Author Topic: General Discussion and Suggestions  (Read 211594 times)

Offline oslecamo

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Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #560 on: January 17, 2017, 04:58:13 PM »
Extended Ships Full of Hope range based on ship captain level.



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Yeah, no, it's in another subforum altogether.

Well then how about putting it in the Moon Vanguard's thread? It's a Pilot class that pulls almost all of it's abilities from the SRW Pilot stuff and all  :huh
I'll consider it.

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Well that's more of power armor for your power armor, which isn't that rare. There's quite a lot of Gundams where the mecha ends up piloting a bigger module.  The Huckebein MK III Boxer also is this, although doesn't get any special rules since it was one of the first ones and I was/am too lazy to add any special rules to represent that in particular when the original game also didn't care much besides "now counts as a bigger/stronger Huckebein, enjoy".

Gundam Seed.jpg

The only show I can recall ever seeing bigass mechas piloting biggerass mechas was Gurren Lagann  :p
But those are all Supers and Supers inside Supers makes sense to me.
It's the Reals that get weird  :lmao



Here's your real robot inside another real robot.

And that one in particular fought a bigger real robot that had another smaller real robot inside.

Gundam was the one doing the whole robot piloting from inside another robot cool in the first place. Probaly because the series has always been partially a comercial for toy robots, and that's the perfect excuse to adding new models that combine directly over your previous models. :P

Offline ketaro

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Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #561 on: January 17, 2017, 08:18:30 PM »
Weird, I don't remember the Alvatore at all...00 was one of my favorites too. Huh.

Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #562 on: January 17, 2017, 08:41:29 PM »
Technically speaking the Red Dragon Thunderzord is wearing the other Zords (link)

Offline oslecamo

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Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #563 on: January 17, 2017, 08:52:41 PM »
Weird, I don't remember the Alvatore at all...00 was one of my favorites too. Huh.

Just the first season's final boss. :p

Much earlier there's the Gundam Dendrobium although he only appeared on the Stardust memory OVA from 1991.

Offline Anomander

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Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #564 on: January 18, 2017, 03:19:08 AM »
Mmh. Maybe the Spirit Up feat should also have a similar scaling maximum number of picks.

Am I correct in assuming that when the arsenal options state that they increase the spirit points of the pilot the extra spirit points apply only while the pilot is controlling the mecha? Those from the Arsenal accessories affect any pilot so it seems they are gone when the pilot is on foot and must be recovered once the pilot controls the mecha again. The Soul of the Machine upgrade however refers to the main pilot, so the effect follows that one pilot no matter who is currently piloting the mecha although it may still require for the main pilot to be controlling he mecha for him to gain the benefits. It is unclear.

Is the Moon Vanguard meant to have access to the new pilot martial disciplines as well?

Also, almost every class restricts the use of a spirit to once per turn per spirit. That limit should probably be generalized by adding it in the spirit's thread.
Something else... I noticed that since there is no range to spirits and since you encourage the idea of having supporters on the sides that assist with spirit usage, there should probably also be a limit on the application of a spirit as well for the receiver, such as each spirit cannot be applied to the same target more than once unless it specifically has a clause on the matter (such as Provoke).

It is otherwise possible to have level 1 minions and similar followers all get the Aid spirit and Spirit Regen and recover a PC's spirits by 10 each, taking turns to recharge in full.
« Last Edit: February 05, 2017, 02:56:38 AM by Anomander »

Offline CKirk

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Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #565 on: January 18, 2017, 11:55:05 AM »
Weird, I don't remember the Alvatore at all...00 was one of my favorites too. Huh.

Just the first season's final boss. :p

Much earlier there's the Gundam Dendrobium although he only appeared on the Stardust memory OVA from 1991.

And don't forget the METEORs from Gundam SEED!

Offline Raineh Daze

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Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #566 on: January 18, 2017, 01:15:34 PM »
Well, having checked this and skipped... most of it.

