Min/Max Boards

Gaming Discussion => D&D 3.5 and Pathfinder => Min/Max 3.x => Topic started by: Stratovarius on September 02, 2017, 03:05:32 AM

Title: A Min/Max Challenge
Post by: Stratovarius on September 02, 2017, 03:05:32 AM
It's a pretty simple one:

Make a Scorpionfolk (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/scorpionfolk.htm) into a viable party contributor at ECL 16. It's probably impossible, but that's why I'm asking here.
Title: Re: A Min/Max Challenge
Post by: oslecamo on September 02, 2017, 07:26:37 AM
Assuming your average barbarian/fighter ubercharger/tripper is a "viable party contributor", I don't see much reasons why you couldn't do it with the scorpionfolk too. Plenty of ways to get pounce with feats or items. Losing 4 Bab hurts, but large size, three natural weapons and +8 Str should allow you to pull about the same numbers than the barbarian/fighter.

The biggest weakness is losing 4 HD to LA, in particular HP will be hurting but hey two good saves, Reflex and Will, plus +4 Wis. The +4 Cha along large size opens up an Intimidate build. I'll take the +6 nat armor too since non-casters usually have a pretty hard time boosting their AC.

Title: Re: A Min/Max Challenge
Post by: Skyrock on September 02, 2017, 09:25:33 AM
Arctic Template could help a tiny bit.

With its three natural attacks, high strength and large size, grappling may be a viable side job just requiring Snatch, still having 4 feats wiggling room.

There's also Leadership to get a companion with actual class levels even if it is just to buff, but that just shows off how good Leadership is even 4 levels behind the curve and has nothing to do with Scorpionfolk.
Title: Re: A Min/Max Challenge
Post by: Nifft on September 21, 2017, 02:23:46 AM
So, 12 racial HD and LA +4 -- at ECL 16.

That's zero class levels.

Can we get level-drained down to 1 RHD, then replace that one RHD wit a class level, and ultimately take a total of 12 class levels instead of having any RHD?

If that's not possible, can we gestalt the RHD with class levels?
Title: Re: A Min/Max Challenge
Post by: Stratovarius on September 21, 2017, 06:42:08 AM
Nope
Title: Re: A Min/Max Challenge
Post by: Nifft on September 21, 2017, 07:36:39 AM
LA buyoff at level 12 gives you one class level or LA +1 template to get back to ECL 16.

Since you specify by ECL rather than total XP, the LA buyoff XP are free.

That bit of rule-lawyering may be the optimization ceiling.

What do do with that one level or template?
Title: Re: A Min/Max Challenge
Post by: phaedrusxy on September 21, 2017, 02:27:17 PM
Feats and items could add a few tob nuggets which might help. Probably focus on grappling.
Title: Re: A Min/Max Challenge
Post by: awaken_D_M_golem on September 21, 2017, 06:11:13 PM
RHD don't count as "class levels" for LA Buy-off.  :poke


Ability Focus + other stacks on the poison, won't impact much.
Charging and/or Grapple (2nding) with a dash of ToB.

1 feat weaker version of Sam the Commoner.
Minor Bloodline would fit, the bigger 2 bloodlines technically
wouldn't have gotten to ecl 16 yet (wtf when LAs happen too).
2 flaws of course.

CL of 10 with a 3rd level spell, could get some weird stacking maybe .
Title: Re: A Min/Max Challenge
Post by: Nifft on September 22, 2017, 02:36:44 AM
RHD don't count as "class levels" for LA Buy-off.  :poke

Did you think someone suggested that?

You know the monster entry has 12 RHD and LA +4, right?
Title: Re: A Min/Max Challenge
Post by: Nanshork on September 22, 2017, 12:23:50 PM
RHD don't count as "class levels" for LA Buy-off.  :poke

Did you think someone suggested that?

You know the monster entry has 12 RHD and LA +4, right?

I think his point is that the 12 RHD can't be used as levels to buy off the LA.

