Author Topic: Super Youkai Warhead: A new wave of technological progress!  (Read 12165 times)

Offline Anomander

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Re: Super Youkai Warhead: A new wave of technological progress!
« Reply #20 on: October 24, 2014, 12:56:34 AM »
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Cucumbernergy is a really ugly word to look at -_-'
Do you prefer Cucumbergy? It's osle's suggestion that led me to Cucumbernergy.
I agree with you in that I don't actually like to look at the word but saying it out loud makes me smile.

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Kappowa? :rolleyes
...Genius! I prefer it. Still open to suggestions, as usual.

Offline oslecamo

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Re: Super Youkai Warhead: A new wave of technological progress!
« Reply #21 on: October 24, 2014, 11:06:07 AM »
Is there anything left to work on for this discipline?

Your latest suggestion was to find a new name for energy thing and I'd like to make sure this one is finished before I get through to finish Desire Drive.
Since you seem to be asking this to my person, yes I consider this finished, and have done so for months. It will automatically finish any campaign a player uses it in (even faster if it is a mecha campaign, because it actively punishes the opposition for using mechas at all). It will automatically finish the party if the DM uses it from the other side of the screen. Thus I have no more suggestions for it. It fulfills its purpose of completely finishing a game wonderfully. Unless that wasn't your intention. But then you would have to tell me what exactly your intention here was, because stuff like flawless invulnerability and wrecking whole cities/countries/worlds at will serves absolutely no other purpose.

Offline Anomander

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Re: Super Youkai Warhead: A new wave of technological progress!
« Reply #22 on: October 24, 2014, 01:16:32 PM »
So stuff needs to be fixed, alright. If there is a glitch, please point it out?
When I review your stuff for balance, I actually do. That'd be nice.  :rolleyes

Offline Anomander

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Re: Super Youkai Warhead: A new wave of technological progress!
« Reply #23 on: November 06, 2014, 07:58:18 AM »
Went around and revamped a few things I've been thinking to for a while now. Did a sweep of some other stuff.
Is it alright now?

Offline siflux

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Re: Super Youkai Warhead: A new wave of technological progress!
« Reply #24 on: September 11, 2017, 10:34:59 PM »
I’ve been using this school in a Super Robot Wars mecha campaign and I’ve been having a lot of fun with it. However, my group has come up with a number of changes we’d like to make to the school. I hope you don’t consider this an abandoned work, as the last change was in 2014. Please consider each of these changes individually, rather than as a monolithic rework.

I’ll open with a quick summary of some major trends we noticed.

There’s a number of maneuvers that operate as a different kind -- mostly offensive actions that act like Strikes being classified as Boosts instead. This leads to a dearth of non-situational Strikes and so many Boosts that you have to carefully choose what will take your valuable Swift action each turn.

Some Maneuvers combine effects that would individually be worthwhile, and together are simply far too powerful for the action economy or gamebalance. By and large, we propose splitting these into two maneuvers.

Finally, there’s a few effects that allow the user to directly attack an enemy pilot through their mech. Due to the absurd damage scaling of Heavy weapons, these are inherent gamebreakers, causing instant enemy death if used correctly. They also break the paradigm of pilots being able to survive the destruction of their mechs via an escape pod, greatly increasing the lethality of the setting. These may be fixable by adding a divisor to the damage dealt, but as I’m opposed to the aforementioned paradigm change in the first place, I won’t be mentioning this alternative inline.

From here on in, I’ll try to address the entire School in order. Anything skipped over is fine as-is, of course.


Aquatic Engineer [Engineer, Pilot]

Prerequisites: Must know one maneuver from the Super Youkai Warhead discipline.
Benefits: You can now spend mecha energy available to you as if it was also Kappowa.
You can also inflict nondamage effects (both ill or beneficial) to a mecha even if you're on foot and smaller than them.
Every non-mecha object you craft or otherwise create is waterproof and can be used underwater without penalty.
Finally, all your firearms may now shoot water bullets. They deal bludgeoning/piercing damage and a filled tank of water provides 60 shots.
You count as having the 'Born to Fight' feat for the purpose of fulfilling prerequisites.