At least I know I have a bonus feat to rearrange, since spirit regen stopped stacking after I last touched my feats. :T

Offline ketaro

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Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #567 on: February 08, 2017, 02:39:25 AM »
Since Born to Fight is a [Pilot] feat, can Counter's bonus swift or immediate action be used to activate Born to Fight's ability to activate one of your pilot maneuvers?

Offline oslecamo

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Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #568 on: February 08, 2017, 07:10:48 PM »
Mmh. Maybe the Spirit Up feat should also have a similar scaling maximum number of picks.
I'll wait until somebody finds a way to abuse that one.

Am I correct in assuming that when the arsenal options state that they increase the spirit points of the pilot the extra spirit points apply only while the pilot is controlling the mecha? Those from the Arsenal accessories affect any pilot so it seems they are gone when the pilot is on foot and must be recovered once the pilot controls the mecha again. The Soul of the Machine upgrade however refers to the main pilot, so the effect follows that one pilot no matter who is currently piloting the mecha although it may still require for the main pilot to be controlling he mecha for him to gain the benefits. It is unclear.
Yes only while controling the mecha.

Is the Moon Vanguard meant to have access to the new pilot martial disciplines as well?
Yes got to go and update the moon vanguard.

Also, almost every class restricts the use of a spirit to once per turn per spirit. That limit should probably be generalized by adding it in the spirit's thread.
Too much work at this point for no pratical gain.

Something else... I noticed that since there is no range to spirits and since you encourage the idea of having supporters on the sides that assist with spirit usage, there should probably also be a limit on the application of a spirit as well for the receiver, such as each spirit cannot be applied to the same target more than once unless it specifically has a clause on the matter (such as Provoke).
That only results in everybody using scan on their own allies to screw enemy scans. Still eat the save penalty but will block the other side from learning anything.

It is otherwise possible to have level 1 minions and similar followers all get the Aid spirit and Spirit Regen and recover a PC's spirits by 10 each, taking turns to recharge in full.
I may rememember a SRW boss or ten like that.

Kill. Mooks. First.

Mind you, to do it with 1st level mooks they'll need at least 36  SP at first level meaning Spirit up x2. So meh, added limitation to Spirit up and now it's impossible that early.

Since Born to Fight is a [Pilot] feat, can Counter's bonus swift or immediate action be used to activate Born to Fight's ability to activate one of your pilot maneuvers?

No, since Born to Fight isn't the one being activated.[

Offline Anomander

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Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #569 on: February 08, 2017, 11:23:00 PM »
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That only results in everybody using scan on their own allies to screw enemy scans. Still eat the save penalty but will block the other side from learning anything.
Could not apply to Scan since it targets enemies rather than allies.

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I may rememember a SRW boss or ten like that.
Kill. Mooks. First.
Since there is no distance or anything like that to use spirits, you already confirmed that it was all right for hidden supports to use Spirits on their allies while they hide among the crowds or watch the battle from afar. The mook could also be within the mecha as with the pilot, then use the spirits on the pilot. Kind of like the ship captain's second/third in command.

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Mind you, to do it with 1st level mooks they'll need at least 36  SP at first level meaning Spirit up x2. So meh, added limitation to Spirit up and now it's impossible that early.
Real Pilot 1 = 6 spirit points + 20 spirit up + 5 custom color arsenal = 31 spirit points to activate Aid (30 for real pilots)
Have it put its bonus feat on Spirit Regen to get a 3 rounds cooldown per use. Rotate with the other followers.
Have them all watch the battle on a TV screen in their mecha somewhere away so they stay safe.

Offline ketaro

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Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #570 on: February 09, 2017, 01:14:14 AM »
More annoying questions about Born to Fight.

Can you Overcharge your accessories while outside your mecha?

As examples ranging from abusive (overcharging to regain spirit while not near your mecha) to useful (overcharging to reduce or prevent damage to your mecha if it's in trouble and for some reason [like the ship carrying it exploding!] and you're not piloting it)


Offline Anomander

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Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #571 on: February 09, 2017, 01:34:06 AM »
You could probably overcharge your Moon Vanguard accessories but not the mecha's if you're not piloting it.
If the nano armor gets wrecked, you'd still have the accessories on so technically still should be able to overcharge them.

