Author Topic: General Discussion and Suggestions  (Read 211721 times)

Offline Anomander

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Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #220 on: November 28, 2013, 04:04:17 AM »
Miniaturization (SRU) states it can be selected once every 4th pilot level, down to diminutive at pilot level 12. Shouldn't it end at Fine at pilot level 16, as colossal is?

Also, if your mecha is shrunk to diminutive/tiny, its reach on mecha scale becomes 0 mu. If you translate that to normal scale, 0 mu is also 0 feet.
So does a mecha that is diminutive/tiny on mecha scale and medium/large on regular scale have to enter the space of those it means to attack in order to hit them, since their regular scale reach is technically 0 feet?
« Last Edit: November 28, 2013, 06:48:57 AM by Anomander »

Offline Raineh Daze

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Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #221 on: November 28, 2013, 06:12:22 AM »
I'm curious why a small creature can't get all the way down to Mecha Size Fine (since isn't Diminutive Large?)

I think your problem here, Ano, is using its mecha scale reach rather than just calculating reach fresh for its size on the normal scale.

Offline Anomander

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Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #222 on: November 28, 2013, 06:53:06 AM »
I know that would be the normal thing to do. But I'm talking straight conversion of scale since mechas weren't meant to behave on normal scale and that is how they technically should work as written (since Medium-size in MU is colossal-size in normal, but its stats are always those of a medium-sized creature on both scales).

Offline Raineh Daze

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Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #223 on: November 28, 2013, 06:54:45 AM »
So... why are we adopting the counter-intuitive approach when this stuff has, to my knowledge, been used once? :huh

Offline Anomander

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Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #224 on: November 28, 2013, 07:11:14 AM »
I am not adopting it. It is merely read as written. Maybe this is supposed to happen for all I know.

Offline Raineh Daze

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Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #225 on: November 28, 2013, 07:15:25 AM »
So... what? You're extrapolating that from size penalties not applying against normal-scale enemies to 'reach does not increase from 0'? Despite the fact that a Medium-sized mecha (in normal terms) is fully capable of moving and of humanoid dimensions, and would consequently have at least 5' reach?

... also, this makes me really want to play an Anthromorphic Animal Butterfly Sneaky Type//Super Pilot (if only I could find a way to get those last two size categories down. :()

Offline Anomander

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Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #226 on: November 28, 2013, 07:43:27 AM »
Not really. I am asking if, because Tiny/Diminutive mu-sized mechas are using the same stats as Tiny/Diminutive-sized creatures on normal scale, they also share the reach of 0 feet/0 mu.

A Diminutive mecha has the same space as a large creature, but it is not large. They have the stats of a diminutive creature except for weapon size. A medium-sized creature would have the same trouble hitting the size bonus to AC of that mecha as if it was diminutive even though it is larger that it is.
« Last Edit: November 28, 2013, 07:55:52 AM by Anomander »

Offline Raineh Daze

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Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #227 on: November 28, 2013, 07:53:23 AM »
But that's size bonuses, not reach. Need more evidence than that to justify making the size rules even wordier. :/

Offline Anomander

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Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #228 on: November 28, 2013, 07:58:49 AM »
No no no. That was only an example of why a Diminutive mecha isn't treated the same as a large creature.
Quote
Miniaturization: The super robot becomes one size category smaller, gaining all standard advantages and penalties except ability score changes, and it's Natural armor and In Built weapons damage doesn't change either. This can only be taken once for every 4 pilot levels, up to diminutive size at 12th pilot level.
Notice that it states that all the standard advantages and penalties are gained. This is meant to include reach, I would think.

Also, the Sentient SRU Imprint states the SuRo gets its pilot's stats while it is out of it. Are these stats meant to be limited to his ability scores, or is it all his stats, in general.

The Transform: Fighter also increases your speed by 1.5
Just to make it isn't multiplying it by 1.5 instead of adding 1.5 your speed.
Someone with a speed of 30 in the former would have 45 and 75 in the later (and how it is currently written).
« Last Edit: November 28, 2013, 10:31:56 PM by Anomander »

Offline oslecamo

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Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #229 on: November 29, 2013, 04:29:34 PM »
Miniaturization (SRU) states it can be selected once every 4th pilot level, down to diminutive at pilot level 12. Shouldn't it end at Fine at pilot level 16, as colossal is?
Because that would end with a medium-sized mecha, which is basically mechanized armor, and we already have Moon Vanguard for that.