Spending EN as Kappowa turns out to be simply too powerful in practice, especially at a one-to-one ratio. While the conversion factor could be increased (five-to-one at a minimum, probably ten-to-one or worse), our preferred option would be to simply eliminate this feat, keeping Born to Fight as the root feat for all mecha-related advanced school feats. The remaining effects are too weak to be worth a feat, but the humanscale waterproofing and water bullets are fun to have around nonetheless, so they would be folded into Solid Metal Geared.

Solid Metal Geared [Engineer, Pilot]

All the other advanced mecha school feats are named after relevant theme songs, so perhaps this feat should be renamed Candid Friend. Or perhaps not; Solid Metal Geared amuses me endlessly as a name even if it doesn’t fit the theme.

Solid Metal Geared [Engineer, Pilot]
...
Catalog of Phantasm Tools - Once per minute as a swift or move action, you can activate one of the following special devices:
...
Shiriko Device - While this option is active, your attacks can hit a pilot directly. The damage you deal isn't absorbed by their mecha. If you deal a killing blow you automatically recover all your spent Kappowa. This device lasts 3 rounds after activation.

When combined with Heavy weapons, Shiriko Device is simply too powerful. Even when not, it’s too lethal. As such, the ability to directly target pilots should be removed from this Device. Its other effect of restoring your Kappowa on a kill is still a viable option, as enemy Mooks and Heavy weapons means you can still guarantee it’ll trigger on most rounds.

Solid Metal Geared [Engineer, Pilot]
...
Photography Device - By spending a fullround action preparing and calibrating your device for continuous shooting on motion-tracking, you can embarrass/anger people with annoying camera flashes, insistent photoshootings and embarrassing photos to find openings when you surprise them with a special attack. You get an Insight bonus equal to the level of your highest Super Youkai Warhead maneuver known on two kinds of special attacks of your choice among the following: Bullrush, disarm, feint, grapple, overrun, trip and sunder. Only two insight bonus at a time. You can end this as a free action.

Combat Maneuvers are more powerful than the skill bonuses that most of the equivalent feats grant in return for using a full-round action. Ironically, this is actually a less useful ability, as skills can be used out of combat when you can afford to spend a turn, but spending an entire turn in combat on this buff is generally not worthwhile. My best guess at a simple equivalent version for a replacement on Photography Device would be STR-, DEX-, and INT-Linked skills (definitely STR for Swim and INT for Kn(Arc/Eng)), but I’d honestly prefer if there was a more creative option like Gate to Nowhere’s hiding buffs or Rushing Dandy’s boost to carrying capacity. I don’t have a viable creative replacement, unfortunately, so I understand if you skip this.

Farewell Rubber Ring
Super Youkai Warhead (Boost)
Level: Moon Vanguard 2, Youkai Engineer 2
Initiation Action: Swift action
Range: 10-ft./pilot level
Target: See text.
Duration: See text.
Save: None

You shoot a tethered anchor to pull/swing yourself into a position within range (even in mid air) that you have line of effect to.
The anchor may be used differently by expending Kappowa into it.
Only one use and target per initiation of this maneuver.

Upgrade: For 2 Kappowa, you may instantly pick up any one item within half that range that is lighter than your light load.
For 5 Kappowa, you can make a trip attack against someone within range.
For 8 Kappowa, you can make a disarm attack against someone within range.
For 11 Kappowa, you can entangle a target with a ranged touch attack. Success prevents it from moving away from you for 1 round. You can pull it to you with a Standard action if you win an opposed Strength check, moving it towards you by 5 ft. per point you beat the check provided its weight is within your drag/push load.

I’ve gotten an absurd amount of use out of this Maneuver, entirely due to its primary effect of basically being a Swift-action Teleport. I’m not sure if moving as a Swift action can be balanced. The Upgrade effects are all maneuvers that take a Standard action and are melee by default, and lowering them down to a Swift while making them ranged with no feat tax is a big deal. Much as it pains me to recommend it, this Boost should probably take a Move action instead of a Swift. At the very least, it should explicitly not be usable with Heavy weapons, especially as this maneuver’s current move range is significantly longer than that of a typical mech.