Offline oslecamo

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Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #572 on: February 11, 2017, 06:58:11 AM »
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That only results in everybody using scan on their own allies to screw enemy scans. Still eat the save penalty but will block the other side from learning anything.
Could not apply to Scan since it targets enemies rather than allies.
I don't want to hear that from somebody who made multiple in-game posts claiming "enemies" and "allies" are meaningless tags that just mean "whatever target I wish in this split second".

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I may rememember a SRW boss or ten like that.
Kill. Mooks. First.
Since there is no distance or anything like that to use spirits, you already confirmed that it was all right for hidden supports to use Spirits on their allies while they hide among the crowds or watch the battle from afar. The mook could also be within the mecha as with the pilot, then use the spirits on the pilot. Kind of like the ship captain's second/third in command.
Ok, freeloaders no longer can use spirits (or anything else besides basic speech that cannot trigger other stuff) unless they have a specific ability for that.

As for hiding in the crowd, that's why you open the battle with a colony drop or ten. In the case of goody two shoes that's why you call evacuations.

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Mind you, to do it with 1st level mooks they'll need at least 36  SP at first level meaning Spirit up x2. So meh, added limitation to Spirit up and now it's impossible that early.
Real Pilot 1 = 6 spirit points + 20 spirit up + 5 custom color arsenal = 31 spirit points to activate Aid (30 for real pilots)
Have it put its bonus feat on Spirit Regen to get a 3 rounds cooldown per use. Rotate with the other followers.
Have them all watch the battle on a TV screen in their mecha somewhere away so they stay safe.
Smoke launchers exist for a reason. If your opponent managed to set up full multi-angle real-time video with no lag at all, you may want to re-consider your anti-jamming capacities and your ability to pick your battlegrounds.


More annoying questions about Born to Fight.

Can you Overcharge your accessories while outside your mecha?

As examples ranging from abusive (overcharging to regain spirit while not near your mecha) to useful (overcharging to reduce or prevent damage to your mecha if it's in trouble and for some reason [like the ship carrying it exploding!] and you're not piloting it)
No, need to be inside mecha.

Offline ketaro

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Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #573 on: February 11, 2017, 08:17:13 AM »
To clarify, does that also include having the nanoarmor equipped and not just inactively stored and/or broken like in Anomander's example?

Offline oslecamo

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Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #574 on: February 11, 2017, 09:08:31 AM »
Inactively stored wouldn't work, but broken with acessories still working would.

Offline Anomander

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Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #575 on: February 11, 2017, 05:41:48 PM »
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I don't want to hear that from somebody who made multiple in-game posts claiming "enemies" and "allies" are meaningless tags that just mean "whatever target I wish in this split second".
It was to use an ability that works on allies to save someone that seemed forced to suicide, I recall. And you refused it then.
But later you got real set on abilities that work on enemies to also work on allies for weird reasons, so I'm not sure anymore what your stance on targeting is.
Either way, the idea was that Scan could specifically mention that it can be applied more than once on the same target, since it targets opponents, like Provoke.
Just trying to help. If you're fine with the same spirit applying multiple times among allies, then all right.
You'll notice I'm actually trying to have you shut down my options before I use them.

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Ok, freeloaders no longer can use spirits (or anything else besides basic speech that cannot trigger other stuff) unless they have a specific ability for that.
Excellent. Thank you. I think it is safe to assume they can still take an action to exit the mecha, though. It could also make sense that they wouldn't be able to unless the pilot opens the door/kicks them out.

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As for hiding in the crowd, that's why you open the battle with a colony drop or ten. In the case of goody two shoes that's why you call evacuations.
Myeah. Commoners on foot have a speed of 30-ft and they may well be in a mecha battleground measured on mu-scale. By the time they evacuate anywhere battle's probably over anyway. If they can evacuate. Anyway, if you're fine with what this makes possible, then all right.

