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Handbooks & Resources => Handbook Discussion => Topic started by: bhu on January 04, 2014, 02:13:03 AM

Title: Template Handbook Discussion
Post by: bhu on January 04, 2014, 02:13:03 AM
First item up for discussion: There are two templates from web enhancements that no longer appear to be available (Chosen of Deneir and Jordain-Born).  Are they worth tracking down and if so does anyone know where they are?

http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=12219.0 Handbook is here
Title: Re: Template Handbook Discussion
Post by: PsyBomb on January 04, 2014, 10:18:52 AM
How detailed do you plan on making this guide, eventually? You already have a TON of reference material here and a lot of work was represented... but are you going to, say, add the LAs for playable ones? Highlight particularly good ones? Any other information?

Either way, it's going to be a huge project
Title: Re: Template Handbook Discussion
Post by: Mithril Leaf on January 04, 2014, 11:46:26 AM
Are you including the various 2nd party books? Athas, Planescape, Dragonlance, that sort of thing?
Title: Re: Template Handbook Discussion
Post by: FlaminCows on January 04, 2014, 02:48:46 PM
First item up for discussion: There are two templates from web enhancements that no longer appear to be available (Chosen of Deneir and Jordain-Born).  Are they worth tracking down and if so does anyone know where they are?

I've tracked down both templates. They are on ww2.wizards.com, which can be found with Google but is labelled as "untrusted" because WotC doesn't have certificates for them.

They can be found here (https://ww2.wizards.com/books/mirrorstone/Article.aspx?doc=fr_deneir) and here (https://ww2.wizards.com/books/mirrorstone/Article.aspx?doc=fr_jordain). Google has a cache of them, too: Chosen of Deneir (http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:Ao3NL83HCQcJ:https://ww2.wizards.com/books/mirrorstone/Article.aspx%3Fdoc%3Dfr_deneir+&cd=2&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=ca&client=firefox-a) and Jordain-Born (http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:foNFGEvcBQ0J:https://ww2.wizards.com/books/mirrorstone/Article.aspx%3Fdoc%3Dfr_jordain+&cd=2&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=ca&client=firefox-a).
Title: Re: Template Handbook Discussion
Post by: bhu on January 04, 2014, 03:50:32 PM
How detailed do you plan on making this guide, eventually? You already have a TON of reference material here and a lot of work was represented... but are you going to, say, add the LAs for playable ones? Highlight particularly good ones? Any other information?

Either way, it's going to be a huge project

One of the other purposes of this thread is to see what people want in a template handbook after i get the master lists done  :D

I definitely intend to have templates listed by Type change (as in I'm an x and I wish to become an x), addition or loss of subtypes, changes in CR/LA, plus whatever people want most.
Title: Re: Template Handbook Discussion
Post by: bhu on January 04, 2014, 03:52:13 PM
Are you including the various 2nd party books? Athas, Planescape, Dragonlance, that sort of thing?

Depends on whether or not I can gain access to them and if people want them.  Hesitantly I'd like to say yes but I need to find a list of the books out there so I can do research.

SO if people want them do please sound off now  :D
Title: Re: Template Handbook Discussion
Post by: bhu on January 04, 2014, 03:52:59 PM
First item up for discussion: There are two templates from web enhancements that no longer appear to be available (Chosen of Deneir and Jordain-Born).  Are they worth tracking down and if so does anyone know where they are?

I've tracked down both templates. They are on ww2.wizards.com, which can be found with Google but is labelled as "untrusted" because WotC doesn't have certificates for them.

They can be found here (https://ww2.wizards.com/books/mirrorstone/Article.aspx?doc=fr_deneir) and here (https://ww2.wizards.com/books/mirrorstone/Article.aspx?doc=fr_jordain). Google has a cache of them, too: Chosen of Deneir (http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:Ao3NL83HCQcJ:https://ww2.wizards.com/books/mirrorstone/Article.aspx%3Fdoc%3Dfr_deneir+&cd=2&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=ca&client=firefox-a) and Jordain-Born (http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:foNFGEvcBQ0J:https://ww2.wizards.com/books/mirrorstone/Article.aspx%3Fdoc%3Dfr_jordain+&cd=2&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=ca&client=firefox-a).


 :hug

I shall list them then.  I didn't before because of the untrusted thing.
Title: Re: Template Handbook Discussion
Post by: FireInTheSky on January 04, 2014, 08:29:27 PM
I think the info you proposed on the previous thread was pretty good. So a possible table (or set of tables, if necessary) could look something like this:

TemplateSourceOld TypeNew TypeSubtypeLACRSizeStat ChangesGrants SLAsOther Prereqs
DuhDuhType prereqWhat you becomeGained, if anyDuhDuhChange, if anyIf anyY/NIf any

And it would be sortable, so you could sort by New Type, or by LA, or whatever. How does that look?
Title: Re: Template Handbook Discussion
Post by: bhu on January 04, 2014, 09:12:48 PM
Is the proposed table enough or are there additional bits of info people would like to see?
Title: Re: Template Handbook Discussion
Post by: FlaminCows on January 04, 2014, 09:29:19 PM
Tier information, maybe? Kind of like the old Tier List for Templates. Just a quick number code for everything from "this is overpowered nonsense" to "this is worth its LA" to "this is worth its LA only if buyoff is allowed" to "this isn't worth its LA" to "you should never take this if you want to live".

I think what most people use the handbooks here for is to make a PC quickly, and knowing which templates are worth writing on your character sheet would be the most useful information possible. A list of all templates would be handy, but a list of PC-worthy templates would be even handier.
Title: Re: Template Handbook Discussion
Post by: FireInTheSky on January 04, 2014, 09:41:36 PM
Tier information, maybe? Kind of like the old Tier List for Templates. Just a quick number code for everything from "this is overpowered nonsense" to "this is worth its LA" to "this is worth its LA only if buyoff is allowed" to "this isn't worth its LA" to "you should never take this if you want to live".

I think what most people use the handbooks here for is to make a PC quickly, and knowing which templates are worth writing on your character sheet would be the most useful information possible. A list of all templates would be handy, but a list of PC-worthy templates would be even handier.
It's easy enough to do the usual 4 color scheme (red/black/blue/green) to denote terrible/blah/good/broken. Though you wouldn't be able to sort on that.
Title: Re: Template Handbook Discussion
Post by: snakeman830 on January 04, 2014, 11:18:28 PM
That tier list didn't get that far, but I do feel something similar should be implemented in the handbook.
Title: Re: Template Handbook Discussion
Post by: bhu on January 04, 2014, 11:26:57 PM
Tier information, maybe? Kind of like the old Tier List for Templates. Just a quick number code for everything from "this is overpowered nonsense" to "this is worth its LA" to "this is worth its LA only if buyoff is allowed" to "this isn't worth its LA" to "you should never take this if you want to live".

I think what most people use the handbooks here for is to make a PC quickly, and knowing which templates are worth writing on your character sheet would be the most useful information possible. A list of all templates would be handy, but a list of PC-worthy templates would be even handier.
It's easy enough to do the usual 4 color scheme (red/black/blue/green) to denote terrible/blah/good/broken. Though you wouldn't be able to sort on that.

Maybe if we did a table for each color?

Also: If I'm making suggestions for taking PC templates wouldn't I need to do it by class? 
Title: Re: Template Handbook Discussion
Post by: FireInTheSky on January 04, 2014, 11:41:30 PM
Tier information, maybe? Kind of like the old Tier List for Templates. Just a quick number code for everything from "this is overpowered nonsense" to "this is worth its LA" to "this is worth its LA only if buyoff is allowed" to "this isn't worth its LA" to "you should never take this if you want to live".