 Per the SRD, "For instance, a gnoll's level adjustment is +1. When a gnoll character gains his third class level (remember, the gnoll's 2 starting Hit Dice don't count), he can pay an XP cost to reduce his level adjustment to +0".
Title: Re: A Min/Max Challenge
Post by: Keldar on September 23, 2017, 04:19:07 AM
Buy gear for rest of party.  Die.  Roll new character that doesn't suck like an Umbral Blot.
Meantime do standard ubercharger junk since even a Commoner can rocket tag with that.  Puts the DM in morton's fork, either you kill the yard trash or roll a character that isn't trash too.  ;)
Title: Re: A Min/Max Challenge
Post by: phaedrusxy on September 23, 2017, 11:01:33 AM
Buy gear for rest of party.  Die.  Roll new character that doesn't suck like an Umbral Blot.
:lol
Title: Re: A Min/Max Challenge
Post by: Stratovarius on September 23, 2017, 02:12:00 PM
Buy gear for rest of party.  Die.  Roll new character that doesn't suck like an Umbral Blot.
:lol

This is kind of the response I was expecting (because it's an awful race).  :clap
Title: Re: A Min/Max Challenge
Post by: Keldar on September 25, 2017, 04:03:05 AM
Buy gear for rest of party.  Die.  Roll new character that doesn't suck like an Umbral Blot.
:lol

This is kind of the response I was expecting (because it's an awful race).  :clap
95% of the ones above 1LA are awful.  WotC was terrified of non-standard races and made awful rules for them and didn't have the brass to revisit them after the half edition.  The existence of Polymorph type abilities just makes them all that much worse.
Title: Re: A Min/Max Challenge
Post by: Stratovarius on September 25, 2017, 09:08:38 AM
95% of the ones above 1LA are awful.  WotC was terrified of non-standard races and made awful rules for them and didn't have the brass to revisit them after the half edition.  The existence of Polymorph type abilities just makes them all that much worse.

I am aware - I'm fixing a few of them as I go (http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=18173.0). Because it would be nice to see those races actually playable.

As for the Scorpionfolk and its absurd CR 7/ECL 16, it appears the only minmax option available is to either abuse leadership or ubercharging, and that there really are no other alternatives inside the constraints of the race. Am I correct?
Title: Re: A Min/Max Challenge
Post by: SorO_Lost on September 25, 2017, 10:41:25 AM
It's a pretty simple one: Make a Scorpionfolk (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/scorpionfolk.htm) into a viable party contributor at ECL 16. It's probably impossible, but that's why I'm asking here.
I feel like I'd make you're point if I suggested Energy Drain and a bunch of failed Saves.

But at ECL 4, +3 LA after Buy-Off and 1RHD, having an ability bonus of +8/+2/+2/-2/+4/+4, Large Size, three Natural Weapons, AC-Reducing Poison, +10 to "normal" Land Speed, Resist 5, SR 18, +6 AC, and the utility plan of Major Image (not to mention popping mirror image before an ambush), it seems like a very formidable and intelligent brute. Maybe it's lack of HP is a factor to prevent if from replacing entire Classes?
Title: Re: A Min/Max Challenge
Post by: Keldar on September 26, 2017, 05:25:18 AM
Or instead of level draining shenanigans that would only fly in the most CO of games; play a centaur.  Gives you the important size and strength, while wasting 10 fewer levels.  You can get the SLAs and scorpion tail through vastly, vastly more useful class levels.  Scorpionfolk is so bad, other bad races mock it and steal its lunch money.
Title: Re: A Min/Max Challenge
Post by: ketaro on September 26, 2017, 07:05:55 AM
Or instead of level draining shenanigans that would only fly in the most CO of games

Well this is a min/max challenge.....it doesn't really matter what would or wouldn't fly in a hypothetical game run by a hypothetical DM.....
Title: Re: A Min/Max Challenge
Post by: Stratovarius on September 26, 2017, 09:20:00 AM
It does, however, sidestep the challenge, because you're no longer optimizing a Scorpionfolk - you're optimizing a series of class levels with a small selection of racial abilities and characteristics. It's a method of removing the actual high RHD race from the equation and replacing it with something else.
Title: Re: A Min/Max Challenge
Post by: SorO_Lost on September 26, 2017, 11:14:42 AM
you're no longer optimizing a Scorpionfolk - you're optimizing a series of class levels with a small selection of racial abilities and characteristics.
Well I didn't actually mention any Class Levels, simply removed the intended-to-balance RHD and let the rest of the Scorpionfolk's Racial Features speak for them selves, and I already called your reaction in my post too.

