Author Topic: Favorite True Dragon (Outside of 3.5 MMI)  (Read 8385 times)

Offline Necrosnoop110

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Favorite True Dragon (Outside of 3.5 MMI)
« on: July 05, 2015, 08:59:44 PM »
What are some interesting true dragons outside of the 3.5 MMI?

Thanks,
Necro

Offline Nifft

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Re: Favorite True Dragon (Outside of 3.5 MMI)
« Reply #1 on: July 06, 2015, 04:52:24 PM »
Dragonwrought Kobold.




What?

Offline Necrosnoop110

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Re: Favorite True Dragon (Outside of 3.5 MMI)
« Reply #2 on: July 06, 2015, 05:10:50 PM »

Offline Nifft

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Re: Favorite True Dragon (Outside of 3.5 MMI)
« Reply #3 on: July 06, 2015, 05:22:20 PM »
Well, more seriously, I do like some of the Planar Wyrms in the Draconomicon.

Not sure if they qualify.

You're asking for "true dragons", but adding emphasis markup to the ambiguous term ("true") doesn't actually communicate what you want in a usable way.

Offline Necrosnoop110

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Re: Favorite True Dragon (Outside of 3.5 MMI)
« Reply #4 on: July 06, 2015, 11:20:50 PM »
Well, more seriously, I do like some of the Planar Wyrms in the Draconomicon.

Not sure if they qualify.

You're asking for "true dragons", but adding emphasis markup to the ambiguous term ("true") doesn't actually communicate what you want in a usable way.
Cool. Will check out the Planar Wyrms.

Oh, and "true" does in fact mean something in the games rules. And here is a True Dragon Index of some more I found.

Peace,
Necro

Offline Nifft

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Re: Favorite True Dragon (Outside of 3.5 MMI)
« Reply #5 on: July 07, 2015, 08:04:32 PM »
Oh, and "true" does in fact mean something in the games rules.
Ah, right. If you use parts of the 2nd paragraph and ignore the 1st paragraph -- because the 1st paragraph limits the definition to the 10 found in the 3.5eMM -- then there is an official-ish rule on being a true dragon.

It's weird that the Epic Dragons in the SRD are excluded, too. Meh.

Offline Necrosnoop110

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Re: Favorite True Dragon (Outside of 3.5 MMI)
« Reply #6 on: July 08, 2015, 10:00:25 AM »
Oh, and "true" does in fact mean something in the games rules.
Ah, right. If you use parts of the 2nd paragraph and ignore the 1st paragraph -- because the 1st paragraph limits the definition to the 10 found in the 3.5eMM -- then there is an official-ish rule on being a true dragon.

It's weird that the Epic Dragons in the SRD are excluded, too. Meh.
The first paragraph, first sentence of the SRD says, "The known varieties of true dragons (as opposed to other creatures that have the dragon type)." This indicates that there is a distinction between "true dragons" and creatures that are not "true dragons" but just have the dragon type. The MMI does imply that these true dragons fall under two broad categories: chromatic and metallic. So chromatic and metallic dragons outside of the MMI could in fact be true dragons even though they are not in the MMI by the rules of the very first paragraph of the true dragon entry. And it is arguable that Epic Dragons are true dragons as they gain gain more abilities and greater power as they age. And even if that's not absolutely a strict reading, how many times have creature entries been expanded, added to, and altered in subsequent rulebooks - that is not an uncommon event in D&D. 

Regardless, lol, I am seeking interesting examples of dragons that fit the spirit of what is commonly know as a dragon outside of the MMI (e.g. Planar Wyrms in the Draconomicon) and I am not seeking examples of creatures that fail to generally fit the "true dragon" profile but just have the dragon type (e.g. dragonwrought kobold).

Peace,
Necro
« Last Edit: July 08, 2015, 10:05:29 AM by Necrosnoop110 »

Offline ketaro

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Re: Favorite True Dragon (Outside of 3.5 MMI)
« Reply #7 on: July 08, 2015, 10:01:52 AM »
The Lung Dragons from Oriental Adventures <3

Offline Keldar

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Re: Favorite True Dragon (Outside of 3.5 MMI)
« Reply #8 on: July 09, 2015, 04:46:51 AM »
Dragonwrought Kobold.
What?
Quote from: True Dragon
Advancement:    Wyrmling 5-6 HD; very young 8-9 HD; young 11-12 HD; juvenile 14-15 HD; young adult 17-18 HD; adult 20-21 HD; mature adult 23-24 HD; old 26-27 HD; very old 29-30 HD; ancient 32-33 HD; wyrm 35-36 HD; great wyrm 38+ HD
Quote from: Kobold
Advancement:    By character class
You'll note the point at which the argument fails.  Advancement has specific usage in D&D, Dragonwrought Kobold doesn't survive RAW, much less RAI, it isn't even RAR.  Its just HUA.


Weredragon.  Because Abbot and Costello are even funnier with dragons.

Offline Necrosnoop110

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Re: Favorite True Dragon (Outside of 3.5 MMI)
« Reply #9 on: July 09, 2015, 12:56:37 PM »
it isn't even RAR.  Its just HUA.
RAR = ?
HUA = ?