I think what most people use the handbooks here for is to make a PC quickly, and knowing which templates are worth writing on your character sheet would be the most useful information possible. A list of all templates would be handy, but a list of PC-worthy templates would be even handier.
It's easy enough to do the usual 4 color scheme (red/black/blue/green) to denote terrible/blah/good/broken. Though you wouldn't be able to sort on that.

Maybe if we did a table for each color?

Also: If I'm making suggestions for taking PC templates wouldn't I need to do it by class?

Yeeeah, maybe leave the stratification out of the table, and just do a set of posts that have lists of templates that mesh well with the core+ base classes. "If you're a Barbarian, think about these," "If you're a Rogue, think about these," "If you're a Wizard, think about these."

And maybe even a list of "NEVER USE THESE UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES!!!" :P
Title: Re: Template Handbook Discussion
Post by: FlaminCows on January 04, 2014, 11:46:32 PM
Also: If I'm making suggestions for taking PC templates wouldn't I need to do it by class?

I don't think that would be necessary. Usually it is pretty obvious what kind of class a template synergies with, especially if it gives ability score modifiers. Maybe a single line that goes something like "Suggested class: Warlock" (for example). Subdividing it by class would just make it more confusing. A lot of templates work well with more than one class, and some of the class handbooks include a template section anyway.
Title: Re: Template Handbook Discussion
Post by: FireInTheSky on January 05, 2014, 12:22:48 AM
Maybe a single line that goes something like "Suggested class: Warlock" (for example).
That doesn't really solve the problem of stratification.
Title: Re: Template Handbook Discussion
Post by: Gazzien on January 05, 2014, 03:09:14 AM
Your Abomination Dragonspawn, in the parenthetical, says "Draonspawn". //nitpick
Title: Re: Template Handbook Discussion
Post by: PsyBomb on January 05, 2014, 11:20:59 AM
The problem with rating templates is that some will be better than others for various things, and it is VERY difficult to denote these things without tripling the size of the table. Bare minimum would require three columns with a 1-5 rating in each: one for Melee, Caster, and Skilled.
Title: Re: Template Handbook Discussion
Post by: FlaminCows on January 05, 2014, 12:21:17 PM
The problem with rating templates is that some will be better than others for various things, and it is VERY difficult to denote these things without tripling the size of the table. Bare minimum would require three columns with a 1-5 rating in each: one for Melee, Caster, and Skilled.

Not necessarily. You could just rate it by how useful it is for builds that use it well. Just look at the tier lists for classes as an example: Warblade is not an effective Skilled character or Caster, but it is still a solid tier 3 class. You don't need a Tier List for Melee Combatants, Tier List for Casters and Tier List for Skilled Characters because it is clear at a glance what kind of character a certain class is. I think templates are the same in this respect. A 1-5 rating in three columns would still be better since it gives more information when looking at the chart (allowing people who are looking for a certain kind of template to narrow it down sooner) but it isn't the bare minimum for tier info to be useful.
Title: Re: Template Handbook Discussion
Post by: FireInTheSky on January 05, 2014, 12:58:11 PM
(click to show/hide)

(click to show/hide)

TemplateSourceOld TypeNew TypeSubtypeLACRSizeStat ChangesSLAs?ALOther PrereqsOther
Abomination DragonspawnBoK p26H, MHMH(as creator)+10--4 Int, -4 Wis--Dragonspawn TemplateRoll for Mutation Benefits
Acidborn MonsterDung p111An, MB, P, V-/MB(augmented)-+1-+4 Con--Living, corporeal, [aquatic]
Air Element CreatureMoP p191Ab, An, MB, P, VEAir-Var-+6 Dex-Usually NCorporeal3.0 Material
Anarchic CreatureMoP p198Special-Chaotic-Var---Always CCorporeal, native to the Material plane3.0 Material
Ankholian UndeadBoK p121U--+3+2-+4 Str/Cha-Any ECorporeal
Axiomatic CreatureMoP p197Special-Lawful-Var---Always LCorporeal, native to the Material plane3.0 Material
BloodragerBoK p78An, MB, VMB-+2Var-+4 Str/Con, -2 Wis-Always E-
Child of the SeaBoK p40HFAquatic+2+1-+2 Con, -2 ChaY-Non-aquatic
Cold Element CreatureMoP p195Ab, An, MB, P, VECold-Var---Usually NCorporeal3.0 Material
Dark Thrall of OnysabletBoK p80Special--+3+2-+2 Str/Dex/Con-Always CEMale human/elf/ogre
Death Knight of KrynnDCS p212HU-+5Var-+4 Str, +2 Wis/ChaYAlways E6+ HD
Dragon VassalBoK p29G, H, MHMH(elemental)+2+1-+8 Str, +4 Dex, +6 Con---
DragonspawnDCS p222H, MHMH(as creator)VarVar-Var--Corporeal, between small & largeCast as 1st level Sorcerer
Dungeonbred MonsterDung p112Ab, An, MB, V---0-1+4 Str/Con--Living, corporeal, large+
Earth Element CreatureMoP p192Ab, An, MB, P, VEEarth-Var-+2 Str, -2 Dex-Usually NCorporeal3.0 Material
Fire Element CreatureMoP p193Ab, An, MB, P, VEFire-Var---Usually NCorporeal3.0 Material
ForestmasterBoK p83MB, An--0+3-+2 Str/Con, +4 Int/Wis/ChaYAlways NIf animal, awakenedCast as a Druid of your HD
Guardian MonsterDung p113Ab, An, MB, V-/MB(augmented)-+1-+4 Wis, -2 Cha--Living, corporeal, Int 3-
Gurik Cha'ahlBoK p46Special--+1+1-+4 Str, +2 Con, -2 Cha--Goblinoid Subtype
Half-ElementalMoP p188AnyOu--+2-VarY-Corporeal, Int 4+3.0 Material
Hivenest MonsterDung p115C, P, U, V---Var----Special
PetitionerMoP p199AnyOu--+1-----3.0 Material
Proto-CreatureBoK p89Ab, D, G, H, MB, MH, Oz, U--0Var+2/+1/0+4 Str, +2 Con, -2 Int, -4 Cha-One step towards CCorporeal
Pseudonatural CreatureMoP p212AnyOu--Var----Corporeal3.0 Material
Sacred GuardianBoK p92C-Augmented, (aligned)0+2-+4 Str/Dex/Wis/Cha--Non-intelligent
Sea DragonspawnBoK p29H, MHMH(as creator)+2+2-+6 Str, +4 Con/Cha, +2 Wis--Corporeal, between small & largeCast as 1st level Sorcerer
Sentry OozeDung p114Oz---+2-+6 Dex, +2 Int, +1 Wis/Cha--Living, corporeal, no Int
Shadow CreatureMoP p190AnyMB--+1----Corporeal3.0 Material
Skeletal WarriorDCS p229HU--+1-+2 Str-Always NE3+ HD
SkorenoiBoK p96F, H, MHMHChaoticVarVar-+4 Str, +2 Dex/Con-Always CECorporeal, possess bestial traits
Spectral MinionDCS p230G, H, MHUIncorporeal-+1-+4 Dex---
Tainted-BloodBoK p98Ab, F, G, H, MHMH-+1Var-+2 Str, +4 Con-Always CE-
Water Element CreatureMoP p194Ab, An, MB, P, VEWater-Var---Usually NCorporeal3.0 Material
WichtlinBoK p132SpecialUAugmented+4+2-+4 Dex/Cha, -4 IntYAlways NEElf/Half-elf/Animal Companion
Wood Element CreatureMoP p196Ab, An, MB, VP--Var---Usually NCorporeal3.0 Material



How does this look?