If I start talking about Power Attack & Shock Trooper you'll just claim charging is broken and not the Scorpionfolk. If I start talking about Staffs & Persisted buffs you'll just claim Spells is broken and not the Scorpionfolk. If I simply give it a Manyfanger Dagger to quadruple it's damage you'll just claim the dagger is broken and not the Scorpionfolk.

You have posted on here for the sole purpose of confirming your idea that RHD/LA is bad , and so you chosen a monster with one of the highest ratios of RHD/LA to Racial Abilities and you have decided on a strict criteria on what's acceptable and not (and anything that works is "not") to ensure you get your proper support for it.

If you're ever going to write that DM's guide to adjusting LA for their campaigns guide you'll have to overcome your limitations.
Title: Re: A Min/Max Challenge
Post by: Stratovarius on September 26, 2017, 11:56:57 AM
Actually, no I wouldn't, but thank you for putting words in my mouth because you were too unobservant & biased to see the data that counteracted it. You may have noticed that ubercharging was the first suggestion in this thread - and I said not a word against it. It's a valid optimization strategy and is indeed the expected one for creating a Scorpionfolk that can contribute at a table.

So, come back when you've got a valid argument.
Title: Re: A Min/Max Challenge
Post by: SorO_Lost on September 26, 2017, 01:19:56 PM
and I said not a word against it.
You mean other than calling it an improperly used mechanic?
it appears the only minmax option available is to either abuse leadership or ubercharging
You also thought using someone else entirely via Leadership is a valid option but accidentally dying, or fighting undead, or casting spells on your self is what again?
It does, however, sidestep the challenge, because you're no longer optimizing a Scorpionfolk
Kind of speaks for it's self don't it?

So, come back when you've got a valid argument.
That's the best rebuttal you could come up with?

You should have gone with this.
Quote from: SorO pretending to be a better Stratovarius posting a rebuttal to SorO's comments
SorO you should know better than to say something I disagree with and encourage me to do something useful with my time. Haven't you heard of this?
Quote from: The Backfire Effect
The Misconception: When your beliefs are challenged with facts, you alter your opinions and incorporate the new information into your thinking.
The Truth: When your deepest convictions are challenged by contradictory evidence, your beliefs get stronger.
Now I'm stuck pretending your comment doesn't matter for the rest of my life. Well if you'll excuse me, I need to create a thread called "min/max this human with sixteen levels in commoner" or "Sharn prove RHD don't always suck" since this is totally not about RHD/LA being terrible but the first of my GitP-like Iron Chief optimization threads.
And to that I say: Cool, Leadership & Charging are not the only answers. There are several, and I kind of already wrote a guide on just a couple of them (http://storm-shelter.minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=240.msg929#msg929).
Title: Re: A Min/Max Challenge
Post by: awaken_D_M_golem on September 30, 2017, 04:25:31 PM
 :hide


so, 12 class levels for the +4la +12rhd = ecl 26.
Perhaps going the other way can work.

Throw in Half Minotaur and Half Ogre for +5la.
Need to drop 1 rhd , which can happen via a
Savage Species style racial progression.

It'd be a small handwave, but we can be almost
entirely sure it's 1 rhd (=1ecl?) which is easy to do.
Hold off on what class ability for a moment.

Next add in a Major Bloodline, which fits, but
puts a small exp hinky into the middle.  Now it
needs to be down another ecl, which might be
a +1LA or another 1rhd.  BUT bloodline levels
would boost back anything numbers reduced.

Result = 10rhd +5la +3 bloodline levels, almost
all of  the racial prog minus a smidge, down 1hd feat,
up 2 flaw feats + 5 bloodline feats = +6 feats total,
massive str boost, combined with an "18" in point buy. 
Minor dose of exp available for various uses.

-1 or -2 down on the PHB2 gear bonus schedule, hurts a bit.
Use some of the gear + feats, to get some of the post 2013
Monk-style power-up going.