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Smoke launchers exist for a reason. If your opponent managed to set up full multi-angle real-time video with no lag at all, you may want to re-consider your anti-jamming capacities and your ability to pick your battlegrounds.
Good advice. Though wait, is the setting offering anti-jamming options?
Speaking of jammers, Heaven-Sailing Dragon's jammer mentions blocking all communications. That's a very general term since it technically also blocks sound/speech.
Also, considering a jammer can have immense range while itself being anywhere within it, should it be possible for those within the jammer to detect the direction of the jammer? Typical divinations to find stuff like scrying should count as a communication and are jammed as well.
It would make sense for a more local jamming since the hole in the radar is there and you can see the surface blocked, but when it applies to entire planets and wider, it gets trickier to make a mission on "We must destroy the Jamming engine", which are usually fixed locations such as those that would have been built through a Support Staff base and they cannot run away out of reach and reapply the jammer. Or stealth off and remain underground somewhere where nobody will ever find it.
I'm not sure the campaign setting is offering a counter to jamming beyond "we jammed it for you too." Perhaps making the uber jams an additional support staff base option, making the ship's more local such as the immediate battlefield and making it possible for those with wide communication reach to detect the hole in their radar, which would allow one to calculate the position of the jammer based on the intersecting spheres of effect.
Speaking of the support staff, I'm very interested in the remaining specializations. Particularly the Science.
Also:
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You can use the Jammer and Communication Hub simultaneously, but half of all your energy recovery is halved.
That's probably meant to apply the halving once rather than making it a quarter.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2017, 11:23:53 PM by Anomander »

Offline CKirk

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Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #576 on: February 13, 2017, 03:38:22 PM »
Anomander, is there a reason that Soul of the Mechanic doesn't grant a branch of soul tech with the feat alone, and you have to spend a spirit to get any benefit out of the feat at all? I feel that it grants supers a viable build that isn't just maximum growth, and I don't want my super pilot player to feel restricted from taking it because he has to give up a spirit as well.

Offline Anomander

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Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #577 on: February 14, 2017, 12:17:49 AM »
The feat grants additional options with a class feature. There is no feat that grants extra spirits, so getting a free tech branch seems too good an extra.
I could also turn it into an alternate class feature that allows a pilot to get a bonus Engineer feat upon selecting Soul of the Mechanic if choose to forfeit the ability to use spirit points for anything else than Custom Soul Tech. And then a feat must be spend to access spirits normally if the pilot changes his mind.

Offline oslecamo

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Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #578 on: February 14, 2017, 09:09:54 AM »
I feel that it grants supers a viable build that isn't just maximum growth

Got a burst of inspiration and on the line of Great One added Tek Knight for smaller super robots, Zero Pattern for medium super robots, plus Super Servos and Absolute Barrier upgrade lines.

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I don't want to hear that from somebody who made multiple in-game posts claiming "enemies" and "allies" are meaningless tags that just mean "whatever target I wish in this split second".
It was to use an ability that works on allies to save someone that seemed forced to suicide, I recall. And you refused it then.
But later you got real set on abilities that work on enemies to also work on allies for weird reasons, so I'm not sure anymore what your stance on targeting is.
The same as always, an alliance is a two-way street, while it only takes one to want to hurt somebody else. Can't help somebody that does not want to be helped and everything.

Either way, the idea was that Scan could specifically mention that it can be applied more than once on the same target, since it targets opponents, like Provoke.
Just trying to help. If you're fine with the same spirit applying multiple times among allies, then all right.
You'll notice I'm actually trying to have you shut down my options before I use them.
Fair enough, but spamming benefical spirits in an ally when the going gets tough is a staple of both the computer games and related media. Army mooks cheering their commander on even if their weapons are outclassed is something that should be viable.