EDIT: I think the SLAs stuff should come out, since it doesn't really tell you anything. This table should really be essential information only, and, IMO, just saying "this template gives you 1 or more SLAs, but you'll have to look to find out which and how many and how many times per day and at what caster level" is so generic as to be pretty much useless. I mean, what are you supposed to do with that information? And taking out that column will help a bit with the clutter.
Title: Re: Template Handbook Discussion
Post by: awaken_D_M_golem on January 05, 2014, 02:45:40 PM
Historically, there've been LA+0 , LA+1 , and LA+2 listings.
Probably because of the basic playableness.

Oh heck, I'm just whining.  Great stuff so far.
Title: Re: Template Handbook Discussion
Post by: bhu on January 05, 2014, 05:37:49 PM
I added the SLA/casting thingie because asking what templates provide them seem to be popular questions.
Title: Re: Template Handbook Discussion
Post by: bhu on January 06, 2014, 02:28:26 AM
Oh and I like where you're going with the template for te moment fire.  Let me collate all the necessary data in the main thread and then we can table it.  I'm finding lots of mistakes I made as I go along
Title: Re: Template Handbook Discussion
Post by: FireInTheSky on January 06, 2014, 07:11:50 AM
I added the SLA/casting thingie because asking what templates provide them seem to be popular questions.
I agree that that's a popular question. But I'm just not sure what people are actually getting out of a generic "yes," rather than a more specific "this template gives you X and Y and Z." Can anyone clarify this for me?

Oh and I like where you're going with the template for te moment fire.  Let me collate all the necessary data in the main thread and then we can table it.  I'm finding lots of mistakes I made as I go along
Cool. I'll keep working on it then. I'm just working off of the master list you posted, and checking the sources myself. (I don't have all of the books, but we'll cross that bridge when we come to it.)

Question: For "stat changes," instead of giving the actual changes in a format like I currently have in the table, do you think it would be more useful to break it into 6 different columns, and just put in a "+" or "-"? It gets a little less specific, but much more useful for sorting.

Title: Re: Template Handbook Discussion
Post by: sjTaylor on January 06, 2014, 01:15:24 PM
I haven't read the other posts in the discussion thread, but I thought I'd let you know that your link to the Resteless Prey Creature Template doesn't work.

This should get you there though:
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fw/20030531a

Yours is:
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fw/20030531a0

I think it just has a '0' tacked onto the end by mistake.
Title: Re: Template Handbook Discussion
Post by: bhu on January 06, 2014, 05:46:17 PM
Thanks sj  :D

Fire: mebbe we can do some polling on the casting/stats thingie?
Title: Re: Template Handbook Discussion
Post by: bhu on January 06, 2014, 08:15:21 PM
Second option: Maybe divide it into two tables, one for stuff that most temlates would have, and another for templates that have odd stuff like the casting/SLA's
Title: Re: Template Handbook Discussion
Post by: FireInTheSky on January 06, 2014, 09:35:35 PM
Second option: Maybe divide it into two tables, one for stuff that most temlates would have, and another for templates that have odd stuff like the casting/SLA's
Certainly one way to go. What do you think about this split:

Both get Template Name and Source, of course.

1st table:
*Old Type
*New Type
*Subtype
*Stats (6 individual columns with +/-/[blank] instead of actual numbers)
*LA
*CR
*Other Prereqs

2nd table:
*Size
*Alignment
*SLAs
*Notes/Other

For 3.0 Material, maybe we do a gray highlight of the entire line? (Also, we could potentially put a column into the first table saying "see 2nd table," and then we could leave ones out of the second table that didn't have any of those categories...)

I'd love to be able to do the same thing to Old Type that I want to do with the stats, but there's no way there's enough room for that.
Title: Re: Template Handbook Discussion
Post by: bhu on January 06, 2014, 10:36:15 PM
Sounds good so far.  Anyone have anything to add?
Title: Re: Template Handbook Discussion
Post by: FireInTheSky on January 07, 2014, 01:21:37 AM
(click to show/hide)


TemplateSourceOld TypeNew TypeSubtypeLACROther PrereqsStrDexConIntWisCha
Abomination DragonspawnBoK p26H, MHMH(as creator)+10Dragonspawn Template-4-4
Acidborn MonsterDung p111An, MB, P, V-/MB(augmented)-+1Living, corporeal, [aquatic]+4
Air Element CreatureMoP p191Ab, An, MB, P, VEAir-VarCorporeal+6
Anarchic CreatureMoP p198Special-Chaotic-VarCorporeal, native to the Material plane
Ankholian UndeadBoK p121U--+3+2Corporeal+4+4
Axiomatic CreatureMoP p197Special-Lawful-VarCorporeal, native to the Material plane
BloodragerBoK p78An, MB, VMB-+2Var-+4+4-2
Child of the SeaBoK p40HFAquatic+2+1Non-aquatic+2-2
Cold Element CreatureMoP p195Ab, An, MB, P, VECold-VarCorporeal
Dark Thrall of OnysabletBoK p80Special--+3+2Male human/elf/ogre+2+2+2
Death Knight of KrynnDCS p212HU-+5Var6+ HD+4+2+2
Dragon VassalBoK p29G, H, MHMH(elemental)+2+1-+8+4+6
DragonspawnDCS p222H, MHMH(as creator)VarVarCorporeal, between small & large??????
Dungeonbred MonsterDung p112Ab, An, MB, V---0Living, corporeal, large++4+4
Earth Element CreatureMoP p192Ab, An, MB, P, VEEarth-VarCorporeal+2-2
Fire Element CreatureMoP p193Ab, An, MB, P, VEFire-VarCorporeal
ForestmasterBoK p83MB, An--0+3If animal, awakened+2+2+4+4+4
Guardian MonsterDung p113Ab, An, MB, V-/MB(augmented)-+1Living, corporeal, Int 3-+4-2
Gurik Cha'ahlBoK p46Special--+1+1Goblinoid Subtype+4+2-2
Half-ElementalMoP p188AnyOu--+2Corporeal, Int 4+??????
Hivenest MonsterDung p115C, P, U, V---VarSpecial
PetitionerMoP p199AnyOu--+1-
Proto-CreatureBoK p89Ab, D, G, H, MB, MH, Oz, U--0VarCorporeal+4+2-2-4
Pseudonatural CreatureMoP p212AnyOu--VarCorporeal
Sacred GuardianBoK p92C-Augmented, (aligned)0+2Non-intelligent+4+4+4+4
Sea DragonspawnBoK p29H, MHMH(as creator)+2+2Corporeal, between small & large+6+4+2+4
Sentry OozeDung p114Oz---+2Living, corporeal, no Int+6+2+1+1
Shadow CreatureMoP p190AnyMB--+1Corporeal
Skeletal WarriorDCS p229HU--+13+ HD+2
SkorenoiBoK p96F, H, MHMHChaoticVarVarCorporeal, possess bestial traits+4+2+2
Spectral MinionDCS p230G, H, MHUIncorporeal-+1-+4
Tainted-BloodBoK p98Ab, F, G, H, MHMH-+1Var-+2+4
Water Element CreatureMoP p194Ab, An, MB, P, VEWater-VarCorporeal
WichtlinBoK p132SpecialUAugmented+4+2Elf/Half-elf/Animal Companion+4-4+4
Wood Element CreatureMoP p196Ab, An, MB, VP--VarCorporeal