Title: Re: A Min/Max Challenge
Post by: Endarire on September 30, 2017, 11:22:54 PM
Can you use Savage Species rituals to turn yourself into something more useful, like via wishing?
Title: Re: A Min/Max Challenge
Post by: Nifft on October 01, 2017, 12:38:33 PM
RHD don't count as "class levels" for LA Buy-off.  :poke

Did you think someone suggested that?

You know the monster entry has 12 RHD and LA +4, right?

I think his point is that the 12 RHD can't be used as levels to buy off the LA.

 Per the SRD, "For instance, a gnoll's level adjustment is +1. When a gnoll character gains his third class level (remember, the gnoll's 2 starting Hit Dice don't count), he can pay an XP cost to reduce his level adjustment to +0".

Huh, it does say that:

Quote from: SRD
Once the total of a character's class levels (not including any Hit Dice from his creature type or his level adjustment) reaches three times his level adjustment, his level adjustment is eligible to be decreased by 1.

Welp, I guess RHD are even worse than they'd previously appeared.
Title: Re: A Min/Max Challenge
Post by: Surreal on October 01, 2017, 03:00:37 PM
Can we buy off enough LA to stuff Monster of Legend in there so we can shoehorn some casting? I dunno, or something stupid like Ardent with Practiced Manifester, or shove a Totemist 2 in there. It's been so long since I've done CO that I don't remember anything anymore  :P
Title: Re: A Min/Max Challenge
Post by: SorO_Lost on October 01, 2017, 03:14:00 PM
Welp, I guess RHD are even worse than they'd previously appeared.
It all depends on if it's RHD or LA being used to counterbalance the monster. Like a Mind Flayer uses Aberration RHD over Psion improving it's HP/BAB and nets +1 level of Manifesting instead of a Bonus Feat or two. They use LA, rather than RHD, as a cost to offset the extra bonuses it's RHD provide.

It's just the replacement deal for RHD is limited to having a single die while as the MM/SS discuss LA is semi-varible and the UA gives mechanics for Players to reduce it up to +3 as well so in a broad sense RHD is normally worse.

Can we buy off enough LA to stuff Monster of Legend in there so we can shoehorn some casting?
It's +7 LA, you can't buy off a point of it and it'll result in an ECL of 23.

You're probably better off using Ur-Priest to grab some casting and maybe Animate Dread Warrior with the standard Desecrate/Corpsecrafter combo to improve your stats a little bit. It's a shame Spell-Stitched is LA -.
Title: Re: A Min/Max Challenge
Post by: awaken_D_M_golem on October 04, 2017, 07:13:24 PM
Can you use Savage Species rituals to turn yourself into something more useful, like via wishing?

along those lines ... 12 rhd monstrous + a PAO, 
Gather Info skill max'd to find said caster
=  :P who said Scorpionfolk I'm a (X)_____________ now !!
Title: Re: A Min/Max Challenge
Post by: phaedrusxy on October 04, 2017, 08:02:30 PM
Can you use Savage Species rituals to turn yourself into something more useful, like via wishing?

along those lines ... 12 rhd monstrous + a PAO, 
Gather Info skill max'd to find said caster
=  :P who said Scorpionfolk I'm a (X)_____________ now !!
I think that's a lot less cheesy and might actually fly in some games.
Title: Re: A Min/Max Challenge
Post by: SorO_Lost on October 07, 2017, 10:58:35 AM
I think that's a lot less cheesy and might actually fly in some games.
By Pelor I hope no one thinks it'll fly.

Per MM1, pages 5~7, LA is part of a monster's characteristics. This is often overlooked when using stuff like Shapechange since casting Spells in combat generally doesn't alter XP rewards but we're talking a permanent change. Further more SS's Wish Rituals, which require you to talk to the DM to even use in the first place, has a caveat that the DM may force a percentile chance on obtaining the various Special Abilities of the creature and even goes so far as to state, "It is entirely possible to fail every roll and gain the characteristics of a goal creature but none of the creature’s special attacks or special qualities"
Title: Re: A Min/Max Challenge
Post by: phaedrusxy on October 07, 2017, 01:40:36 PM
I didn't intend for it to bypass the la.
Title: Re: A Min/Max Challenge
Post by: SorO_Lost on October 07, 2017, 06:38:25 PM
I didn't intend for it to bypass the la.
Eh, changing Characters is faster. Can you can even keep the same character's memories by using a Scroll of Mind Rape. :)