Weredragon.  Because Abbot and Costello are even funnier with dragons.
Very cool. Never heard of them before. Any idea what source book they are in?

Offline Keldar

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Re: Favorite True Dragon (Outside of 3.5 MMI)
« Reply #10 on: July 10, 2015, 02:59:52 AM »
Rules as Reasonable.  HUA... lets just leave that a mystery.   :P

Weredragon is from Monsters of Faerun.  As for Abbot and Costello.  There Dragon.

Offline Nifft

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Re: Favorite True Dragon (Outside of 3.5 MMI)
« Reply #11 on: July 10, 2015, 03:29:53 PM »
You'll note the point at which the argument fails.  Advancement has specific usage in D&D (...)
Dragonwrought Kobold Sorcerer 1.

Elite array: starts with Charisma 15.

Advances "by age category" to Venerable.

Gains a new level 1 spell when his Charisma hits 20.

He has "advanced" in power by "advancing" in age categories, just like a True Dragon.

It's shady as fuck, but it's possible to justify.

Offline Keldar

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Re: Favorite True Dragon (Outside of 3.5 MMI)
« Reply #12 on: July 11, 2015, 10:49:22 AM »
Advancement isn't a random term.  Its a stat block entry with specific use.  Dragonwrought Kobold's entry is STILL By Character Class, even if its age did make its charisma one louder.  None of those arguments change its Advancement entry.  Its not shady, its just flat wrong.  It was wrong 9 years ago, and its still wrong today.

Insisting otherwise is why people treat CO as a bunch of munchkins.  Because that is some serious Munchkin garbage.

Offline Nifft

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Re: Favorite True Dragon (Outside of 3.5 MMI)
« Reply #13 on: July 12, 2015, 05:08:58 PM »
Advancement isn't a random term.  Its a stat block entry with specific use.
That's not correct. Advancement can also mean the use of Templates, which are not listed in the stat block entry of any creature.

The stat block entry is only an example, not an exhaustive or exclusive enumeration.

And, as a direct contradiction of your point, there are creatures which have a stat block Advancement in hit dice, and then have another stat block which is an example advanced by character class. In fact the first monster in the SRD is like this: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/aboleth.htm

Therefore, the stat line is never intended to be exclusive.

Insisting otherwise is why people treat CO as a bunch of munchkins.  Because that is some serious Munchkin garbage.
Hey, my assertion is that "True" is poorly defined, and I'm correct. It is poorly defined.

It can be interpreted in ways that are mostly sane and not horrible -- but those aren't the only available interpretations.

- - -

Anyway, with this much insight into the flaws of "True", maybe that means it's my responsibility to write a robust definition. (Obviously this would exclude silly things like Dragonwrought Kobolds.)

Hmm.

True Dragons: A true dragon is a monster of the Dragon type which advances through 12 age categories, from Wyrmling to Great Wyrm. Each age category increases the true dragon's hit dice, and a true dragon's size category will also increase at least once as it advances.

- - -

There. That looks robust. Please try to break that.

Offline ketaro

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Re: Favorite True Dragon (Outside of 3.5 MMI)
« Reply #14 on: July 13, 2015, 12:17:16 AM »
You do realize that this likely has nothing to do with the intent of the thread, right? So you're purposely derailing it.

Not to mention how utterly flat and boring a dragonwrought kobold may be from a world & fluff stand point. :p
But if something so bland and lacking is still your favorite.....

(Also Kobolds are from MMI, a book excluded by the thread title  :P)

Offline zook1shoe

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Re: Favorite True Dragon (Outside of 3.5 MMI)
« Reply #15 on: July 20, 2015, 11:11:16 AM »
back on topic peeps...


my favorite is the Pyroclastic Dragon

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Offline Necrosnoop110

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Re: Favorite True Dragon (Outside of 3.5 MMI)
« Reply #16 on: July 20, 2015, 12:14:01 PM »
back on topic peeps...


my favorite is the Pyroclastic Dragon
"Its scales resemble fractured obsidian and glowing magma" wicked!

Offline zook1shoe

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Re: Favorite True Dragon (Outside of 3.5 MMI)
« Reply #17 on: July 20, 2015, 12:43:55 PM »
Reminds me of the Balrog from Fellowship of the Ring
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Offline Amechra

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Re: Favorite True Dragon (Outside of 3.5 MMI)
« Reply #18 on: July 20, 2015, 01:03:57 PM »
The Pyroclastic is my favorite too*; both because it is wicked sick, and because it makes for one of the best Draconic Heritages if you want to use Dragonfire Strike, Dragonfire Inspiration, or similar feats.

Why? Because their breath weapon is Fire/Sonic damage, of course!

* Too bad the Gravewyrm isn't a True Dragon.
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Offline zook1shoe

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Re: Favorite True Dragon (Outside of 3.5 MMI)
« Reply #19 on: July 20, 2015, 08:21:28 PM »
Not to mention their insta-kill alternate breath
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