too much out.  318 behind at the moment.

I'm more worried about momentum suffering, causing underperformance.

Ohio puzzles me.  News on the ground does not match the votes.

The near losses aren't too bad but are narratively painful.

If Hillary wins, I won't vote for her.  Probably going Stien.  I can endure 4 years of Trump and hope some backlash occurs, but it won't be on my hands.

Given that it's FPTP system with stupidly entrenched parties, I fail to see how doing the equivalent of not voting will help matters.

It's a tactical choice.  Stien will lose, yes, but that's not the point.  If enough vote for Jill Stein and she gets 5%, she gets FEC funding.  In other words, it makes Green viable in 2020, poised to take control after the GOP explodes and the DNC becomes hated as an actual option.

Also, the whole "no blood on my hands" thing.

I'll still work to get Sanders-esque types during midterms though.

[Raineh Daze]

Your plan is to vote for an extreme outside candidate in the event of Trump against Clinton, in the hope that this will get 5% of the vote and then supplant its ideological opposite?

And on top of this, you're further assuming that the Republicans won't just be warped by this WTFery and that everyone turns on the other main party too.

That's a plan so far outside of the realm of plausibility (because seriously, predicting politics in four years' time?) that yes, it is just a wasted vote.

[dman11235]

My advise?  Know how your state is voting.  If there is no possible way your vote matters, vote for Stein (or write in Bernie, whichever will get the most votes for that candidate), you won't hurt things too much in terms of turning us into the next Germany 1929.  Otherwise, I'd rather see status quo with Clinton.  I'm in Indiana, so my vote might count?  But maybe not.  If it doesn't, I'm writing in Bernie.