Also if the DM is pretty consenting, Darklight Wizard would totally fix those RHD too and it really doesn't matter if you have up to +10LA.
Title: Re: A Min/Max Challenge
Post by: nijineko on October 08, 2017, 05:26:44 PM
Title: Re: A Min/Max Challenge
Post by: Surreal on October 11, 2017, 06:06:36 PM
I seem to recall there's a very twinky template somewhere that gives wildshape at a level higher than usual for very low LA. Combine that with some item or other PrC cheesiness could be somewhat doable, but basically all we're doing is yet another version of substituting out.
Title: Re: A Min/Max Challenge
Post by: awaken_D_M_golem on October 11, 2017, 06:18:15 PM
Y'know Surreal, for being 6 years out of it rusty
... (and that grad school excuse ho hum) ...
dropping part of the level 5 punpun into the middle of things, is like BOOM !!
Title: Re: A Min/Max Challenge
Post by: SorO_Lost on October 12, 2017, 01:11:41 PM
Pun-Pun requires Manipulate Form through, which requires a bit more things to access and even use.

Just hand the character a Shield of the Sun and pretend it's the Scorpionfolk version of Thor.
Title: Re: A Min/Max Challenge
Post by: Surreal on October 14, 2017, 12:13:41 PM
Y'know Surreal, for being 6 years out of it rusty
... (and that grad school excuse ho hum) ...
dropping part of the level 5 punpun into the middle of things, is like BOOM !!

Hah I had forgotten about Punpun... I was thinking more that silly Divine Minion template: http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mb/20050209a
and just wombling about from there  :P

Oh man, good memory on the grad school thing. Sadly that didn't pan out in the long run and 9 years of grad school went down the drain. Life, an extended illness, a rough divorce... and that thesis was holding me down in a bad place. Had to let go if I valued my mental health. But the last year or so has been a road to recovery, so I'm in a much better place now.
Title: Re: A Min/Max Challenge
Post by: awaken_D_M_golem on October 14, 2017, 03:43:59 PM
oh those Half-Orc Wom'n ... watch out boys they'll chew you up.
hall + oats tune
Title: Re: A Min/Max Challenge
Post by: Surreal on October 15, 2017, 05:18:39 PM
Thought she was a succubus at first, but turns out she was a vampire  :-\
Title: Re: A Min/Max Challenge
Post by: phaedrusxy on October 15, 2017, 09:03:43 PM
Thought she was a succubus at first, but turns out she was a vampire  :-\
Is there really much of a difference, in the end? :P
Title: Re: A Min/Max Challenge
Post by: Surreal on October 15, 2017, 11:25:34 PM
Is there really much of a difference, in the end? :P

The vampire gets Dominate Person. With enough energy drains and circumstance modifiers, you start willingly failing those saving throws until that clause that protects you from self-harm doesn't apply anymore.
Title: Re: A Min/Max Challenge
Post by: phaedrusxy on October 16, 2017, 01:26:34 PM
The succubus gets Charm Monster and Energy Drain... So... I guess the ability to force someone to self harm really is the only difference, eh? :p
Title: Re: A Min/Max Challenge
Post by: SorO_Lost on October 16, 2017, 01:32:08 PM
If you're charming enough you can convince anyone to try a little self harm ;)
Title: Re: A Min/Max Challenge
Post by: Keldar on October 17, 2017, 03:08:41 AM
The only difference between a Succubus and a Vampire, is with a Vampire you get second date in 1d4 Days.
Title: Re: A Min/Max Challenge
Post by: awaken_D_M_golem on October 17, 2017, 05:15:06 PM
Do you wanna go out as a Top, or
do you wanna go out as a Bottom forever ...
Title: Re: A Min/Max Challenge
Post by: phaedrusxy on October 17, 2017, 08:49:17 PM
Do you wanna go out as a Top, or
do you wanna go out as a Bottom forever ...
:lol
Title: Re: A Min/Max Challenge
Post by: popanas on February 16, 2018, 02:53:21 PM
Challenge accepted.
Title: Re: A Min/Max Challenge
Post by: PlzBreakMyCampaign on February 20, 2018, 10:58:36 PM
This thread is a poster child for why my ECL variant is required for any kind of balanced play with monsters. Even then its got too many RHD for my variant to save you: it's a centaur with LA inflation.
Title: Re: A Min/Max Challenge
Post by: Keldar on February 20, 2018, 11:20:56 PM
This thread is a poster child for why my ECL variant is required for any kind of balanced play with monsters. Even then its got too many RHD for my variant to save you: it's a centaur with LA inflation.
You could get everything and then some at the same level by making a Centaur Totemist.  Even with the bog standard ECL rules.
Title: Re: A Min/Max Challenge
Post by: popanas on February 27, 2018, 04:18:12 PM
If we were able to make something viable out of a truenamer, well we can do something with anything. This is not too hard in fact, the main objective is just to make it relevent for a group of lvl 16 character, so we want to make him able to take on a chalenge rating 16 or 17 by himself. What follows is an interesting solution to it. (With very slight roleplay for the character.)