River Sign "Dividing Edge"
Super Youkai Warhead (Boost)
Level: Moon Vanguard 3, Youkai Engineer 3
Initiation Action: Swift action
Range: Personal
Target You
Duration: 1 round
Save: None

Whenever you hit a target, it suffers a loss of energy equal to your ranks in Swim. A target that runs out of energy, or has no energy, suffers half of the difference as damage instead. You recover the inflicted energy loss and/or extra hit point damage caused by this maneuver.

Upgrade: For every 2 Kappowa spent, increase the energy loss per hit by 1.

To start, this is one of the mislabeled maneuvers. It’s basically an attack with an extra effect, so it should be a Strike. As well, this maneuver is incredibly undertuned. It costs 15EN to use it, yet only drains Swim Ranks EN, so it’s an EN-draining maneuver that isn’t even EN-neutral until level 12. I’d recommend making it drain an amount based on a Swim *check*, probably with a multiplier (double Swim check result?) to offset the initial cost of the maneuver.

Water Bomb Giant Swing
Super Youkai Warhead (Boost)
Level: Moon Vanguard 4, Youkai Engineer 4
Initiation Action: Swift action
Range: As weapon.
Target: See text.
Area: See text.
Duration: 1 round
Save: See text.

Your next ranged attack does not require ammo and may ricochet once against an obstacle that blocks its line of effect to reach your intended target, changing the attack's direction.
The new direction is as chosen by you and you count the attack's range before and after the ricochet. If that obstacle is a creature, damage is dealt to that creature on a hit as normal but the attack does not ricochet. After hitting or missing the second target (or the first one, if it is a creature), the attack bursts and deals half damage to everything within 5 feet.
Half damage on a successful Reflex save (DC 10+ ½ your pilot level + the better of your Str and Int modifiers). If the target was hit, it automatically fails this saving throw.

Upgrade: For every 2 Kappowa spent, you may increase the burst's radius by 5 feet.

This is another Boost that should be a Strike, taking a standard and including an attack as part of it rather than being a Swift that alters your next attack. It’s also one of the maneuvers that does two maneuvers worth of effect at the same time, where each would be viable alone. As such, I’d recommend splitting out the ‘doesn’t require ammo’ into a new maneuver. Maybe assign it to a new Level 4 Stance? Unfortunately, I don’t Nitori enough to recommend a name for it (I mostly ⑨), although the Metal Gear theming does bring some ideas to mind for theming and naming.

Kappa "Dried Shirikodama"
Super Youkai Warhead (Boost)
Level: Moon Vanguard 5, Youkai Engineer 5
Initiation Action: Swift action
Target: You
Duration: See text.
Save: None

Until your next turn, the next attack you make ignores DR, energy resistance and all other defenses that would reduce or change its damage. If the attack is used against a mecha you may choose to damage the pilot directly.

Alternatively, you may use this maneuver if you are adjacent to a creature or mecha that has been killed/destroyed within the last round. You extract its energy core (if a mecha) or its shirikodama (if a sentient creature). The energy core is automatically consumed to restore energy equal to the energy the mecha had left just before destruction. A shirikodama can be consumed to restore Kappowa equal to the CR of the creature it was harvested from (minimum 1). You consume all your harvested shirikodama (and no less) with a move action. This cannot give you more Kappowa than your maximum.

The ability to directly target a pilot remains too powerful and too lethal, and should be removed. My understanding of this Maneuver is that it bypasses DR, Barriers, Spirits like Guard, and Feats like Defend. This is more powerful than Ace Pilot’s Master Aim Stance, a Level 6 Stance that only bypasses DR. As such, this should probably be increased to Level 7. It’s also an attacking effect, and as such should be a Strike rather than a Boost.

The other effect, extracting a shirikodama or energy core for consumption, is fine. This is another case where a single Maneuver tries to do two maneuvers worth of effects. I’d split the shirikodama/energy core consumption effect into a different maneuver, keep the current name tied to said effect, keep it a Boost, and lower it to a Level 2 or 3 Maneuver.