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Ok, freeloaders no longer can use spirits (or anything else besides basic speech that cannot trigger other stuff) unless they have a specific ability for that.
Excellent. Thank you. I think it is safe to assume they can still take an action to exit the mecha, though. It could also make sense that they wouldn't be able to unless the pilot opens the door/kicks them out.
Good point, added clause to exit and opposed rolls if the pilot does not want to let the other out.

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As for hiding in the crowd, that's why you open the battle with a colony drop or ten. In the case of goody two shoes that's why you call evacuations.
Myeah. Commoners on foot have a speed of 30-ft and they may well be in a mecha battleground measured on mu-scale. By the time they evacuate anywhere battle's probably over anyway. If they can evacuate. Anyway, if you're fine with what this makes possible, then all right.
That's one of the reasons I made the Support Staff able to spam transports and bunkers and whatnot.

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Smoke launchers exist for a reason. If your opponent managed to set up full multi-angle real-time video with no lag at all, you may want to re-consider your anti-jamming capacities and your ability to pick your battlegrounds.
Good advice. Though wait, is the setting offering anti-jamming options?
Speaking of jammers, Heaven-Sailing Dragon's jammer mentions blocking all communications. That's a very general term since it technically also blocks sound/speech.
Yes it's supposed to be broad. Speaking of which nerfed it a bit by reducing communication range to 30 mu max instead of fully blocking.

Also, considering a jammer can have immense range while itself being anywhere within it, should it be possible for those within the jammer to detect the direction of the jammer? Typical divinations to find stuff like scrying should count as a communication and are jammed as well.
It would make sense for a more local jamming since the hole in the radar is there and you can see the surface blocked, but when it applies to entire planets and wider, it gets trickier to make a mission on "We must destroy the Jamming engine", which are usually fixed locations such as those that would have been built through a Support Staff base and they cannot run away out of reach and reapply the jammer. Or stealth off and remain underground somewhere where nobody will ever find it.
Jammers being super-effective is kinda needed for any mecha story, in particular if you want battles to happen close enough that hitting stuff with pointy plasma sticks is still a viable tactic.

Also many forces in mecha settings are mobile while remaining heavily jammed. From Doctor Hell's robot castle to the White Base and their sucessors. Often finding, intercepting and destroying such targets is the main objective of the campaign. You need to get creative from capturing and interrogating prisioners to setting up baits to disguises or provoking them to come out somehow to outwit them to predict their next target to plain old sending scouts to search the area.

I'm not sure the campaign setting is offering a counter to jamming beyond "we jammed it for you too." Perhaps making the uber jams an additional support staff base option, making the ship's more local such as the immediate battlefield and making it possible for those with wide communication reach to detect the hole in their radar, which would allow one to calculate the position of the jammer based on the intersecting spheres of effect.
If that's a viable tactic, then there's no need for mechas, you just inform the artillery/missile division and blow up your enemies from beyond the horizon.


Speaking of the support staff, I'm very interested in the remaining specializations. Particularly the Science.
Seems like I've worked some motivation for this today, let's see if I can take care of that.

Also:
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You can use the Jammer and Communication Hub simultaneously, but half of all your energy recovery is halved.
That's probably meant to apply the halving once rather than making it a quarter.
Fixed, thanks.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2017, 09:42:23 AM by oslecamo »

Offline Anomander

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Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #579 on: February 14, 2017, 11:17:18 AM »
All good!

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If that's a viable tactic, then there's no need for mechas, you just inform the artillery/missile division and blow up your enemies from beyond the horizon.
Not necessarily. Jammers are often in a base, which could well have anti-artillery and force shields. Coincidentally, the big mission is also taking down the mighty forceshield, which could protect the jammer. Not to say that with the current pilot disciplines a mecha/ship could well be an anti-artillery force all by itself.
Working out the area of effect of the jam on hidden jammers that aren't moving all that much to calculate its source's position seems like very valid tactic. Especially to force it to move if it is mobile. And stuff that moves is easier to notice. Prevents the case of the galaxy-wide underground hidden jammer that everyone forgot about except the big bad.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2017, 11:19:33 AM by Anomander »