First we redo his stats with the classic 32 point buy as follow (including all bonuses from items, levels, etc... (R = racial, E = enchancement, I = inherent)
STR   17   +8R+6E+4I+3lvl   38   +14
DEX   13   +2R            15   +2
CON   16   +2R+2E+2I      22   +6
INT   8   -2R            6   -2
WIS   8   +4R            12   +1
CHA   12   +4R            16   +3

Then for his feats, we first take 2 flaws to increase the number of feats available and take the following for an interesting combo.
Flaw1-   exotic weapon proficiency Ribbon light mace Required for lightning mace
Flaw2-   Two weapon fighting Required for lightning mace
1-      weapon focus ribbon light mace Required for lightning mace
3-      Combat reflexes Required for lightning mace
6-      Lightning mace The bread and butter
9-      Leadership To get a kaorti Marshal 1, Fiend of possession 6, uncanny trickster 3
12-      Improved cohort To add a crusader level to our Fiend of possession


Then we need to take care of his equipment, and by abusing custom items we can give him some very interesting gear as follow
16th   260,000 gp
48000    Boots of lion's charge Custom item giving lion charge permanently
40000    Enervating arm +4 str inherent bonus DC 14 against negative level Much cheaper than wiches
19500    +1 keen aptitude kaorti Great falchion,  3d6,  15–20/×4,  —,  24 lb.,  Slashing His main weapon, possessed by the FoP
19500    +1 keen aptitude kaorti Great falchion,  3d6,  15–20/×4,  —,  24 lb.,  Slashing His second weapon... wait... 2 2handers?
16170   +1 Gleaming Leather armor Good source of miss chance
36000   Belt of str +6 no comment
4000      Necklace of con +2 no comment
8000    Strong legs +2 inherent to con Cheaper than upgrading the +2 ench to +4
8000      Gloves of the balance hand ITWF, prety cheap
10000   Power attack bracer acording to arms and equipment guide
45000   cloak of Girralon blessing Custom item giving girralon blessing permanently

500      Everlasting ration Carrying food is lame
5000      Small manor in a random metropolis
330      coffee and cookies for his Mob and cohort ;)

Now for combat, let's see the quick numbers, take into account that we crit on a 15 for x4 damage and another attack at the same bonus
Melee attack = 12BAB+1Weapon focus -4 twf +14 STR + enchant up to 9 for the main and only +1 for the second
Damage = 3d6+21STR+enchant

Leadership score   +21, Great renown, Fairness and generosity, special power, bought a house in the city
Great Renown, he's renowned as being the leader of the Scorpion Mob in a random metropolis
Fairness and Generosity, He doesn't care much for the loot that drops of his ennemy, his troop thought he was fair and generous because of it
Special power, Unlike his whole race he's not completely useless
Has a manor in a random metropolis , which is the base of operation for the Scorpion Mob

Special notes:
-Even when optimised his CR is only 7, which is a great deal if we want to add a truenamer cohort, the cohort will be able to do stuff unlike most of the times
-The FoP can give the marshal bonus to the charge which can be substancial, especially if we consider the stance for the crusader, just make sure to add shape soulmeld shedu crown and open least chackra crown
-It is clear that most of the time monstrous character are, at most, equivalent to a tier 5 class
-With his lvl 1 follower you can in fact make a mob from the DMG2, which is of a higher chalenge rating than a regular scorpionfolk


And down here is the reference for the Racial stuff
Scorpionfolk characters possess the following racial traits.