Also, if your mecha is shrunk to diminutive/tiny, its reach on mecha scale becomes 0 mu. If you translate that to normal scale, 0 mu is also 0 feet.
So does a mecha that is diminutive/tiny on mecha scale and medium/large on regular scale have to enter the space of those it means to attack in order to hit them, since their regular scale reach is technically 0 feet?
Yes.

Also, the Sentient SRU Imprint states the SuRo gets its pilot's stats while it is out of it. Are these stats meant to be limited to his ability scores, or is it all his stats, in general.
Just ability scores, otherwise it would be redudant to include feats and skills.

The Transform: Fighter also increases your speed by 1.5
Just to make it isn't multiplying it by 1.5 instead of adding 1.5 your speed.
Someone with a speed of 30 in the former would have 45 and 75 in the later (and how it is currently written).
Multiplications in D&D only add unless noted otherwise.

Offline Raineh Daze

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Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #230 on: November 29, 2013, 04:35:16 PM »
Miniaturization (SRU) states it can be selected once every 4th pilot level, down to diminutive at pilot level 12. Shouldn't it end at Fine at pilot level 16, as colossal is?
Because that would end with a medium-sized mecha, which is basically mechanized armor, and we already have Moon Vanguard for that.

Except Moon Vanguard can grow and doesn't need for you to be smaller than the mecha itself, does it?

Also, if your mecha is shrunk to diminutive/tiny, its reach on mecha scale becomes 0 mu. If you translate that to normal scale, 0 mu is also 0 feet.
So does a mecha that is diminutive/tiny on mecha scale and medium/large on regular scale have to enter the space of those it means to attack in order to hit them, since their regular scale reach is technically 0 feet?
Yes.

Wait, so if we had one Diminutive mecha against a party of unarmoured adventurers, it would need to enter their spaces to attack? :eh
« Last Edit: November 29, 2013, 04:36:57 PM by Raineh Daze »

Offline oslecamo

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Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #231 on: November 29, 2013, 04:48:46 PM »
Moon Vanguard needs you to be smaller than the mecha itself, and the "growth" lasts a pretty short time.

Wait, so if we had one Diminutive mecha against a party of unarmoured adventurers, it would need to enter their spaces to attack? :eh

If you were fighting in mecha scale, and the mecha wanted to get in melee, yes. But the adventurers wouldn't get an aoo since their own reach would be 0.

Offline Raineh Daze

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Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #232 on: November 29, 2013, 04:51:51 PM »
Moon Vanguard needs you to be smaller than the mecha itself, and the "growth" lasts a pretty short time.

... so you can only get a medium-sized mecha with a small race? No different from this. And you can still achieve the same effect as a medium-sized Moon Vanguard by picking miniaturisation whenever you can. :huh

And short time or not, it's still an option. Pick miniaturisation and you're putting finite resources towards always being small.

Quote
Wait, so if we had one Diminutive mecha against a party of unarmoured adventurers, it would need to enter their spaces to attack? :eh

If you were fighting in mecha scale, and the mecha wanted to get in melee, yes. But the adventurers wouldn't get an aoo since their own reach would be 0.
[/quote]

But on normal scale? :O

Offline oslecamo

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Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #233 on: November 29, 2013, 05:30:26 PM »
Moon Vanguard needs you to be smaller than the mecha itself, and the "growth" lasts a pretty short time.

... so you can only get a medium-sized mecha with a small race? No different from this. And you can still achieve the same effect as a medium-sized Moon Vanguard by picking miniaturisation whenever you can. :huh
My bad, you need to be the same size as the mecha or smaller for Moon Vanguard.

And short time or not, it's still an option. Pick miniaturisation and you're putting finite resources towards always being small.
You're missing the part where the actual mecha has mecha speed and mecha range all the time. Part of the mecha basis is that mechas won't fit in tight places where regular humanoids can escape into. But if miniaturization goes all the way to diminutive, then we have the whole evil subterranean society/underground HQ of the good guys wiped out by a single kiting supersonic mecha that easily goes anywhere the dudes on foot can, but has unmatched speed and range.