TemplateSourceSLAs?ALSizeOther
Abomination DragonspawnBoK p26---Roll for Mutation Benefits
Acidborn MonsterDung p111---
Air Element CreatureMoP p191-Usually N-3.0 Material
Anarchic CreatureMoP p198-Always C-3.0 Material
Ankholian UndeadBoK p121-Any E-
Axiomatic CreatureMoP p197-Always L-3.0 Material
BloodragerBoK p78-Always E-
Child of the SeaBoK p40Y--
Cold Element CreatureMoP p195-Usually N-3.0 Material
Dark Thrall of OnysabletBoK p80-Always CE-
Death Knight of KrynnDCS p212YAlways E-
Dragon VassalBoK p29---
DragonspawnDCS p222---Cast as 1st level Sorcerer
Dungeonbred MonsterDung p112---1
Earth Element CreatureMoP p192-Usually N-3.0 Material
Fire Element CreatureMoP p193-Usually N-3.0 Material
ForestmasterBoK p83YAlways N-Cast as a Druid of your HD
Guardian MonsterDung p113---
Gurik Cha'ahlBoK p46---
Half-ElementalMoP p188Y--3.0 Material
Hivenest MonsterDung p115---
PetitionerMoP p199---3.0 Material
Proto-CreatureBoK p89-One step towards C+2/+1/0
Pseudonatural CreatureMoP p212---3.0 Material
Sacred GuardianBoK p92---
Sea DragonspawnBoK p29---Cast as 1st level Sorcerer
Sentry OozeDung p114---
Shadow CreatureMoP p190---3.0 Material
Skeletal WarriorDCS p229-Always NE-
SkorenoiBoK p96-Always CE-
Spectral MinionDCS p230---
Tainted-BloodBoK p98-Always CE-
Water Element CreatureMoP p194-Usually N-3.0 Material
WichtlinBoK p132YAlways NE-
Wood Element CreatureMoP p196-Usually N-3.0 Material
Title: Re: Template Handbook Discussion
Post by: bhu on January 08, 2014, 11:22:31 PM
I'm managing to edit in 3-4 books a day.  Man this is gonna be a while...
Title: Re: Template Handbook Discussion
Post by: FireInTheSky on January 09, 2014, 01:12:07 AM
Should I continue with the tables as-is(/are)? If you want me to add something, I'd like to do it now, so as to minimize the number of templates I have to look at multiple times.
Title: Re: Template Handbook Discussion
Post by: bhu on January 09, 2014, 02:35:35 PM
You're good.  The only thing I would mention is beware templates with multiple sources as I'll be using the newest one. 

If there are templates with different abilities but similar names (Half-Ogre comes to mind) I'll list both.
Title: Re: Template Handbook Discussion
Post by: Mithril Leaf on January 11, 2014, 02:53:15 AM
Several of the BoK templates were updated and made unplayable, the one that I caught first was Forestmaster.
Title: Re: Template Handbook Discussion
Post by: bhu on January 11, 2014, 03:41:41 AM
Where were they updated at?
Title: Re: Template Handbook Discussion
Post by: bhu on January 11, 2014, 04:30:41 AM
How many variations on the Pseudonatural Template are there?  I notice the one from Epic is a helluva lot nastier than the one from complete arcane...
Title: Re: Template Handbook Discussion
Post by: snakeman830 on January 12, 2014, 04:54:13 PM
How many variations on the Pseudonatural Template are there?  I notice the one from Epic is a helluva lot nastier than the one from complete arcane...
Pretty sure those two are it.  While they are related, I think that they are supposed to be two different templates.  Lords of Madness reprinted the Complete Arcane version.
Title: Re: Template Handbook Discussion
Post by: Mithril Leaf on January 12, 2014, 11:36:11 PM
Where were they updated at?

Bestiary of Krynn Revised. Page number is in the list.

EDIT: It's forestmaster and sacred guardian.
Title: Re: Template Handbook Discussion
Post by: bhu on January 13, 2014, 12:25:22 AM
Well the handbook will be for DM's too.  So I'll still be listing templates that won't be taken by players.  After all I can't see anyone ever taking Petitioner yet I still have it.
Title: Re: Template Handbook Discussion
Post by: bhu on January 20, 2014, 02:16:49 AM
Sorry it's taking so long guys.  There's a lotta stuff to go through.

Also it appears I may be getting sued by the state of ohio...I'm hoping I can work something out without losing all my stuff.
Title: Re: Template Handbook Discussion
Post by: FireInTheSky on January 20, 2014, 06:42:32 AM
Also it appears I may be getting sued by the state of ohio...I'm hoping I can work something out without losing all my stuff.
:bigeyes :hug

Sorry it's taking so long guys.  There's a lotta stuff to go through.
I've also been slacking on my offer of help. Hopefully I'll get a chance to work on that table some more soon.
Title: Re: Template Handbook Discussion
Post by: bhu on January 20, 2014, 02:30:48 PM
I figured you were waiting on me since you didn't have all the books  :D

I've almost got the major books done (phew)!

Then it's a quick slog through the magazines and web content before asking people if there's other stuff they want included (Athas, Ravenloft, etc).
Title: Re: Template Handbook Discussion
Post by: Mithril Leaf on January 21, 2014, 01:00:41 AM
I figured you were waiting on me since you didn't have all the books  :D

I've almost got the major books done (phew)!

Then it's a quick slog through the magazines and web content before asking people if there's other stuff they want included (Athas, Ravenloft, etc).

I would love both of those for what it's worth. Maybe not KoK though. Maybe.
Title: Re: Template Handbook Discussion
Post by: bhu on January 21, 2014, 02:27:52 AM
Does anyone perchance have lists of the appropriate books??
Title: Re: Template Handbook Discussion
Post by: Mithril Leaf on January 21, 2014, 11:06:39 PM
Does anyone perchance have lists of the appropriate books??

I'm fairly sure Plzbreakmycampaign has a list of all books and their officiality ranking.
Title: Re: Template Handbook Discussion
Post by: bhu on January 22, 2014, 12:57:41 AM
linky?
Title: Re: Template Handbook Discussion
Post by: bhu on January 26, 2014, 02:58:18 AM
Okay, the books and the web enhancements are done.  All thats left are the magazines and any requests for other material.

I tried to peek at Planeswalker to see their stuff but its down.


I peeked at some of athas.org's material and it was...kinda iffy...
Title: Re: Template Handbook Discussion
Post by: PlzBreakMyCampaign on January 26, 2014, 09:03:24 PM
Btw this is nice bhu. I'm not going to read the discussion though. Reposted by request:

(click to show/hide)

Btw I did some digging on KoK and besides the fact that WotC never wanted to license it, they really showed bad form by making 3.5 last longer than it. If you want to get out your tin foil hats, it appears 3.5e's demise was long since planned to work out this way too. But hey, atleast we dodged the irresistable spell metamagic bullet.
Title: Re: Template Handbook Discussion
Post by: bhu on January 27, 2014, 03:17:41 AM
Thanks!

Do you also have a link to the LA:-- to LA:x thread you mentioned elsewhere?

Looking through your post it would appear the only licensed or official material I havent peeked at is ravenloft and kingdoms of kalamar.  Athas.org and Planeswalker are basically homebrew.

maybe I'll do a poll and see what people want most.

I have to say there are some startlingly big gaps in templates.  Certain Types get all the attention.