+8 Strength, +2 Dexterity, +2 Constitution, -2 Intelligence, +4 Wisdom. +4 Charisma.
Large size. -1 penalty to Armor Class, -1 penalty on attack rolls, -4 penalty on Hide checks, +4 bonus on grapple checks, lifting and carrying limits double those of Medium characters.
Space/Reach: 10 feet/5 feet.
A scorpionfolk’s base land speed is 40 feet.
Darkvision out to 60 feet.
Fire Resistance 5
Spell Resistance 18
Racial Hit Dice: A scorpionfolk begins with twelve levels of monstrous humanoid, which provide 12d8 Hit Dice, a base attack bonus of +12, and base saving throw bonuses of Fort +4, Ref +8, and Will +8.
Racial Skills: A scorpionfolk’s monstrous humanoid levels give it skill points equal to 15 × (2 + Int modifier). Its class skills are Diplomacy, Spot, Intimidate, Listen and Sense Motive
Racial Feats: A scorpion’s monstrous humanoid levels give it five feats.
+6 natural armor bonus.
Automatic Languages: Common, Terran. Bonus Languages: any.
Favored Class: Ranger.
Level adjustment +4.

Trample (Ex)
1d8+1.5str Reflex half DC 10+1/2HD+STR. The save DC is Strength-based.

Poison (Ex)
A scorpionfolk delivers its poison (Fortitude save DC 10+1/2HD+CON) with each successful sting attack. The initial and secondary damage is 1d4 points of Dexterity damage.

Spell-Like Abilities
1/day - major image; 2/day - mirror image, Caster level 10th; save DC 12 + spell level.
Title: Re: A Min/Max Challenge
Post by: Keldar on February 28, 2018, 03:18:26 AM
Lets give a Turkey Benchmark

Jive the stable boy
Human Commoner 16  32 PB, PC wealth 260,000
Base: Str 16 Dex 14 Con 16 Int/Wis/Cha 10
Modified: Str  26 (+4 level, +6 Ench ) Dex () Con 18 (+2 Ench)  Int () Wis() Cha 8 (-2 Pathetic)
BAB 8 F/R/W 5  HD 16d4+64 (Avg 104)  AC- Utterly irrelevant
Skill Handle Animal/Ride- 19 ranks each, Listen/Spot 9 each, Craft (Leatherworking) 1 rank
Feats:
H- Mounted Combat
Flaw - Ride By Attack (Murkey Eyed or Chicken Infested)
Flaw- Spirited Charge (Pathetic Charisma or Weresheep)
1- Power Attack (Can't use, but can take)
3- Weapon Proficiency -Lance
6-  Combat Reflexes (3 AoOs)
9- Improved Bull Rush
12- Shock Trooper
15- Meh.  Landlord for retirement

Gear:
32,300 +3 Valorous Lance
36,000 Girdle of Giant Strength +6
4,000 Amulet of Constitution +2
24,000 Minor Cloak of Displacement (20% miss)
3,000 Horseshoes of speed (30 Enh move)
50,000 Pheonix Cloak (Mic, for horse)
4,100 Armbands of Might
106,600 A herd of warhorses, potions of delay death and whatever.  Or custom bullshit items.

Charges every round for +21 to hit 1d8+33x4 (x5 on a crit)  with 10' reach  Avg 149.  Nontrivial combat ability on a half assed commoner.  And contributes for the first 15 levels too.  Rides a flying damn horse.
If you aren't better than Jive, you're a complete Turkey.
Title: Re: A Min/Max Challenge
Post by: popanas on February 28, 2018, 05:29:56 AM
I did mention it was an interesting option, not the most optimal option. It`s clear that the best option is a charger, especially with the 38 STR. The point is saying that even with racial hit dices and level adjust, you can do a good fighter. Doing a caster is a different story.