Youkai Battleship "Sanpei Fighter"
Super Youkai Warhead (Stance)
Level: Moon Vanguard 5, Youkai Engineer 5
Initiation Action: Swift action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: Stance
Save: None

Your mecha's effective size category can be increased by one and you may attack twice once per round whenever you make an attack.
This second attack has a penalty of -5 to its attack roll but deals the same damage.
You gain a number of Kappowa equal to half your pilot level at the end of each round, up to your maximum.

Upgrade: If you are not within a mecha, you may forgo your Kappowa recovery to get within a deployed subpar Toolpak that is made as part of this stance. It has 10 hit points and energy + 10 of each for every Kappowa spent. It has 1 super robot upgrade of your choice for every 4 Kappowa spent and receives maximum damage whenever it receives any. If the Toolpak breaks, you automatically leave this stance and may not enter it again until you take at least one minute readying your maneuvers. Kappowa invested into this maneuver cannot be recovered while it is active.

I love this stance *so much*. It’s not inherently broken, but it easily combines in ways that makes it far too powerful. It combines with Haste to allow a user two extra attacks per turn, and it can be used with Heavy weapons to effectively double damage output. I’d just recommend making it explicitly not trigger on Heavy weapons and not stacking with Haste’s extra attack. The fact that it can be used when not doing a Full Attack and even off-turn when using Defensive weaponry counterbalance the extra attack’s -5 to hit to make it otherwise roughly on-par to Haste as a stance.

Drown "Trauma in the Glimmering Depths
Super Youkai Warhead (Boost)
Level: Moon Vanguard 6, Youkai Engineer 6
Initiation Action: Swift action
Range: As weapon.
Target: As weapon.
Duration: 1 round
Save: See text.

Your weapons inflict greater trauma upon every organ and systems of your enemies and ruin their vitals.
If your attacks inflict Massive Damage (50+), the required Fortitude save DC increases by one for every additional 10 damage dealt (60, 70, 80...). If the opponent survives, the trauma of the attack prevents it from using Spirits for 1d4 rounds.
The attack can affect targets immune to death from massive damage if you can deal critical hits to them.
If the target is immune to critical hits and you do not otherwise have the ability to bypass that immunity, your attacks instead ignore their critical hit immunity (without risk of dying from massive damage) for 1 round.

This is solely an offensive action, so it should be a Strike rather than a Boost.

Waterfall Sign "Kegon Gun"
Super Youkai Warhead (Boost)
Level: Moon Vanguard 7, Youkai Engineer 7
Initiation Action: Swift action
Range: As weapon.
Target: See text.
Area: See text.
Duration: 1 round
Save: See text.

All your ranged attack for 1 round do not require ammo and may ricochet once against an obstacle that blocks their line of effect to reach your intended target, changing the attack's direction.
The new direction is as chosen by you and the distance before and after the ricochet counts against the attack's range. If that obstacle is a creature, damage is dealt to that creature on a hit as normal but the attack does not ricochet. After hitting or missing the second target (or the first one, if it is a creature), the attack bursts and deals half damage to everything within 5 feet (except the target itself, if hit).
Half burst damage on a successful Reflex save (DC 10+ ½ your pilot level + the better of your Str and Int modifiers).

Upgrade: For every 2 Kappowa spent, you may increase the burst's radius by 5 feet and increase the damage to the target and the burst damage by 1.

As with Water Bomb Giant Swing, this should be a Strike rather than a Boost, and its free ammo effect should be split out into a different maneuver, possibly a Stance.

Super Scope 3D
Super Youkai Warhead (Stance)
Level: Moon Vanguard 9, Youkai Engineer 9
Initiation Action: Swift action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: Stance
Save: None

You can activate an overly complex device that opens a wormhole and sends you out of reality. While you are in this stance, you cannot be perceived by others, do not occupy any space and they cannot interact with you in any way. However, you also lose line of effect to everything since you are nowhere. You may act normally in the no-space but cannot interact with reality in any way either beyond the Upgrade options of this stance.