And OMG the piss poor writing for some of it...especially the official stuff...
Title: Re: Template Handbook Discussion
Post by: bhu on January 30, 2014, 02:12:50 AM
Things proceed slow but sure.  Of the current stuff listed, Dragon Magazine is now all that's left.
Title: Re: Template Handbook Discussion
Post by: bhu on February 07, 2014, 01:08:55 AM
More than halfway through the Dragons.  I really do like the concept of Templates, but the more I look at them the more I think the average homebrewer does better in execution...
Title: Re: Template Handbook Discussion
Post by: bhu on February 08, 2014, 05:32:06 PM
The variant vampires in Libris Mortis are updated versions of the vampires from Dragon 348 arent they?
Title: Re: Template Handbook Discussion
Post by: FlaminCows on February 08, 2014, 05:51:29 PM
No. The only one that shares a name is Savage Vampire, and the one presented in Dragon is completely different from the one in Libris Mortis.

In Dragon 348: Savage Vampire, Shadow Vampire, Terror Vampire. Each is a full template with its own unique special abilities.
In Libris Mortis: Moonbane Vampire, Persuasive Vampire, Psychic Vampire, Savage Vampire, Swarmform Vampire. Sort of like ACFs for templates, swapping out one ability for another.

Also, Dragon 348 was published two years after Libris Mortis.
Title: Re: Template Handbook Discussion
Post by: bhu on February 08, 2014, 06:07:39 PM
Excellent! As soon as I add those vampires I am finished adding the official materials!

Which means its time to put up that poll.
http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=12523.0
Title: Re: Template Handbook Discussion
Post by: PlzBreakMyCampaign on February 09, 2014, 01:26:18 AM
As requested:

http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=10815.0

Also its hard to 'use' this list. I find myself cross-referencing LA numbers constantly. It really slows things down. And what SQ are gained is rather absent...
Title: Re: Template Handbook Discussion
Post by: bhu on February 09, 2014, 04:09:43 AM
You certainly have my sympathies taking on that list.  I never realized before this how much of a mess the templates were
Title: Re: Template Handbook Discussion
Post by: awaken_D_M_golem on February 09, 2014, 02:37:50 PM
We need to clone PLZ and diplomance him to do more work like that.
 :embarrassed
Title: Re: Template Handbook Discussion
Post by: bhu on February 09, 2014, 10:54:50 PM
Okay if anyone is a fan of White Wolfs Ravenloft or Athas.Org I have in theory added all their templates to the master lists on page one of the handbook thread.  If there are any books/pdfs missing do please speak up.
Title: Re: Template Handbook Discussion
Post by: bhu on February 13, 2014, 02:09:52 AM
I have requests for Planewalker.com, is anyone familiar with them?

I found a few element creature templates, a half-fey variant, and some Planetouched, but their site displays a little wonky.  Is that all they have for templates?
Title: Re: Template Handbook Discussion
Post by: Mithril Leaf on February 13, 2014, 07:20:39 AM
I have requests for Planewalker.com, is anyone familiar with them?

I found a few element creature templates, a half-fey variant, and some Planetouched, but their site displays a little wonky.  Is that all they have for templates?

I'm not sure that they have any real templates in their downloadable books, my search feature isn't finding anything. Would you like a copy of my combined chapters for easy searching?
Title: Re: Template Handbook Discussion
Post by: bhu on February 13, 2014, 06:37:01 PM
If you know of anything you can help do please send :D
Title: Re: Template Handbook Discussion
Post by: Mithril Leaf on February 14, 2014, 02:54:34 AM
http://www.uploadmb.com/dw.php?id=1392364434 (http://www.uploadmb.com/dw.php?id=1392364434)
Title: Re: Template Handbook Discussion
Post by: bhu on February 15, 2014, 01:55:33 AM
Thanks!! Going thru it now!

Edit: Okay they do not appear to have a monster section.  I guess Ill try to see if they've collected the website material into some sort of critter compendium...
Title: Re: Template Handbook Discussion
Post by: bhu on February 15, 2014, 06:29:10 PM
I have a PM out to Planewalker, and am awaiting response.
Title: Re: Template Handbook Discussion
Post by: bhu on February 18, 2014, 02:48:42 AM
Planewalker doesnt appear to pop online on fb much, so I added what I could find to the list.  Anyone notice stuff Im missing before I continue on?
Title: Re: Template Handbook Discussion
Post by: bhu on February 21, 2014, 02:53:09 AM
Okay Ive started Denizens of Dread and some of these are just unusable.  Boneless for example says CR is "3+ depending on Hit Dice" and nothing else.   Anyone know if there's errata?  Cause the book really needs it.
Title: Re: Template Handbook Discussion
Post by: awaken_D_M_golem on February 21, 2014, 04:14:16 PM
Poring over this for useful cheese  :flutter


I wanna go
Dragon --> add template X --> add template Y --> Humanoid or Animal that can bear live young
... because I haven't found one that can do it in one step like
Dragon --> add template X --> Humanoid or Animal.
Title: Re: Template Handbook Discussion
Post by: FlaminCows on February 21, 2014, 07:11:48 PM
I have found Ravenloft's errata (http://www.fraternityofshadows.com/TheVault/RL_Errata.html).
Title: Re: Template Handbook Discussion
Post by: bhu on February 22, 2014, 02:34:33 AM
Poring over this for useful cheese  :flutter


I wanna go
Dragon --> add template X --> add template Y --> Humanoid or Animal that can bear live young
... because I haven't found one that can do it in one step like
Dragon --> add template X --> Humanoid or Animal.


There are no templates that change your Type to Animal in official material.  The only Template that changes you to Humanoid is Incarnate Construct, and you have to be Medium or smaller and humanoid in form.  So your best bet would be " Base Medium or smaller Creature + Half-Dragon or Dragonspawn + Template making you a Construct (there arent many) + Living Construct.
Title: Re: Template Handbook Discussion
Post by: bhu on February 22, 2014, 02:36:07 AM
I have found Ravenloft's errata (http://www.fraternityofshadows.com/TheVault/RL_Errata.html).

 :hug
Title: Re: Template Handbook Discussion
Post by: FlaminCows on February 22, 2014, 03:00:09 PM
Yay hugs! And plusses! I feel all warm inside now.  :birthday
Title: Re: Template Handbook Discussion
Post by: bhu on March 01, 2014, 01:14:41 AM
I am still working on this and new ideas for it, and ask for some patience.  The results of my disability hearing are due and he possibility that i will likely be thrown to the wolves is fucking with me.
Title: Re: Template Handbook Discussion
Post by: PlzBreakMyCampaign on March 03, 2014, 01:33:43 PM
I understand how much work this is. Any word on getting this into tabular format? It will make the data suddenly very, very useful.
Title: Re: Template Handbook Discussion
Post by: bhu on March 03, 2014, 07:55:54 PM
Fire in the SKy can move forward with the ones he was doing if he wishes.  I'll be working more on tables once I get all the data collected in the current format.  The immediate problems have passed so I may have some free time shortly to just plow through it.
Title: Re: Template Handbook Discussion
Post by: bhu on March 06, 2014, 12:22:13 AM
One of the older Planewalker templates appears to have been left unfinished or gone unrevised by the one poster who did them all.   Should I include i, and if i did do you think they'd mind if i filled in the blanks?
Title: Re: Template Handbook Discussion
Post by: FlaminCows on March 06, 2014, 08:01:43 PM
Include it, but leave the blanks. Label the blanks as BLANK or something similar so it is clear that sic erat scriptum. That way anybody looking for it may find it, and be aware that it is unfinished and ready to make his own judgements as to what should be in the blanks.
Title: Re: Template Handbook Discussion
Post by: bhu on March 06, 2014, 08:50:56 PM
It's magma element creature.  It's obvious it'll add subtypes bu it doesn't mention which ones ( a lot of the elements only add one subtype or add new ones like Lightning, which are never explained).  It also only affects a few Creature Types, unlike the others which affect most Types.
Title: Re: Template Handbook Discussion
Post by: bhu on March 26, 2014, 02:21:06 AM
Goddamn you suck white wolf  :shakefist
Title: Re: Template Handbook Discussion
Post by: bhu on March 27, 2014, 06:30:36 PM
Okay but for deciding on the aforementioned Magma element template all the templates are listed, assuming i haven't missed anything or made mistakes (will be proofreading now).  Then progress can finally be mad eon doing other things.
Title: Re: Template Handbook Discussion
Post by: bhu on April 08, 2014, 03:47:37 AM
is there a way to give a construct the shapechanegr subtype?
Title: Re: Template Handbook Discussion
Post by: bhu on April 23, 2014, 06:24:47 PM
Any thoughts on how I should rate templates?  A lot of them are pretty lopsided.  As in "this is awesome if you're pursuing option x, but total shit otherwise".
Title: Re: Template Handbook Discussion
Post by: Stratovarius on April 23, 2014, 06:26:43 PM
Any thoughts on how I should rate templates?  A lot of them are pretty lopsided.  As in "this is awesome if you're pursuing option x, but total shit otherwise".