But on normal scale? :O
Then the miniaturized mecha would  be large-sized, and be able to punch them from 10 feet away.

Offline Raineh Daze

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Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #234 on: November 29, 2013, 05:38:16 PM »
And short time or not, it's still an option. Pick miniaturisation and you're putting finite resources towards always being small.
You're missing the part where the actual mecha has mecha speed and mecha range all the time. Part of the mecha basis is that mechas won't fit in tight places where regular humanoids can escape into. But if miniaturization goes all the way to diminutive, then we have the whole evil subterranean society/underground HQ of the good guys wiped out by a single kiting supersonic mecha that easily goes anywhere the dudes on foot can, but has unmatched speed and range.

This is at level 16. :/

... also, are we assuming the guy in question has Spring Attack and/or Shot on the Run, here? :huh

Offline Anomander

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Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #235 on: November 29, 2013, 06:16:14 PM »
The idea of having a Fine mecha was mostly intended for smaller creatures. Since a mecha cannot be smaller than his pilot to begin with. Nanoarmor have different rules since they work as armors while a mecha is more of an armed vehicle.
I don't mind your decision. It was mere curiosity.

Quote
Multiplications in D&D only add unless noted otherwise.
Yes, but in your homebrew you previously told me the contrary; multipliers stack unless you say otherwise.
If you're using it now, thought, then great!

In this case, however, it isn't a situation of multiplicative addition as ruled in D&D (that being the use of the sum of the involved multipliers instead of multiplying them together). Since there is only one multiplier, it has no other multiplier to add itself to (such as two doubles becoming a triple instead of a quadruple). You're adding a value to a stat, that value being the stat multiplied.
This situation is the question of whether the multiplied value is added to the result or if it multiplies the result.
If it is only meant to multiply the value, without any addition whatsoever, it should just multiply it instead of adding something to it.

Quote
But on normal scale? :O
Technically nothing special should happen on normal scale.
You'd have a combat map for those in normal scale and one for the mechas on mecha scale.
The diminutive mecha would share its space with the non-mechas on mecha scale to attack them.
The only problem with that is determining where the mecha is supposed to be located on normal scale, where precision actually matters to the non-mechas. Which makes Osle's ruling of giving them normal scale reach an ideal solution.
Quote
... also, are we assuming the guy in question has Spring Attack and/or Shot on the Run, here?
Nah, it is all about the fact that their movement and attack range is in MU scale. You can kite them easily when your 5ft step sends you 30ft away.

Offline Raineh Daze

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Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #236 on: November 29, 2013, 06:28:17 PM »
Quote
... also, are we assuming the guy in question has Spring Attack and/or Shot on the Run, here?
Nah, it is all about the fact that their movement and attack range is in MU scale. You can kite them easily when your 5ft step sends you 30ft away.

Would still provoke an AoO (with real scale being medium) without Spring Attack, and without Shot on the Run you wouldn't be able to get far enough away to prevent retribution unless the enemies have no ranged attacks anyway, which makes kiting them kind of easy.

Plus you become vulnerable to all those AoO's you might be able to ignore.

Offline Anomander

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Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #237 on: November 29, 2013, 06:46:20 PM »
I'm not sure I'm following you. I don't see how those apply.
5ft steps being an example. You don't need to move in range before moving away with Shot on the Run when you can just always keep them within your insane range and move out of theirs when they get close enough (assuming large open spaces without obstacles, which works for normal mechas vs nonmecha combat anyway).
Anyway, it certainly give an advantage. Which is pretty much the one reason one would want a smaller mecha: getting in smaller places without tearing them apart.
« Last Edit: November 29, 2013, 07:00:19 PM by Anomander »

Offline Raineh Daze

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Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #238 on: November 29, 2013, 06:58:56 PM »
If a mecha is inside, I'd imagine range would be severely curtailed by default. If a mecha is not inside, this argument is moot because it's about whether allowing mecha to be Fine on an MU scale would make sense or not.

Well... going inside in a mecha is kind of the whole point of hammering down their damage like a madman. That, and hiding, and some bonuses.

Offline ketaro

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Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #239 on: January 05, 2014, 08:34:24 AM »
So on the Real Robot list we have the RapieCage at rank VI. It's Over Oxtongue Rifle B mode has a range of 75 dam?
Does this translate into 'dam huge range' or something? -_-'