You have a screen display that shows you the battlefield map as well as the position of everything on it which you could perceive when you left.

You may return at the beginning of every turn or must spend 5 Kappowa into this stance to remain nowhere. You automatically leave this stance if you run out of Kappowa or if the sum of the Kappowa spent into this stance since you initiated it reaches your maximum investment per maneuver (your pilot level).
Once you leave this stance, you cannot spend Kappowa on anything for 3d4 rounds.

Upgrade: With a standard action, you can make a ranged attack from anywhere on the map to any target within it or make a fullattack to similarly send your attacks into the battlefield from the great unknown.
Each attack requires an investment of 2 Kappowa.

Unfortunately, this one’s a doozy. The ability to attack while invincible is simply too powerful an effect to ever be balanced, despite the limitation that you can’t spend more on this Stance than your max investment. I’d split this into two maneuvers, as follows.

First, the invincibility effect. This needs to explicitly disallow offensive actions (attack rolls, things that force saves; basically anything that would break Invisibility or Sanctuary). With the ability to act offensively removed from this stance, it’s still incredible for full-support characters and completely safe scouting, but not Level 9 Stance incredible -- probably only in the Level 4-6 neighborhood. The existing limitations (max investment, can’t spend Kappowa for 3d4 turns after leaving this Stance) are fine for that.

Secondly, attacking to anywhere from anywhere. This is basically a level 4-6 Strike, and would open up a lot of interesting tactical options from safety on its own.

I’m not sure which of these two effects should retain the Super Scope 3D name (if either), as I can’t find a recording of the move in action (research says it’s Nitori’s Last Word in TH13.5 Hopeless Masquerade). Neither effect really fits the power level of that name, unfortunately.


That’s everything! I’ve been enjoying this school and its craziness and creative effects a lot, and I’ve already tested many of these changes in play with my group to good effect. I hope you can adopt some or all of these suggestions, and thank you for reading my wall of text all the way to the end.
« Last Edit: September 11, 2017, 10:42:40 PM by siflux »

Offline Anomander

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Re: Super Youkai Warhead: A new wave of technological progress!
« Reply #25 on: September 14, 2017, 11:46:01 PM »
No problem with revisiting the thread if only to honor the effort you've put submitting your impressions. I'll answer your points in kind.
Thank you for your input.

Aquatic Engineer
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Spending EN as Kappowa turns out to be simply too powerful in practice, especially at a one-to-one ratio. While the conversion factor could be increased (five-to-one at a minimum, probably ten-to-one or worse), our preferred option would be to simply eliminate this feat, keeping Born to Fight as the root feat for all mecha-related advanced school feats. The remaining effects are too weak to be worth a feat, but the humanscale waterproofing and water bullets are fun to have around nonetheless, so they would be folded into Solid Metal Geared.
Aye. The scaling is out of wack. I recall making this before the Energy overhaul that gave so much of it to start with. The suggestion is good.

Solid Metal Geared
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All the other advanced mecha school feats are named after relevant theme songs, so perhaps this feat should be renamed Candid Friend. Or perhaps not; Solid Metal Geared amuses me endlessly as a name even if it doesn’t fit the theme.
Yeah, that'd be one trend I've no qualms with breaking.

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When combined with Heavy weapons, Shiriko Device is simply too powerful. Even when not, it’s too lethal. As such, the ability to directly target pilots should be removed from this Device. Its other effect of restoring your Kappowa on a kill is still a viable option, as enemy Mooks and Heavy weapons means you can still guarantee it’ll trigger on most rounds.
Agreed.

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Combat Maneuvers are more powerful than the skill bonuses that most of the equivalent feats grant in return for using a full-round action. Ironically, this is actually a less useful ability, as skills can be used out of combat when you can afford to spend a turn, but spending an entire turn in combat on this buff is generally not worthwhile. My best guess at a simple equivalent version for a replacement on Photography Device would be STR-, DEX-, and INT-Linked skills (definitely STR for Swim and INT for Kn(Arc/Eng)), but I’d honestly prefer if there was a more creative option like Gate to Nowhere’s hiding buffs or Rushing Dandy’s boost to carrying capacity. I don’t have a viable creative replacement, unfortunately, so I understand if you skip this.
I'll try to think of other options. Going for such skill boosts would be weird without chaging the name of the device.