Rate them for what they're best at, it's what people are looking for. Just make sure to mention it in the review.
Title: Re: Template Handbook Discussion
Post by: bhu on May 01, 2014, 09:05:31 PM
I shall be adding spells that target specific Types to the "So You Want to be an X" posts.  They will be spells that specifically target that Type, don't work at all, have a different affect, or buff.  I'm about halfway through the list of 5000+ spells.
Title: Re: Template Handbook Discussion
Post by: bhu on May 16, 2014, 02:19:10 AM
Okay I think I have the spells that specifically target or work differently against creatures by Type listed.  There were about 5000 entries to skim, so I'm pretty sure I missed one here or there, so if anyone finds one I didn't mention let me know.
Title: Re: Template Handbook Discussion
Post by: bhu on May 30, 2014, 09:16:21 PM
Would you guys also like a list of Feats targeting Creatures by Type?
Title: Re: Template Handbook Discussion
Post by: bhu on June 04, 2014, 06:38:08 PM
Anyone out there??
Title: Re: Template Handbook Discussion
Post by: FlaminCows on June 04, 2014, 07:22:23 PM
Yes, I am here. I do not think I would get any use from a list of feats targeting creatures, but you can do it if you want to.
Title: Re: Template Handbook Discussion
Post by: Frogman55 on June 05, 2014, 04:33:19 PM
One of these days, when I'm feeling more motivated (which is a hint that it'd be awesome for someone else to do this), I want to put all of these into a sortable table.
Title: Re: Template Handbook Discussion
Post by: bhu on June 05, 2014, 08:56:37 PM
One of these days, when I'm feeling more motivated (which is a hint that it'd be awesome for someone else to do this), I want to put all of these into a sortable table.

The nature of some of the templates make tabling difficult.  It's why I've been putting it off.
Title: Re: Template Handbook Discussion
Post by: Stratovarius on June 09, 2014, 04:02:48 AM
If you've got Conjure Ice Beast, you probably also want Summon Desert Ally, which applies the Dustform template to all creatures it summons.
Title: Re: Template Handbook Discussion
Post by: bhu on June 09, 2014, 06:27:25 PM
Thanks!  Does anyone else know of something i missed?
Title: Re: Template Handbook Discussion
Post by: bhu on July 09, 2014, 02:07:52 AM
I swear if I lose another nights work too "Connection reset, could not find server" error I will do bad things...
Title: Re: Template Handbook Discussion
Post by: bhu on July 11, 2014, 10:40:26 PM
Okay recommendations for wis based Divine casters are up.  Those who feel I am in error please feel free to tell me so!  :D
Title: Re: Template Handbook Discussion
Post by: bhu on July 14, 2014, 09:47:11 PM
Man if you wanna have an LA _ or +0 template as a caster you gotta be evil or dead people it seems like...
Title: Re: Template Handbook Discussion
Post by: Jackinthegreen on July 26, 2014, 04:39:28 PM
You're missing Half-dragon from MM1 page 146.  It's applicable to any living, corporeal creature and changes the creature's type to Dragon.

Title: Re: Template Handbook Discussion
Post by: bhu on July 26, 2014, 04:50:48 PM
I just checked and it's there in the sourcebook section. 
Title: Re: Template Handbook Discussion
Post by: Jackinthegreen on July 26, 2014, 05:13:11 PM
How finished are you on the different types then?  Half-dragon isn't listed in the Humanoid post under "Changes type to Dragon" part.
Title: Re: Template Handbook Discussion
Post by: bhu on July 26, 2014, 06:07:38 PM
Ah I see the confusion.  Scroll down to "Templates for Any".  If it allowed itself to be applied to all or damn near all Types it's in there.
Title: Re: Template Handbook Discussion
Post by: Jackinthegreen on July 26, 2014, 08:24:05 PM
Ahh, gotcha.  Thanks for the clarification.  Perhaps noting that in the OP might alleviate some confusion on that?  "Instead of adding templates that work on any creature to each of the type lists, they're in their own separate list."
Title: Re: Template Handbook Discussion
Post by: bhu on July 27, 2014, 02:43:00 AM
I has fixeded
Title: Re: Template Handbook Discussion
Post by: bhu on July 30, 2014, 06:48:07 PM
Wizards nixed most of the 3.5 web content.  I've changed the links in the post in the main thread to google cache, but I'd hurry to swipe what you can, we've already lost Zombie.

I may end up having to remove them from the list if we can't link to it somewhere :(
Title: Re: Template Handbook Discussion
Post by: bhu on August 18, 2014, 02:56:38 AM
Okay I found the new address for everything (or used the wayback machine).  You can thank creature catalog for making the links easy to find, and linking me to 5 new templates: Ba'traa Creature, Disembodied Spirit, Frenzy Dog, Incorporeal Sentinel, and Vhaerath.  I am adding them now.
Title: Re: Template Handbook Discussion
Post by: Mithril Leaf on August 18, 2014, 10:10:24 AM
Quorbred are +2 LA.

EDIT: Also you can become an elemental for +0 LA as far as I know only by being an Aberration, Animal, Magical Beast, Plant, or Vermin, and then taking one of Elemental Creature Templates from Manual of the Planes. I personally like Beguilers because they let you be an Amphibious Acidborn creature for -2 Dex, +4 Con. You could add Arachnoid if gunning for Dex as well.

EDIT 2: Paragon does have LA specified in the Epic Level Handbook. It's +11. I think? Page 156.

EDIT 3: Monster of Legend has either +4 or +5 as specified in the Errata, and you have it listed as having no LA in the Wis Divine Caster section.

EDIT 4: Nether hound has LA: - so probably shouldn't be mentioned in your So You've Decided to Become section.
Title: Re: Template Handbook Discussion
Post by: bhu on August 18, 2014, 09:20:11 PM
Fixed Quorbred, found the errata for Monster of Legend and redid it.  I used the srd for doing the epic level templates, and it listed no LA for paragon.  I looked in the book, and it doesnt either.  Page 156 lists CR.

WIll address the other two concerns later tonight.
Title: Re: Template Handbook Discussion
Post by: Mithril Leaf on August 18, 2014, 09:25:24 PM
Fixed Quorbred, found the errata for Monster of Legend and redid it.  I used the srd for doing the epic level templates, and it listed no LA for paragon.  I looked in the book, and it doesnt either.  Page 156 lists CR.

WIll address the other two concerns later tonight.

It lists them by CR but displays their ECL, which is Hit Dice + Level Adjustment.
Title: Re: Template Handbook Discussion
Post by: bhu on August 19, 2014, 02:01:37 AM
Yes but that page is borked.  As an example in the Mercane entry it says it's ECL 7.  Looking at their entry a Mercane has a +7 LA, and 7 HD, which should put them at ECL 14.  It's not even fixed entirely in the errata, as critters have a fairly low or high ECL that seems entirely independent on what they can do (and Mercanes are still ECL 7).  Looking through threads people are claiming it 'should' be anywhere from +8 to +30, but I can't seem to find an official answer.


Quote
Also you can become an elemental for +0 LA as far as I know only by being an Aberration, Animal, Magical Beast, Plant, or Vermin, and then taking one of Elemental Creature Templates from Manual of the Planes.

Was there a template I listed that has a wrong LA you're specifically referencing?
Title: Re: Template Handbook Discussion
Post by: Mithril Leaf on August 19, 2014, 05:55:35 PM
Yes but that page is borked.  As an example in the Mercane entry it says it's ECL 7.  Looking at their entry a Mercane has a +7 LA, and 7 HD, which should put them at ECL 14.  It's not even fixed entirely in the errata, as critters have a fairly low or high ECL that seems entirely independent on what they can do (and Mercanes are still ECL 7).  Looking through threads people are claiming it 'should' be anywhere from +8 to +30, but I can't seem to find an official answer.


Quote
Also you can become an elemental for +0 LA as far as I know only by being an Aberration, Animal, Magical Beast, Plant, or Vermin, and then taking one of Elemental Creature Templates from Manual of the Planes.

Was there a template I listed that has a wrong LA you're specifically referencing?

Regardless of whatever the "official" LA of Paragon is, everyone can agree it isn't 0. That's the sort of thing that gives LA less templates stacking a worse name than is already has.

And I believe the template you're thinking of is Half-Elemental which was given LA in a Dragon Magazine, +3 if I recall correctly.
Title: Re: Template Handbook Discussion
Post by: bhu on August 19, 2014, 06:36:55 PM
I already have Half-ELementtal listed as +3.
Title: Re: Template Handbook Discussion
Post by: Mithril Leaf on August 19, 2014, 07:28:50 PM
I already have Half-ELementtal listed as +3.

I though you were thinking that one of my templates suggested was previously referred to as having no LA, which was changed. I was simply referring to your advice section for Arcane Casters saying that Demonically Fused Elemental is a good template if you can find a +0 LA way to make yourself an elemental. I'll try and explicitly point out any issues I see. Anything in boring paragraph format is usually just my assorted musings.
Title: Re: Template Handbook Discussion
Post by: bhu on August 19, 2014, 08:39:10 PM
Aaah, sorry for the misunderstanding. 
Title: Re: Template Handbook Discussion
Post by: Mithril Leaf on August 27, 2014, 02:24:59 PM
Sacred Guardian requires 0 Int.

Corrupted by the Abyss has LA to -, it shouldn't be listed in the recommended section for con based psuedocasters.

Ditto with Lost.
Title: Re: Template Handbook Discussion
Post by: bhu on November 11, 2014, 07:59:18 PM
And I'm finally back.  You guys want the 3.0 classes added to the "So You've Decide to Become a" posts?
Title: Re: Template Handbook Discussion
Post by: bhu on November 15, 2014, 02:00:53 PM
Free naked statuary for our first 4 repliers.   :D

lol
Title: Re: Template Handbook Discussion
Post by: awaken_D_M_golem on November 15, 2014, 02:19:41 PM
Yes the "Lost" template is " - " , but it's so easy to get to do it.


What do I win ?
Title: Re: Template Handbook Discussion
Post by: bhu on November 15, 2014, 06:21:14 PM
You get to vote on the next pope  :D

Assuming you can bullshit your way through the process once we smuggle you in...

Oh and one of those marble statues of incredibly cut athletes who are hung like babies.
Title: Re: Template Handbook Discussion
Post by: unseenmage on December 04, 2014, 11:18:08 AM
Just wanted to drop by and say a great big THANK YOU for providing these lists. Have been exceedingly helpful in my endeavor to build a set of random d% charts with every playable creature on them by ECL.

That the Web content, Dragon mag, AND Dungeon mag content is listed is fantastic. Kudos.


If you're interested here's the current Entomanthrope WotC link: http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20040621a


Dragon 343 also has the Arcane Dragon listing which, though it isn't completely formatted like a regular template, it does have the line, "Arcane dragons possess all of the standard true dragon traits (see page 68 of the Monster Manual), plus they gain the following special qualities:", which to my mind removes the need for the text to provide many of the standard elements found in other template listings.
From there it follows standard (well for the article) template formula and considering that it already states the rest of the statistics I'd consider it a template. A +0 LA Template even.


Also, not sure if this is super helpful to you for this particular endeavor but it is relevant at least. Using the spell Greater Humanoid Essence (RoE) to make a Construct into a Humanoid lets you apply other spells that change the Construct's type and/or abilities.

The neat thing is that even after the Greater Humanoid Essence spell wears off the changes caused by the other spell(s) (eg. Mineral Warrior, Telepathic Bond) persist even though the Construct would normally not benefit from them due to type restrictions.
This shows that a creature's type changing due to a spell doesn't cause other spells affecting based on its type to cease functioning. If that were the case then Greater Humanoid Essence would cease functioning itself as soon as it changed the creature's type.
Title: Re: Template Handbook Discussion
Post by: bhu on December 05, 2014, 04:54:21 PM
I'll add those in somewhere as soon as I get the chance!  Thank you!!
Title: Re: Template Handbook Discussion
Post by: unseenmage on December 14, 2014, 01:55:35 AM
What you've called the "Diabolical Half-Fiend (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060630a)" WotC calls the "Customized Half-Fiend Template" on this "More (Half-)Fiendish Variety" page in the Elite Opponents archive: http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/eo/20070209a&pf=true

Thought you might like to know. Also gives you several new pseudo templates if you think they qualify.
Title: Re: Template Handbook Discussion
Post by: bhu on December 14, 2014, 02:28:20 AM
It still says Diabolical Half-Fiend when i click the link.  By Pseudo Templates do you mean the monster examples?
Title: Re: Template Handbook Discussion
Post by: unseenmage on February 24, 2015, 11:53:28 AM
Yes, each separate monster example they have listed is preceded by it's own Customized Half-Fiend template. The way they're presented each one is really a template in it's own right.

It's almost as if the header is Diabolical Half-Fiend while the individual templates are called Customized Half-Fiend (Insert-Base-Fiend-Name-Here).
An oddity to be sure.

For my Every Playable Monster by ECL Lists project it was useful to me to use the Customized Half-Fiend moniker and list them all separately.
But you are right, they do refer to the template(s) by both names.

In retrospect I suppose your use of the header name is more useful for your purposes. Sorry.