Farewell Rubber Ring
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I’ve gotten an absurd amount of use out of this Maneuver, entirely due to its primary effect of basically being a Swift-action Teleport. I’m not sure if moving as a Swift action can be balanced. The Upgrade effects are all maneuvers that take a Standard action and are melee by default, and lowering them down to a Swift while making them ranged with no feat tax is a big deal. Much as it pains me to recommend it, this Boost should probably take a Move action instead of a Swift. At the very least, it should explicitly not be usable with Heavy weapons, especially as this maneuver’s current move range is significantly longer than that of a typical mech.
Depends. Among the Tobhou/SRW martial disciplines I don't think Swift movement is all that new. For example, Martial Machine has Quick March at level 1 that grants 10 mu plus 5 mu per PL movement as a swift action along with twin-linked melee weapon attacks and that movement doesn't have to be in a straight line that respects AoE. It is useful though in that it doesn't require further EN for the movement.
I'm not sure I understand the Heavy weapon bit, since this maneuver isn't actually doing damage. Nor specially using an actual weapon to do what it does. Many of the later Kapowa options are more or less made redundant if you have access to advanced Wire special weapons, which is likely to be the case but could be used in addition to them, of course.

River Sign "Dividing Edge"
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To start, this is one of the mislabeled maneuvers. It’s basically an attack with an extra effect, so it should be a Strike. As well, this maneuver is incredibly undertuned. It costs 15EN to use it, yet only drains Swim Ranks EN, so it’s an EN-draining maneuver that isn’t even EN-neutral until level 12. I’d recommend making it drain an amount based on a Swim *check*, probably with a multiplier (double Swim check result?) to offset the initial cost of the maneuver.
I don't think it is mislabeled. Sounds like a very typical Boost in that it improves attacks you make the rest of the round. It doesn't actually include the attack as part of the boost. But even then, I've seen Boosts out there that actually includes an attack as part of the boost itself (thought that is not to say that those are mislabeled or not).
I agree with the undertune a bit since it was indeed made before the EN rework. Before EN was scaling with levels. But consider that the loss is per hit and the number of attacks per round progresses well in the SRW homebrew material.
Also, since EN stopped scalling as it used to, it mostly tends to stay in the 100 EN area even in the higher levels unless you specifically improve it. Reals work around that with hardpoint EN refills and improvements, mostly.
So as it is, the maneuver isn't so good early but gets significantly better later on. The damage against targets out of energy is pretty shitty though, which made sense before as level 3 HP and EN weren't all that high so eating through the EN of a mecha and doing damage was much more likely.

I could perhaps significantly increase the EN per hit on Kapowa use and greatly increase the damage on targets that run out of energy so as to punish them for getting too low on EN that round.
Keeping the reduced damage for targets that do not have an EN ressource, such as most creatures.

Water Bomb Giant Swing
Quote
This is another Boost that should be a Strike, taking a standard and including an attack as part of it rather than being a Swift that alters your next attack. It’s also one of the maneuvers that does two maneuvers worth of effect at the same time, where each would be viable alone. As such, I’d recommend splitting out the ‘doesn’t require ammo’ into a new maneuver. Maybe assign it to a new Level 4 Stance? Unfortunately, I don’t Nitori enough to recommend a name for it (I mostly ⑨), although the Metal Gear theming does bring some ideas to mind for theming and naming.
I'd rather scrap the no ammo consumption effect entirely.
I could indeed turn this into a strike but mostly because otherwise there is no level 4 strike option.

Kappa "Dried Shirikodama"
Quote
The ability to directly target a pilot remains too powerful and too lethal, and should be removed. My understanding of this Maneuver is that it bypasses DR, Barriers, Spirits like Guard, and Feats like Defend. This is more powerful than Ace Pilot’s Master Aim Stance, a Level 6 Stance that only bypasses DR. As such, this should probably be increased to Level 7. It’s also an attacking effect, and as such should be a Strike rather than a Boost.

The other effect, extracting a shirikodama or energy core for consumption, is fine. This is another case where a single Maneuver tries to do two maneuvers worth of effects. I’d split the shirikodama/energy core consumption effect into a different maneuver, keep the current name tied to said effect, keep it a Boost, and lower it to a Level 2 or 3 Maneuver.
Sure! Making it lower level would also increase the possibility that consuming an energy core gets useful via spending less energy on the maneuver itself. Could replace it with either of the two Nessie occult spellcard or that Fairy Sprite Energy skill.
Aye. It is missing the three Nessie tricks. I've seen one that summons at monster that shoots bullets, another that shoots a super eyebeam and one where there's a bunch of 'hem launching some torpedoes or aerial strikes from the background.

Youkai Battleship "Sanpei Fighter"
Quote
I love this stance *so much*. It’s not inherently broken, but it easily combines in ways that makes it far too powerful. It combines with Haste to allow a user two extra attacks per turn, and it can be used with Heavy weapons to effectively double damage output. I’d just recommend making it explicitly not trigger on Heavy weapons and not stacking with Haste’s extra attack. The fact that it can be used when not doing a Full Attack and even off-turn when using Defensive weaponry counterbalance the extra attack’s -5 to hit to make it otherwise roughly on-par to Haste as a stance.
I'm all for noting that it doesn't stack with other effects that increase the number of attacks and stopping it being used with heavy weapons.

Drown "Trauma in the Glimmering Depths
Quote
This is solely an offensive action, so it should be a Strike rather than a Boost.
It would be a strike if it included the attack. Though I've already covered that for River Sign "Dividing Edge.

Waterfall Sign "Kegon Gun"
Quote
As with Water Bomb Giant Swing, this should be a Strike rather than a Boost, and its free ammo effect should be split out into a different maneuver, possibly a Stance.
I'll similarly remove the free ammo but I think this one is fine as a Boost.

Super Scope 3D
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Unfortunately, this one’s a doozy. The ability to attack while invincible is simply too powerful an effect to ever be balanced, despite the limitation that you can’t spend more on this Stance than your max investment. I’d split this into two maneuvers, as follows.

First, the invincibility effect. This needs to explicitly disallow offensive actions (attack rolls, things that force saves; basically anything that would break Invisibility or Sanctuary). With the ability to act offensively removed from this stance, it’s still incredible for full-support characters and completely safe scouting, but not Level 9 Stance incredible -- probably only in the Level 4-6 neighborhood. The existing limitations (max investment, can’t spend Kappowa for 3d4 turns after leaving this Stance) are fine for that.

Secondly, attacking to anywhere from anywhere. This is basically a level 4-6 Strike, and would open up a lot of interesting tactical options from safety on its own.

I’m not sure which of these two effects should retain the Super Scope 3D name (if either), as I can’t find a recording of the move in action (research says it’s Nitori’s Last Word in TH13.5 Hopeless Masquerade). Neither effect really fits the power level of that name, unfortunately.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f2X-Vy5bZmk
1:58
It is basically the Solid Snake smash-ball ult.
The invincibility is double-edged since while you're away you cannot help nor be supported by the party and (although it may not be as clear as I want it to be) you always return to the spot where you left. Your offensive actions are also limited to normal attacks and when you're back all your kappowa options are out for a while (including using the stance again).
Personally I find that it isn't all that good since the number of attacks possible is capped and only normal attacks are possible. Especially considering that to really benefit from the invincibility you need to attack less. I feel that being able to support freely while invincible would actually be much better. But that would reflect poorly on what that Last Word spellcard actually does.
Have you tested this maneuver in game?
I also could make it so the initiator returns at the end of his turn if he makes any offensive action while out of the map. And merely require being at full Kappowa to be able initiate it.