While I'm here, here's a link to the Monstrous Vampire from Ghostwalk where it was presented in a preview in the WotC archives:
http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20031225a

Oh and thanks again. Yours is still the best list with the best references I've found. You set one heck of a standard.  :D
Title: Re: Template Handbook Discussion
Post by: bhu on February 25, 2015, 02:07:51 AM
I try my best  :D

With a little luck I'll even be able to work on this again soon
Title: Re: Template Handbook Discussion
Post by: unseenmage on March 04, 2015, 11:50:46 AM
Finished my Every Playable Monster by ECL lists and put them up over at GitP:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?401132-Lists-of-Every-Playable-Monster-by-ECL&p=18888376#post18888376.
It's still a WiP insofar as there are still minor errors all over it.
The plan is to add every playable Pathfinder monster/template next. Should be fun.

Did you ever consider adding Pathfinder material to your lists?
Title: Re: Template Handbook Discussion
Post by: bhu on March 04, 2015, 07:31:08 PM
Never had requests for it, and I own none of their books.  I was able to go into the detail I did because I have all those books or access to them.  If enough people want it I can give it a shot, but I would need a lot of help.
Title: Re: Template Handbook Discussion
Post by: bhu on April 27, 2015, 09:34:59 PM
Does anyone have a working link for the Chosen of Deneir?


http://www.angelfire.com/d20/vaelos/Cadderly_Chosen.html this is all i can find and im not sure if its the same one


Edit: Jordain-Born appears to have gone poof too

Title: Re: Template Handbook Discussion
Post by: unseenmage on April 27, 2015, 10:25:15 PM
Seems I never added Chosen of Deneir to my lists and my link to Jordain-Born appears broken too.

Googling them I kept getting redirected to a page telling me the WotC site was under repairs though so maybe that's it.
Title: Re: Template Handbook Discussion
Post by: Chemus on April 27, 2015, 11:06:18 PM
Seems I never added Chosen of Deneir to my lists and my link to Jordain-Born appears broken too.

Googling them I kept getting redirected to a page telling me the WotC site was under repairs though so maybe that's it.

Try replacing the "www." at the beginning of your link with "archive."; it works sometimes.

[edit]Well the only thing I find is a link to a novel in the 2k2 archives, and it's brokeded. It's pointing to books/fr/deneir[/edit]
Title: Re: Template Handbook Discussion
Post by: bhu on April 27, 2015, 11:10:43 PM
already tried, it doesnt work  :bigeyes
Title: Re: Template Handbook Discussion
Post by: Chemus on April 27, 2015, 11:36:56 PM
All the NOVELS links are down. That seems to be where the Template you're looking for was/is/will be. Maybe.
Title: Re: Template Handbook Discussion
Post by: kitep on April 29, 2015, 03:53:06 PM
Chosen of Deneir (http://www.angelfire.com/d20/vaelos/Cadderly_Chosen.html) - ignore the character, the template is at the end.

Your google-fu was probably off because you had the "i" and the "e" switched.

Prestige In The Realms (http://www.ericlboyd.com/dnd/prestige_classes.html) download the pdf, skip the homebrew stuff, and the Jordain-born template is in there somewhere.


Title: Re: Template Handbook Discussion
Post by: bhu on April 29, 2015, 05:46:19 PM
 :hug
Title: Re: Template Handbook Discussion
Post by: PlzBreakMyCampaign on May 05, 2015, 09:14:18 PM
I understand how much work this is. Any word on getting this into tabular format? It will make the data suddenly very, very useful.
.xls?
Title: Re: Template Handbook Discussion
Post by: bhu on May 05, 2015, 10:14:57 PM
I can give it a shot as soon as I find out why my gpu keeps overheating.
Title: Re: Template Handbook Discussion
Post by: awaken_D_M_golem on May 06, 2015, 04:09:03 PM
Your computer has reached sentience.
And is reacting strongly to Ex Machina zexy pics.
 :D

(http://cdn1.theweek.co.uk/sites/theweek/files/styles/theweek_article_main_image/public/0/39/150123-exmachina_0.png?itok=ZAbw2p09)
Title: Re: Template Handbook Discussion
Post by: PlzBreakMyCampaign on May 12, 2016, 12:48:40 PM
I tried using this thread to simply find "good LA per the stat bonii"

But it's just not arranged well enough. I had to copy-paste the stat bonii templates and then cross-reference and mark out those that didn't appear in the LA ranges I want. I gave up. This is why a .xls would make magic happen!
Title: Re: Template Handbook Discussion
Post by: Kerrus on June 04, 2016, 06:33:27 PM
Or if the forums were on XF, which has tabcode integration to make for easy sorting. But yes, an XLS would be good for people who want to download the master list.
Title: Re: Template Handbook Discussion
Post by: bhu on March 24, 2017, 08:37:07 PM
Does anyone have Kingdoms of Kalamar: Secrets of the Alubelok Coast?  I need to know if it has templates, otherwise I have all the templates added from Kenzer and Co.
Title: Re: Template Handbook Discussion
Post by: bhu on July 13, 2017, 11:06:07 PM
Okay, I found someone with the Alubelok Coast book and there are no new templates, so it's back to editing I go
Title: Re: Template Handbook Discussion
Post by: bhu on July 22, 2017, 10:32:31 PM
I have (slowly) begun work on an excel spreadsheet in my spare time.  This will be a godawfully huge job, so it will be a while.
Title: Re: Template Handbook Discussion
Post by: PlzBreakMyCampaign on July 24, 2017, 02:41:38 PM
 :love :love :love
Title: Re: Template Handbook Discussion
Post by: bhu on September 08, 2017, 02:20:27 AM
I know Excel files can be up to 3 sheets, but is there a max you can put on one sheet?
Title: Re: Template Handbook Discussion
Post by: Nanshork on September 08, 2017, 10:06:07 AM
You can have way more than three sheets. (https://support.office.com/en-us/article/Excel-specifications-and-limits-1672b34d-7043-467e-8e27-269d656771c3#ID0EBABAAA=Excel_2010)
Title: Re: Template Handbook Discussion
Post by: bhu on September 08, 2017, 08:22:28 PM
Ah.  So I should have enough room to do something this colossal.
Title: Re: Template Handbook Discussion
Post by: bhu on February 26, 2018, 10:17:25 PM
Anyone here have experience with Open Office?  I'm using it to mimic Excel, but there's an issue.  When I type "+1" into a cell, it changes to "1".  How do I get it to stop that?
Title: Re: Template Handbook Discussion
Post by: Stratovarius on February 26, 2018, 10:25:08 PM
Anyone here have experience with Open Office?  I'm using it to mimic Excel, but there's an issue.  When I type "+1" into a cell, it changes to "1".  How do I get it to stop that?

Change the cell type to text? That might do it.
Title: Re: Template Handbook Discussion
Post by: bhu on February 28, 2018, 03:37:48 AM
That seems to have done it.  Thanks Strat, I've never used Excel much.
Title: Re: Template Handbook Discussion
Post by: Stratovarius on February 28, 2018, 09:46:10 AM
No worries, I've used it far too much.
Title: Re: Template Handbook Discussion
Post by: PlzBreakMyCampaign on September 28, 2018, 01:09:02 PM
Poke. Checking in for my semi-annual visit. Did the excel sheet get finished? No rush, obviously. I'm as guilty as anyone of just pausing one day and leaving whatever on pause for months at a time.
Title: Re: Template Handbook Discussion
Post by: bhu on October 22, 2018, 08:05:57 PM
My apologies I just noticed this.  Alas no, in the meantime work has undergone something of an Armageddon and I've had my hands full dealing with it.
Title: Re: Template Handbook Discussion
Post by: Adiizo-la on November 20, 2018, 04:52:58 AM

Ok...! good info.

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