Offline CKirk

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Re: Super Youkai Warhead: A new wave of technological progress!
« Reply #26 on: September 15, 2017, 01:52:13 AM »
On the topic of Strike/Boost confusion, from what I recall of Tome of Battle, Boosts are things that improve your non-attacking capabilities, or are defensive, such as Iron Heart Surge which clears debuffs on you (regardless of its poor wording, that is the clear intent). Strikes are things that improve your attacks. So what I believe Siflux is trying to imply with those is that they should be changed from boosts to strikes and include an attack action.

Offline siflux

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Re: Super Youkai Warhead: A new wave of technological progress!
« Reply #27 on: September 15, 2017, 02:28:57 AM »
Depends. Among the Tobhou/SRW martial disciplines I don't think Swift movement is all that new. For example, Martial Machine has Quick March at level 1 that grants 10 mu plus 5 mu per PL movement as a swift action along with twin-linked melee weapon attacks and that movement doesn't have to be in a straight line that respects AoE. It is useful though in that it doesn't require further EN for the movement.
I'm not sure I understand the Heavy weapon bit, since this maneuver isn't actually doing damage. Nor specially using an actual weapon to do what it does. Many of the later Kapowa options are more or less made redundant if you have access to advanced Wire special weapons, which is likely to be the case but could be used in addition to them, of course.
I just realized I was accidentally breaking the rules, so there's no issue with Farewell Rubber Ring. My typical use case for Farewell Rubber Ring was to basically teleport ~80mu to line up a perfect shot and then use a Heavy Area weapon to destroy a carefully targeted line of enemies. However, Heavy weapons take a Full-Round Action to use, which means I shouldn't have had a Swift action available to use Farewell Rubber Ring before shooting. This removes my only concern with the maneuver. Wire weapons doing basically the same thing as a Swift is also an excellent point that I hadn't considered.

It is basically the Solid Snake smash-ball ult.
The invincibility is double-edged since while you're away you cannot help nor be supported by the party and (although it may not be as clear as I want it to be) you always return to the spot where you left. Your offensive actions are also limited to normal attacks and when you're back all your kappowa options are out for a while (including using the stance again).
Personally I find that it isn't all that good since the number of attacks possible is capped and only normal attacks are possible. Especially considering that to really benefit from the invincibility you need to attack less. I feel that being able to support freely while invincible would actually be much better. But that would reflect poorly on what that Last Word spellcard actually does.
Have you tested this maneuver in game?
I also could make it so the initiator returns at the end of his turn if he makes any offensive action while out of the map. And merely require being at full Kappowa to be able initiate it.
Thanks for the video link! I'm not high enough level to have tested this one yet, so my concerns are entirely theoretical. If I hit a high enough level and pick it up, I'll fill you in on the results in actual use. Until then, I don't have enough of a personal stake to push for nerfing it, beyond my inherent unease with the power of what it allows you to do.

Offline Anomander

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Re: Super Youkai Warhead: A new wave of technological progress!
« Reply #28 on: September 15, 2017, 08:35:02 AM »
Quote
On the topic of Strike/Boost confusion, from what I recall of Tome of Battle, Boosts are things that improve your non-attacking capabilities, or are defensive, such as Iron Heart Surge which clears debuffs on you (regardless of its poor wording, that is the clear intent). Strikes are things that improve your attacks. So what I believe Siflux is trying to imply with those is that they should be changed from boosts to strikes and include an attack action.
I clearly remember Desert Wind Boosts adding bonus fire damage to your attacks.

Quote
I just realized I was accidentally breaking the rules, so there's no issue with Farewell Rubber Ring. My typical use case for Farewell Rubber Ring was to basically teleport ~80mu to line up a perfect shot and then use a Heavy Area weapon to destroy a carefully targeted line of enemies. However, Heavy weapons take a Full-Round Action to use, which means I shouldn't have had a Swift action available to use Farewell Rubber Ring before shooting. This removes my only concern with the maneuver. Wire weapons doing basically the same thing as a Swift is also an excellent point that I hadn't considered.
You weren't. Full-round actions do not include Swift and Immediate actions. Link